Did Trump Really Try To Implement a Coup?

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  1. My Esoteric profile image88
    My Esotericposted 14 months ago

    All of the available evidence seems to say so.

    Here is a workable definition of a coups d'état as an "organized effort to effect sudden and irregular (e.g., illegal or extra-legal) removal of the incumbent executive authority of a national government, or to displace the authority of the highest levels of one or more branches of government. " - https://clinecenter.illinois.edu/projec … roject-cdp

    In this case, the "incumbent executive" would be the newly elected President, Joe Biden.  To you sharpshooters, it matters not that Biden had not been sworn in yet, he was the duly elected president.

    The person organizing the coups is the then current president, Donald Trump, and his minions.  The nescient coups attempt began months before the election as Trump  laid the groundwork to falsely claim the election was rigged in the event he lost in November.  Fast forward to the election and Trump did lose and he started implementing his plan to overthrow the will of the people.

    There are several good timelines on Trump's efforts to remain president and throw Biden out of office.  This is just one:

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/05/politics … ndex.html.

    It should be noted that Trump is still trying to overturn the election.

    1. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 14 months agoin reply to this

      Here is a little more on how Trump and his minions tried to weaponize DOJ to overturn the election results.

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/06/politics … index.html

    2. Sharlee01 profile image85
      Sharlee01posted 14 months agoin reply to this

      At this point, it would seem all once again an "if come". At best we are at a wait-and-see juncture.  In my personal view, nothing will come of any of the investigations but fodder for media, and some very disappointed Trump haters.

    3. Live to Learn profile image74
      Live to Learnposted 14 months agoin reply to this

      I don’t remember you putting so much effort in when Hillary was whining about a stolen election.

      Why is that, do you think?

      1. Valeant profile image87
        Valeantposted 14 months agoin reply to this

        Maybe because she conceded the day after the election, didn't call her supporters to the Capitol and gleefully watch them violently storm the halls of Congress. 

        And since Russian interference was proven, as was members of the Trump Campaign conspiring with Russian Intelligence, the case of a stolen election actually has some validity. 

        Why on Earth so many Americans accepted Russians chosen candidate still baffles me.

        1. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 14 months agoin reply to this

          Me too, it is a mystery. 

          To this day, Trump supporters and minions spout the Putin party propaganda line (they are called Republican talking points) almost verbatim.  What is their affinity with everything communist and Russian?  (Oh, I think I know, they want autocracy not democracy)

        2. Live to Learn profile image74
          Live to Learnposted 14 months agoin reply to this

          Russian interference was not ‘proven’. I doubt the Russians did any more than our government does to influence opinion during foreign elections. I saw no evidence that they swayed voters or tampered with our voting. There was clear evidence of tampering by Hillary and the DNC with the fake and bogus dossier they floated that disrupted our republic for years.

          Nor did she concede the election. I believe she is still whining about having lost it unfairly.

          And, honestly? I find the civil disruption pushed by the left, before and after the election (which is still ongoing) to have been much more destructive to our cohesiveness as a society.

          I’m sorry but you’ve already pushed a lie about January 6th in a prior conversation so you lack any credibility on this topic. Your feces claims were ridiculous. I have far left family members I shared that claim with and each of them rolled their eyes and complained about both sides making up bs stories.

          1. Valeant profile image87
            Valeantposted 14 months agoin reply to this

            Here is the Senate Report confirming Russian Interference.  It's actually titled Active Measures and Interference:
            https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sit … olume1.pdf

            "We found irrefutable evidence of Russian meddling," Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., acting chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said in a statement, directly refuting President Donald Trump's repeated assertions that Russian interference was a "hoax" perpetrated by Democrats.

            Hilary did not concede?  What reality are you living in?
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khK9fIgoNjQ

            Ummm, the feces claim was not mine, but thanks for being confused about who said what at this site.  Please go back and look at that thread so you can be clear about who made that claim so you can make accurate accusations from now on.  But just to show you where those claims might have originated, here are a few links:
            https://nypost.com/2021/01/08/rioters-l … s-capitol/
            https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politi … story.html
            https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national … r-BB1cAQXK
            https://www.revolt.tv/news/2021/1/8/222 … eared-poop
            https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … pitol.html
            https://www.ibtimes.sg/dna-test-poop-sm … gins-54777
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RJSRpa8Q08
            https://www.the-sun.com/news/2105149/tr … -building/

          2. My Esoteric profile image88
            My Esotericposted 14 months agoin reply to this

            "Russian interference was not ‘proven’. " - Obviously a far-right false talking point.  In addition to what Valeant wrote, you should read this:

            https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/fi … 6/download

            "There was clear evidence of tampering by Hillary and the DNC with the fake and bogus dossier they floated that disrupted our republic for years." - What proof, lol?  Nobody even looked because this is nothing more than another Republican/Putin lie.  As to the Steele dossier, the person who first "floated" was, if memory serves, Sen McCain - a Republican. 
            Pertinent facts about the dossier that Trump minions prefer to ignore in there bogus attempt to change the narrative:

            1.  The dossier "is an unfinished 35-page compilation of raw intelligence"

            2.  The dossier was leaked (contrary to the commenters claim)

            3.  "The dossier's 17 reports allege that Trump campaign members and Russian operatives had conspired to co-operate in Russia's election interference to benefit Trump." - While Mueller didn't have quite enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there was a conspiracy, he did prove what we commonly think of as collusion (I think Mueller was wrong regarding Paul Manafort, I think there was more than enough evidence to prove "conspiracy")

            4.  "It also alleges that Russia sought to damage Hillary Clinton's candidacy, including sharing negative information about Clinton with the Trump campaign." - This was TRUE

            5. "The draft dossier was published in full by BuzzFeed News on January 10, 2017, noting that it was unverified"

            6.  The Steele Dossier began with Republicans - "In October 2015, Fusion GPS was contracted by conservative political website The Washington Free Beacon to provide general opposition research on Trump and other Republican presidential candidates."

            7.  It seems like Steele didn't even know the Democrats had taken over the Republican effort for quite a while. "DNC officials denied knowing their attorney had contracted with Fusion GPS, and Steele asserted he was not aware the Clinton campaign was the recipient of his research until months after he contracted with Fusion GPS."

            8.  "Some aspects of the dossier have been corroborated in particular its main allegations that Putin and Russia actively favored Trump over Clinton and that many Trump campaign officials and associates had multiple secret contacts with Russians.

            9. "Contrary to a conspiracy theory promoted by Trump, Fox News, and many of Trump's congressional supporters, the dossier was not the trigger for the opening of the FBI's "Crossfire Hurricane" counterintelligence investigation into "whether individuals associated with the Donald J. Trump for President Campaign were coordinating, wittingly or unwittingly, with the Russian government's efforts to interfere in the 2016 U.S. presidential election,"

            10. "It did play a central role in the seeking of FISA warrants on Carter Page in terms of establishing FISA's low bar for probable cause" - And that was ALL it did, contrary to all of the lies put out by Trump and his minions and defenders

            All of that was easy to find, you just needed to look rather than believe Republican/Putin propaganda.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steele_dossier

            "I find the civil disruption pushed by the left, before and after the election (which is still ongoing) to have been much more destructive to our cohesiveness as a society." - first, it wasn't the "left" pushing anything, it was the killing of unarmed blacks that did the "pushing" and second, it is sad you don't recognize that

            "I’m sorry but you’ve already pushed a lie about January 6th in a prior conversation" - What Lie??  That it didn't happen or that the police are lying about getting beat up?

            1. Sharlee01 profile image85
              Sharlee01posted 14 months agoin reply to this

              The Russian dossier was paid for by Hillary Clinton and the DNC. They were the only ones that have been proven to be using Russian contacts to compose lies about Trump. This is a fact and has been well proven via the Muller report.

              "The Democratic Party-financed dossier, once celebrated by liberal Washington politicians and journalists, is officially debunked, according to a review of special counsel Robert Mueller’s 448-page investigative report.

              Dossier creator Christopher Steele, who was paid with money from the Hillary Clinton campaign and the Democratic National Committee, leveled at least a dozen Russian election conspiracy charges against President Trump and associates."
              https://apnews.com/article/technology-j … d92b775d98

              SORRY FOR THE LONG LIST --- BUT ONCE AND FOR ALL HERE ARE MUELLER"S FINDING'S --- The facts as Mueller reported

              Here are 12 of Mr. Steele’s 2016 conspiracy charges that were in the dossier, as compared with Mueller's factual findings.

              Mr. Steele: There was an “extensive conspiracy between Trump campaign team and Kremlin” and a “well-developed conspiracy of cooperation between them and Russian leadership.”

              Mr. Mueller: Not true. “The investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities,” he wrote.

              Mr. Steele: Mr. Trump and his team set up a hacking operation in the U.S. Mr. Trump funded hacking teams overseas along with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

              Mr. Mueller: Not true. The Mueller investigation found no such illegal activities.

              Mr. Steele: The supposed U.S. hacking operation was funded by the Russian Embassy in Washington. It skimmed cash off pension payments to emigres. The Trump team was involved.

              Mr. Mueller: No such evidence was presented.

              Mr. Steele: Former campaign manager Paul Manafort and volunteer adviser Carter Page worked as a team to liaison with the Kremlin on election interference.

              Mr. Mueller:   Not true. “The investigation did not establish that Page coordinated with the Russian government in its efforts to interfere with the 2016 presidential election,” the report said.

              For Manafort, the Mueller report cited his sharing of internal polling with his longtime employee in Ukraine, Konstantin Kilimnik, whom the FBI believes is tied to Russian intelligence.

              “The Office did not identify evidence of a connection between Manafort’s sharing polling data and Russia’s interference in the election, which had already been reported by U.S. media outlets at the time of the August 2 meeting. The investigation did not establish that Manafort otherwise coordinated with the Russian government on its election-interference efforts,” the report states.

              Mr. Steele: The Trump campaign received a regular flow of anti-Democratic Party intelligence from the Kremlin.

              Mr. Mueller: Not true.

              Mr. Steele: Mr. Trump exchanged information with Russian intelligence for eight years.

              Mr. Mueller: Not true.

              Mr. Steele: Mr. Trump knew of and supported WikiLeaks’ alliance with Moscow, which fed stolen Democratic Party emails to the anti-secrecy group. It released them in huge batches during the campaign.

              Mr. Mueller:   Weeks before the election, evidence pointed to the Kremlin as the hacker. There is no evidence that Mr. Trump supported the illegal activity.

              Mr. Steele: The Kremlin told Mr. Trump it had incriminating evidence on him but would not use it.

              Mr. Mueller: No evidence of conspiracy.

              Mr. Steele: Former Trump attorney Michael Cohen secretly traveled to Prague in August 2016 to meet with Putin cronies to devise a cover-up of the conspiracy and pay off hackers. This is one of Mr. Steele’s most sensational charges.

              Mr. Mueller: Not true. “Cohen had never traveled to Prague and was not concerned about those allegations, which he believed were provably false,” the special counsel wrote.

              Mr. Steele: Carter Page, while on a public trip to Moscow in July 2016 to deliver a commencement speech, met with two powerful Putin associates. Mr. Page agreed to a huge bribe in exchange for lifting U.S. economic sanctions on Russian businesses and figures.

              Mr. Mueller: Investigators couldn’t determine everything Mr. Page, an energy investor, did during the trip. Mr. Page repeatedly has denied the Steele tale. He wasn’t charged. Mr. Mueller cleared him of any election conspiracy.

              Mr. Steele: Russian intelligence has material on Mr. Trump’s sex escapades in The Ritz-Carlton hotel in Moscow during the 2013 Miss Universe Pageant, which he co-owned with NBCUniversal.

              Mr. Mueller: His report contains no evidence. Rumored tapes of the encounter with prostitutes are “fake,” Giorgi Rtskhiladze, a U.S.-based businessman, told the FBI. Mr. Rtskhiladze was an early player in the Trump Organization’s 2015-16 bid to build a Moscow hotel.

              Mr. Steele: Russian entrepreneur Aleksej Gubarev, owner of the web-hosting service firm XBT, hacked Democratic Party computers under pressure from Russian intelligence. Mr. Gubarev categorically denies the charge and has sued Mr. Steele in London.

              Mr. Mueller: His report depicts Russian military intelligence officers as the lone hackers, working out of boiler rooms at a Moscow headquarters. There is no mention of Mr. Gubarev.

              These are the facts as Mueller discovered in a twp year investigation.

              There was no evidence that Trump conspired with Russia to win the election. Mueller did find Russia did interfere with the election but were non-related to conspiring with the GOP or Trump.

              It is disheartening to see many still spread conspiracy theories and make claims that Trump worked with Russian's to try to win the election. There is only one person that did that --- Hillary Clinton she bought and paid for the information that was reportedly from Russians.   

              It always amazes me how Democrats can make accusations against someone, as Hillary did,  of exactly what they tried to perpetrate.  More amazing they can sell it to some of the public.

              1. My Esoteric profile image88
                My Esotericposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                "The Russian dossier was paid for by Hillary Clinton and the DNC. " - Since you appear to be confused about this,  let's reprise a couple of facts:

                6.  The Steele Dossier began with Republicans - "In October 2015, Fusion GPS was contracted by conservative political website The Washington Free Beacon to provide general opposition research on Trump and other Republican presidential candidates."

                7.  It seems like Steele didn't even know the Democrats had taken over the Republican effort for quite a while. "DNC officials denied knowing their attorney had contracted with Fusion GPS, and Steele asserted he was not aware the Clinton campaign was the recipient of his research until months after he contracted with Fusion GPS."

                So much for that false narrative.

                I just noticed the source of your information - a right-wing opinion piece from a right-wing newspaper, Washington Times.   So there is no telling if the author reported the right context.

                Here are a few examples of what IS TRUE from the raw intelligence:

                ... that there was an extensive and "well-developed conspiracy of co-operation between [the Trump campaign] and the Russian leadership",[170] with information willingly exchanged in both directions.[171] That this co-operation was "sanctioned at the 'highest level' and involved Russian diplomatic staff based in the US" - While Mueller couldn't delope enough evidence to convince him he could win a conspiracy conviction in court, he definitely laid out lots of examples of what we term collusion (keep in mind Mueller ALSO SAID much information was kept hidden from his team).

                "...That the Trump campaign used "moles within DNC as well as hackers in the US and Russia" - Not Dispproven

                ".. that Trump associates had established "an intelligence exchange [with the Kremlin] for at least 8 years". That Trump and his team had delivered "intelligence on the activities, business and otherwise, in the US of leading Russian oligarchs and their families", as requested by Putin." - Apparently verified  - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39435786

                ".. that a major goal of the Russians in supporting Trump was "to upset the liberal international status quo, including on Ukraine-related sanctions, which was seriously disadvantaging the country" - Mueller and others verified this

                "... that Putin aimed to spread "discord and disunity" within the United States and between Western allies, whom he saw as a threat to Russia's interests." - Mueller and others verified this

                "... that "TRUMP was viewed as divisive in disrupting the whole US political system; anti-Establishment; and a pragmatist with whom they could do business." That Trump would remain a divisive force even if not elected." - Common Knowledge

                "... that Putin feared and hated Hillary Clinton." - Not sure about the "feared" part, but the "hated" part is obvious

                "... that Putin's interference operation had an "objective of weakening CLINTON and bolstering TRUMP"." - That was one of Mueller's major findings

              2. My Esoteric profile image88
                My Esotericposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                "The Russian dossier was paid for by Hillary Clinton and the DNC." - is false.  Testimony says that Hillary and the DNC didn't even know about it to start with.  Give me the quote in Mueller's report that says they did.  If you can't, concede you are wrong.

