Chrisitan Nationalism. Have you heard of it? Who/what are they about?

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  1. tsmog profile image88
    tsmogposted 7 months ago

    The Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI) did a study back in February of 2023 on Christian Nationalism. It is a very deep dive with plenty of graphics to illustrate points.

    A Christian Nation? Understanding the Threat of Christian Nationalism to American Democracy and Culture
    https://www.prri.org/research/a-christi … d-culture/

    Who is PRRI?

    PRRI is a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization dedicated to conducting independent research and driving conversations at the intersection of religion, culture, and politics.

    ** PRRI’s public opinion research explores and illuminates America’s changing cultural, religious, and political landscape.
    ** PRRI promotes these survey findings via the media, events in-person and online, as well as our website and social media channels.
    ** PRRI also regularly supports and convenes academics, writers, and thought leaders working across PRRI’s major areas of research, including through the PRRI Public Fellows program.

    PRRI’s mission is to help journalists, scholars, thought leaders, clergy, and the general public better understand debates on public policy issues and the important cultural and religious dynamics shaping American society and politics.

    This study sample size was 6,212 respondents. Methodology details at the end of the article.

    Three graphics of 20 are . . .

    https://www.prri.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/PRRI-Jan-2023-White-Nationalism-fig_2.png

    https://www.prri.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/PRRI-Jan-2023-White-Nationalism-fig_1.png

    https://www.prri.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/PRRI-Jan-2023-White-Nationalism-fig_18-2048x1605.png

    Did the founders think we should be a Christian nation?

    How much influence does Christian Nationalism have on politics?

    Thoughts, criticisms, or accolades?

    1. abwilliams profile image71
      abwilliamsposted 7 months agoin reply to this

      On June 28, 1787, as the Constitutional Convention was ready to adjourn in dissension, Benjamin Franklin addressed George Washington:
      "How has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly appealing to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the contest with Great Britain, when we were sensible to danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard and they were graciously answered. I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, God governs in the affairs of men, and if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that "except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this."

      There is no such thing as a separation between church and state. Our Founders simply didn't  want us saddled with a corrupted, superstitious church (as was the case with the Church of England)

      Amendment 1: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
      As for the origins of a seperation between church and state, that came from Thomas Jefferson, not in any founding documents, but rather, a personal letter with the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut.
      Our Founders had come from a place where the Church of England had been corrupted by government. According to James Madison, the 1st Amendment was worded to shield the churches from encroaching government, specifically, Congress! Much as the 2nd Amendment was worded to shield, "We the People", from "encroaching government"!!
      As for Thomas Jefferson, he was neither a member of the Constitutional Convention of 1787 nor of the first Congress under the Constitution which passed the Bill of Rights.
      " The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for, among old parchments, or musty records. They are written, as with a sun beam in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the Divinity itself; and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power." Alexander Hamilton, 1775.

      If I don't believe we were Founded as a Christian Nation, "with a firm Reliance on the Protection of Divine Protection", I cannot believe in the authenticity, uniqueness or exceptionalism of the United States of America.

      1. tsmog profile image88
        tsmogposted 7 months agoin reply to this

        Thanks for contributing that perspective, AB.

      2. wilderness profile image91
        wildernessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

        "There is no such thing as a separation between church and state. Our Founders simply didn't  want us saddled with a corrupted, superstitious church (as was the case with the Church of England)"

        This is not actually what went down back then.  The problem was that different states had different beliefs...and most definitely did NOT want and would NOT accept anyone else forcing their beliefs onto them.  The only method of making it all work was to agree that the state could not establish any religion itself. 

        Since then, SCOTUS has decided that the "state" includes states as well as the federal government.  But it was never about deciding that one religion was best and the rest were corrupt and superstitious, for ALL of the people recognized then that if push came to shove it might be THEM that were declared corrupt and superstitious. 

        We seem to have forgotten that, lumping all the sects of Christianity into one, but it is still very true today.  While some pay lip service to "It doesn't matter what church as long as you believe" most do not.  Most demand that you worship THEIR way, with THEIR beliefs.  Problem is that more and more people forget that there are other sects, very strong ones, that are quite capable of running roughshod over anyone they decide they don't like.

