After watching, with dismay, the hateful rhetoric by those against Obama I hoped we would rise above; at some point. I was wrong.
Now with a new president, from a different party, we see the opposing side finding new lows of civility. Everything from Michele Wolf at the roast, cattily insulting another human being in the guise of humor to mobs formed for the express purpose of attempting to deny those on the right basic freedoms.
Sour grapes, in both instances, in my opinion.
What will the next presidency bring? If it's a Democrat who wins office I see more grumbling and false accusations wildly contested. A continued degradation of civil society. If a Republican, I see civil war on the horizon. Whatever happens, it will be the result of many finding an ever more subterranean common denominator.
Is there any hope for maturity and common sense to come back to the American political culture?
“A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot.” Robert Heinlein
Wow. Good quote. Chinks away another piece of the tiny bit of hope I was holding onto.
Interesting, what do you mean by this?
"A continued degradation of civil society. ( If a Democrat wins) If a Republican, I see civil war on the horizon. Whatever happens, it will be the result of many finding an ever more subterranean common denominator."
It means that we are continually getting worse. We have no concern for those whose ideas differ from our own. And, yes, only a person unwilling to look at where the civil unrest comes from and what it's objective is would not see the dark possibilities of escalation.
Both and all, are at fault. We are allowing ourselves to tear this nation apart out of some callous entitled sense of self worth; while (at best) marginalizing the value of fellow citizens.
Why not civil war if the democrat wins or continued degradation of society if the GOP wins.
Do your projected outcomes have a specific meaning or is it just a general statement for the decline of society in general?
'Liberals' and 'conservatives' have become like social groups in their own right. People perceive criticism of their political view as an attack on who they are. That triggers the same intensity of response as someone who's cultural survival (often called their 'way of life') is threatened. This leads to a tendency to be less critical of bad behaviour when the person responsible shares the same political views.
So some evangelical Christians have nothing to say, or actively support, public officials who fail to uphold the law in the name of 'religious freedom' etc, but would very quickly condemn someone on the opposite 'side' for not following the rule of law. Likewise some social justice activists turn a blind eye, or fail to condemn, violence committed in the name of social equality, but would be quick to condemn such violence if it were committed in the name of an opposing political view.
These bad behaviours are tolerated in the name of: 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'.
Essentially it's a form of tribalism.
Tribalism - True . Yet I know very well which tribe it is that is the right one to survive this extended war on political common sense . The new left has abandoned almost all of it's own traditions in ideology and in doing so the very heart of "patriotism "The old school democrat may very well be dead , hijacked by the new alt left which alternates somewhere between the ideals of Alinsky and the whims of the ill informed "idealisms " , for lack of a more fitting term , of eighteen year old government acquired entitlement's where anything for free is the new political norm , The entire Bernie Sanders promised package.
-minimum guaranteed incomes
-urban dwelling utopian's
Will their party swing back toward a "normal" left ? No , not likely . as this new age voter group dictates the coming vote directions into the future of party legislation , Traditional politics no 'burn it down "- the new political mentality of the democrat . Micheal Moore just wished Karl Marx a happy 200th birthday celebrating the hero of the ideology of "feel the burn " ."What next " ? Simply put ; embrace marxism , It fits like a glove .
Of course it is a form of tribalism. I'm interested in all of us finding it within ourselves to bridge that gap. We aren't brawling in the streets. So that is a plus.
Don't you mean the right isn't brawling in the streets ? The left has more than proved it's willingness to "burn it all down " , the left will never sit across the table from the others and dialog with any maturity . So no I don't ever see a hand shake happening between the two parties perhaps for decades to come .
You know what? I think all it would take would be two good statespersons to begin the change. Two leaders, one from each party. It isn't impossible.
Compromise essentially means" giving something up" to the new liberal , as if sitting down with a pouting eight year old at Christmas time and asking for compromise on the outrageous wish list of someone who just has no clue about the finances of the house , the two party's are polarized , the right is holding the line of basic tradition in politics , the left willing to chameleon it's way through any policy , always looking to beg , cheat or steal the brass ring , whatever is ideologically necessary to win .