      2. My Esoteric profile image88
        My Esotericposted 14 months agoin reply to this

        Because HIllary never "whined" about a stolen election. She conceded right away like any honorable and ethical person would and not put democracy at risk like Trump is doing.

    4. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 14 months agoin reply to this

      More about the attempted coup by Trump prior to the Jan 6 insurrection.  This is a statement from Sen Blumingthal after listening to testimny from former acting AG Rosen on Saturday.

      "Blumenthal said he “was struck by how close the country came to total catastrophe” after listening to the entire closed-door testimony of Rosen Saturday."

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/07/politics … index.html

    5. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 14 months agoin reply to this

      Analysis by Stephen Collison of the latest revelations about Trump's on-going coup attempt.

      It starts out with "A burst of new disclosures exposing the extraordinary efforts by ex-President Donald Trump to steal power after his election defeat constitute a grave warning about the future and his potential bid to recapture the White House.

      The audacity of the former President’s attempts to subvert the law by weaponizing the Justice Department not only underscores how close the United States came to a full blown constitutional crisis this year. It also emphasizes that any attempt by Trump to use a war chest already worth $100 million to try to recapture the White House in 2024 would represent a mortal threat to democracy and the rule of law from a leader who was undeterred even by his own first impeachment."



      https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/09/politics … index.html

    6. crankalicious profile image90
      crankaliciousposted 14 months agoin reply to this

      Trump never had any evidence the election was "rigged" and still doesn't have any such evidence - as demonstrated by his lawyers' inability to verify any fraud claims in court. Yet, he attempt to force the Justice Department to overturn the election. Bill Barr has stated so and Jeffrey Rosen has testified to that.

      What is clear now is the former President Trump needs to be in jail for treason and that anyone who could possibly still support the man is a traitor to this country, more interested in worshipping a demagogue than the country's Constitution.

      1. My Esoteric profile image88
        My Esotericposted 14 months agoin reply to this

        "Trump never had any evidence the election was "rigged" and still doesn't have any such evidence " - Didn't you know Trump never lies and his word is gospel?  LOL.

    7. Kyler J Falk profile image89
      Kyler J Falkposted 14 months agoin reply to this

      This is mostly-irrelevant to the conversation, but I had to comment because it made me laugh. I misread this question as:

      "Did Trump really try to impregnate a cop?"

      I was like, "Uh, probably," but then I realized I misread the title, lmao!

    8. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 13 months agoin reply to this

      Well Gee, Trump was wrong again - he wasn't installed as president today as he and his supporters tried to scare us with.  That said, he is still stoking the flames and inciting his more violent supplicants to stage another attack - at least that is what DHS believes.

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/13/politics … index.html

    9. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 13 months agoin reply to this

      They also rebuked Reeder for claiming in an April FBI interview that the riot was "a plan to allow people in" so the media could "demonize the Trump people" -- a conspiracy theory that 55% of Republicans believe is true, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll that was conducted in April.

      Isn't it absolutely amazing that 55% of supposedly intelligent Republicans believe this conspiracy theory BS.

      1. Sharlee01 profile image85
        Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

        https://hubstatic.com/15687004_f1024.jpg

        Not sure how to break the news ---  So I will let Reuters do it -- "WASHINGTON, Aug 20 (Reuters) - The FBI has found scant evidence that the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol was the result of an organized plot to overturn the presidential election result, according to four current and former law enforcement officials."  https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclus … 021-08-20/

        "FBI finds no evidence Capitol riot was coordinated
        Dozens of followers of far-right militias have been charged with conspiracy from the January 6 riots, but the FBI doesn’t believe they had a plan once they entered the US Capitol"

        "The FBI has reportedly found no evidence that far-right allies of Donald Trump conspired to overturn the presidential election during the January 6 assault on the US Capitol, according to law enforcement officers briefed on the investigation."   https://news.yahoo.com/fbi-finds-no-evi … 03169.html

        Did Trump Really Try To Implement a Coup?  It appears the FBI does not think so... 

        It just was not fair for some to accuse President Trump of participating in any form of planning of the Jan 6 riot.

        1. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 13 months agoin reply to this

          I don't think anybody ever claimed there was one or two central figures that sat down and actively planned the riot.  As the article says, there were a few groups who did organize and plan to enter the capitol - many of those are facing conspiracy charges now.

          But that is not what implementing a coup means.  Trump knows how to rile people up.  Trump knows they were primed to riot because he set the stage.  Trump sent them to the Capitol with a specific purpose - to stop the vote count.  They did that.  That is a coup.

          1. Sharlee01 profile image85
            Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

            "The person organizing the coups is the then current president, Donald Trump, and his minions.  The nescient coups attempt began months before the election as Trump  laid the groundwork to falsely claim the election was rigged in the event he lost in November.  Fast forward to the election and Trump did lose and he started implementing his plan to overthrow the will of the people."

            Need I quote some of what you claimed in the weeks after the Jan riot?
            Come on... You were very much accusatory of Trump, and the people that entered the Capitol.  Conspiracies as a rule don't pan out. As all the Trump accusations, from his Taxes to Russia Russia  --- none turned out to be factual.

            1. My Esoteric profile image88
              My Esotericposted 13 months agoin reply to this

              Your quote is correct.  And to the extent that Trump set the stage and pulled the trigger, he "organized" it.  He didn't the inflammatory lying.  He assembled his "troops" in Washington DC.  He sent them to the Capitol with the words to "Fight for America".  And that is what they did.

              Now, were there formal strategy sessions by Trump or any others to lay out the tactics and plan the minute to minute moves, I seriously doubt it.  It is THAT level of planning that the FBI found little evidence of.

              1. wilderness profile image95
                wildernessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                I would have to say that liberal cities "set the stage" with months of demonstrating that rioting is not only all right but the right thing to do.  Of course, the rioters in DC didn't do near the damage that was done elsewhere, but maybe they weren't very experienced at burning and looting, either.  Or maybe they just had an agenda (demand a fair election) and stuck to it rather than simply destroy under the guise of demanding an end to law enforcement.

                Of course I also understand that you will disagree that months of watching thousands upon thousands of people burning cities with no response (except to refuse any help)  played no part in "setting the stage".  But it is my opinion, along with millions of others, that watching that disgraceful display of anarchy DID have an effect beyond burned out buildings and livelihoods destroyed.

                1. My Esoteric profile image88
                  My Esotericposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                  Your so-called liberals cities didn't lie to Trump supporters about not losing the election, now did they.  They protested cops killing blacks.

                  You are again making things up. There were never "thousands upon thousands of people burning cities" - that is simply a lie.  If you had said tens to a hundred CRIMINALS burning cities, then you might have something.

                  Saying  "with no response" is another lie - plain and simple.

                  I'll use one of your tactics - Did you talk to each of those millions of people you reference?

                  And once again you show you are not capable of understanding the difference between some buildings in a city and the seat of American Democracy.  SAD.

                  1. wilderness profile image95
                    wildernessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                    Unfortunately our Capital building is no longer the seat of American Democracy.  It used to be, but the American form of democracy requires people working together and  compromising with each other to guide and run the nation.  That concept has died, with every year making it more and more obvious that the "leaders" of our nation are not interested in working with each other and not interested in either the needs of the nation or its people.  Thus that building is no longer the "seat of American Democracy"; it is only the place where professional lifelong politicians use Democracy to pad their own pockets and build their power.  SAD.

                    You want the real "seat of American Democracy"?  It is in the towns and cities of the country.  It is in the police precinct buildings from which Democratic based laws are enforced.  It is in the courtrooms in those same towns and cities.  It is even in at least some of the state capitals where laws are enacted.  But it is no longer in Washington DC, where no one cares about American Democracy any more.

    10. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 12 months agoin reply to this

      6 Weeks Later and Trump is STILL trying to overturn the election.  He recently sent a letter to the GA SOS demanding that he decertify the GA election results. (Which is being included in both the GA and House investigations of Trump's illegal activities)

      Then there is this where it appears Trump came closer to succeeding with his coup attempt than we thought.  Newly discovered emails describe the extent of his effort.

      "New bombshells show Trump's coup threat was real and hasn't passed

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/22/politics … index.html

      One ironic quote puts a floor on Trump during the days after his defeat (keep in mind, this from people who don't believe Trump was trying to execute a coup)
      And skeptics of the coup terminology also suggested that Trump's efforts were little more than madcap and incompetent political theater.


      And then there is this from Trump lawyer on how VP Pence can overthrow the election.

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/21/politics … index.html

      1. Sharlee01 profile image85
        Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

        A bombshell IMO would be some sort of factual proof that leads to an arrest. Not a bunch of he said she said. New evidence of a coup??? Really, any dated when the insurrection was to take place? Any instruction in regard to anything? Any instructions of any kind?  Quoting your CNN article

        "Trump had blueprints that the Republicans tried to use to prevent Congress from certifying President Joe Biden's clear and genuine victory, in the form of a memo that laid out a plan for then-Vice President Mike Pence to thwart Biden's Electoral College triumph. The memo was reported in the new book "Peril," by Washington Post reporters Bob Woodward and Robert Costa, and was later obtained by CNN.
        Trump's own campaign staff knew that outlandish claims of fraud made by the then-President's lawyers were utterly false, according to a report in The New York Times. But they did nothing to stop his dangerous allegations.
        Trump sent a letter full of false information to Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, asking him to start the process of decertifying the 2020 election.
        "Peril" also contains a passage that shows Trump cared little for truth, what voters decided in November or bedrock constitutional values -- but agonized about his reputation and mused that accepting defeat would brand him as one of history's losers."

        Your comment  "organized effort to effect sudden and irregular (e.g., illegal or extra-legal) removal of the incumbent executive authority of a national government, or to displace the authority of the highest levels of one or more branches of government. "

        Do you have any form of evidence of an "organized effort on Trump's part to plan a coup? Not words he said at a rally that you add your own context, but a coordinated Plan...

        Your comment -- "The person organizing the coups is the then-current president, Donald Trump, and his minions.  The nescient coups attempt began months before the election as Trump  laid the groundwork to falsely claim the election was rigged in the event he lost in November. "

        "False claims" are in any respect well-set out plan or instructions to commit a Government coup. 

        Perhaps it's time to return to the unraveling Russia conspiracy you felt was 100% true.  John Durham has indicted a second co-conspirator that participated in the Hillary Clinton Russian Hoax. This is current and worth discussing. Here is the  Sussmann indictment...  It's well-written and factual.
        https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/17/politics … index.html

        1. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 12 months agoin reply to this

          "A bombshell IMO would be some sort of factual proof that leads to an arrest. " - And why do you qualify that with "leads to an arrest"?  Is the proof not valid if there is not arrest?  If so, why?  You definitely have factual proof in the emails.

          Do you not agree that Trump was trying to remove the lawful executive (Biden) by overturning a fair and free and certified (by the States) election?  If you don't think so, then exactly what do you think Trump has been up to since June of 2020??

          Since Trump had

          1)  been prepping his base with his Bid Lie since June getting them ready to revolt in case he lost, and
          2) then he and his minions then driving home the Big Lie in the two months after he lost the election and
          3) then crafting his plans for Pence not to certify the election, and
          4) then calling his troops to Washington D.C. on the day of the certification vote, and
          5) then inflaming the mob that showed up with hate and violence filled rhetoric (always being care to say one or two peaceful things in there for his supporters to trot out and say SEE), and
          6) then sending them marching to the Capitol to SAVE AMERICA (a march he promised to join but characteristically lied about doing), and
          7) then not reacting when word of the horrific violence taking place at the Capitol reached him.

          To me, that is a slam dunk prosecution that any juror with half a brain could follow leading to a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt.

          Since there was no so-called "Hillary Clinton Russian Hoax" that statement cannot in any way be true.  Now if you had said the truth which is a Republican-driven investigation into the Trump campaigns Russian connections (of which there were many), then at least you started from a true premise.

          As to the laughable indictment of Sussmann:

          https://www.lawfareblog.com/special-cou … l-sussmann

          EXCERPTS:

          Durham had, beyond that one case (a low level FBI lawyer) issued no findings or reports and had charged nobody with anything. He had merely existed and, by existing, allowed expectations and conspiracy theories to swirl around him.

          And

          But now Durham has spoken on his own. He has indicted a cybersecurity lawyer named Michael Sussmann for allegedly making a single false statement in a conversation in 2016 with then-FBI General Counsel Jim Baker. The allegedly false statement concerned not Trump or Russia, but whom Sussmann represented when he brought Baker some information about an alleged electronic connection between the Trump Organization and a Russian bank.

          WOW, Explosive!

          The indictment is, in other words, far removed from the grave FBI misconduct Durham was supposed to reveal. Very far removed. In fact, it doesn’t describe FBI malfeasance against Trump at all, but portrays the FBI as the victim of agitprop brought to it by outside political operatives. It describes the FBI as diligently running down the leads it had been fed by these operatives and then, well, dropping the matter when it learned they had no merit.

          Sussmann has pled not guilty and I bet will win.

    11. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 12 months agoin reply to this

      Well, as expected the SHAM Arizona Republican so-called "audit" (part of Trump's coup attempt) found that Biden beat Trump.  In fact, if you can believe the "audit", Biden GAINED 99 votes while Trump LOST over 200!! LOL.

      Now Texas (where Trump won) and Pennsylvania will waste a lot of taxpayer's money to come to the same conclusion.

      I would say "what a farce" if it weren't so damaging to American democracy.

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/24/politics … index.html

      1. Sharlee01 profile image85
        Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

        Such old news, most have long moved on from the 2020 election. We have had a new president for 8 months. And it is very clear at this point the majority of American's are having buyers remorse. Polls are worsening daily.

        The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll, sponsored by The ANTIFA by Jack Posobiec, for Friday shows that 42% of Likely U.S. Voters approve of President Biden’s job performance. Fifty-six percent (56%) disapprove.

        The latest figures include 23% who Strongly Approve of the job Biden is doing and 47% who Strongly Disapprove. This gives him a Presidential Approval Index rating of -24. (see trends)


        Fivethirtyeight this morning  49.2 disapproval -- 45.4 approval.
        https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/bi … al-rating/

        Maybe you might want to keep a closer eye on your guy, and his grifter of a son.
        And all the revelations that are being reported on the Durham investigation.

        So, odd you can ignore all of the current news. Seem's like you only worry about the past, not the present.

        1. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 12 months agoin reply to this

          ALL the Revelations?  Come on, give me a break.  He has had zero, none, nada, zilch "revelations" about anything.  Even the one, singular, unique guilty plea wasn't a "revelation", it was already known.

          Durham has been a huge waste of money and resources and a stain on his good reputation.

          1. Sharlee01 profile image85
            Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

            As was Mueller... I consider Durham connecting the Clinton Campaign and the very attorney that represented that campagn planted one of the firsts Lies or seeds of Hillary Russia grift very very relevant.  It would seem you are willing to ignore evidence, as you did with all the Steel dodier. and the railroading of Fylnn and Carter Page.  The puzzle is coming together nicely.  Not sure what else Durham has, but hopefully he traps Hillary, she is a slipper rat, and always has been.

