Who's the biggest problem in the Debt Ceiling Crisis?

1. 72

   crazyhorsesghostposted 11 years ago

   
   
   No we didn't fall off the cliff but the Debt Ceiling Crisis is still looming out there and will have to be dealt with sooner rather than later.
   
   I'll bet you this is waking up many politicians including the President in the middle of the night. What do you think?
   
   Who do you blame for the Debt Ceiling Crisis
   
   1. The GOP ( Republican Party )
   2. President Obama
   3. The Democrats
   
   
   Please post your comments and let us know what you think.
   
   I say that we are going to have to do some serious changes to ever save America. Where do you see this going.

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   1. 68

      Cody Hodge5posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Well, Obama deserves some criticism for trying to take complete authority over the debt ceiling increases...
      
      On the other hand, he wouldn't have had to do that if House Republicans weren't just on record saying that they would seriously consider letting the government default on its debt.
      
      I just hope that this time when our credit rating gets cut again that Obama has no qualms pointing the finger squarely at the GOP and hopefully the American public will pound them at the ballot box in 2014 for it.

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         whoisitposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         “The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. government can’t pay its own bills. ... I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit.”
         
         Barrack Obama March 16, 2006
         
         And you helped reelect this failure.

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         1. 68

            Cody Hodge5posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Good one

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            1. 76

               psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               The last one to balance a budget was Reagan--2 from each side since then, so this is a non-party-specific failing.

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                  whoisitposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  This would be another example of Obama hypocrisy. Keeping score yet?

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                  1. 76

                     psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     I don't think you know what that word means. Bush, Bush 2, Clinton and Obama all blew the budget.  If anything that is more hypocritical for fiscal conservatives than tax-and-spend liberals.  In both cases it shows less understanding of economics than that demonstrated by most 7-year-olds who get pocket money.  It's pathetic and inexcusable.
                     
                     A single example would be that none of these four budgeted for natural disasters.  Disaster funding comes straight out of the deficit.  Ridiculous.

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   2. 58

      The0NatureBoyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      The biggest problem in the Debt Ceiling Crisis is the 1% of the 1% called The Beast who are intent on controlling the world and enslaving man-in-mass who have bought all fractions of the US Government and most of We The People are so in love with The American Dream wed are not willing to take the authority the Constitution has provided us with to stop them because of our love of goods.   With that information, it is We The People for not taking our constitutional responsibility and impeaching the Administrators, Judicial and Legislation branches of government for Treason.

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   3. 70

      rhamsonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      All of the slimebags are to blame. Until each and everyone of the pussbags can find some leverage in the deal, the deal won't happen.
      
      Term Limits, publicly financed campaigns and lobby reform. Until this happens none of the scumballs will change a thing.

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      1. 58

         The0NatureBoyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         The constitution has given the citizens the right to impeach anyone not upholding their oath of office but we will not band together to eliminate those you are calling those names, which you should be calling us for not doing what the constitution has afforded to We The People.

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            rhamsonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Were it just that simple this whole farce of self government would be a complete success. The founding fathers were very wary of the congress falling into the hands of lawyers yet that is exactly what has happened! It is almost more of a prerequisite to enter congress as you have to know what is legal and what is provable. Yes "WE THE PEOPLE" are ultimately responsible for the government we elect but the process is broken due to the caretakers that scheme and deny us the openness and honesty which is muddied by the slimebags deception. Coupled with a less than responsible press we are only led by inuendo and pop opinions that make the deception complete. Yes I agree with you for the most part but I don't feel as though I am a slimeball for voting for the only choices allowed by the broken two party system. That is why I say:
            
            Term limits, publicly financed campaigns and lobby reform are our only hope.

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               The0NatureBoyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               It has happened that congress is in the hands of lawyers because We The People don't even know We The People are to Politically Draft presidents and vices {Amendment 12 as amended by 24}, representatives {Article 1 section 2, paragraph 1} and senators {Amendment 17}.  So, if you agree with me you would get into the constitution and see how congress and presidents are unconstitutionally elected and seek their impeachment as I have with http://signon.org/sign/eliminate-capita … by=4033819

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               1. 70

                  rhamsonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I really think the petition is a good idea but absolutely impossible to execute as it depends on congress to cooperate with its' tenents. The pussballs are never going to let such a thing take place on the floor and upset their control over the process. I have to admit that no one will get behind my proposal of term limits, publicly financed campaign or lobby reform because that is at the heart of their control over the system. Let's face it we have elected ourselves into a mob mentality government. They have bastardized the majority rules intent into absolutely controlled majority rules. They try to cement their status by gerrymandering the voting districts (both parties I might add) to assure election results and secure power. I am sorry to say the whole system is hopeless and unless there is an awakening of the careless electorate there can never be anything that will change it.