Okay. Point taken. You are not one who would be interested in an effort to see the value of the opinion of the other side of the table.
It isn't just me , it is the ideology the one right , of less debt , less government , less governmental intrusion , less loss of liberties , just plain less government . Ideologically the total opposite of the left , that left being the rusting remains of what was once called "the Torry's ", those who sided with the original tyranny of big intrusive expensive government, the one that never cures any societal ailment but just "sends the bill "for simply more intrusion by this government .
Pretty simple to understand when the opposite of that less is simply "more" and democrats represent exactly that , more!
Yes, as if the authoritarian and fascist Right is capable of reasoned discussion and dialogue.
I may just as well expect a grizzly to use to toilet.
L to L may be right, and I have been reluctant to admit it, but there may not be a negotiated end to our ideological divide. Our views are so diffe ent in so many areas. Middle ground?
What possible values do I and any rightwinger share short of the desire to survive itself? That is what is happening in Washington on a larger scale.
For the Right the adage has always been "Might makes Right". Just waiting for the time when the rightwinger will find democracy and popular sovereignty an inconvenience. Who thinks that they would bother to negotiate?
There is a little hot java to kick start our morning...
LOL. I am laughing because I see the implementation of many ideals espoused by the left as the death knell for individual freedom. If that is the price we have to pay to ensure the left feels cozy in the belief that they have achieved their ideal of democracy and popular sovereignty than we may be at an impasse. Why can there not be discussion and compromise? We are a Republic for a reason.
And there you go talking of which you know nothing about " fascist , totalitarian ",for one and you are lying saying you want discussion and dialog however .What you want is more from government and ""discussion and dialog " is but one more demand placed on the table , face it , you lie.
It was a roast. That is what a roast is and anyone who attends should know that.
Having seen quite a few roasts, I'd disagree. A jab and an attack are different.
It's always different when the left does something. Spanky has set the bar for rudeness and ill manners, L2L. You're proud of him....aren't you?
I have yet to see any Chief Executive within my lifetime to have displayed so much boorishness and poor manners. But conservatives say he is just "plain speaking" as a man from outside the "beltway" fully inoculated from the niceties and banter of gentlemanly political discourse.
I don't think I have either. But neither have I seen one bring Kim to the negotiating table. Neither have I seen one produce such a rise in the stock market in just a year. Neither have I seen one attack illegal immigration like he is. Neither have I seen one lower unemployment that far (it was done, but before I was paying much attention).
If boorishness is the price for the results seen so far, I'll pay it.
Before you virtually pull your arm out from your socket in praise of your boy, this article might act as a bit of a tether for a flight of fancy?
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter … ck-market/
As for how the North and South Korea matter pans out, we will wait and see, if an independent body sees fit to award Trump a Nobel, I will pay attention and give the credit due.
As for immigration policy, of course, Conservatives are happy.
I don't think there ARE any independent bodies left in this world. And I CERTAINLY don't expect the body that awarded Obama on to give one to Trump, any more than I would expect you to. Truth be told, I think he could all conflict on the planet and they wouldn't give him one; socialists don't like the man, pure and simple.
Yes, as I have said before I don't like the man, but fair is fair. I certainly not going to listen to Trump and his own self promotion. You are so sure that everybody in the entire universe has it out for him. But, if he puts out the 70 years of turmoil in Korean Peninsula he will deserve the Nobel Prize in my opinion
I don't want to impeach him solely on political grounds (not fair) so as long as he does his job and does not commit an impeacheable offense, OK
Don't get to excited about North Korea. This is a repeatedly played out formula. Our main strength is our main weakness. Giving benefit of the doubt and hope. Let's wait and see.
You certainly have the right! But hope springs eternal, and we HAVE seen it happen before, in Germany (although the leader was dead)
We certainly have seen it happen. I have hope, but I hope our leadership shows caution when assessing concessions.
No. They don't. This is a typical example of the hatred for opposing views. Don't listen, just put words in the mouths of the many which might have been said by the one.
I think Trump is a twit. Just less of one than Hillary is. You don't listen. Ever. You've got a bag of tricks. It's getting old. If you aren't interested in meaningful dialogue, please dance elsewhere.