            1. My Esoteric profile image88
              My Esotericposted 12 months agoin reply to this

              So you think not telling the FBI who he represented is relevant?  What is it relevant to?  Sorry, but you are clearly tilting at windmills here and making mountain out of tiny little ant hills.

              As to Mueller, I just chalk that up to your unreasonable belief that Trump or his campaign or his administration can't be guilty of anything even though many have been indicted and found or pleaded guilty.  I am sorry to say, it is that blindness to reality which makes most of us take anything you say with a shaker of salt.

              What "railroading"??  Flynn pleaded guilty and he was guilty of much more.  And I have to repeat myself again about the dossier - a lot of it was verified and none of it was disproved!  The rest falls in that gray area of maybe true, maybe not

              Since Durham has found nothing, I suspect his "investigation" will be closed.  Remember, a few of his staff quit from being pressured to find something wrong when their was no evidence.

              I am still hoping Congress or DOJ will indict Trump on the many cases of Obstruction of Justice that Mueller provided lots of evidence for.

              1. Sharlee01 profile image85
                Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                "So you think not telling the FBI who he represented is relevant?  What is it relevant to?  Sorry, but you are clearly tilting at windmills here and making mountain out of tiny little ant hills."

                I think Sussmann was sent to do a job --- lie, which he did. You seem to forget or I will give you the benefit of the doubt  --- what he told the FBI was proven to be untrue.

                "Special counsel John Durham charged lawyer Michael Sussman over a statement during a Sept. 19, 2016 meeting between Sussmann and the then-FBI general counsel, James Baker, at which Sussman told Baker about suspicions relating to alleged secret communications between the Trump campaign and Russia. The suspicions were later determined to be unfounded."

                "In fact, Sussmann acted on behalf of specific clients, namely a U.S. Technology Industry Executive, a U.S. Internet Company, and the Hillary Clinton Presidential Campaign.”  https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justic … n-n1279353

                His lie misled an FBI investigation, that held no truth and slandered the President. right before the election. Did not work, but Clinton gave it her all.

                It's been reported (leaked)  that Durham Durham at this point is requesting indictments on Perkins Coie.

                This past week Sussmann resigned from his law firm, Perkins Coie.

                The full list of Mueller indictments and plea deals
                1) George Papadopoulos, former Trump campaign foreign policy adviser, was arrested in July 2017 and pleaded guilty in October 2017 to making false statements to the FBI. He got a 14-day sentence.

                2) Paul Manafort, Trump’s former campaign chair, was indicted on a total of 25 different counts by Mueller’s team, related mainly to his past work for Ukrainian politicians and his finances. He had two trials scheduled, and the first ended in a conviction on eight counts of financial crimes. To avert the second trial, Manafort struck a plea deal with Mueller in September 2018 (though Mueller’s team said in November that he breached that agreement by lying to them). He was sentenced to a combined seven and a half years in prison.

                3) Rick Gates, a former Trump campaign aide, and Manafort’s longtime junior business partner, was indicted on similar charges to Manafort. But in February 2018 he agreed to a plea deal with Mueller’s team, pleading guilty to just one false statement charge and one conspiracy charge. He was sentenced to 45 days in prison and 3 years of probation.

                4) Michael Flynn, Trump’s former national security adviser, pleaded guilty in December 2017 to making false statements to the FBI. -- Charges were dropped

                5-20) 13 Russian nationals and three Russian companies were indicted on conspiracy charges, with some also being accused of identity theft. The charges related to a Russian propaganda effort designed to interfere with the 2016 campaign. The companies involved are the Internet Research Agency, often described as a “Russian troll farm,” and two other companies that helped finance it. The Russian nationals indicted include 12 of the agency’s employees and its alleged financier, Yevgeny Prigozhin.

                21) Richard Pinedo: This California man pleaded guilty to an identity theft charge in connection with the Russian indictments, and has agreed to cooperate with Mueller. He was sentenced to 6 months in prison and 6 months of home detention in October 2018.

                22) Alex van der Zwaan: This London lawyer pleaded guilty to making false statements to the FBI about his contacts with Rick Gates and another unnamed person based in Ukraine. He was sentenced to 30 days in jail and has completed his sentence.

                23) Konstantin Kilimnik: This longtime business associate of Manafort and Gates, who’s currently based in Russia, was charged alongside Manafort with attempting to obstruct justice by tampering with witnesses in Manafort’s pending case last year.

                24-35) 12 Russian GRU officers: These officers of Russia’s military intelligence service were charged with crimes related to the hacking and leaking of leading Democrats’ emails in 2016.

                36) Michael Cohen: In August 2018, Trump’s former lawyer pleaded guilty to 8 counts — tax and bank charges, related to his finances and taxi business, and campaign finance violations — related to hush-money payments to women who alleged affairs with Donald Trump, as part of a separate investigation in New York (that Mueller had handed off). But in November, he made a plea deal with Mueller too, for lying to Congress about efforts to build a Trump Tower in Moscow.

                37) Roger Stone: In January 2019, Mueller indicted longtime Trump adviser Roger Stone on 7 counts. He accused Stone of lying to the House Intelligence Committee about his efforts to get in touch with WikiLeaks during the campaign and tampering with a witness who could have debunked his story. He was convicted on all counts after a November 2019 trial.

                Finally, there is one other person Mueller initially investigated but handed over to others in the Justice Department to charge: Sam Patten. This Republican operative and lobbyist pleaded guilty to not registering as a foreign agent with his work for Ukrainian political bigwigs, and agreed to cooperate with the government.

                None of these changes have led to any charges against Trump. This is just factual.

                Not sure how you can know what Durham has found in his lengthy investigation, the report has not been presented. He did indict Sussmann due to being up against the statute of limitations on charging him. 

                Then there was this ugly Clinton ploy --- that Durham uncovered. You may call this nothing, but it more than proves what lengths Clinton would go to smear Trump. Let's not forget the ridiculous Steel fake dossier.

                "Kevin Clinesmith, the former FBI lawyer who altered an email during the Russia investigation that was used to justify the surveillance of former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page, was sentenced to one-year probation on Friday.

                Clinesmith, who worked for the FBI for four years, pleaded guilty last summer to falsifying the communication during the early stages of the FBI's investigation into Russia's interference in the 2016 election and possible ties to the Trump campaign.

                The document was altered to show that Page was "not a source" for the CIA, even though the original message from the CIA indicated otherwise. The CIA had earlier told investigators in a memo that Page was an "operational contact" for the agency from 2008 to 2013 and provided information about his contacts with Russian intelligence officers."
                https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol … 072865001/

                All her dishonest BS and minions doing her dirty work got her zip... She lost.

                So, let's wait to see what Durham has. Hopefully, he will provide more facts that will tell the entire ugly grift Clinton tried to pull. He has certainly given us two of her flunkies.  I think there will be more. I want justice, and for her to live out her life knowing the truth was outed and showed her for the grifter she has been all her life.  I mean Trump has been exonerated, but Hillery, her deeds need to be documented for history's sake.

                1. My Esoteric profile image88
                  My Esotericposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                  'I think Sussmann was sent to do a job --- lie, which he did. " - What makes you think so?  What was he sent to lie about?  What else, besides the low level FBI lawyer, has Durham found?

                  So now you are claiming Durham is seeking indictments on Sussmann's former employer Perkin Coie. Funny.  In fact, this is what you are grasping at straws about "But now they’ve finally found their culprit (Sussmann)! A lawyer who maybe, kind of, might have worked with the Clinton campaign told the FBI about a cybersecurity issue and didn’t say he was doing so on behalf of the campaign."  WOW, what a bombshell revelation!! - NOT

                  "His lie misled an FBI investigation, " - Exactly how did it do that since they already knew who Sussmann represented?  Mountains out of tiny ant hills, I say.

                  "None of these changes have led to any charges against Trump." - Of course they didn't - I thought you knew Trump couldn't be charged by Mueller.  Could THAT be a reason Trump wasn't charged? Maybe now that you know this, you might change your implication.   And thanks for making my case about Mueller's important work.

                  How long must we wait for Durham to come up with anything?  Another two years.  BTW, the ONLY "grifter" is Trump.  "Flunkies" - you certainly have a way of exaggerating to the point of ridiculousness, lol.

                  The ONLY think Trump, personally, was so-called "exonerated" (a word that Mueller didn't use in the positive sense) from was conspiring with the Russians.  Trump's campaign was exonerated from nothing and several were indicted and convicted for wrong doing (which I bet if you did a count, a majority of Trump's close associates have been)  FURTHER, Mueller provided clear evidence that Trump is personally guilty of obstruction of justice. 

                  BTW, I never really thought Trump, himself, had conversations with the Russians. But, his campaign certainly colluded with them - Mueller presented a lot of evidence showing that.  I do think Trump and Roger Stone conspired to get the Wikileak purloined information released.  Since it was the Russians who provided Wikileaks that information, you do have that connection between Trump and Russia.

                  Hillary Clinton, IMO, was one of the most dedicated, hard working, honest (as a politician can be) public servant that has come around in a long time.  You hate her while you love the most vile, corrupt, dishonest (even by political standards) con man to ever hold office.

                  A last point.  I would hope you agree that when a people lose confidence in their nations election system, then democracy has been subverted/destroyed.  If so, then why don't you see that Trump is doing (actual has done) just that by convincing a substantial portion of Americans that the free and fair 2020 election was a fraud?  You do know he is lying about that don't you?  I certainly hope so.

                  1. Sharlee01 profile image85
                    Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                    I shared my thoughts on the subject, and I clearly feel Durham connecting the two he indited show good proof of Clinton's scam.  And the two he indited had good parts in planting the Russia/Trump scandal, that got half the country to believe a lie. That's my opinion. I will wait to see if Durham has any more revelations in his report.

                    I always knew the Trump/Russia crap was a Clinton grift, it had their MO all over it.  Hillary's reputation is there for all to research. I found her dishonest and power-hungry.  She was and always was a grifter always in the middle of a scandal.

                    I never had a problem with the election process, still don't.  To each their own... I think there was minor fraud as there is in all elections.  I accepted the new president.

    12. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 12 months agoin reply to this

      More Trumplican rhetoric to instigate a coup.  Bannon hides his violent ideas by saying his "shock troops" are bureaucrats and are only to attack after a Trumplican takes over the White House.  He knows the proud boys, oath keepers, and 3%ers won't wait.

      https://news.yahoo.com/steve-bannon-dou … 54820.html

      1. Sharlee01 profile image85
        Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

        It's very well known that Bannon as a rule offers radical opinions. He has a following. I don't ascribe to his ideologies.  Although, I think he has many that do follow him and buy into his agenda.

        I hope Trump stays away from him, I feel Bannon is radical, and Trump would lose support if he leans into radical BS.

        1. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 12 months agoin reply to this

          I am glad you reject Bannon but unfortunately for you, it looks like Trump is in bed with Bannon again.

    13. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 12 months agoin reply to this

      I see The Woose, Pense, has joined the anti-democracy crowd by whitewashing the attempted murder of himself.

      I notice that Trump has finally admitted he did a terrible job with his slogan Make America Great - Again meaning he blew it the first time.

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/07/politics … index.html

      1. Sharlee01 profile image85
        Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

        He can use "Make America Great Once Again" which showed he had it pretty great and can do it again. Although it may not fit well on a hat. I will be up for a button.

        1. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 12 months agoin reply to this

          Hmmmm, that is certainly not my interpretation.

          1. Sharlee01 profile image85
            Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

            Yes, I realize that...

    14. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 12 months agoin reply to this

      The definition of a coup - Senate Judiciary Committee issues sweeping report detailing how Trump and a top DOJ lawyer attempted to overturn 2020 election

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/07/politics … index.html

      1. Sharlee01 profile image85
        Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

        Here is the minorities report -- So much different from The Dem's Report.

        EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
        • President Trump listened to his advisors, including high-level DOJ officials and WhiteHouse Counsel, and followed their recommendations.1
        • President Trump twice rejected sending Jeffrey Clark’s, the Acting Assistant AttorneyGeneral of the Civil Division, a draft letter recommending to some states with reported voter irregularities that they hold a legislative session to choose different electors.2
        • Clark told Acting Attorney General Jeffrey Rosen regarding his draft letter, [t]hese are my ideas,” not the President’s.3
        • President Trump accepted Rosen’s recommendations that DOJ not file a draft complaint against some states based on reported voter irregularities and “didn’t resist it or deliver an ultimatum or try to overrule [DOJ].”4
        • Donoghue testified that President Trump had “no impact” on DOJ investigative actions relating to the election.5
        • President Trump twice rejected firing Rosen.6
        • President Trump did not fire anyone at the DOJ or FBI relating to his frustration that more wasn’t done to investigate election-related allegations.7
        • President Trump considered Richard Donoghue as Acting Attorney General, Principal Deputy Attorney General, and Rosen’s deputy when Bill Barr resigned.8
        • President Trump told Rosen that he did not expect the DOJ to overturn the election.9
        • Witnesses testified that they were not pressured by President Trump or the White House to take action with respect to investigating certain election fraud claims.10
        • Notes of a phone call between Rosen, Donoghue, and President Trump show that the President expressed concerns centered on “legitimate complaints and reports of crimes” relating to election allegations.11
        • Witnesses testified that President Trump’s outreach to DOJ officials focused on making sure they were “aware” of election fraud allegations and that they were doing their job to investigate them, rather than issuing orders to take certain action.12
        • President Trump expressed concerns related to the U.S. electoral system writ large rather than concerns about his campaign or himself personally.13

        Always nice to see both sides, especially in a Congressional investigation.

        1. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 12 months agoin reply to this

          You mean you are taking the side of the Republicans who whitewash the insurrection?  Who say all those injured police "invited" the rioters into the Capitol? Who believe many of those who invaded the Capitol weren't intent on killing politicians?  Is it those Republicans who you chose to believe over the real facts? Alrighty then.

          "Donoghue testified that President Trump had “no impact” on DOJ investigative actions relating to the election." - That is true - BECAUSE DOJ stood up to Trump's attempts to overthrow the election.

          "President Trump did not fire anyone at the DOJ or FBI relating to his frustration that more wasn’t done to investigate election-related allegations.7" = ROFL again.  He didn't fire them because Cipollone and a host of DOJ big wigs threatened to resign if Trump carried through with his threat.  That would look very bad and Trump hates to look bad.  That is why he dropped the idea.

          "President Trump told Rosen that he did not expect the DOJ to overturn the election." - I suppose that could be true since Trump told Rosen to "Just say that the election was corrupt + leave the rest to me.  Why would DOJ need to do it Trump was going to do it himself??

          "Witnesses testified that they were not pressured by President Trump " - REALLY? Then why did Cipollone and a host of DOJ officials threaten to resign if they didn't feel pressured?  Why did Cipollone say this thing Trump wanted to do was a "murder-suicide pact"?  Why would they do/say that if there was no pressure?

          "... centered on “legitimate complaints and reports of crimes ...” relating to election" - Which "legitimate" ones do you think they were referring to given there were NO legitimate complaints.  Even Giuliani just testified that he had no basis for all of the lies he told about election fraud, LOL



          "President Trump expressed concerns related to the U.S. electoral system writ large rather than concerns about his campaign or himself personally.13" - I take it they have been ignoring his rallies where he says exactly the opposite. LOL

          "Witnesses testified that President Trump’s outreach to DOJ officials focused on making sure they were “aware” of election fraud allegations and that they were doing their job to investigate them, rather than issuing orders to take certain action.12" - Yep, he did that 9 times! Once where we said to Rosen - "Just say that the election was corrupt + leave the rest to me, That certainly sounds like he was just making Rosen "aware", ROFL.