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                  1. 58

                     The0NatureBoyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Should I get the presidency, as the petition suggest of Obama do, I will reduce all term limits to the president's maximum, two 4-year-terms for senators and 4 tow-year-terms for representatives.  Parties will also  be eliminated, no man will be able to name themselves as candidates, no conventions, nor campaigning and, therefore, no campaign financing. 
                     
                     I Definitely have plans for getting money out of government, a flat tax until the debt is paid off, not just down, our military only on US soil {no star on Old Glory} no US defense with its budget cut in half, disband Homeland Security like Hitler used in Germany and so much more.

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                        rhamsonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        I like a lot of what you say but I am not so naive as to believe there is enough support from the apathetic electorate that will get behind it and vote for it. A Constitutional Convention has been called for by every state except Hawaii and the total has been estimated at over 700. These attempts and denials are proof that the scum in Washington are dead set against any change whatsoever. I wish you well and applaud your fervor but you are pissing up a rope if you think you can work through the corrupt system we have gravitated to and expect the electorate to do any more than they have to enact any real change.

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                        1. 58

                           The0NatureBoyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           There's only one way to find out, get enough signatures, 100 thousand or more , and see what that brings to their table.  That would really show them we mean business, but so long as people only read it and say it's not me we will never know. 
                           
                           It doesn't really depend on them but us presenting the Constitution to them as I have.  If only 20 people were to write similar petitions on the White House's online petition site the president is required to ensure the laws are faithfully executed {Article 2, section 3} and take action.  I filed one in late 2011 or early 2012 but they blocked it and wouldn't allow anyone to sign it.  A few more like that and he'll take notice that We The People means business.

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                              rhamsonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                              They still pick and choose their bills and would sweep it under the rug in a nano second. Twenty signatures is nothing to these slimebags.

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                                 The0NatureBoyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                 ]b]We'll only know when we get enough signatures.[/b]

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   4. 71

      Don Fairchildposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Regarding who is at fault maybe the list should be thus:
      
      - A majority of citizens who now think that debt is ok. "Head in sand syndrome"
      - A majority of citizens who refuse to punish politicians for corruption. 
      - A fifty fifty split of citizens pointing their accusation fingers at the other half. "Its not my fault syndrome"
      
      This brings to mind a thought, what happens to Democracy when more than 50% of the population can't make correct decisions?

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   5. 76

      Shyron E Shenkoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      The GOP (Greedy Old Politicians,) they are the ones who want to destroy Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and they want total control; the same ones who say if it is not their way then NOTHING gets done; The same ones who want to destroy our education system, break teachers, fire fighters, policeman; the same ones who want to destroy OUR President. The same ones who are talking impeachment.

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2. 61

   deeman63posted 11 years ago

   I would place more blame on the house republicans, espeically on the the tea party house memebers than the predisent.  During the last debt celing they created the fiscal cliff when there was a shot that a deal clould have been worked out. I belive that both parties republican and democrat, put off making a deal until the election of 2012. Which Is one reason I think we are at such a divisive period of time in our country. It seems our elected public employees are in constant campaign mode.  Instead of working on the problems in a constructive, reasonable, debate filled, fact filled, way they seem to be "letting it ride" on the next election. Where winner takes all, and it's done thier way. The problem is the republicans think they were the winners when they they lost. The republicans won the house( actually loosing some of thier lead) and they interpret that as a mandate. The only "mandate" our elected politcal employees have is to work together and find a resonable and well thought out solution to the problems we face instead of jumping crisis to crisis. The republicans are on the ropes and need to make the effort to get the debt celing raised then begin on a long well thought out bipartisan plan to reduce our national debt, simpson bowles anyone.

