There can be know doubt that the Trump Jr. meeting with various Russians connected with Putin was collusion. It is not important that the those on the Russian side ended up only talking about influencing Donald Trump to end a set of 2012 sanctions against Russia. What is important is that three Trump campaign officials were "Offered" dirt on Clinton and they went to the meeting with the understanding that they WERE going to get dirt on Clinton.
Until they met, there was no collusion. As soon as Trump Jr. et al stepped into the meeting expecting dirt they could use on Clinton, that is the definition of "Collusion"; it is ALSO the definition of the crime of Conspiring. They were "wanting" to conspire with the Russians to get dirt on Clinton in order to help Donald Trump win the presidency.
Just so there is no mistaking what are the FACTS of the matter, let me summarize:
* On the Trump side of the conspiracy are Trump Jr., Paul Manafort, and Jared Kushner
* On the Russian side you have:
-- Natalia Veselnitskaya, a Russian lawyer who worked with/for the Russian Prosecuter General
-- Rinat Rafkatovitch Akhmetshin, a Russian-American former counter-intelligence officer allegedly with ties with current Russian intelligence
-- Rob Goldstone, a Russian connected publicist who sent the emails promised that the Russians had dirt on Clinton
-- Anatoli Samochornov, a translator for Veseinitskaya
-- Ike Kaveladze, a Georgian-Russian emissary of Aras Agalarov, a Russian oligarch interesting in getting the sanctions removed.
To repeat - the Act of Holding a Meeting with Russian operatives to Receive Dirt on Hillary Clinton in order to influence the outcome of an American presidential IS a CRIME.
Did Donald Trump know? How could he not? But there is no evidence Yet that says he did. So what is Donald Trumps Crime? ... The Cover Up and Lying about it.
More Actual Facts:
* The NY Time broke the story and Trump Jr initially lied about it but quickly revealed a set of emails about being offered the dirt on Clinton.
* Trump Jr. published the emails leading up to the meeting - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_cam … n_meetings
* Donald Trump was on his way from a G-7 meeting when he found out and "dictated" Trump Jr's response that was released to the media - the message turned out to be lies.
* Donald Trump lied (this is speculation since I can't find a quote or tweet - Yet) in telling his lawyers and his spokesperson, Sarah Sanders, that he did NOT have anything to do with Trump Jr's response. The lawyer and Sanders dutifully reported this to the media and the American public.
* A few days ago, Trump's lawyers (apparently) leaked a 20-page letter they sent to Special Council Mueller where they basically said Trump is above the law. Buried deep inside was the admission that Donald Trump DID dictate his son's misleading and deceptive response to the NY TImes' story.
Where is Donald Trump's crime? It is his attempt to cover up the truth about the Trump Tower meeting and its criminal purpose. While he did not lie to federal investigators it clearly shows his state of mind and Conscientiousness of Guilt. A sufficient number of these ends up in a charge of Obstruction of Justice since the Trump Tower meeting.
What you've described is not only collusion, but conspiracy which is indeed a serious crime: Even Steve Bannon said and I paraphrase, "there was no way Mr. Trump Senior was unaware of the meeting", a secret affair which took place right under his elderly nose at Trump Tower:
Bannon also described the meeting as treasonous which is absolutely correct: Nazi Steve Bannon is gone, non-influential and might even end up in prison due to his association with the Trump Campaign and good for him, but he's absolutely correct to call this meeting between the Trump campaign and Russian spies treason: A serious legal penalty must be imposed and very soon:
a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful.
the action of plotting or conspiring.
I fear the excuses and blaming of the media will only increase the closer Mueller gets to revealing the results of his investigation. You can see it already from those who fell for the lies of the POTUS and are still in denial. A bad row to hoe as my grandma used to say....
Yet FROM your resistance , your obstruction Left , we have no evidence of Clinton / Russian / Collusion ? Even though that investigations just getting going .
You guys are priceless ! You LIE like rugs but you're priceless .
Obstruction from the Left, LOLOLOLOLOL Why didn't you bring the emperor of Obstruction, Sen, mr obstruction, McConnell., up??? He has perfected the art of obstruction. The Ds may have slowed down a few appointments, they haven't obstructed Anything. The Republicans have done a GREAT job of obstructing themselves for the last year and a half (longer, actually)
Lie like rugs eh? Not even close, but you know who does tell Lies, False statements, or Mostly False statements and average of 9 TIMES A DAY?? DONALD TRUMP!!!!! Ds don't need to lie, Conservatives do enough of it themselves.
Sorry - no information exchange, no collusion and no conspiracy. Wanting to collude/conspire does not mean that it happened, no matter how badly you wish it would have. You're beginning to sound like Jake.
No information exchange is needed, only the attempt is needed and that is what happened. Had the collusion stopped at the emails, you would be right. But it didn't did it.
Promises of illegal dirt of Clinton was promised to the Trump Campaign by the Russians and the Trump Campaign attended a meeting where they expected to receive such information. That was the conspiracy.