      3. wilderness profile image91
        wildernessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

        Are you saying that your religion is the one and only, the one America must follow, or America does not have freedom of religion?  That America is not exceptional, not authentic, if we firmly declare that ALL religions may exist, equally, in our country?

        Because that's how I read your last paragraph.  I trust you didn't mean what I thought I read.

        1. abwilliams profile image71
          abwilliamsposted 7 months agoin reply to this

          No, not at all. I didn't suggest anything of the sort.
          I shared a part of our history, and in that...the Founding Fathers protecting churches, from the government. It was every bit as deliberate, as their protection, via the 2nd Amendment, of the people from overreaching government.

  2. wilderness profile image91
    wildernessposted 7 months ago

    "Did the founders think we should be a Christian nation?"

    They wrote into our Constitution that the state could not establish any religion.  That doesn't sound like they wanted a "Christian nation". 

    When one looks at the death and destruction, the torment and pain, the degradation and intolerance caused by the Abrahamic religions only a fool would want to be in a nation run by either one.  Or any other religion, for that matter; ALL have proven to be the antithesis of what we consider "good".

    1. tsmog profile image88
      tsmogposted 7 months agoin reply to this

      Yup, from my reading here and there the whole point of Article VI saying a religious test cannot be required for public office stands out along with the first amendment. I haven't looked into the states.

      With your observation in the second paragraph, I agree  history shares many stains based on Abrahamic religious endeavors.

  3. Ken Burgess profile image69
    Ken Burgessposted 7 months ago

    Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. --  George Washington

    I think we can see in our current time/age what happens to a society when they stray from a foundation that gives them morals and ethics with which to live by.

    We can also see, if we look to places like London, parts of Minnesota here in America, that something will step in to fill the void.

    In the absence of Christian values, we have had Social Justice/Woke ideology fill the void in much of academia and the atheist sect.

    The large body of humanity, the masses if you must, search for purpose, along with social coherence to belong to... if they are not provided such by family members which develop and nurture them... they will get it from the State, which in turn may be why there seems to be such focus by certain elements within politics to attack the nuclear family.

    The focus is on schools today, this is the battleground for indoctrinating those who have not been given examples and structure through their families to be molded by the State.

    Those graphs would have shown massively different results 50+ years ago.

    The question is, are we better off as a nation and society, having parted ways with our Christian dominated culture?

    Are we happy with our "enlightened" society that believes unhealthy unfit females can do the physically demanding jobs formerly reserved for only the fittest and strongest of men... with children being given puberty blockers and surgeries to remove sex organs... with men who identify as women competing with real women in sports... with race being the determining factor for filling a job, not competency or merit? 

    Are we happy with trillion dollar Investment firms and corporations demanding of our society that we accept DEI and that our speech and politics determine our Social Credit score which in turn will determine if we are allowed access to health, food, and travel resources?

    [Edit/Add]

    Christianity has been intricately intertwined with the formation of Western society.

    Christian ethics focus on developing an ethical character, beginning with obedience to a set of rules and laws seen as divine commands.

    When you take Christianity out of Western society... what are you left with? 
    Why is there a need to follow orders, laws, or for that matter reality?

    Christianity has been a major source of social services like schooling and medical care, inspiration for art, culture and philosophy... we are replacing this with what exactly?  Corrupt government agencies with the likes of Biden, Harris, and those of his Administration deciding what is moral and right, and what is evil and a threat?

    In the absence of a Christian foundation to rebel against and decry as an impediment to individual growth and freedom... we are left with government bureaucrats to determine what is right and wrong... is going to lead to different results than we have seen in the past, in the Soviet Union, North Korea, or China?

    It is to be regretted that the rich and powerful too often bend the acts of government to their own selfish purposes. -- Andrew Jackson

    We can choose to hold as our foundations the Bible, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights.  Or we can choose to ignore them, and allow the rich and powerful to determine our fates and our freedoms.