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3. 60

   GNelsonposted 11 years ago

   The GOP is the problem.  They are making a bad situation worse.  Do you stop paying your bills to solve a debt problem at home?

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   1. 0

      JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      You made $64,881 last year. You bought $103,686 worth of stuff, so you had to put $38,804 onto a credit card.
      
      This year, you made $69,103, and you want to buy $108,686 worth of stuff, so you want to open another credit card to put the $38,987 of new debt on it?
      
      That's what we're looking at. You really think the solution is to go another $38,987 into debt?
      
      Do you stop paying for expensive salon trips, movie outings, Gucci handbags, etc... when you have a debt problem?

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      1. 68

         Cody Hodge5posted 11 years agoin reply to this

         It depends....
         
         If the interest rate on the credit card is low and you have access to almost unlimited credit, you won't run into problems. This is especially true when you have an almost unlimited amount of time to repay that debt combined with a variety of ways to make/create extra sources of revenue.
         
         You may be making $64,881 this year, but in good times, say you make $300,000 and you can afford to pay off 10 years worth of debt in one year. Do you stop spending in the short-term if you know you can make it up at some point?

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            JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Interest won't stay low. It's not fixed.
            
            And we are not going to magically jump up to the equivalent of $300,000. We would have to go from pulling in 2.1 trillion to 9.8 trillion. Do you really think that's going to happen?
            
            When are we going to be able to pay off 10 years worth of debt in one year? What projection gives you any indication that we will have a balanced budget, let alone a budget with a $10 TRILLION dollar surplus?

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            1. 68

               Cody Hodge5posted 11 years agoin reply to this

               You were making a point that if a person spends more than they make, that eventually cuts will have to be made.
               
               All I'm saying is that the government has access to more revenue than an average person does. The government also faces lower interest rates, higher amounts of credit and an ability to increase their income in future years.
               
               Its not even close to an apples-to-apples comparison.
               
               As for the $300,000 scenario, I wasn't being literal with percentages. However, the point still stands. The government at some point will have increased tax revenues when the economy improves. Therefore, there will then be money to start paying down the debt incurred today.

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                  innersmiffposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Your point is correct when you say that the government has access to more revenue than the average person, as its revenue confiscated by force and it can artificially change interest rates, but all this changes is the quantity of money, the principles are still the same. It simply extends the period in which the debtor government can get away with it, and as its borrowing, spending and printing in fact inhibits economic growth, we have to conclude that the debt is mathematically unpayable and default is the only option. We can either take the depression now, allow the market to re-allocate resources into sustainable ventures, and move forward in the long-term, or keep fooling ourselves by printing more money and getting into more debt, which will result in a catastrophic crash that we might not survive.

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                  JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  You think we will balance our budget just with economic growth?
                  
                  Even if the tax base grew 5% every year(That has only ever happened under bubbles, and we all know what happens when we have large bubbles for long periods of time), and even if government spending only increased by 3% every year(that hasn't happened in any recent time), it would take a quarter of a century to balance the budget(ignoring interest rate increases that would likely come with such growth, and ignoring the added interest payments associated with the additional $20 Trillion in debt we would incur under that growth model.).
                  
                  My point was that you don't fix a debt problem by going deeper into debt. We had more debt per GDP than this before, and know how we fixed it? We drastically cut spending. Something like 30% of GDP cut in a single year. It hurt, but America came out stronger for it.

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                     Cody Hodge5posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Interesting.....when was this drastic cut in spending?

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                        JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        We did it in 1920 and 1944. It hurts in the short term, but it keeps the country sustainable. If we keep going like this, we're going to cross a tipping point that will ruin the country.

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                           Cody Hodge5posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           I get the point that you are trying to make, but I think there were other forces at play during those times such as the end of WWI and the almost end of WWII. It would have been almost impossible not to have cut spending at that time.
                           
                           Also, even if WWI hadn't ended around that time, spending would have been cut anyway because the economy was booming in the 20's.

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                              JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                              The point is, the nation can survive draconian spending cuts.
                              
                              It can't survive the kind of debt we are piling on ourselves. Let's say we balance the budget in 20 years, and we have $30 trillion in debt by then. Let's also say that things are looking up, and interest rates are up. If we had to pay 4% interest on that debt, it would be over $1 trillion, every year, in interest alone.
                              