Whatever, complain about something else then!
Oh gee. Another deep thought by Randy. Well, deep for a Randy, anyway.
And another intelligent response.... for you, that is. We can play this game as long as you like...
The problem with attempting to have a dialogue in this type of environment is you don't, really, know with what or whom you are conversing.
When you run across an entity which never listens to anything you say in response or consistently misinterprets...you want to give it the benefit of the doubt. But, is it a bot? The litmus test I usually use is, has it ever provided a unique and thought out response?
Since that litmus test has failed, in regards to my discourse with this particular entity, I'm going to assign a 'bot' status and avoid further attempts at dialogue.
Unless, you can respond with the attached CAPTCHA characters.
I've been trying to figure out how to address LtL on this topic. By now, everyone here knows that I believe voting for Trump was a vote that said lying, bullying, cheating, misogyny, and hatefulness are acceptable qualities in a leader. Maybe what I've been less clear about is how validating that behavior in a leader is, by its acceptance, validating that behavior for all of us. That is how I see it and research in management, psychology, sociology supports this idea.
So, now we're in a place where our leader, the man we should admire and emulate, displays qualities and behavior that should be unacceptable in anyone, much less a leader. Now, those who voted for him, thereby validating his behavior and character, are now concerned about the direction we, the people, are heading with regard to civility, hate, and division.
While I understand many who voted for Trump did so because they viewed Hillary as worse, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot legitimately claim Trump is fit to be President, then decry the very behavior he exhibits as a leader as unacceptable in your fellow citizens. If it is unacceptable for us, then there should be NO QUESTION that it is unacceptable in the President of the United States. Yet, Trump supporters continue to defend his behavior while claiming those who criticize Trump are behaving inappropriately.
It's difficult for me to take seriously a Trump rsupporter's call for unity and civility, even though I do believe it is sincere. I also believe their fingers are pointing in the wrong direction. They ought to be pointing right up to the top, at our leader and his enablers.
You're right - you can't have it both ways. Either the Trump vote was primarily a vote against Clinton or it was because Trumps behavior didn't matter to the voter.
It is just possible that the Trump vote said "I hate what Clinton represents and will accept poor behavior before I accept what she offered". Which validates nothing at all, just says one is better than the other. If you really do "understand many who voted for Trump did so because they viewed Hillary as worse" you will also understand that the vote did not "validate" Trumps behavior anymore than saying that rape is preferable to rape and torture followed by murder would validate the act of rape.
God luck getting some to understand that.
PP says she understands it. "While I understand many who voted for Trump did so because they viewed Hillary as worse"
While she also says "I believe voting for Trump was a vote that said lying, bullying, cheating, misogyny, and hatefulness are acceptable qualities in a leader."
Not sure which she believes "most"; has to be one as they are completely antithetical to each other. Mutually incompatible as a reason for casting a Trump vote.
Um, there were other people to vote for, or did you forget that part? Or, you
could cast no vote at all.
Also, Trump was selected by the Republican voters, just like Hillary was selected by Democratic voters, much to my dismay.
Yes, I get it, you say you voted against Hillary. That's just semantics and a way to abdicate responsibility for the man you voted for.
To be clear, I am not saying you believe his behavior is wholly acceptable. I'm saying you specifically said, with your vote, that it is acceptable for the President of the United States. If it wasn't, you wouldn't have voted for a man who displays it so regularly and so egregiously. To then turn around and call for an end to hate and division while simultaneously continuing to defend him is, well, weird and contradictory.
The leader sets the tone. The people who selected this particular leader bear responsibility for that tone, given that he didn't hide who he was before the election. It would be different if he had pretended to be otherwise.
So, until a Trump supporter finally expresses regret for inflicting this incivility, hate, and division upon us, it is hard to swallow their call for the citizens to behave in a way they have endorsed in their leader, and still defend.
Let's clarify, yet again. No candidate running in that election was qualified. We all had to determine what traits were worse. Hillary's were. In my opinion. I don't see that as an acceptance of Trump as much as a fear of the alternative.