    1. wilderness profile image91
      wildernessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

      Problem is that religion, very nearly ALL variations on the "god" theme, does not have a good track record.  It is filled with blood and violence, with shame, with intolerance.  It is only because we continually change what God has ordered us to do that is is acceptable at all today.  Neither the Koran nor the Bible would be acceptable as a moral guide (or a source of knowledge) if truly studied and accepted.

      Christianity; the creator of the Crusades - that endless war of looting and killing.  The Inquisition, the Witch Hunts, Prohibition, etc.  It supported slavery (God told His people to take slaves!), it supported a lower class called "women", and it has forever tried to require all the world to follow it's edicts. 

      The Koran, what little I know of it, is worse.

      We do not need such a thing as our "guiding light".

      1. Ken Burgess profile image69
        Ken Burgessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

        And what do you propose to replace it with?

        What we see taking control of our society and nation today?

        Is a weaponized Justice System that targets opposition to the ruling Party an acceptable part of this new foundation?

        Are 72 different sexes, and pedophilia, and Equity quotas instead of merit and competency the way to go?

        If one ideology does not dominate... another will.

        The destruction of a Christian based society will result in something else filling the void.  Something else will become the guiding idol people will be beholden to.

        There is no chance of it being any other way, humanity is incapable of achieving a higher enlightenment at this time... the evidence is all around you.

        1. wilderness profile image91
          wildernessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

          Yes, people WILL follow anyone they think has a lock on what is "good" or "bad". 

          Personally, I'd rather have what we have now than the inquisition.  Or live in fear that my neighbor will declare me a witch so the community will drown me and my property is up for grabs.

          No, the excesses of religion are far worse than even the "woke" crowd with their nonsense.

          1. Ken Burgess profile image69
            Ken Burgessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

            I think you under estimate where the "woke" ideology is leading us to.

            We have not reached the final destination of the "woke" agenda, which is part of the Agenda 2030 and Great Reset goals.

            Only by taking the time to read the many agendas put forth by the UN and WEF (they partnered back in 2019) and understanding the wealthiest and most powerful corporations and financial institutions are backing these efforts (more wealth and power combined than our Nation has) can you get an idea what they are working toward.

            Nonsensical hyperbole about 'inquisitions' regarding Christianity isn't even worth debating... we had a nation that operated under those guidelines for generations without 'inquisitions'.

            What 'woke' is moving us to, is what we see in Canada, where speaking 'wrong think' is now illegal and can land you in jail, where they seize all your assets if you protest what the government is doing... they have only begun to strip Canadians of their freedoms and rights.

            Or what California is doing, where if your child decides it wants a sex change, you as a parent have no right, no say, to stop it.  Where they decide based on the color of your skin, if you deserve 'free money' from the State.

            Christianity, in America, is not likely to lead to tens of millions dying, as the controlling ideology led to in the Communist revolutions in China and Russia.

            Would you rather have a 'faith' that teaches forgiveness, follow the law, and be charitable to your neighbor... or do you prefer the one that doesn't care about that, just that you bend the knee to whatever those in power tell you to bend the knee to?

            Today it is men pretending to be women, tomorrow it will be 5 year olds as sex partners... today it is denying the most qualified for a job if they are white so they can fill their equity quotas, tomorrow it will be firing of people because they are white so they can hire foreign migrants to fill those jobs.

            Looking at what is happening today and thinking this is the worst it will be is very short-sighted.

            A correction in course has to be back toward what this nation was founded upon, and one of the strongest pillars of its foundation, Christianity.

            If that correction is not made now, then the pendulum will swing further "left" to the detriment of us all.

            1. wilderness profile image91
              wildernessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

              "I think you under estimate where the "woke" ideology is leading us to."

              Well, I don't believe it will on the rack in a dungeon of the Inquisition. 

              Yes, it has been many years since we had an inquisition.  Instead we got excuses for slavery, prohibition, blue laws, denial of contraception (from the church, not government) and now denial of abortion.  We get idiots building the Ark Encounter showing Noah caring for dinosaurs.  We get requirements that Christian literature (but ONLY Christian) be taught as true and factual to our children, all without concern of what the law says or whether it is ethical or not to demand others believe and follow "your" religious concepts. 