          1. Valeant profile image87
            Valeantposted 12 months agoin reply to this

            The TDS (Trump Demagogue Syndrome) is certainly strong with that one.

            1. My Esoteric profile image88
              My Esotericposted 12 months agoin reply to this

              It makes no difference to these so-called Republicans that Trump AND THEM have almost brought American democracy to an end.  It will only take a slight push now to send America into tyranny and a Trump dictatorship.  He is already surrounded by America's equivalents to Himmler, Eichmann, Goebbels, Speer, Hess, etc.  The brown shirts are the Proud Boys, 3%ers, Oath Keepers and the like of today.  The acquiescent, brainwashed masses in the 1930s are the same type of brainwashed masses who acquiesce today - who say things such as it is a lie that the unvaccinated make up over 90% of the Covid cases and deaths.

              The similarities are frighteningly striking.

              1. Valeant profile image87
                Valeantposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                The only principal that will guide my vote in 2022 and 2024.  The rest is noise.

                https://hubstatic.com/15745773_f1024.jpg

          2. Sharlee01 profile image85
            Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

            Your very first sentence shows you applied a false context to my post...

            "You mean you are taking the side of the Republicans who whitewash the insurrection? "

            Where did I share my opinion on the report? Did I in any respect offer my opinion of the report?

            Here is what I said ---  Here is the minorities report -- So much different from The Dem's Report.   Always nice to see both sides, especially in a Congressional investigation.

            Then you once again go on a Trump rampage. All your opinion... I am not willing to speculate anything that occurred on Jan 6th.

            The investigation produced much of nothing. Waste of time and money.

            1. My Esoteric profile image88
              My Esotericposted 12 months agoin reply to this

              You presented Grassley's minority report which was a whitewash of the truth.  I rest my case.

              There is no speculation about the 6th, it was all caught on video.

              1. wilderness profile image95
                wildernessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                All caught on video...except the part where Trump encouraged a violent riot inside the capital building.  Indeed, video caught him doing the exact opposite.

                But hey, that isn't important, is it?  It's still an "insurrection", fomented by Trump, right?  Even though the video shows the opposite - we can just ignore that tiny detail, right?

                1. My Esoteric profile image88
                  My Esotericposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                  "All caught on video..." - Yes, even that was caught on video.  There was much footage from the crowd where you could hear Trump inciting them and them reacting angrily to his "fighting" words.  So, no, the video does not show the "exact opposite",  That video will used, I am sure, in his trial.

                  1. wilderness profile image95
                    wildernessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                    I, too, am pretty sure it will be used at any trial of Trump over causing a riot.  By the defense.

              2. Sharlee01 profile image85
                Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                Yes, I presented Senator Grassley's report he sat on the committee and reported his findings. Not sure why you dismiss them?  I respect his findings. I can't believe you feel your opinion overrides anyone you disagree with, and you have the audacity to say --  'I rest my case".

                As I said the investigation produced nothing. And this was a waste of money.  The FBI and DOJ are conducting investigations on the Jan 6 riot. I will stick with what they come up with --- they have indicted some citizens and they will have their day in court. Guess we will see where that goes. They have not indicted Trump unless I missed something. And they never will...

                They have it all on video, every word... Like when the President said "I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard,"

                1. My Esoteric profile image88
                  My Esotericposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                  "Not sure why you dismiss them? " - I dismiss them because they are contrary to the facts.  In order to support a Trump-apologist narrative, he (they) cherry-picked pieces of information, took them out of context, and just plain misrepresented the facts of the matter.

                  "They have it all on video, every word... " - [i]Yet you missed, or dismiss, the 20 times he used the "fight" or variations of "fight" during that same speech you so carefully listened to that inflamed is mob when put in context with other hot button words to make those listening to him even more angry.  He knew exactly what he was doing - but yet you attempt whitewash and minimize what he did.


                  "The FBI and DOJ are conducting investigations on the Jan 6 riot." - [/i]What has that got to do with anything. They aren't investigating the same thing, their investigation is very focused on the insurrectionists and NOT what got them there. They are not investigating the root cause of the insurrection. That is what the Jan 6 Commission is all about.[/i]

        2. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 12 months agoin reply to this

          Here is a great example of how Republicans and their apologists minimize the truth by changing the context:

          In reference to this "innocent" statement from above - "President Trump told Rosen that he did not expect the DOJ to overturn the election."

          Here is what Grassley was referring to - According to Rosen, Trump opened the meeting by saying, “One thing we know is you, Rosen, aren’t going to do anything to overturn the election.” Over the course of the next three hours, the group had what Donoghue called “a wide-ranging conversation” focused on whether Trump should replace DOJ’s leadership,

          Here is what that REALLY means, and it isn't Grassley and his believers fantasy version:  Trump was CLEARLY being sarcastic when he said "One thing we know is you, Rosen, aren’t going to do anything to overturn the election.  Why do we know this, because they immediately started talking about replacing Rosen because he refused to do Trump's bidding in overturning the election.

    15. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

      This has nothing to do with Trump's slow moving coup, but I wanted to put it out here anyway as food for thought for parents whose school lack of Covid policies got their children sick or dead.

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/11/us/wisco … index.html

    16. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

      Others on this forum would say "many" Republicans, others would exaggerate, like the headline does, and say "some" Republicans, but I will say Two in the news Republicans urge their fellow, unbrainwashed, brethren and sisteren to vote for moderate Democrats in 2022 in order to put a stop to [b]Trump's slow moving Coup".

      https://www.businessinsider.com/gop-off … 22-2021-10

    17. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

      More damning information on Trump's Slow Moving Coup

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/12/politics … index.html

    18. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

      Even more information on Trump's Slow Moving Coup

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/13/politics … index.html

      1. Sharlee01 profile image85
        Sharlee01posted 11 months agoin reply to this

        This is a current problem that will affect Biden's presidency. And one that I am sure you would be interested in. You have exhibited an interest in crime that presidents' are involved in.  This involves our current President.  And certainly shows a possible crime. It is very promising that the FBI and DOJ will get to the bottom of these ongoing accusations about the president and his son Hunter Biden. I can't imagine if this story was about Trump and one of his children... This is what I was referring to the other day when I claimed one needs evidence, physical evidence, emails, one on one conversations, documents that can be used to convict one of a crime.  So far I have not seen any evidence that Trump planned an insurrection. But, Biden and Hunter, there is now an ever-growing trail of documents that could be used as evidence to show possible money laundering between dad and son. I would assume you do not approve of this form of criminal activity.  Or should we give Biden and Hunter the same benefit of the doubt as I offer Trump? 

        IN HOT WATER: New emails uncovered show Joe Biden shared a bank account with scandal-laden son Hunter Biden

        Emails obtained by DailyMail.com from Hunter Biden’s abandoned laptop show that his business partner, Eric Schwerin, was working on Joe Biden’s tax returns and discussing the father and son paying each other’s bills.

        Additionally, the emails show that Schwerin fielded book deal requests for Joe Biden, who was vice-president at the time and also managed the donation of Biden’s Senate papers to the University of Delaware.

        Hunter Biden has claimed that he and his father shared a bank account and admitted last year that he was under federal investigation over his taxes.

        Emails show that on April 9, 2010, Schwerin wrote to Hunter: "I was dealing all afternoon with JRB's taxes (but solved a big issue - so it was all worth it)."

        On June 10 of the same year, Schwerin wrote, "Your Dad's Delaware tax refund check came today. I am depositing it in his account and writing a check in that amount back to you since he owes it to you. Don't think I need to run it by him, but if you want to go ahead. If not, I will deposit tomorrow."

        It is unknown what specifically Joe Biden owed Hunter money for.

        An expert on money laundering and criminal tax law told DailyMail.com that those entanglements could drag the current president into the FBI’s investigation.

        "Whatever transaction you're looking at, if there's a connection to a family member or a friend, sure the answer is yes [they would be investigated]," the expert, a former federal prosecutor who requested not to be named, told DailyMail.com. "Obviously, if you're talking about the President of the United States, you'd better have a pretty damn good reason to talk to that person."

        The FBI and IRS are reportedly also investigating Hunter Biden’s business relationships and the possibility that money laundering charges are in order.

        Another expert, former U.S. Intelligence Officer and Treasury Special Agent John Cassara, told DailyMail.com that President Biden would already be in the crosshairs if not for the fact that he’s the president.

        "The information available publicly is very worrisome, particularly in the areas of corruption," Cassara said. "They could go at this from all different avenues. Follow the corruption trail and then charge money laundering."

        https://www.foxnews.com/politics/joe-bi … ter-report

        1. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

          WHAT "ongoing accusations about the president AND his son Hunter Biden."? - seems to me you are exaggerating again.  Now if you had left it at Hunter, then you would have been believable.  Not no, you had to stretch credibility by bringing the president into it.

          You got all of that out of Fake Fox News and Fake Daily Mail?  When you provide a creditable source, I will read it.

          It simply amazes me how blind Trumpers are to what he is trying to do.  SAD.

          1. Sharlee01 profile image85
            Sharlee01posted 11 months agoin reply to this

            You have a short memory... LOL, You have accused Trump and his children of numerous crimes.  And you take about fake news...  The emails are displayed. One would think Hunter would stop losing laptops.

            1. My Esoteric profile image88
              My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

              Give me a legitimate source - CNN, CBS, BBC, NPR etc - that presents the story in the same way that Fox and Daily Mail do.

              1. Sharlee01 profile image85
                Sharlee01posted 11 months agoin reply to this

                It would seem to be a true account due to the documents that Fox presented. These give very good evidence of the accusation. As of yet, I have heard no statements from anyone involved denying the emails are legitimate.

                I suggest you read and view all the various emails that are posted on --- Very incriminating...   Tapes, and videos as well as emails that were on Hunter's laptop... 
                https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … probe.html


                ABC News ---   https://wset.com/news/nation-world/emai … nk-account

                Politico -- https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ … ion-515583

                1. Valeant profile image87
                  Valeantposted 11 months agoin reply to this

                  I looked into the claims about Hunter Biden brokering deals based on his father's name.  There is smoke there.

                  As to the latest about sharing a bank account and setting up legal book deals, I think that is the latest fabricated 'scandal' from the far-right.

                  1. Sharlee01 profile image85
                    Sharlee01posted 11 months agoin reply to this

                    I see smoke, and after reading the emails more smoke. But I trust the FBI will do a complete investigation and have all this leaked info.  The article goes astray when it uses words like A former federal prosecutor.

                    At this point, he is also being investigated in Delaware for his taxes.
                    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/1 … tor-499782

                    This will be an interesting story to watch. But at this point, Hunter has not been charged with anything at all.

                2. My Esoteric profile image88
                  My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

                  Fox and Daily Mail (and Brietbart and OANN) are known to misrepresent facts and, in some cases, fabricate them.  That is why I don't believe a word they say, they no credibility or veracity left.

                  I did read, however, the Politico article last night and found it interesting.

                  First, let me say that over time, I have come to believe Hunter Biden as the same problem Trump does with ethics and morality.  They both walk on the shady side of the street.  Also, both are under investigation for potentially criminal behavior and both may ultimately be held accountable.  The only difference, at this point in time, is Hunter's crimes are less obvious than Trump's - that may change however.

                  Here is what I picked up out of the Politico article:

                  And it was unclear what to make of the alleged leak of material from Hunter Biden’s laptop, especially after social media companies moved to restrict access to the story and a bevy of former U.S. intelligence officials dismissed it as likely “Russian disinformation.”

                  Followed by -

                  That may be changing. Along with new evidence that at least some of the alleged laptop material is genuine

                  After all, concerns about money influencing politics have traditionally animated liberals more than conservatives.

                  Biden’s relatives have denied allegations of wrongdoing, and none have been accused of criminal misdeeds related to their business dealings. - which means, according to you, they are innocent as lambs in the driven snow, just as you claim Trump is.  But like with Trump, I don't buy that.  When there is a lot of smoke, there is almost certainly fire.  Right now I don't know how much smoke there is with relatives of Biden, but there is a blinding amount of it surrounding Trump.  That said, if the smoke thickens around Hunter or any of the other relatives, then they need to be indicted and prosecuted just like Trump should be.

                  That said, here is some of the Biden family smoke But in recent decades, members of the First Family, including Hunter Biden, have repeatedly entered into financial relationships with people who have an interest in influencing their powerful relative

                  More smoke [i[Several former business contacts have also accused Biden relatives of explicitly invoking their political clout to advance their business interests, charges that members of the family have denied. [/i]

                  and

                  And since 2007, several of their business associates have been convicted of federal fraud or corruption charges, though no members of the First Family have been implicated in those crimes. - Sort of reminds you have Trump, doesn't it (save the implicated part - Trump is implicated in some of the crimes his lawyer was convicted of)

                  Much more smoke was offered with this conclusion:

                  “Even though this administration isn’t corrupt on the same level as the previous administration, which seemed to embrace the corruption,” said Kathleen Clark, a law professor and government ethics expert at Washington University in St. Louis, “the public has reason to be concerned.”

    19. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

      Why are some Conservative lawmakers talking secession and civil war like they did back in the 1850s?

      https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/202 … dn-vpx.cnn

    20. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

      I see that the DOJ finally agreed that Trump's firing of FBI agent Andrew McCabe (via his flunky Jeff Sessions) was wrong and unwarranted.  McCabe has been exonerated, his record wiped clean, and '"reinstated" into the FBI so that he could properly retire.

      That is what a REAL exoneration looks like and not the fake one the Right says Mueller gave Trump (even though he explicitly said he wasn't)

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/14/politics … index.html

    21. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

      As part of the rancid atmosphere left by Trump's rhetoric we have his supporters driving school board members out of their elected jobs.  Typical of Trumpers isn't it?

      https://www.mlive.com/news/muskegon/202 … ation.html

      https://www.dailyherald.com/news/202110 … harassment

      https://www.tampabay.com/news/education … -harassed/

      Oh, then there is this: This very unChristian school tells vaccinated students to stay home.  The parents should do the right thing and enroll their vaccinated kids in public schools and get out from under Christians who wish to do them harm.

      https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/healt … e26dbd0478


      This is what Trump has done to America

      1. wilderness profile image95
        wildernessposted 11 months agoin reply to this

        No, this is what you claim Trump has done to America.

        In fact, this is what liberals have done to America with every increasing rules and "guidance" on how we must live to fit into their vision of the future; how to be a good, obedient, part of the vast nanny state we are becoming.

        It is possible that Trump opened eyes as to just what, and how, liberals are accomplishing this, but in event it is liberals that are doing it, and this stupidity is purely backlash to that nanny state that requires all people to accept the same "guidance" from liberals that know so much better than we do how we should live.

        1. GA Anderson profile image91
          GA Andersonposted 11 months agoin reply to this

          Well damn, I'm getting some popcorn.

          GA :-O

          1. Valeant profile image87
            Valeantposted 11 months agoin reply to this

            While eating that popcorn, we can all wonder why taking a vaccine to avoid dying from a deadly virus makes one part of the 'nanny' state.

            1. GA Anderson profile image91
              GA Andersonposted 11 months agoin reply to this

              Well, if we would just do what we were told we wouldn't have to wonder. Easy-peasy.

              GA

              1. My Esoteric profile image88
                My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

                Or if people would use the brain God gave them to reason their way through issues rather than using it as a paperweight, we wouldn't be in this sorry state either.