Whiners of the liberal persuasion have sunk to a new low , a lower chord , a baseless bottom in the Trump Resistance movement , yet call for more civility from the right and become outraged when the right utilized the very same tactics THEY learned from democrats , I once belong to the democratic party and am so proud of realizing a long time ago that there was something inherently wrong with a group of people so self absorbed as to be individually entitled , where the "what about me " becomes the base of their entire ideological formula for achieving anything at all for the individual , the group or for the entire party .
Was it Hannity or Wilkow who said "Liberal ideologies are indeed a mental disorder "?
The left , if they were ever able to inject conversational honesty , just wants more , more , more from" their "government , all else , all the rhetoric , all the "dialog " they spew is nothing but a simple demand for more . That's not my opinion , that is fact . Somebody show me that's not true and I'll show you a fiscally responsible scam artist and that, IS at the very center of every liberal I've ever talked to , a "scam" ideology .
First step for us forum dwellers? Stop attributing vast generalizations to "the left" and "the right" and start addressing the unique positions actually posited by individuals who post here. Would that help?
All of a sudden the left and Trump resistance has grown to an awakening , a realization that their party's "bringing down "Trump isn't working and isn't going to . Tell me that's a lie . NOW we are all interested in a cooperative "dialog " all of a sudden ? Just what dialog is required to have distinctly cut government intrusions , corporate tax cuts , personal tax cuts , deregulation across the board , going back to a patriotist's leadership than one who believed in nation building by tearing it down first . Personally I have never seen such a divisive party as your new left in all of my 45 plus years of political observations and participation ,
Somebody point me to the need to "dialog " when you are winning . Obama and so his followers was no more a aisle crosser than Lenin was was a democratic leader , yet you want "compromise " , to the left "compromise" is just another definition of the weaker party giving in . In my political estimation , given Trumps early success' across the board and against all odds , good luck with attaining political "dialog ".
Are you talking to me or the liberal boogeyman? Take a moment to reflect.
Why would I need to fear any boogey man when that boogey man for some , is dying a slow agonizing death as your democratic party is . I saw this coming with what WAS once the dream of both democrats and republicans to clean up washington , term limits etc.....remember that ? Don't forget I was there in the beginning of a liberal movement ,I gave it up seeing nothing but idealist hypocrisy , in truth before I truly understood what hypocrisy AS a democrat meant .
There is only one party now willing apparently TO clean it up , the Trump party . So No I'm not addressing you , I'm addressing the apathy of your party and the conservative party both ! You'll have to deal with your own party boogey- men , personal or party .
Yep. People need to stop posting in the form of general rants and actually address the person they’re supposedly having a conversation with.
Listening andnot responding with those generalizations would help. If you'll commit to it in our dialogue, I will.
So now we justifly Trump success' and his follower -supporters by saying we chose one liar over another less trustworthy liar ? Hmmm, ....No, clearly the differences between Clinton's lies and Trump lies are this , if we talk of sexual encounters , Trumps were transactions between consenting adults
as far as we now know , Clintons - Bill's and thus Hillary's "cross to bare 'were alleged sexual assaults , rapes , and unwanted gropings or whatever were while in the employ of public offices . That was so obvious in the Clintons faces during the debates .
Otherwise to character , The fact that Trump played dirty in the election is just that , playing dirty and winning a NYC street fight election against the Clintons to the tune of or at the cost of a nation of sore losers ? To date all of the legal obstructions against him are all for naught . In fact more than likely soon to end to the dismay of All of his haters .
Whatever else it is in left's morality trials and judging , is just that, outrage targeted to a party mirror , Don't "like " Trump ? Too bad , don't vote for Trump , but please stop whining like playground children waiting for a turn on the swingset . It really all sounds rather juvenile .
Right ........ Like all Clintonites , it's all okay with both of the Clintons but somehow a national emergency and an impeachable hypocrisy with Trump , and umm , WHO"S the real hypocrite, Aime ?
Please point out where I ever defended Clinton?
He's not talking to you, he's talking to the liberal boogeyman.
So apparently the definition of "hypocrisy " escapes you ? There is no need for accusing " shameless hypocrisy" as there's no need to defend Trumps pre-election silence clause payment to a porn star . The left seems to suffering a morality conflict , it was all A-Okay with Bills transgressions and Hillary's defence of them but somehow a crisis as of now ?