              Ken, we almost always agree, but not this time.  If the woke crowd gets their way, it will die out in a generation or so.  If the religious zealots get their claws sunk into us it will be a century before it is thrown off.  If then.  Tolerance is not particularly natural to the human animal; desire to control IS.

              Never forget that this country was founded by people running from religious persecution (who then began a persecution of others at least as bad as they had left).
              That's the pillar you want to build the country on.  Remember Galileo and his punishment for seeing (literally seeing) what no one else had ever seen.  Heresy! they called in their religious fervor and ignorance, and it has not changed much.

      2. GA Anderson profile image83
        GA Andersonposted 7 months agoin reply to this

        I do know better than to jump into a religious conversation, but . . .

        I agree with your view of organized religion (per your examples), but have a different view of religious belief (a faith?), a perspective that the two are not the same. I'm with Ken on the need for a foundation (of some sorts) of moral beliefs. To this point, religious belief has been that foundation. Until we find something better, we should fix the one we have.

        GA

        1. wilderness profile image91
          wildernessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

          Where does religious belief come from?  Primarily, the church, meaning organized religion.

          But I disagree that our foundation of moral beliefs comes from religious belief.  The bible is full of awful, immoral, actions by both God's people and God himself.  Same for the history of Christianity.  These have been eradicated from the "religious belief" of most people...meaning that people themselves are building that foundation even if it is couched and hidden within religion.  It is not the ancient writings, it is not the modern church, or anything in between - it is current thinking by the people that is driving the church to change what it says is moral and what is not.

          The people demanded contraception; the church decided God said it was OK.

          The people demanded women preachers; the church decided it was OK with God.

          The people demanded alcohol; the church backed down and it was OK.

          Everywhere we look, the large majority of the old "rights and wrongs" from millenia past are gone...and have been replaced by what the people thought was right and wrong.

          1. Ken Burgess profile image69
            Ken Burgessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

            Props, that one was good.  That one took me down the rabbit hole.

    2. tsmog profile image88
      tsmogposted 7 months agoin reply to this

      "We can choose to hold as our foundations the Bible, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights.  Or we can choose to ignore them, and allow the rich and powerful to determine our fates and our freedoms."

      From a Christian perspective does that mean spiritual warfare is to be exercised, though religion is in decline.

      From a Gallup study back in March of this year it shares religious church attendance has declined. Is that a hint? Interesting enough studies show 85% of Americans own a bible, but don't don't read it.

      Church Attendance Has Declined in Most U.S. Religious Groups by the Gallup organization. (Mar 25, 2024)
      Three in 10 U.S. adults attend religious services regularly, led by Mormons at 67%
      https://news.gallup.com/poll/642548/chu … roups.aspx

      "WASHINGTON, D.C. -- As Americans observe Ramadan and prepare to celebrate Easter and Passover, the percentage of adults who report regularly attending religious services remains low. Three in 10 Americans say they attend religious services every week (21%) or almost every week (9%), while 11% report attending about once a month and 56% seldom (25%) or never (31%) attend."

      They conclude with . . .

      Bottom Line

      On any given weekend, about three in 10 U.S. adults attend religious services, down from 42% two decades ago. Church attendance will likely continue to decline in the future, given younger Americans’ weaker attachments to religion.

      Specifically, more 18- to 29-year-olds, 35%, say they have no religious preference than identify with any specific faith, such as Protestant/nondenominational Christian (32%) or Catholic (19%). Additionally, young adults, both those with and without a religious preference, are much less likely to attend religious services -- 22% attend regularly, eight points below the national average.

      These trends are consistent with other Gallup indicators of religious beliefs and practices, including the importance of religion to Americans and formal membership in churches and other houses of worship.

      1. Ken Burgess profile image69
        Ken Burgessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

        That doesn't change the fact that what America is... the best parts of it... the parts that have made us a more "enlightened" nation is due to its foundations being the Bible, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights.

        If you make the enemy out to be Christianity, and hence also the Bible, where does the authority and foundation for the Bill of Rights and Constitution come from?