        2. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

          Nope, no "claim" about it.  All roads of America's current malaise lead to Trump.  Before Trump, we never had the level of division in America as we do now, at least since the 1900s. 

          Oh your "nanny state" obsession is so much hogwash.  America is so far from being a "nanny state" you can't even see the beginning of it.  I know you are upset that Social Darwinism isn't the be all and end all in America, but that is not what we were founded on.  We left England to get away from your kind of society, after all.  That is why "provide for the General Welfare" is part of the reason we have a Constitution.  Nowhere in the Constitution is your kind of "survival of the fittest" society even alluded to.

          1. wilderness profile image95
            wildernessposted 11 months agoin reply to this

            "All roads of America's current malaise lead to Trump."

            Or course they do.  Like the 20 million illegal aliens residing in our country, that Biden has declared can stay here in violation of our laws...all because of Trump.

            Like the fiasco in Afghanistan...it is obvious that Trump started the war and that he bungled the withdrawal.  Both without sitting in the White House.

            Like the frozen congress, unable to pass the desperately needed infrastructure bill, without having to pass the biggest spending bill in the history of the world that Democrats demand as a prerequisite...Caused by Trump as a bystander.

            Yep.  All our problems caused by Trump. 

            "That is why "provide for the General Welfare" is part of the reason we have a Constitution."

            You're absolutely right...as long as "general welfare" means some specific individuals but not everyone.  While you obviously interpret it that way, I do not believe that is what the framers of our Constitution had in mind.

            1. Valeant profile image87
              Valeantposted 11 months agoin reply to this

              You sure do live in your own alternate reality of misunderstanding the issues.

              Passing a law to give a 5-year pathway to citizenship that includes background checks, paying taxes, and a few other requirements sounds like something that will actually help the economy.

              I guess you missed the part where Trump made some decisions pertaining to the Afghanistan withdrawal before he left office.  Some of those decisions clearly helped create the chaos that enveloped that country before we had finished our withdrawal.  Try and convince anyone that it was a smart move to draw down the troops before we had evacuated our people.

              Not sure I'd call a congress that is debating the issues while passing a bill that has a means to pay for itself frozen.

              And if we're going by what the framers had in mind, women and black people shouldn't be voting.  Time to evolve a bit from what the framers wanted to what is humane.

            2. My Esoteric profile image88
              My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

              The 20 million you refer to are not part of the American malaise.  They are part of a good economy.

              No Trump did not start the war but he DID take part in the withdrawal debacle.  The ONLY way Biden could have avoided the outcome we saw was to put the troops Trump pulled out, back in to prevent the Afghan military from crumbling.

              The Congress was JUST AS frozen under Trump.

              1. wilderness profile image95
                wildernessposted 11 months agoin reply to this

                "The 20 million you refer to are not part of the American malaise.  They are part of a good economy."

                Of course they are.  You just keep telling yourself that.  And then explain how magnificent it would be to take in another 300 million uneducated, unskilled people for the American public to care for.  Just think of what an economy we would have!  It would dwarf even China!

                (At least it would for the year or so it would take for the country to go bankrupt trying to support all those people that cannot support themselves in this strange country.)

    22. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

      The one-man crime wave is under a new investigation.  This time Weschester County is investigating Trump for illegally avoiding taxes.

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/20/politics … index.html

      I wonder if 2022 - 2024 will be spent watch Trump sit in the defendant's chair?

      1. wilderness profile image95
        wildernessposted 11 months agoin reply to this

        "They" will be investigating Trump until the day he has either served his 8 years in the White House OR he makes a (believable) claim he will never run again.

        Until then Democrats will "investigate" him for anything and everything their twisted, evil minds can come up with.  It is, and always has been, about eliminating a political rival that threatens the power of the party.

        1. Valeant profile image87
          Valeantposted 11 months agoin reply to this

          Spoken like a true sycophant oblivious to reality.

          1. wilderness profile image95
            wildernessposted 11 months agoin reply to this

            When do YOU think they will stop, given that Trump is free from prison and still might run?  20 years?  30?

            Surely you don't think they will stop coming up with new "reasons" tomorrow!

            1. Valeant profile image87
              Valeantposted 11 months agoin reply to this

              That you equate all who investigate Trump to just being Democrats is the delusion you sell to yourself.  That you then call them people with twisted, evil minds makes you full on sycophantic.

        2. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

          There is a reason for that WIlderness.  He will never stop doing things that need investigating.  It is not in his DNA to be honest about anything.

    23. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

      Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger plus 7 other patriotic Republicans voted to hold Steve Bannon accountable for his crimes.

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/21/politics … index.html

    24. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

      How ironic! TX Lt Gov Patrick promised pay up to $1,000,000 to anyone -i]"to incentivize, encourage and reward people to come forward and report voter fraud."[/i]

      He just paid out his first $25,000 to PA Democrat who caught a Republican trying to vote twice.

      To date, as far as I have heard, only Republicans have been caught trying to cheat.   

      Does that mean all of these voter suppression laws designed to eliminate Republican cheating might actually suppress the Republican vote?

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/22/politics … index.html

    25. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

      Facebook claims the Capitol protests were organized online. "We know this was organized online. We know that," she (Facebook's COO) said in an interview with Reuters. "We... took down QAnon, Proud Boys, Stop the Steal, anything that was talking about possible violence last week.

      But internal Facebook (FB) documents reviewed by CNN suggest otherwise. The documents, including an internal post-mortem and one document showing in real time countermeasures Facebook employees were belatedly implementing, paint a picture of a company that was in fact fundamentally unprepared for how the Stop the Steal movement used its platform to organize, and that only truly swung into action after the movement had turned violent.



      https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/22/business … index.html

    26. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

      We now know some of the things Trump is trying to hide from the American people in order to protect himself from criminal involvement in the Jan 6th insurrection.

      An act prosecutors reminded us was the first successful impediment to the peaceful transfer of power in America since the Civil War - something Trumpers don't see as a necessity in a functioning democracy.

      Keep in mind as you read this list, executive privilege doesn't extend covering up a crime.

      In the more than 700 pages of documents Trump is attempting to hide are:

      - Handwritten notes, draft documents, and daily logs his top advisers kept relating to Jan 6

      - Memos from Meadows about Jan 6 call logs of Trump and Pence

      - White House visitors' records

      - Working papers from Meadows, the press secretary, and WH lawyer regarding Trump's efforts to undermine the 2020 election.

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/30/politics … index.html

      1. Sharlee01 profile image85
        Sharlee01posted 11 months agoin reply to this

        Just another "hey look over here trump is causing trouble"  Don't look at Biden and all the crisis he is in the middle of"...  Another hold your breath "IF COME".   Nothing to see here another grift  Dem's investigation.  For my money, all their crazy crap has them need deep.in failed accusation in regard to Trump. Most Americans are aware of this.  I look at the Dem Party as a bunch of lackluster grifters. In the eyes of many American's they look very foolish promoting this kind of no there - there investigations. 2022 will show how disillusioned Americans are with the Democratic party. Gosh, it would seem they would change their course...

        Let's face it if there were any incriminating documents they would have met a shredder. But you can keep hoping. Why do you continue to buy into  --- accuse someone of a crime, then try to find a crime? This is unfair, and --unAmerican - But that's how I view the Democrats, unAmerican.

        1. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

          It is sad to see you care so little about the safety of our democracy.  Sad indeed.  We have the first non-peaceful transfer of power since the Civil War and it rolls off your back as if it were, how does your side put it, a walk in the park.

          All you do is deflect from the real problems America is facing by conjuring up this scary image of a country in sharp decline under Biden.  But I look around me and I don't see the country falling apart. I don't see much of a problem at the border today, hell, it has been out of the news since that Haitian thing.
           

          I do see that America has some issues, but nothing good legislation couldn't take care of. 

          - Voter suppression by Republicans is an issue that must be solved
          - Physical infrastructure must be solved and as it stands now, probably will be
          - Social infrastructure is a problem that must be solved and it seems like that is coming to fruition now (if only Jayapal would get out of the way - Right now she is the best friend the Republicans have)
          - Climate change is an existential threat to America and world, just above the existential threat Trump poses to America   That must be solved now or solving all of the others will be pointless. 
          - I see Biden solved another problem today that was left over by Trump - his destructive (to America) tariffs he placed on our allies.


          "Why do you continue to buy into  --- accuse someone of a crime, then try to find a crime?" - You Really don't get it do you?  You appear to have been so fully consumed by the Big Lie that you now imply there was no crime was committed on Jan 6th, that there is zero evidence of a coup, of an insurrection.  Well the evidence has been in your face since June 2020.  The American way, since you have forgotten, is if you see evidence of a crime then you investigate it to find out who is involved (which is what the Committee is doing). If the evidence points to particular individuals, then you charge them. 

          Your position seems to be "I don't want Trump to be guilty, so leave my hero the hell alone". - THAT is unAmerican

          1. Sharlee01 profile image85
            Sharlee01posted 11 months agoin reply to this

            I care about democracy, I personally do not see this new administration respecting democracy in any respect. I in no respect did I condone the riot at the capitol or support the violence that occurred that day. I support the right to protest, be it the Capitol or the corner store.

            In my view --The country is in sharp decline under Biden.   I look around me and see the country falling apart.   In regards to BBB Social infrastructure, you do not have any idea of what all is in the bill as of today that bill has not been presented to the public. So, I am not ready to support something I know nothing about...  Sad to say that would be you.

            I have said repeatedly, ( yet you continue to ignore it.) I did not and do not support the big lie... Period.

            And you have made my point -- If there is evidence of a crime you charge the person. You don't ride the hell out of a person just because
            you can...

            As I have said time and time again --- let me know if Trump is charged. Then we will have something factual to discuss. I think what's sad is that you are so enthralled with Trump,  constantly dwelling on media rhetoric about possible crimes he might have committed

            My position is -  I have no intention of accusing someone of a crime, then trying to find evidence of that crime?  I consider that slander is a crime, and can be proved easily with the evidence of the untrue word spread needlessly to slander a person's character. I consider this purposeful slander dishonest,  abhorrent.    I am not, and never will go along with accusing or even insinuating someone committed a crime without actual evidence. 

            Like I said let me know when Trump is arrested.

    27. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 11 months agoin reply to this

      The noose tightens a little bit more around Trump's neck (maybe the same one he wanted to put around Pence's) for his role in the Jan 6 coup as his records get nearer to being released to the House Select Committee.

      https://us.cnn.com/2021/11/10/politics/ … index.html

      Another insurrectionist will be sentenced next week, possibly to 4+ years for his part in Trump's coup.

      https://us.cnn.com/2021/11/10/politics/ … index.html

      1. Sharlee01 profile image85
        Sharlee01posted 11 months agoin reply to this

        Gosh, our jails will be full of our politicians. Hopefully, you are keeping up with all that Durham is doing. I think Hillary's bunch will take up an entire wing of a federal prison. I would think Biden may pardon the Clinton's, and Obama...  But who really knows?

        I think Durham will finally get to the bottom of the Clinton Hoax. And You will finally be able to see some real charges come out of the DOJ, and it won't be Trump.  But you can hope. Although physical evidence is the key, which there is none in regards to Trump planning an insurrection. But the Russian hoax, Durham has a load of physical evidence and has indicted three lackeys, that will in no respect take a bullet for whoever masterminded the Russian hoax.  Last I heard no one has been indicted for an insurrection?  It is clear 691 people have been charged in the Capitol riot, but Trump is not one of them.

        You can always hope.

        1. Valeant profile image87
          Valeantposted 10 months agoin reply to this

          Clinton hoax?  Like Manafort did not share internal polling data with Russian Intelligence.  So many alternate realities for those on the right.  So much whitewashing of treasonous action from their own political party.

          1. Sharlee01 profile image85
            Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

            Manafort?   He has nothing to do with the Durham case. He has been charged and sentenced, old news.  I do not seek to whitewash his crimes, our courts proceeded accordingly, and he was convicted.   (Verdict. On August 21, their fourth day of deliberation, the jury found Manafort guilty ONLY  8 of the 18 felony counts, including five counts of filing false tax returns, two counts of bank fraud, and one count of failing to disclose a foreign bank account. Judge Ellis declared a mistrial on the remaining 10 charges.) As you see he was not convicted of anything to do with sharing internal polling data with Russian Intelligence.  The allegation of internal polling data with Russian Intelligence was never proven or was he charged with for sharing internal polling data with Russian Intelligence.)

            The Durham investigation is current, and it certainly will be interesting to follow, and see what happens in our courts in regard to the three that have been indicted, and to see where this all goes.  Hopefully, my comment to ESO gave any false information.

            1. Valeant profile image87
              Valeantposted 10 months agoin reply to this

              Like I said, an attempted whitewashing.  You call it a hoax, and then ignore the finding that Manafort, while Trump Campaign Chairman, was directly colluding with the Russians.  This was found after he was sentenced for his other crimes.

              https://www.npr.org/2020/08/18/90351264 … ith-russia

              No matter what the Durham investigation concludes, it will never change the facts that members of Trump's campaign were colluding with Russian Intelligence.  Hence, not a hoax at all.

              1. Sharlee01 profile image85
                Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

                "Senate report concludes."  The facts confirm Manafort was not charged with colluding with Russia. It matters little what a Senate commit concluded.   It was not enough to charge Manafort with any Russian collusion.   That is a serious claim, and if it could be proved, I am confident that Manafort would have been charged. If not by Barr then Garland.  I have to consider fact's conspiracies are what keep us all divided.  Trump has not as of yet been charged with any crimes, yet he is continually slandered by some claiming he committed crimes.

                In the Durham case we have three arrests, let's see how it all played out. Both the DOJ, and the FBI are cooperating with Durham's investigation, and don't forget the Biden DOJ gave all three indictments. I would think there is some there - there. These three would not have been charged without evidence of crimes.  At this point, it's a wait-and-see. However, I think Durham is unraveling a very big crime. Just my view.

          2. wilderness profile image95
            wildernessposted 10 months agoin reply to this

            Really?  Which ones (Republican or Democrat) have been charged with treason?  Or is that just yet another over the top exaggeration on your part?

            (As Sharlee points out, Manafort was not convicted of anything but mundane tax fraud and the like: nothing approaching treason or any other "political" crime.)

            1. Valeant profile image87
              Valeantposted 10 months agoin reply to this

              Did I say anyone was charged with treason or is that you just changing words again?   Something you do so often that it remains why I do not wish to converse with you.

              It does not surprise me that you would not see colluding with a hostile foreign government to influence elections as a treasonous action.  I, personally, do.  Nor do you apparently see an attack on our Capitol with the intent to stop the peaceful transfer of power as treasonous action, but I certainly do.

              Your views are why I remain a single issue voter against any and all GOP that will try and whitewash those events as acceptable.

              1. Sharlee01 profile image85
                Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

                Come on  -- you did say this ---Clinton hoax?  Like Manafort did not share internal polling data with Russian Intelligence.  So many alternate realities for those on the right.  So much whitewashing of treasonous action from their own political party." 

                The context in my opinion points to you referring to Manafort.

                1. Valeant profile image87
                  Valeantposted 10 months agoin reply to this

                  Yes - and then I noted this -
                  Did I say anyone was charged with treason or is that you just changing words again?   Something you do so often that it remains why I do not wish to converse with you.