Here, maybe this will help. I'll paste the relevant sentence:
"A criminal conspiracy exists when two or more people agree to commit almost any unlawful act, then take some action toward its completion. "
The agreement was the offer of illegal dirt, the act was holding the meeting to collect the dirt.
https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-c … iracy.html
The right is terrified of the law actually being upheld. No doubt Mueller has much more tangible evidence of collusion and obstruction of justice. The stench will be great!
No doubt. No doubt at all...to those that made up their mind at the first mention of collusion and do not need proof or even evidence to sustain their hatred.
You see, Randy, we can see the evidence and the logic and anyone capable of critical thinking (which is not a characteristic of Trump supporters) comes to the same conclusion as we do What we see is pretty conclusively that at least the Trump Campaign is guilty of conspiracy. I totally believe that Mueller has the evidence to convict Trump of the same thing.
Wilderness and aghorseback are living in a pretend, self-delusional world where unicorns exist and they can prove it too! (Oh, by the way it would really be nice if y'all understood the law but that would get in the way of your worldview, wouldn't it.)
Oops! Did you forget that the original claim was that Donald Trump colluded with Vladimir Putin to fix the election somehow? Only later, when evidence could not be found of that, did it suddenly morph into someone, somewhere, talked to a Russian in a manner that might have been intended to help Trump win, however little help it might be?
Surely you understand that your unfounded, biased belief means absolutely nothing to anyone not suffering from TDS? Someone really IS living in a pretend world where desire forms belief which is then expected to become reality.
Nope, I only remember that the collusion was between the Russians and the Trump Campaign and possibly Trump. Now that Flynn, Papdopus, 13 (oops, 14) Russians, 3 Russian companies, and assorted hangers on to the Trump campaign and been indicted - that pretty well establishes collusion (conspiracy actually). And please don't forget Trump Jr., Kushner, and Manafort tied to several meetings with an assortment of Russians tied to Putin and Russian intel. Oh yes, I forgot about Manafort (campaign manager) and his business partner (deputy campaign manager) who have been indicted for a variety of charges, which don't now, but probably will lead to Trump campaign collusion. All of those things are Neither UNFOUNDED Nor Biased. They are simply FACTS.
And you say there is no there, there. Give me a break.
How come Trumps told he is not a target of investigations but a subject only ?
That doesn't sound very serious to the rest of us ?
You have to understand legal terms to know the answer to that OR google it.
When you google it you will get something like this: A Target is someone who law is actively working to indict. A Subject is someone being investigated to determine if they should become a Target.
And yet ....google it ...., "There has been no direct Trump /Russia Collusion found" . You DO realize correct ? That Trump would be so insulated from any miniscule finding of his own collusion as to make the investigation totally useless ? The real "Watergate " is the coming democratic investigations , Clinton , the DNC , the Email , Uranium One ?
YOU do realize don't you that the investigation isn't, and HAS NEVER BEEN, Trump/Russia. It has ALWAYS been three things 1) Russian interference in the 2016 election, 2) Trump campaign collusion with Russia to effect the outcome of the 2016 election (like getting dirt on Hillary), and 3) Trump obstruction of justice trying to cover up or end the probe into number 2.
How do you know what Mueller has or doesn't have? Do you have a spy in his organization? You would have to to make the above false claim.
You seem to be upset with Clinton being stupid setting up her email server at home in the PAST. Why aren't you MORE upset with Trump using an UNSECURED cell phone for presidential business and NOT cleaning it on a regular basis.
It may very well be that Trump, personally, did not collude with the Russians, but it is less certain if he knew of collusion within his own campaign, but he personally is guilty of obstruction of justice.
How come Trumps told he is not a target of collusion investigations but a subject only ?
That doesn't sound very serious to the rest of us ?
Sad but true, Eso! It's really futile to argue with the truly indoctrinated Spanky voter, but it's humorous to observe them twist themselves into knots making excuses for the slime ball.
I want to stick up for horse and wilderness disbelief in unicorns.
If a unicorn existed, they would kill it with their guns.
For the left , Look I found actual "evidence" of Trump / Putin Collusion !
See , see ,see everybody, evidence ?
What legal statute exactly is on “Collusion”
It’s not like Trump was destroying evidence like his opponent. Smashing phones, bleach bit on hard drives. Getting foundation donations for Uranium one deal.
Where is the DNC server to prove Muh Russia hacked it.Trump said Trump tower was bugged and it turns out it was. Who responsible for that ?
How did Russia actually rig this election? I didn’t vote for Hillary and I don’t know anyone who did. That’s why Killary lost
Russia posted on social media. The posts were often untrue, but were more convincing than those the DNC posted (they're much smarter, apparently) and thus caused millions of people to vote Trump. Those lies from Russia were more believable than the lies from the DNC and so fixed the election so that Killary could not win.
And of course Trump and Putin put their heads together in months long talks, personally designing and implementing all those tales that were legally put on social media.
Your first point is probably true. Your second point is still being investigated.
Personally, do I believe Trump and Putin put their heads together? No.