        They become just as meaningless, because there is no higher authority, it becomes One Nation, under... Nothing...  

        How can you Hold these Truths to be Self Evident if the most profound truth on which all other truths written in those two documents are reliant on being true... you claim is untrue?

        And if all laws are based on that which is found in the Constitution, then NO laws are applicable, and NO authority has any authority to enforce them... because the Constitution holds no validity.

        So... the State becoming the authority based on its power of force can interpret for itself what is law, what is truth, what is fact.

        The State can then use the malleability of the Law to suit its whims, heck, it can use the appendages of the Law (IE - FBI, CIA) to create that reality.

        And here we are...

        America once again, in a battle, at its roots what is America?

        It was birthed in Revolution against many of the things we see emanating from our government today... overreach, overtaxation, considering us more like property and less like The People who are supposed to be in control of our fates and our government.

        1. tsmog profile image88
          tsmogposted 7 months agoin reply to this

          Very eloquently put. Yes, "under what"? But, all of that doesn't explain the decline in religious attendance. Remember, Ken, that doesn't speak to belief in God.

          From another Gallup poll we discover in 2022 . . .

          "Most recently, Gallup found 81% of Americans expressing belief when asked the simple question, "Do you believe in God?" This was down from 87% in 2017 and a record low for this question first asked in 1944, when 96% believed. It reached a high of 98% in the 1950s and 1960s."

          Though the majority of respondents believe in God, that belief is in decline. How does that relate to 'Under what'?

          How Many Americans Believe in God? (June 24, 2022)
          https://news.gallup.com/poll/268205/ame … e-god.aspx

          Question: If 81% have belief in God why only 30% formally worship God? That, perhaps, leads back to the following graphic and the questions asked. I mean that in the sense does the Christian Right have the right idea to right America?

          https://www.prri.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/PRRI-Jan-2023-White-Nationalism-fig_1.png

          For insight next is the demographics for the Study on the Christian Right.

          https://www.prri.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/PRRI-Jan-2023-White-Nationalism-fig_22-608x1536.png

  4. tsmog profile image88
    tsmogposted 7 months ago

    Curiosity piqued with having a moral foundation based on religion/God. Discovery with a Pew Research study shares;

    Many people in U.S., other advanced economies say it’s not necessary to believe in God to be moral by Pew Research (Apr 20, 2023)

    "Most Americans say it’s not necessary to believe in God in order to be moral and have good values, according to a spring 2022 Pew Research Center survey. About two-thirds of Americans say this, while about a third say belief in God is an essential component of morality (65% vs. 34%)."

    One would presume a religion has some kind of deity.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2023/04/sr_2023.04.18_faith_1.png

    As an aside, would one have to know about religious morals in able to say God is not required. Just playing, is it an oxymoron? Most likely that doesn't make sense.

    1. GA Anderson profile image83
      GA Andersonposted 7 months agoin reply to this

      I would say that a God isn't required, but a faith in something greater than self is. Would Creationists or Intelligent Design believers fit that mold—a non-diety faith in something greater than us?

      GA

      1. tsmog profile image88
        tsmogposted 7 months agoin reply to this

        That is very intriguing question and a head scratcher. My first thought is what civilization did not have a deity of some form? I just peeked arriving with discovery . . .

        "the Gupta Empire and other civilizations in ancient India mostly influenced by classical nontheistic schools of Hinduism were atheistic, some for their entire existence."

        Still curious I poked about some more arriving with an interesting article . . .

        The Origins of Human Morality by Scientific American (Sept 1, 2018)
        How we learned to put our fate in one another’s hands
        https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … -morality/

        "If evolution is about survival of the fittest, how did humans ever become moral creatures? If evolution is each individual maximizing their own fitness, how did humans come to feel that they really ought to help others and be fair to them?

        There have traditionally been two answers to such questions. First, it makes sense for individuals to help their kin, with whom they share genes, a process known as inclusive fitness. Second, situations of reciprocity can arise in which I scratch your back and you scratch mine and we both benefit in the long run."

        A little further it states . . .