                  It does not surprise me that you would not see colluding with a hostile foreign government to influence elections as a treasonous action.  I, personally, do.  Nor do you apparently see an attack on our Capitol with the intent to stop the peaceful transfer of power as treasonous action, but I certainly do.

                  And above, your denial that Manafort did collude after a bipartisan group in the Senate proved it and reported it out publicly is you choosing to live in one of those alternate realities that allows you to ignore that your candidate's campaign did actually conspire with our enemies just to gain power.

                  1. Sharlee01 profile image85
                    Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

                    I just hope to keep to facts. In my view as a society, we are more apt to move away from facts. This is dangerous IMO, and one can see the results of this form of mindset is causing a huge divide in our society.

                    I did not find the Jan 6 riot treasonous, in any respect. I found it to be a bunch of people protesting the election, and ultimately causing havoc at the people's house.

        2. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

          "Gosh, our jails will be full of our politicians." - Yes, and most of them Trumpers

          As to Durham, let's take a look at your exageration.

          - One  low-level FBI lawyer with no connection to Clinton or the Democratic party fudges an email.  He pleaded guilty.

          - Sussman, a cybersecurity lawyer, who may or may not have told the FBI he didn't represent Clinton was indicted for lying to the FBI about that.  I know you have already convicted him in your mind, after reading the details of the issue, I seriously doubt he will be found guilty if it goes to trieal.

          - Danchenco, a source for certain allegations in the Steele dossier (which was NOT used as a basis to OPEN the investigation into the Trump campaigns collusion with the Russians) is accused of lying to the FBI by saying he had not discussed the dossier with an unnamed U.S.-based public relations executive.  He has pleaded Not Guilty as well.

          BOY, that is heady stuff, especially when compared to the many indictments, guilty pleas, and guilty verdicts that Mueller obtained along with solid evidence of Trump's obstruction of justice.

          To say you claim is a gross exaggeration, is a gross understatement, lol.

          1. Sharlee01 profile image85
            Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

            Here are all that Meuller indited, none of which implicated Trump... Sorry about that but just the truth. Lots of conspiracy theories but no there -there. All a bunch of nothing.
            https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics … grand-jury

            Durham has indited three people that are were high up in the Clinton Campaign. I feel he will lay out the entire crime this entire bunch committed to including Hillary Clinton.  I am confident about my perdiction.

            I have always claimed I have good faith in Durham, his reputation preseeds him.  Plus, he would be nuts not to retire his career with a huge bang. He will go down in history for bringing the Clinton's into the full light. And it is way over due.

    28. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

      I liked this quote from an opinion piece about the TRUTH catching up with the greatest political con man in US history - Trump

      "Altogether, the picture suggests that the realities of government are catching up to one of the most creative escape artists ever seen in American politics. The truth is out there. It's coming soon."

      1. Sharlee01 profile image85
        Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

        Gosh, I hope you are not holding your breath... Do you realize how many years you have been completely obsessed with Trump?

        Do you care about anything else of a political nature?

        1. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

          Since he threatens the very democracy we live in and keeps America on verge of losing it - NO, because there is nothing more important to me than keeping it.  I wish the same were true for you, but obviously not.

          1. Sharlee01 profile image85
            Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

            WOW. In my view, we have a president at this point that hopes to usher in marxism.  Guess we have a different opinion of the vision we have for America.  Thank God polls show the majority are not buying what Biden or whoever is pulling his strings is selling. Nothing can predict what people are feeling than a T-shirt --- Let's Go, Brandon!
            https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics … joe-merch/

            And I am in full support of Democracy, no it's not the "new form of Democracy of your choice" which is at this point I truly believe is marxism.

            Thank God Americans are now waking up and seeing the fraud the media and this new administration are dishing up. I have said for months --- I had faith they would.

          2. Sharlee01 profile image85
            Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

            Trump is fighting to expose the corrupt Democratic party, and doing a great job at it. He is willing to fight them without any fear and is fighting to keep our democracy intact. I can't believe he is taking on this corrupt bunch, but I am thankful he is. I must smile, to see the discomfort he causes the crooks in Washington.

      2. Sharlee01 profile image85
        Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

        "TRUTH catching up with the greatest political con man in US history" -Dear that would be the Clinton's.

    29. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

      This insightful opinion piece on the collapse of #American #democracy as seen by someone from an authoritarian country is worth the read.

      https://us.cnn.com/2021/11/12/opinions/ … index.html

    30. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

      While not directly related to Trump's coup attempt, this exemplifies how he endangered your and every other American's life by lying about or downplaying the dangers of the pandemic.

      Yet there are those that unfathomably still support him.

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/12/politics … index.html

      1. Sharlee01 profile image85
        Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

        Why have more now died on Biden's time? Did not Trump leave him three vaccines? Why did other world leaders fail so badly in stopping the spread?  Were they all inept as you choose to believe Trump is?  How many more will die under Biden?  He waited too long to take action... He has been in the WH  since Jan 21.  He is not able to solve any of America's problems and they are growing as he worries about BBB.

        Which today it was reported Joe lied about only thoughts making over $400,000 would be paying more taxes. It turns out 30% of the Middle class will be affected, and those making over a million with get a huge break on taxes. He lied once again. Sounds like the "you can keep your doctor " lie. I for one am glad so many American's are stepping up and admitting Biden can't do the job. Polls get worse weekly, even after he got the infrastructure bill passed. Now economists feel this bill will cause more inflation. Like I said every day a problem with this guy.

        And yes, I can see where Trump could win in 2024. So many at this point say if they could do it all over, Trump would win today.

    31. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

      Here are some articles about losing our democracy that, because of Trump's attempting to destroy it, had to be written:

      https://us.cnn.com/2021/11/08/opinions/ … index.html

      https://us.cnn.com/2021/11/11/opinions/ … index.html

      https://us.cnn.com/2021/11/13/opinions/ … index.html

      https://us.cnn.com/2021/11/08/opinions/ … index.html

      https://us.cnn.com/2021/11/10/opinions/ … index.html

      Millions of brainwashed or apathetic Americans are helping Trump kill American democracy by actively supporting his efforts to do so or by sticking their head in the sand hoping he will go away (he won't until he has either succeeded in destroying democracy or he is in jail) or by pretending he is not the evil man he has proven to be.

      1. Sharlee01 profile image85
        Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

        CNN? Come on...

        1. wilderness profile image95
          wildernessposted 10 months agoin reply to this

          But the topic was "Millions of brainwashed or apathetic Americans", right?  lol

          1. Sharlee01 profile image85
            Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

            Yes, so ironic, and really makes one realize how wonderful a gift of a clear mind can be. 

            CNN ratings speak loudly, one does not need to say much more.

            1. My Esoteric profile image88
              My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

              I wish Trumpers had a clear mind, but alas, they have proved over and over again that they don't.

            2. My Esoteric profile image88
              My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

              Since you misread the ratings, your comment doesn't have any merit.

              To do an honest job of it, you need to compared all of the mainstream news outlets and with all of the right-wing propaganda outlets.  The MSN comes out far ahead.

        2. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

          What has CNN have to do with anything.  Unlike Fox, Brietbart, and the rest, they don't fabricate anything.  Anyway, I figured you deflect because you can't take the truth.

      2. Sharlee01 profile image85
        Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

        ""It is so sad when things like this can happen, but so incredibly important to fight for the truth and justice. Only victory can restore one’s reputation."

        — Former President Trump"

        Though you might be interested in this... Trump gets 2 court wins: 'Apprentice' contestant's lawsuit dropped, Cohen case dismissed
        Trump claimed he was 'totally vindicated' by Summer Zervos' decision to drop her case against him.

        "Friday seemed a successful day in court for former President Donald Trump – with one lawsuit against him withdrawn by the complainant and another dismissed by a judge, according to reports.

        In the first case, Summer Zervos, a former contestant on "The Apprentice," ended her 2017 lawsuit against Trump in which she accused the show’s former host of sexually assaulting her.

        In the second case, a New York state judge dismissed a 2019 lawsuit brought by former Trump attorney Michael Cohen, in which Cohen sought $1.9 million from Trump to cover legal expenses."

        When one is innocent it is hard to prove guilt...  Hopefully, Durham will expose the biggest accusations Trump has had to put up with. Hillery's crazy Russian Hoax.

        https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump- … -dismissed

        1. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

          It is too bad Trump is such a liar, those are nice words, but I bet he felt ill when he said or wrote "truth and justice".  When will you understand that all he does is lie to you.

          Nobody knows why Zarvos dropped her suit, maybe Trump threatened her life, I wouldn't put it past him.

          The Cohen case was dismissed on a technicality.  Trump is well known for not paying people.  That is why he can't find good lawyers to represent him.

    32. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

      This is what Trump and his White Nationalist Army is all about - and it is very scary the level of organization they have.

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/19/us/unite … index.html

      1. Sharlee01 profile image85
        Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

        Again CNN --- You do know many just don't trust this form of journalism?  The author of this article in no respect associated her piece with Trump. Not sure why you did, when the author did not find a correlation.

    33. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

      Seems like they found another case of virtually non-existent voter fraud in the 2020 election.  As expected, it was a Republican who did it.

      Too bad all these voter suppression laws by Republicans aren't going after the REAL bad guys - other Republicans.

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/21/politics … index.html

    34. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

      I furthering Trump's attempted coup, Minority Leader McCarthy stands up in the House to deliver a pack of lies about the infrastructure bill.  (It is the fact that he is lying which is furthering Trump's on-goingeffort to destabilize or destroy democracy)

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/20/politics … index.html

      1. Live to Learn profile image74
        Live to Learnposted 10 months agoin reply to this

        Trump did not attempt a coup, no one attempted a coup and there is no on-going effort to destabilize the democracy. Not by anyone on the right, that I can tell.

        I realize the left loves to change the definition of words to suit their fancy but a coup is a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government. No one seized power. No one attempted to seize power.

        A group of people participated in a protest. One that did not involve burning down businesses or looting them. The lies that have been perpetuated by the left concerning that demonstration are staggering.

        1. Valeant profile image87
          Valeantposted 10 months agoin reply to this

          The lying is you trying to deny the actions Trump and his cronies used to undermine a legitimate election beginning in October when he started claiming some votes would be fraudulent.  The illegal calls to elections officials trying to overturn the legal results.  The calls to the DOJ trying to get them to fabricate the outcome.  And then organizing his followers to be in the Capitol on January 6 when Congress was to certify the election.

          1. Live to Learn profile image74
            Live to Learnposted 10 months agoin reply to this

            Were you so upset when HIllary spent 4 years denying she lost? Probably not. Were you as upset when Stacy Abrams claimed she really won an election? Doubtful.  They all whine when they lose. Did anyone overturn legal results? Not that I'm aware of.  Did Barr do anything that remotely resembled an attempt to fabricate an outcome? Not that I am aware of.

            So, you are grossly overstating.  Par for the course.

            1. Valeant profile image87
              Valeantposted 10 months agoin reply to this

              Hillary conceded the next day, and then election interference and Manafort collusion was proven as she noted.  In what world is it appropriate to run the election you're a candidate in as Brian Kemp did? 

              And you remain in denial to anything illicit Trump does.  The Georgia calls are clear election tampering.
              https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 … terference

              https://www.chicagotribune.com/election … story.html

              And apparently your far-right media does not report on the DOJ corruption that was after Barr had resigned for upholding democracy:
              https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/3 … ion-501775

              And this one really lays out the false reality Trump lives in when trying to undermine our elections:
              https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article … eline.html

            2. My Esoteric profile image88
              My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

              "Were you so upset when Hillary delusional you are.  As Valeant said, Hillary conceded the next day, something your boy has failed to do at all so far.  Have you bought into Trump's Big Lie which he is using as a foundation for his coup attempt? 

              As to Stacy Abrams, you made up another fabrication.  She conceded the election as well, although she did say she thought Kemp cheated.

              Rather than deflect to something that is not true you might address what is "overstated" about 1) Trump's illegal calls, 2) Trump's attempt to get DOJ to fabricate the outcome (fortunately, there were still a couple of people there who had the spine to stand up to Trump's bullying), and 3) to legally call his army to DC on Jan 6, but illegally incite them to riot and send them on their way to the capitol to create mayhem.

              You are grossly overstating. Par for the course.[/i]

        2. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

          "here is no on-going effort to destabilize the democracy" - Do I interpret that correctly to say you buy into Trump's Big Lie, which is the foundation of his on-going coup attempt.  You must if you claim there is no on-going attempt.

          Your critique of the word "coup" is called "sharpshooting" and is an attempt to deflect from the real issue.  Everybody knows what is meant by the word "coup".  It describes Trump's attempt to 1) stop gov't from functioning, in this case certifying Biden's win and 2) overturn the results of a free and fair election.  "Coup" does fit for Jan 6 as does the word "insurrection".  Try returning to the issue at hand.


          "A group of people participated in a protest." - BOY, are all in with the "walk in the park" crowd, aren't you? Truly delusional!

    35. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

      Glad to see this happening - Trump lawyers paying the price for spreading the democracy-destabilizing Big Lie

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/22/politics … index.html

    36. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

      Isn't it so SAD that 78,000,000+ American citizens (I have a hard time calling them just American) think what this Boebert woman said is cool and righteous?  It is the same group that don't think too many people are dying from gun violence and from Covid.  It is the same group who endangers their own kids, family, friends, and strangers by not getting vaccinated.

      In what world do those characteristics live up to the American ideals?

      https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/202 … dn-vpx.cnn

    37. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

      More to cement the case against Trump's insurrection -

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/01/politics … index.html

      1. wilderness profile image95
        wildernessposted 10 months agoin reply to this

        Wait.  This Rodriguez heard Trump call for help in enforcing voting laws, went far beyond what was asked - including participating in a violent riot -  and is sorry he did so.

        And that's what you think will help to "cement the case against Trump's insurrection"? You're grasping, Eso, as you always do when it comes to Trump. Had Rodriguez indicated Trump was speaking in the secret code he is accused of, and produced a copy of the translation he received from Trump, you might have a case.  But to do what was specifically denied by Trump, and then indicate sorrow that he did so, bolsters Trump's case, not yours.

        1. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

          You betcha.  A few federal judges think so as well saying those who spoke on Jan 6 need to be held accountable.

          It makes little difference that Trump denied something - he is a serial liar after all and not to be believed in anything he says.

          It sounds like you would want all of the inciting a riot convictions overturned because the judges and juries didn't know what they were doing, lol.

          1. wilderness profile image95
            wildernessposted 10 months agoin reply to this

            Again, wait.  A "few judges" are going public with an opinion on what could very well be the trial of the century without have heard a single argument?  What kind of faux "judge" are you listening to, anyway?

            Whether judges have their equivalent of the Hippocratic Oath or not, they DO have an ethical responsibility to promote fair trials, and giving their weighted opinion (supposedly from their experience) is NOT ethical.  It is intended to influence a jury, nothing more.

            Trumps denial concerned his statements made that day about marching peacefully rather than calling for a riot.  He "denied" the riot by asking for something else instead and by NOT asking for violence.  Of course, that's where the "secret code" that you claim he used (without a shred of evidence) comes into play.

            1. My Esoteric profile image88
              My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

              "A "few judges" are going public with an opinion on what could very well be the trial of the century without have heard a single argument?" - So now you think judges, along with all other non-Trumpers, can't read or hear and be able to form opinions based on what is known.  You don't need a trial to know that 1 + 1 = 2 or 10?