But I do believe, as the mounting evidence is making more and more clear, that people on the Trump campaign did meet with Russian operatives to help sway the election.
Did Trump know about it? If I were a betting man, I would say yes, but then that is what the investigation will tell us.
Media spins tales all the time. Look up the 1st amendment The whole free speech thing. Who cares if Trump knew it or not. Doesnt that fall under campaigning . Didn’t bath house Barry make propaganda legal under his watch anyway?Why isn’t Facebook pushing Hillary collusion . Puhleeease get over it. We suffer under Obama for 8 years, the only difference is we took it like a man
Keep on listening to the charlatan Hannity and you won't get any smarter about what's actually going on. You'll feel better about Spanky and yourself.
Randy , You really have a "thing " for Hannity don't you ? You use that line a lot , is it perhaps some alternate attraction perhaps ? Are you spending some quiet time listening to Hannity on the news at night like Trump that you're not telling us about ?
There is no "legal" statute or even definition that I know of. It is just a term some created to describe the crime of conspiracy.
But since everybody else uses it, so will I because that is what they are used to seeing.
Now, to your other lies:
- The FBI DID NOT find that Clinton purposefully destroyed evidence (I am not even sure they found she accidentally destroyed real evidence). that is just a conservative myth (Yet Trump destroys evidence EVERYDAY by ILLEGALLY tearing up every document that touches his hand. I guess you think that is fine that you have to pay, through your tax dollars, someone to piece it all back together again.)
- The FBI found no problem with Clinton's so-called "smashing" of phones
- Hillary Clinton did not smash any phones, although an aide smashed two after they became obsolete and had been replaced. I can't find anything where the FBI said that was illegal - maybe you can find a QUOTE from the FBI saying that
- Yes, a program was used to wipe a hard drive after all of the official information was removed and preserved. Again, I can't find where Trump's friend (in that they helped elect him) the FBI ever said that was wrong or illegal - again, maybe you can
- Your Uranium 1 claims: SNOPES find them false and so do I; another conservative myth
- Trump said President Obama personally wire-tapped him. Those have been prove wrong many times over - yet another conservative myth
- I am guessing you haven't been following real news. Nobody has said that Russia changed votes or registrations, etc (although they tried very hard to do so). What they did do was create a mis and dis-information campaign to 1) persuade Hillary voters not to vote, 2) persuade Trump voters to vote, or 3) persuade Hillary voters to vote for someone else. Given they only needed to affect 90,000 votes over three states, that doesn't seem like a hard push.
- 2,900,000 more people voted for Hillary than Trump. 11,155,384 people voted for someone OTHER than Trump.
https://gabfiles.blob.core.windows.net/ … 13beb.jpeg
So much for Snopes
"Yes, a program was used to wipe a hard drive after all of the official information was removed and preserved. "
Is that intended as spin, naivete, denial or just plain lie? Even liberal Democrats don't believe that (though they may repeat the tale!).
"Trump said President Obama personally wire-tapped him."
I'm unable to find where Trump claims Obama put on the spikes, climbed the telephone pole and clipped the tap on. Or even entered Trump Towers, broke into the phone room and tapped lines. How sure of this are you - that Trump claimed Obama personally set the taps? I mean, I doubt the Secret Service would let him even handle lineman spikes, let alone climb a pole!
As anywhere in the USG you follow orders, did Obama personally splice the wires? no but he knew what was happening
The quote I responded to:
"Trump said President Obama personally wire-tapped him."
Of course he didn't personally wire tap Trump. But that IS what is claimed. Exaggeration to raise emotions? Likely, for no one could possible believe it as written, but it is also patently false.
Trump - "How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy! - 8:02 AM - Mar 4, 2017"
Sounds like Trump meant "personally" to me. (Reading it the way you want to) How much more "personally" can you get when you say "Obama gone to tapp [tap] my phones" How can that not mean that Obama, lol, "put on the spikes, climbed the telephone pole and clipped the tap on."
Using YOUR illogic, what other way is there to interpret "Obama gone to tapp my phones"?
The left is hanging on wordplay because they have nothing else to offer society
You must have a very short memory Wilderness
"Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my "wires tapped" in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!"
What you just committed above is called "sharpshooting" - a logical fallicy
Does THIS help?
"How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy! - 8:02 AM - Mar 4, 2017"
I find it amazing that the left is so butt hurt Killary lost. I keep waiting for the day that Obama Clinton , Comey ,Clapper and Brennen are hanged for treason on pay per view. Kinda like Obama And Killary watched the Benghazi 4 die at their hands )
Try and bullshit your way out of that
Facts awaiting :)
So what? Still living in the 90's? Go find them and indict them, but this discussion is about prosecuting the rock solid case against Traitor Trump:
I've actually lost count of how many times Mr. Trump has obstructed justice, he's gone if we still have laws in this country:
"The crime or act of willfully interfering with the process of justice and law especially by influencing, threatening, harming, or impeding a witness, potential witness, juror, or judicial or legal officer or by furnishing false information in or otherwise impeding an investigation or legal process."
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