        "Recently a new approach to looking at the problem of morality has come to the fore. The key insight is a recognition that individuals who live in a social group in which everyone depends on everyone else for their survival and well-being operate with a specific kind of logic. In this logic of interdependence, as we may call it, if I depend on you, then it is in my interest to help ensure your well-being. More generally, if we all depend on one another, then we must all take care of one another."

        A somewhat lengthy read, yet worth a skim to catch the infographics with their spiel.

        Going along with the theme of that article, thanks for the inspiration to pursue the topic. smile

        1. wilderness profile image91
          wildernessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

          The evolutionary question has always puzzled me.  Not about finding an answer, but why it needs asked at all!

          Homo Sapiens is a herd animal, like buffalo, wolves or reindeer.  We are not similar to tigers, sharks and bears that spend the vast majority of their lives alone (or with infants, as required for their survival).  As such it seems beyond obvious that getting along and helping to ensure the survival of others is necessary to surviving ourselves.

          1. Ken Burgess profile image69
            Ken Burgessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

            And all that said... again, props to you for nailing it... its all good for you, and me, and anyone else who can rationalize it...

            You still have at least a third of the population BELIEVING in a God... and they aren't going to rationalize it away.

            So we get back to WHY it needs to be based on the Bible, the Bill of Rights, and the Constitution.

            Until you have something better that can unite everyone in that BELIEF.

            1. wilderness profile image91
              wildernessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

              Worldwide, it is probably a third or so that believe in a god.  But which god, and what does that god tell us to do, and how to live?  What does it tell us to force others to do.  I dare say Muslims will not agree with much you have to offer...

              Everywhere we go there are different answers.  Some from different gods, but thousands upon thousands of different answers from the same Abrahamic god, all depending on just who you ask.

              Doesn't that say something about where those answers are coming from?  Certainly not the bible, for the old time morals espoused there are long gone.  No, it comes from society, from inside the people of that specific society, and it will be different for the next society down the road.

              You can base our morals on the Constitution, but that isn't much of an answer either.  Is it immoral to marry your sister or mother - I don't believe the Constitution address that.  Plus, the Constitution has been changed many times over the years, again indicating that it is the people that are the creators of morality.  Same for the Bill of Rights.  Perhaps you can go back to the Magna Carta, but I doubt that is a a reasonable choice, either.

              Instead, how about a BELIEF that sleeping with your sister is just "wrong", and needs nothing else in the way of support?  Deep down, that's what we have anyway, so why not just admit it and let that 1/3 of the population go it's own way?  For the most part we agree (in a limited geographical area, anyway) in most cases.  Lots of disagreement, though - is it moral to have an abortion?  To drink Alcohol?  To use contraception?  To skip tithing?  To walk about naked? 

              And we still get along, for the most part.  So...you keep your morals, I'll keep mine and religion does not need to flow from you to me or me to you.  The majority will decide the big factors (abortion, murder, nudity, etc.), and the little ones will be a private matter (tithing, alcohol, etc.).  And no one needs to be unwittingly subjected to masses of moral codes from an unproven ET in the sky.

              1. Ken Burgess profile image69
                Ken Burgessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                Again, the problem comes not from your philosophy or perspective...

                The problem comes in establishing authority, law and order...

                Our Society is fragmented:

                30% don't believe in a god, and they believe god-like authority should reside in the government/Party... a Party that cannot define what a woman is, but can determine there are 72 different sexes that we must ALL learn to recognize and address properly... a Party/government that believe escalating a war with the nation that has the world's largest nuclear arsenal is a good thing... a Party that believes bringing in tens of millions of migrants to take American jobs serves the interests of its citizens... etc. etc.

                Another 30% believe in a Judeo/Christian god, as an absolute fact, this fact has been handed down for thousands of years, this Nation was founded on those beliefs and morals being SELF EVIDENT

                The remaining 40% may believe in some other faith, or may simply believe there is a god, just not one belonging to any faith, and some people are just good hearted but no longer believe in a faith... nor have they had to replace faith with a Party ideology.

                We were able to maintain the Western/American culture and its laws and norms because it had always been a predominantly Christian society that shared common laws and morals... like the Ten Commandments.