              "What kind of faux "judge" are you listening to, anyway?" - I forgot, you don't read or listen to real news.  But to help you out, it is the patriotic, real American judges trying the insurrectionists.

              " they DO have an ethical responsibility to promote fair trials, " - Oh come on. Virtually every judge out there issues opinions about the world around them.  And how is saying those that instigated the insurrection need to be held accountable an unreasonable thing to say?  Now, if they had said Trump is Guilty, then you might have a point.

              " He "denied" the riot by asking for something else instead and by NOT asking for violence.  " - Oh, give me another break!  How can you focus on one sentence (one to give him cover if he needed it) out of 70+ minutes of otherwise inflammatory speech designed to and was successful at riling up the crowd to fever pitch, falsely believing America was under attack?  Oh, I know how, you will defend Trump beyond all reason for some unknown, fanciful reason. I liken Trump's speech to the one famously given by Patton before sending his troops off to fight and die.

              1. wilderness profile image95
                wildernessposted 10 months agoin reply to this

                "Oh, give me another break!  How can you focus on one sentence (one to give him cover if he needed it) out of 70+ minutes of otherwise inflammatory speech..."

                Please - point to one sentence, just one, where Trump asked the crowd to hang a legislator.  Or even physically break into the Capital.  Or taze a single cop.  Or even to break a single window at the Capital.  anything where Trump specifically asked for any form of violence (not your "interpretation" of his "secret code", but an actual request for violence.

                Can't do it?  Then you should quit repeating that he DID ask for violence, simply as a matter of honesty and integrity.

                1. Valeant profile image87
                  Valeantposted 10 months agoin reply to this

                  And there we go again with Wilderness changing what was said and then claiming you said something that only he heard.

                  What Eso said:  'How can you focus on one sentence (one to give him cover if he needed it) out of 70+ minutes of otherwise inflammatory speech designed to and was successful at riling up the crowd to fever pitch, falsely believing America was under attack?'

                  What Wilderness claims Eso said:  '...you should quit repeating that he DID ask for violence.'

                  Eso did not claim Trump asked for violence.  The claim is that Trump's speech incited people to violence - which many, including those two federal judges and in the days following the attack, Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy both also confirmed as views - can plainly see.

                2. My Esoteric profile image88
                  My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

                  You are just being obtuse again.  You know as well as I do that the law doesn't require such specific threats like that - that is why it is called "inciting".  It is clear to most people that the words he did use would have the likely outcome that actually happened.  That is all that is needed to be proved.

                  1. Valeant profile image87
                    Valeantposted 10 months agoin reply to this

                    Let alone he was pushing the baseless narrative that Congress was certifying a decision that was 'stolen' from them.

                  2. wilderness profile image95
                    wildernessposted 10 months agoin reply to this

                    No - it is clear to you, seen through your own bias and hatred of the man that he said those things.  Most people heard what he said rather than what you think he meant.

    38. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

      Justice Department prosecutors say they have evidence that an alleged rioter who brought a gun to the US Capitol on January 6 was targeting both House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and then-Majority Leader Mitch McConnell. - Yep, just a normal visitors' day and walk in the park!

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/03/politics … index.html

    39. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

      In normal times when it is an employers labor market (which is most of the time) separations are driven by layoffs.  In times like these, they are driven by "quits".  Right now, the "quits" are more than three times higher than "fires".  This means people, regardless of what they say in the polls, feel the economy is strong enough to risk quitting and finding another job.

      The jobs report "jobs added" number is the difference between the number of hires (many of which are people who quit) and the number of "fires".  I am guessing those who are forecasting are getting the number of "quits" wrong. After all, why would somebody give up a job when, as conservatives want you to believe, the economy sucks?  Maybe because people really think the economy is good.

      As a side note, the 4.2% suggests strongly that everyone who wants a job in America, has a job.

      Finally, the participation rate finally ticked up, again suggesting an improving economy.

      Thank you President Biden.

      1. wilderness profile image95
        wildernessposted 10 months agoin reply to this

        Just guessing, but I really doubt that people are thinking "Hey - the economy is great so I'll look for a job I like better". 

        Instead I would imagine the process to be something like "There are job ads everywhere and nobody can find workers.  I can quit, easily find something else at a higher wage".  After all the news about high inflation that may well be a part of the thinking as well: "I better find something paying better or I'm going to be hungry with all this inflation".  Fear rather than happiness with the good economy is likely driving many to look for something better.  Or just greed, take your pick.

        1. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

          Your guess would be wrong then.  1) That is what is being reported by economists surveys, 2) what else explains the number of "quits" being 3 times higher than layoffs, and 3) and why aren't quits so much higher in a poor economy?

          I find it ironic that conservatives main deride people in low wage jobs not simply quitting and finding a higher paying job.  Now you are calling them greedy.

      2. Sharlee01 profile image85
        Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

        " This means people, regardless of what they say in the polls, feel the economy is strong enough to risk quitting and finding another job."

        How in the hell do you come up with such a matter-of-fact statement? I do know you believe what you say is the bottom line,
        the last word...  But this statement takes the cake.

        There are "likely" many variables that "may" be a reason to quit one's job.

        One reason could be they are at present getting free cash per child... One reason they decided to stay on unemployment until it ran out...

        One reason, they hated their job to begin with.

        I would bet not many would even feel our economy is "doing so well"... Not sure if you realize we are in a period of growing inflation.

        1. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

          "How in the hell do you come up with such a matter-of-fact statement? " - Because I read what is reported, analyzed, and not opinion by reliable news outlets.

          https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2021 … their-jobs

          https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/ … signation/

        2. Valeant profile image87
          Valeantposted 10 months agoin reply to this

          Not sure if you realize we are in a period of growing inflation....

          ...When looking at year-over-year comparisons and trying to normalize the ridiculously low inflation that we had during the height of the pandemic by then comparing it to the once-in-a-lifetime recovery.

          Some of us aren't panicking over this as we understand that these are not normal years to be comparing to historical trends.

          1. Sharlee01 profile image85
            Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

            Point taken...

        3. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

          "One reason could be they are at present getting free cash per child... One reason they decided to stay on unemployment until it ran out..." - That is just a conservative trope and, while there are a few exceptions, has been proven NOT to be true. But, I suspect you keep on pushing this piece of misinformation even though you have nothing to back it up

          "One reason, they hated their job to begin with." - Yes, that is one of the reasons people quit.  Is it not reasonable to think that the economy must be relatively strong before a person who hates their job has the confidence they can find another job before they quit?

          Not sure you realized inflation is relatively not that bad, right now.  Even as I right, oil prices are sinking (down 22%) which should put the brakes on inflation growing any more.

          Another topic: There has been some analysis out that suggests that if SCOTUS takes away a woman's control over her own body, which seems likely right now, that the blowback from Americans, especially women, will kill any chance the Republicans to take back the House and Senate.  Do you agree?

          1. Sharlee01 profile image85
            Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

            I am for keeping Roe as is.  Unfortunately at this point, our society has the need for abortion. My thoughts are vast on this subject.

            I don't think the media has this right, I think Roe will be used as precedent and left alone.

            If it is tossed out, I am not sure how it would play in 2022 with women.

            I think women's views are complicated on the subject of abortion, maybe another 50 -50 split.  Plus, women seem to be concerned with many things right now. So, it will depend on what the current party does in many areas - economy, education,  crime, and immigration. Women these days are very diverse in what concerns them the most.

            1. My Esoteric profile image88
              My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

              All true, except the 50-50 (unless men are more pro-choice than women are, lol)  Roughly 19% of Americans say a woman should not have the right to choose. https://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx

              My personal view on it is that as a personal choice for my wife and I, I oppose abortion and favor adoption instead.  That said, I may get overruled.  BUT, I also believe that I do not have the right to tell a woman what to do with her own body until the time of viability.

              My gut tells me Republicans are in deep doo-doo it Roe is reversed.



              BTW - This is where I got my 22% decline in oil prices - https://www.rigzone.com/news/commodity/

              1. Sharlee01 profile image85
                Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

                Good website, I saved it.

                The “political attack” on fossil fuels as of recent,  could have added or removed the incentive for investment in the oil sector. Even despite its lingering importance of oil.  I read that that 84% of the world’s energy demand last year was met by fossil fuels.



                So, the issue for me is not the oil price at this moment, the issue is the pandemic, and will the price of oil go higher in a truely fully reopened world? Few are investing in oil right now. However, the world is still consuming fossil fuels.   So oil could certainly go much higher, and that can definitely escalate inflation. Some analysts are predicting oil rising to $150.00 a barrel in 2022.

                I think the only thing that’s could knock the oil price down would be lockdowns in America. I truely feel the new variant scare is why oil corrected itself a bit last week. The price fell on the very news of this new scare.

                Lot's of variables to consider, it will be interesting to see if analysts are correct in regard to the price per barrel rising to $150.00.

                1. My Esoteric profile image88
                  My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

                  I think it will be a very long time before the world is "fully opened".  So long as there are anti-vaxers, and covid deniers (yep there are many of those still hanging around), and the pandemic remains politicized, then Covid will never become noise in the background.  If America and the world do a much, much better job of getting people vaccinated, variants will keep popping up each year. Sooner or later, one will come around that will defeat what we have done so far and put us back to square one.

                  I am now pessimistic that America will ever reach heard immunity because of the political resistance to getting vaccinated. If we do, it will be a very long time from now  If that becomes true, then today, with all of its pandemic related problems, will be the new normal.

                  1. Sharlee01 profile image85
                    Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

                    Hopefully in the next few weeks, we will see at least 80% of American's vaccinated, add in the citizens that did catch COVID and lived -- about 49,959,112 so far. We will have a pretty good herd.  Hopefully, it will be big enough to decrease the infection of mutations. That's where a problem could occur. I am very anxious to hear more about the latest strain.  Hopefully, this virus will denture in a way that eradicates its virulence. I can't see it going away altogether, most viruses don't. We still have strains from H1N1 from 2009. it has well denatured itself to a lesser type of flu. I hope the world will come together to vaccinate counties that just don't have the resources to run a vaccination plan.

                    "The White House announced on Monday that 70 percent of adults in the U.S. are fully vaccinated against COVID-19 and that 80 percent of adults have received at least their first shot."  https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/5 … -partially

    40. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

      As Trump attempts to overthrow Biden, Biden faces a trio of anti-democratic challenges, all just as dangerous as the other: Russia, China, and Trump.as this analysis investigated.
      https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/07/politics … index.html

      1. Sharlee01 profile image85
        Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

        CNN ?  Not sure if you have kept up with the faulty reputation they have earned. Warner Media will be taking over the first of the year and has indicated they will provide a more solid news platform. No more bias BS hopefully. 

        "John Malone says WarnerMedia-Discovery getting rid of CNN would be the ‘coward’s way out’"  "There’s a place for CNN in the proposed $43 billion combination of WarnerMedia and Discovery, billionaire media mogul John Malone told CNBC
        “A coward’s way out would be to sell [CNN] or spin it off and then sell it,” said the cable TV pioneer and longtime chairman of Liberty Media."

        “I would like to see CNN evolve back to the kind of journalism that it started with, and actually have journalists, which would be unique and refreshing,” said the cable TV pioneer and longtime chairman of Liberty Media, which is a major shareholder in Discovery. “I do believe good journalism could have a role in this future portfolio that Discovery-TimeWarner’s going to represent.”
        Source --   https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/18/john-ma … out.html#:

        So, they will have a second chance, hope they don't blow it... It will naturally be a big shock to devotees systems, but the change in platform is well needed.

        At any rate, Biden should stop the blame game. His troubles come to form his own weak way of Governing, and the disrespect he has earned due to his lack of problem-solving.   Blaming others just confirms his weak character in my view.  Russia and China just see they can take advantage of such a weak president. I would think Iran also realizes this as a plus.

        You have seen polls on Bidens foreign policies --- Feb 2021
        "President Joe Biden begins his term with a majority of Americans having confidence in his ability to handle international affairs. In a new Pew Research Center survey, 60% of U.S. adults have confidence in Biden on foreign policy" source  https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/20 … rm-begins/

        Today his polls show he is at 38% approve 59% disapprove of his job in regard to foreign policy. source --  https://news.gallup.com/poll/357545/bid … water.aspx

        Another poll I follow has steadily shown Global Leaders
        approval of Biden. falling weekly.  he is now underwater.
        source ---  https://morningconsult.com/global-leader-approval/

        Biden needs to stop playing the blame game and start down a path of solving problems, not just talking about solving problems... Words are cheap.

        1. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 9 months agoin reply to this

          "CNN ?  Not sure if you have kept up with the faulty reputation they have earned." - You do know you are actually referring to Fake Fox News.  CNN's reputation is doing just fine.  For example, they got rid of Chris Cuomo of basically lying to them - noble thing to do.  Yet what does Fox do with much, much worse liars like Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingram, Maria Bariromo, Jeanine Pirro, to name just a few. Everyone should have been fired long ago.

          The latest (8/21) "trust" poll, has MSNBC at 90%, followed by Fox at 89%,  and then BBC, ABC at 88%, and CNN at 87%. 

          The previous poll (2/21). however, changed things up a bit.  The most trusted news source was MSNBC at 93%, CNN at 92%, BBC at 90%, ABC at 88%, PBS at 87%, and Fox at 86%

          Then a year ago it was CNN, BBC, Fox, MSNBC, ABC at 90%.

          So, do you want to reconsider your trashing of CNN's reputation.

          You probably need to read up of the AT&T spin off of WarnerMedia which will merge with Discovery.  CNN is going nowhere and doesn't need to become "a more solid news platform" - it already is a very solid platform.  It is the conservative channels that are very shaky and need a LOT of help.

          If Malone says that about CNN, I can't imagine what he would do to Fox.  That said, here is what the new owner of CNN says: The prospect of CNN ownership "is something we take so much pride in," Zaslav told Harlow. "So we'll invest in it and try to continue to do what you guys are doing, which is tell great stories and be a great news brand."

          And just WHO is Bide, our very strong president, blaming?  Trump did it ALL the time, but I haven't really heard Biden blame anybody.  He may be pointing out the truth, but telling the truth is not blaming, is it.

          "not just talking about solving problems... " - As I just proven, that is delusional talk

    41. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

      What I have noticed is the more outrageous the LIE, the more Trumpers love it.  It is amazing how for so many American citizens have sunk.  Perdue has already gotten into the Trump muck, lying about Kemp.

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/08/politics … index.html

      1. Valeant profile image87
        Valeantposted 10 months agoin reply to this

        Anyone who even mutters that lie is an automatic disqualification for elected office in my mind. 

        Question to people like GA, who seems to be able to see through some of that bullcrap, is whether he would support someone who chooses that alternate reality still because their other policy agendas align or whether they would abstain or even vote across the aisle to preserve democracy.

        1. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

          Good Question!

          For example, will Georgia non-Trump Republicans vote for Perdue (who also supports the Big Lie) after a series of lies like this one he recently uttered on Fake Fox News' Russian mouthpiece Sean Hannity's show?

          "Over my dead body will we ever do what Kemp did, and that is turn our elections over to Stacey Abrams,"

      2. Sharlee01 profile image85
        Sharlee01posted 10 months agoin reply to this

        Trump? Last I knew Biden is president. A bit of current news that affects us all, the poor taking the real brunt of Boden's poor Governing

        US economy
        US inflation rate rose 6.8% in 2021, the highest increase since 1982  --  For six months in a row price increases were seen across many sectors, including gas, food, and housing.