                              Doesn't that scare you? Compound interest is a scary thing, we're on the slope, where we can climb back up right now. In a few years, we probably won't be able to climb out without a severe depression, at the very best.

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                                 Ralph Deedsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                 Draconian spending cuts at this time would likely put the country back into a recession.
                                 
                                 Besides, the deficit has been dwindling according to Paul Krugman today:
                                 
                                 " It’s true that right now we have a large federal budget deficit. But that deficit is mainly the result of a depressed economy — and you’re actually supposed to run deficits in a depressed economy to help support overall demand. The deficit will come down as the economy recovers: Revenue will rise while some categories of spending, such as unemployment benefits, will fall. Indeed, that’s already happening. (And similar things are happening at the state and local levels — for example, California appears to be back in budget surplus.)
                                 
                                 "Still, will economic recovery be enough to stabilize the fiscal outlook? The answer is, pretty much...." More here
                                 
                                 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/18/opini … ef=opinion

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                                    innersmiffposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                    Is this the same Paul Krugman that recommended the Fed create a housing bubble after the dotcom bust?

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                        Shyron E Shenkoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        Spending?  Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid is what the GOP wants to cut. Do you know where the money comes from for these three programs?
                        FICA tax every worker pays. If they cut these three programs, will workers still have to pay FICA tax? And who would the people blame? Not the GOP (Greedy Old Politicians.) The people would blame the President and next would elect someone from the GOP/TEA Party express.

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         2. 68

            innersmiffposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            This is the great fallacy - why would we assume that the government has the right to provide unlimited credit when nobody else in real life has that right? Moreover, how is it even possible?
            
            It's not, but it is the government and the Federal Reserve's job to provide the illusion that it is.

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               JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               It's not... the government can't borrow unlimited money. It's based on trust, and the less trust people have, the more interest we have to offer with our debt.
               
               But in reality, the American people don't care, or think it's a good thing, so it keeps happening. We, as a people, can basically force any change we want through our legislators. We just have to speak up. That doesn't happen very often though.

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4. 58

   A Driveby Quipperposted 11 years ago

   We went over the cliff a few years back when Bush gave away the treasury to private sector financial institutions to keep their insidious investment schemes from collapsing. For the coup de gras, Geithner, the FDIC, FED and SEC gave favored "banks" all of the cash and assets that they confiscated from regional banks with no remuneration for the stockholders. It has been the biggest bank heist in the history of the universe, and they are getting away with it cold.
   
   Meanwhile, our public servants are not focused on the fraud, waste and abuse that is undermining our stability. Hang on to your gun, you will need it to protect your family.

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   1. 77

      Castlepalomaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Don't worry America, China will not allow you to go bankrupted, because they need you to buy their products.

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         JaxsonRaineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         China only owns a small percentage. 6-8%

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            Castlepalomaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Wiki also says
            2011 the largest single holder of U.S. government debt was China, with 26 percent of all foreign-held U.S. Treasury securities
            
            About a 100 million baby boomers are going to want to collect their pensions in North America soon. Anything like China can tip the scales at that point. America will not lead in anything, except guns by 2025

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            1. 61

               deeman63posted 11 years agoin reply to this

               I think China is the largest foreign holder of debt  at 26 % of total debt. according to factcheck.org article. May hae changed some article is alittle dated.   
               http://www.factcheck.org/2011/06/durbins-debt-problem/

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      Moderndayslaveposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      A Driveby Quipper nails it and no one pays attention, This is why this country is so screwed.

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5. 72

   crazyhorsesghostposted 11 years ago

   I think we have a great discussion going here. I hope we have more great posts like we have so far. Thanks everyone.

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6. 78

   bn9900posted 11 years ago

   Obama and the Democrats: They stop every meaningful bill. They just want to Tax and Spend, they don't care about anyone.

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      Shyron E Shenkoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      LOL you are in reverse!!!

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         The0NatureBoyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I agree with you, Shyon.

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7. 55

   Education Answerposted 11 years ago

   Both sides overspend and have done so for generations upon generations. 
   
   The borrow-and-spend democrats are more to blame.

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   bn9900posted 11 years ago

   Anyone who barrows and spends, and tht is the democrats plain and simple.

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