                How can we maintain law and order, a belief in that authority... if you strip away Divine Authority?

                How are you going to get 30 to 50% of your population to accept your laws when those laws fly in the face of what their Faith, their Divine Authority, the Bible tells them to be truth?

                You have to govern HALF the country that does not believe as you do Wilderness, or you have to attempt to eradicate them, which is where the rhetoric of the Biden Administration has stirred its most devout followers into thinking is justified.

                Do you see what I am saying?

                1. wilderness profile image91
                  wildernessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                  How can we maintain law and order if we strip away Divine Authority?

                  Ask the 70% that do not accept the Judeo/Christian belief system.  Don't ask those that believe in something they can neither prove nor even offer evidence for: ask the 70% that is left.

                  You, on the other hand, are saying that the unsupported belief of that 30% is expected to influence the 70% that that unsupported belief is Truth with a capital T. 

                  It doesn't work, and yet the answer is not to eradicate the 70%.  If we can do that, can we not expect the 30% to live within the beliefs of the 70%?

                  For me personally, I am sick and tired of hearing that God says this and God says that when I (and everyone honest with themselves) knows that no god has said anything at all.  All that is "heard" is that still small voice (not so small in some egos lol) inside telling them how to behave.  I have asked several how they tell the difference between their conscience and God speaking; the answer is "I just know".  Hogwash!

                  You have the right to believe what you believe.  You do NOT have the right to demand that I believe the same.  And yet far too many "believers" forget that second sentence, believing that they not only have the right to force me to their belief but the duty to do so.  The fine words of "freedom of religion" mean nothing to them and I'm sorry, but that is wrong  It is morally wrong, it is ethically wrong and it is (in this country) legally wrong.

                  1. Ken Burgess profile image69
                    Ken Burgessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

                    Yeah... you don't get what I am saying.

                    You can't govern 30% to (as those that believe in a god just not THE Christian god... IE... Jews ... Muslims.) 60% of the populace by telling them their god isn't real and you are going to base your laws and governance on your belief that god doesn't exist and Bible is worthless.

                    Do you understand the point I am trying to make?

                    Do you see why the system in place MUST remain in place... because you have NOTHING better to offer to put in its place... and you have no way of convincing the other half of the populace that believes in a god that your way is right.

                    What you are suggesting is not Liberty and Freedom of Religion, what you are suggesting is authoritarianism which can only be enforced on others through force... not law... not the Constitution... you have invalidated the tools of Law an Order by denying we are One Nation Under God.

          2. tsmog profile image88
            tsmogposted 7 months agoin reply to this

            From past experience in these forums your knowledge on evolution far exceeds mine. So, I'll take your word for it.

        2. Ken Burgess profile image69
          Ken Burgessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

          That's a reach... at best... a flimsy one at that "origins of human morality'.

          What makes you care for people, or do a kind deed, when there is no 'back scratching' that can come from it?

          What makes you feel empathy?  With being able to identify with another and recognize yourself in them?

          And I'm not arguing the religion aspect here... but morals are the foundation for our laws, especially if you are disregarding Faith.

          Why isn't it OK for an adult male to sleep with an infant... why isn't it OK to kill your wife when she annoys you... morals??? 

          In fact, what does wife mean? Why should I be held accountable to pay my wife alimony?

          1. tsmog profile image88
            tsmogposted 7 months agoin reply to this

            Okay . . .

      2. wilderness profile image91
        wildernessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

        Why is an unproven belief in anything required to create a good set of morals?  What does it add?  The thoughts, the creation of that code, is coming from within and not without, so why would such a belief be of any value whatsoever?

        1. Ken Burgess profile image69
          Ken Burgessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

          Damn, two in a row.  Solid.

        2. GA Anderson profile image83
          GA Andersonposted 7 months agoin reply to this

          Yep, I knew better . . .

          It was just a thought train, not the explanation. We seem to demand explanations for everything, and when we can't find one, we'll make one up until our 'why' is satisfied.