I’m not talking about his consensual affair and you know it. And again, I never said Clinton’s transgressions were okay. I am an individual human with my own thoughts and feelings and you are speaking to me, not “the left”.
Even if some liberals ignore the accusations against Clinton while condemning Trump for his, their hypocrisy does not excuse you from your own.
Come on. If it was an impeachable event for Clinton we have to accept the left would consider it the same for Trump. Rules of fair play, and all.
Come on? ....... where's the evidence , and if it's waiting in the wings why is the left wasting their time on a Mueller fleet industry that even the judges are now saying"Ah , show us " why exactly why we in court ?' The hypocrisy of Stormy Daniels ? Now ,what's left ? The left at this point is now putting all your hope in convincing the Trump voter they made a huge mistake?
This is where the left will open mouths , Insert both feet .
I don't really think consenting adults need my permission to do their thing. I don't think infidelity is my business. I really don't want to hear what I view as sordid details.
But. Trump needs to think long and hard about just owning up to sh#t that is true and will come out. Lies lead to protracted problems.
".......Trump needs to think long and hard ......" I'm sure he's thinking long and hard about how the only thing that changes about the make up of obstruction against him is the color of the day . By now I'm sure he knows the price of his lies AND the lies against him from a thousand points of light ,........
So what the left NOW has to do is tell us all please , Where is the impeachable breach of law , high crimes and misdemeanors ? What law was broken warranting a indictable offense and trial procedure to impeachment ?
AND where is that impeachable offense directly relating from the original Mueller inquiry to "Russia -Trump Collusion " because guess what kiddees , that is all there was , is and is going to be for charges .
You have nothing yet and will have nothing tomorrow .
I think we can agree that we shouldn't have open ended fishing expeditions on a sitting president.
Sure you do, you guys think Spanky is above the law.....like he does.
And I'll bet the right doesn't even pursue conspiracy charges from Obama right on down to Strok .........they should.
Why bother? The chance of a politician getting anything other than a black eye to their reputation is fairly nil.
While the left has gone all 3rd world coup against Trump , I'm beginning to feel that we should have a darker push back from the right , start playing the dirty cop stuff that turns the heads of obstructionists . Let loose the dogs of dirty politics . Give the obstructionist's some of their own medicine .
Two wrongs don't make a right. Although, sometimes it appears they make a left.
You already have Devin Nunes sucking up to Spanky and destroying any chance of a real investigation in the House. Or is he considered a Democrat now like Spanky is accusing those on the Mueller investigation. More lies from the leader of the Free World as we've grown accustomed to on a daily basis. Of course, you guys believe all that BS, don't you?
Your team , the Trump obstructionist are the ministers of corrupt accusations based on multiple nothings , not even hiding the fact that most of Mueller's investigators are massive democratic donors ? Sessions dropped the ball , Rosenstein needs firing , Mueller needs firing , and your party's baseless accusations will wither away into the black hole they came from .All for nothing but a moral dislike of a savey, political outsider election winner and a campaign of distraction because your candidate didn't plan on visiting her campaign trail outside of NYC and hollywood .
Time to accept it , time for the party to move on , get over your sore ego's.
You need to get over your delusions if you believe Spanky is going to get away scot free, Horse.
"I'm beginning to feel that we should have a darker push back from the right , start playing the dirty cop stuff that turns the heads of obstructionist"
That what you have been doing, but alas, with no effect.
You don't have any idea what Mueller has on Spanky, do you horse? It kills you not being able to point to leaks from Mueller's investigation because they're none to this point. You guys were perfectly fine when HRC was investigated for years, and you still want more, but you seem to have a double standard when it comes to Spanky. Mueller's investigation has already yielded several indictments, and unfortunately for your idol, will issue many more before he's through.
So stop saying there's no proof of Spanky's guilt unless Mueller tells you so. You're not even close to being an investigator of anything..........thank goodness, but Spanky would probably hire you anyway.
Where's the beef Randy , relating to Trump / Russia /Collusion only .
Nothing else matters legally , except of course your personal feelings that we all care deeply about ............not .
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