          From morals to physical reality, we demand to know the whys. Why is there thunder and lightning? Why shouldn't I kill that man so I can have his woman? There was a time in our development when the answer to both questions needed to be 'made up.'

          Science began giving us the answers to our physical world 'whys' —replacing the deity ones, changing our foundation of understanding. What is replacing the 'deity' answers of our moral foundation—the one many conservatives believe is being dismantled?

          I dunno, I just had a thought.

          GA

          1. wilderness profile image91
            wildernessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

            Interestingly, I had that same conversation with a good friend recently, and said the same thing.  We don't know, we want to know, so we make up an answer and declare that it is true and real.

            Doesn't work for me.  I'm woefully ignorant in a WIDE range of subjects...and simply accept that.  I try very hard NOT to make up an answer just to have one. 

            But I also recognize that many disagree, and do not find it "making up" answers at all; their brand of "logic" declares that made up answer correct because there is nothing else.  My friend was more than a little insulted with the idea so our conversation did not go for much longer, but that's what it boiled down to; I could not give an answer that satisfied her and that she could accept as true, so there was nothing left but her imagination (although she certainly didn't put it that way!)

    2. wilderness profile image91
      wildernessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

      Your bar graph points out what is very important to recognize; the only groups of people that find we cannot create our own moral values (good ones) are the ones that also say it requires a God (50% or thereabouts).  Every other group disagrees with that.

      1. tsmog profile image88
        tsmogposted 7 months agoin reply to this

        Interesting observation. Noted.

  5. Ken Burgess profile image69
    Ken Burgessposted 7 months ago

    An absolute must watch for the debate on morals, and the general discourse of late
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1ytxx_2s7k

    1. wilderness profile image91
      wildernessposted 7 months agoin reply to this

      I liked it.  We see, particularly these last few years, exactly what is being discussed, and it is growing.

  6. Venkatachari M profile image87
    Venkatachari Mposted 7 months ago

    I admire AB's comments/opinions and agree with him. Our politicians should have some fear of God. Otherwise, there could be chaos.

  7. Venkatachari M profile image87
    Venkatachari Mposted 7 months ago

    But, where is the consent of the governed? Are our leaders acting according to the wishes of the people? No. They are listening to their own selfish goals and building up power & wealth. So, where is the will of the people? We vote only once when the candidates are making some beautiful promises to do this and that. When got elected, they never acted upon those promises.

    1. Ken Burgess profile image69
      Ken Burgessposted 6 months agoin reply to this

      Correct.

      That is the point I am making. 

      Those that lead our nation are not answering to the citizens of America, they answer to the donor class, the lobbyists, and do not reflect the wants or needs of The People.

      To the point where they spend Trillions per year now that we don't have, on wars and wasteful programs that are of no benefit to The People.

      At what point is the line crossed, when they are doing more harm than good for the citizens of the nation they are supposed to be serving?

      1. wilderness profile image91
        wildernessposted 6 months agoin reply to this

        "At what point is the line crossed, when they are doing more harm than good for the citizens of the nation they are supposed to be serving?"

        How about when they decide that over half our people, every other person you pass on the sidewalk, is too disabled physically or mentally to support themselves and must live off the charity of politicians?

        1. Ken Burgess profile image69
          Ken Burgessposted 6 months agoin reply to this

          So in other words, we are already there.

          Especially when it seems like half our DC politicians believe it is our nation's responsibility to take in every person in the world that wants to come here and provide them with housing and social services at our expense... our debt... which is cause for our inflation and increasing interest rates to combat the inflation caused by their incessant spending/creating of dollars that we do not have.

          The "Under God' issue is too complex to handle at this juncture of civilization/social-evolution... especially when it is being handled by a very corrupt government that responds to it citizens' will less than it ever has in its history.

          1. abwilliams profile image71
            abwilliamsposted 6 months agoin reply to this

            Amen and hear, hear Ken!
            I just watched the following video, it's a little long, but so worth the watch! Tucker touches on many of the topics, we all are back and forth on, here in the political forums. Just seems an apropos time to share, for those interested:

            https://www.facebook.com/share/v/fqUff1 … tid=TrneLp

 
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