        "The US inflation rate rose 6.8% over the last year, the highest increase since 1982, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported Friday morning.

        Inflation rose 0.8% in November after rising 0.9% in October. Price increases were seen across many sectors, including gas, food, and housing. This is the sixth month in a row the US is seeing price increases.

        Ahead of Friday’s data release, Joe Biden released a statement saying that the inflation numbers “does not reflect today’s reality”. REALLY JOE?  He is not living in reality, and citizens are not any longer willing to buy into his Emperor with no clothes non-sensible statements. The writing is on the wall, and they see cash leaking out of their budgets at an astronomic rate.

        “It does not reflect the expected price decreases in the weeks and months ahead, such as in the auto market,” Biden said in the statement. RELLY BIDEN?

        Again words that hold no common sense.  He really seems to think his words will fix all, while all falls apart due to we have no one in that White House Governing.
        https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59573145
        https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 … since-1982

        IMO --  Time for Biden to toss in the towel, he is quickly ruining the country on all levels. Congress needs to act, and act now.  He is stumbling around in a daze, reading promoters, and even adding the footnote at the end of the speech   "End of message"...    He has no business in the office of the presidency.  We put the country in danger with this man in office.

        1. Valeant profile image87
          Valeantposted 9 months agoin reply to this

          Knew this was coming.  Comparing year-over-year inflation to a once in a lifetime pandemic year and seeing that as an issue is stupid.

          Once Biden fixes the supply chains that broke under Trump's disaster pandemic response, inflation will normalize.  Until then, we get to listen to your monthly misguided blame game.

          1. Sharlee01 profile image85
            Sharlee01posted 9 months agoin reply to this

            You had to know this was coming -- LOL

            Yes, we had a once in a lifetime pandemic, IMO the minute Biden walked into that office, and decided COVID was his only Trump card, we were in trouble. He lacked the common sense to get the country back to work, not pay them to stay home... We were dealt a bad hand, but we needed to buck up and do our very best at living with a pandemic. He played the wrong card, and now he is playing the blame game.

            The supply chain has made only slight progress and will take a very long time to be back to what could be considered normal.  Trump supplied the country with vaccines, all Biden needed to do was pull the country together to take the vaccine. His message was too confusing, people don't trust him or his COVID team. Hey, I always have said the biggest mistake Trump ever made was Fauchi...  I smart president would have replaced him the minute the public lost trust in him.  His Trump card COVID no longer is worthy of playing. he needs to solve problems! I pray he realizes he is president --- he needs to solve problems, not create them. he needs to stop listening to whoever is whispering in his ear, with all their BS --- and Govern.

            I do blame Biden totally, and I will continue to offer polls, not my voice but the voice of the majority.   I realize he is your guy, but I don't care for the way your guy is running America into the ground. I hope your guy makes a turn about and starts doing better...  He has time to do just that. At this point, he scares me big time.

            1. Valeant profile image87
              Valeantposted 9 months agoin reply to this

              Trump does get credit for the vaccines.  He also gets dinged for undermining the scientists charged with giving the information and hiding from his supporters the fact that he got vaccinated in secret.

              Then he ran a campaign to undermine Biden's legitimacy by saying that the election was stolen.  And yet, you blame Biden for people not trusting him?  You must be blind to causation.

              And that blindness extends to all the things Biden has accomplished.  He has been solving problems and passing legislation.  Just because you are ignorant to it and listen mostly to the right-wing echo chamber you live in, does not make it true. 

              We all know you will offer polls, just try and see all the polling.  You do tend to latch onto the most negative while ignoring the more moderate ones that favor Biden.

              The fear you feel is the programming they feed you.  Instead, study the history of how democratic policies have made the country better.  Clinton - balanced budget, great economy.  Obama - stabilized the economy after Bush, then economic and record job growth.

              1. My Esoteric profile image88
                My Esotericposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                "Then he ran..." - "Is Running, lol

                That is true - it is demonstrable that America, under liberal rule fared much better than under conservative rule. (I have to put it in those terms because of the Great Flip back in the 40s and 50s.)

            2. My Esoteric profile image88
              My Esotericposted 9 months agoin reply to this

              "He lacked the common sense to get the country back to work," - Sorry, that, of course, is truly FALSE.  Unemployment down to 4.8% and almost 6 million jobs added to the economy.  You want to try the TRUTH this time?

              "not pay them to stay home..." - Again, FALSE. Just more conservative lies

              1. Sharlee01 profile image85
                Sharlee01posted 9 months agoin reply to this

                Once again IMO this is due to unemployment ran out, people returning to work... No more no less, does make a nice stat but just shows people realizing it's time to get back to work.   what I said was ---  He lacked the common sense to get the country back to work, not pay them to stay home...
                IMO he paid them to stay home. Again my opinion.  You frequently call or refer to me as a liar, this is uncalled for and shows a lack
                of social skills. Most of your posts are very much your opinion, we don't in any respect agree on most subjects or the way you handle a
                conversation.

                1. Fayetteville Faye profile image61
                  Fayetteville Fayeposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                  Arkansas Gov. Mr.  Asa Hutchinson directed our  state in May to end the federal unemployment program over the summer, citing worker shortages.

                  The following Axios study suggest that ending the benefits had little impact on job growth.

                  https://www.axios.com/local/nw-arkansas … t-arkansas
                  I believe there are several issues that have impacted or confounded people's heading back to work. But undoubtedly, some did not want to return to work (though $300 is not much of a benefit even here). People with this view certainly don't make up the entire pool of unemployed. 
                  Politicians insult our intelligence When they continue to give us such overly simplistic and general arguments.

                  1. wilderness profile image95
                    wildernessposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                    I think you're absolutely correct that it wasn't just the federal unemployment, or extended state unemployment, that is keeping people home.  Fear of COVID is likely a big reason, the ready access to a new, perhaps better, job is in there, as is the hope that a better salary might come along if they just wait a little longer.

                    But I think the massive giveaways also play a big part.  The stimulus checks, the money to parents of children, the assurance that rent does not need to be paid - all of these things are a part of it, too, and a big part.

                  2. My Esoteric profile image88
                    My Esotericposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                    Wes, I have read similar studies.  All those governors who did that was hurt people unnecessarily.

                  3. Sharlee01 profile image85
                    Sharlee01posted 9 months agoin reply to this

                    I noted that Arkansaw 4.4% in June and record show by end of Oct 3.7% it appears unemployment dropped steadily in Arkansaw from June to Oct.  Actually, the majority of the 25 states that cut the unemployment benefits early did much better than those that did not cut benefits.

                    Here in Michigan, we did not discontinue extended unemployment on Sept 4,  in June we were at 5.1% we are now above 6% unemployment and growing. We are hoping now that the unemployment has been cut we will see people return to work.

                    In my view states that had a high count of infections from COVID were more fearful to return to normal. Michigan had a Governor that had the strictest of mitigations and made much of the population fearful. We unfortunately had and have some of the highest infection rates when compared to other states. At this point, our hospitals need the Federal government's help to obtain more vents as well as the medical staff.

          2. My Esoteric profile image88
            My Esotericposted 9 months agoin reply to this

            That is soooo true.

        2. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 9 months agoin reply to this

          "Trump? Last I knew Biden is president. " - What has that got to do with anything.  Besides, Trump needs to be talked about because he is a clear and present danger to our democracy! It is a shame you can't see that.

          Inflations, many economists are saying it has reached its peak, I believe it.

          "“does not reflect today’s reality”. REALLY JOE?  " - Yes, really.  The latest numbers do not reflect the decreases in energy prices. - So, who is not living in reality?

          It is Trump who had no business being in the presidency, he is nutso and everything you accuse Biden of, but you can't see it.  Instead, you can't see it. Nor can you see that Biden is really helping America out of the Dark Ages Trump put us in.

          Biden can't be ruining a country that Trump already destroyed.

          1. Valeant profile image87
            Valeantposted 9 months agoin reply to this

            'Biden can't be ruining a country that Trump already destroyed.'

            Good luck getting Sharlee to acknowledge that statement.

          2. Sharlee01 profile image85
            Sharlee01posted 9 months agoin reply to this

            "What has that got to do with anything.  Besides, Trump needs to be talked about because he is a clear and present danger to our democracy! It is a shame you can't see that."

            This would be your opinion. I don't agree, I find ruminating on Trump is very much odd.

            Inflation all I can do is offer my opinion, it is getting worse, (I offered stats in the last comment) and will be around for a couple more years.

            "The US inflation rate rose 6.8% over the last year, the highest increase since 1982, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported Friday morning.

            .  "The latest numbers do not reflect the decreases in energy prices. - So, who is not living in reality?"   

            Sorry, these are the very numbers that came out yesterday... UNless you don't want to believe the stats?

            Inflation rose 0.8% in November after rising 0.9% in October. Price increases were seen across many sectors, including gas, food, and housing. This is the sixth month in a row the US is seeing price increases.

    42. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

      Great News.  Appeals Court hand Trump another expected defeat saying Trump is not the president and has no recourse to executive privilege if the REAL president doesn't assert it.

      Only two steps left to getting one step closer to bringing the justice America deserves.  With luck and God willing, the full appeals court will turn the appeal of this latest loss down and the Supreme Court does likewise given there is absolutely no rational Trump can use to hide the facts.

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/09/politics … index.html

    43. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

      Trump, the hero and pope-like figure to some of you, is totally nutso.  Here is is latest.

      Trump accuses Netanyahu of disloyalty for congratulating Biden after 2020 win: 'F**k him',

      This is what 75 million Americans love about this egomaniac:

      [i["There was no one who did more for Netanyahu than me. There was no one who did for Israel more than I did. And the first person to run to greet Joe Biden was Netanyahu. And not only did he congratulate him -- he did it in a video. [/i] - the video was the kicker.

      And Trump keeps trying to overturn the 2020 election with his B[g Lie that the same 75 million Americans have been brainwashed into believing.  SAD

      Yep, pure presidential material for 2024, lol.

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/10/politics … index.html

      1. Fayetteville Faye profile image61
        Fayetteville Fayeposted 10 months agoin reply to this

        The fact that Mr. Trump tried to overturn a legitimate election and that he was able to convince many that the election was "rigged" and "fraudulent" is still shocking.
        I see him as an aspiring dictator with a penchant for lying.
        I think it would be a mortal wound to our democracy if he decides to run in 2024.
        But quite honestly I'm just as concerned about the brand of politics he's inspired and those who have taken up the torch.
        I personally don't want to see any candidate  who is tied to supporting the big lie.

        1. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

          Absotutely!!

          I would, however, modify two phrases you used: "tried" to "still trying" and "decides to run" to "wins".

        2. Sharlee01 profile image85
          Sharlee01posted 9 months agoin reply to this

          Just one republican budding in here --- I voted both times for Trump. I in no respect supported what is called "Big Lie".   I liked how he Governed, his job performance, I felt the country was safe under Trump, I liked the economy and the direction he was taking the promising Obama economy, I liked his immigration policies, I enjoyed feeling I had a president that was ready and willing to pull out of long time wars I never approved of, I liked his vision with making the US energy independent ( Because although the climate needs tending we are not any longer energy-independent but now just using the same amounts of energy, but buying it from other countries, where we have no say in how they harvest oil and get it to market crossed our oceans... )  In my view, this is a poor way to say we are offering a solution to preparing our climate. We have one atmosphere... We have oceans that no matter where oil leaks, it is still a leak...  Shell games are for the unintelligent in my view.

          In summation, I hope Trump does not run in 2024. I do hope whoever runs respects that Trump's policies are what half the country enjoyed, and incorporates them in their own agenda.  At any rate, I will be voting Republican, out of pure fear, and the realization that in my view offer nothing that resembles the America I have come to love, and prefer.

          1. Valeant profile image87
            Valeantposted 9 months agoin reply to this

            Half the country enjoyed?  Trump's approval rate never reached half and was closer to about 40%.

            Trump was the most unstable president we ever had, governing by whim or whatever served his own purposes.  His immigration policy, specifically the child separation policy, was deemed a human rights violation and will end up costing the country billions due to the harm it caused those families.  He is the Joe Arpaio of presidential immigration policy.

            While the cutting of regulations and taxes did improve upon the economy in some respects, that came at a cost in national debt.  Saddling future generations with trillions to make himself look good in the immediate is not something to brag about.

            And those economic gains get to be viewed through the lens of a man who ignored the warnings about the Wuhan Lab that were given to him in 2018.  Ignored warnings that did lead to a pandemic that erased many of his gains and left him with a net negative job creation over four year and $7.8 trillion wracked up onto the national debt - a four-year record.

            A president who does not read briefings, thinks his own inexperienced opinion is better than all others due to his narcissism, and one who ignores science did not make the majority of America feel very safe at all.

            1. Sharlee01 profile image85
              Sharlee01posted 9 months agoin reply to this

              "Trump was the most unstable president we ever had, governing by whim or whatever served his own purposes."

              He made decisions quickly, and problems never became worse due to being indecisive.  Not ever words or 90-day committees...

              Biden is using the same cages Obama but and used... We have over 100 thousand unaccompanied children in America due to Biden's poor immigration stance.  These children came with no parents to be separated from. He invited them to come. Trump left 500 children in America's care due to separation at the border.  These children were children whose parents would not take them back when contacted, some had false information in regard to who their parents were. Odd you would bring up abandon children, these children sent in alone were sent by their parents.

              I am not in any respect being drawn back into the timeline of what Trump knew when, and what he was told by Fauchi and others in CDC and WHO. That is where I put the blame, the Scientist he relied on for information... All there have timelines available, as well as all of Fauchi's and when he said what.  I feel I took my facts from good sources. Timelines did not lie. Media did... I feel very confident my opinion was formed by facts, not talk jocks.

              How in the world could you bring up the deficit? This is laughable... Do you know the cash Biden has in 10 months? Not sure how deep a hole you hope to dig for yourself, but in my view, you are in over your head.

              Trump held more briefings than I have ever witnessed any president having.

              "and one who ignores science did not make the majority of America feel very safe at all."

              I must say this is one of the most ridiculous statements I have heard in a long time. A statement that clearly can't be backed up by any proof...

              This man from the first case of COVID took it upon himself to form a team of scientists.  The same team Biden has relied on ... Both the task force and Operation warp speed that's the very teams Biden used. Then God... or we would be in so much more trouble than we find ourselves with so many more dead, so many more infected...

              It was Fauchi that gave his sarcastic giggle when he talked about Trump's prediction to have a vaccine within 8 to 12 months... We have three vaccines in 8 months, and Fauchi wearing an egg on his simply liberal face...

              Facts are hard to take are they not?

              1. Valeant profile image87
                Valeantposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                Your ignorance of basic facts makes you the last person to lecture someone on the topic.  Proof of Trump ignoring science, it's all over the place if you'd care to open your eyes.

                Trump on Science:
                This man from the first case of covid downplayed the severity, costing American lives.  He lied to you, to all of us.  It'll just go away on it's own one day was a great statement.

                The science clearly said masks work, but there you have Trump railing against their usage.

                And again, Trump's administration ignored the science when warned a year before the pandemic.  That's how we got where we are today.
                https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ … rpt-474322

                1. Sharlee01 profile image85
                  Sharlee01posted 9 months agoin reply to this

                  There is nothing in my comment that is not factual. You can't dispute my facts so as always you become very defensive. If something in my comment is not factual, quote it. I will give sources as I am known to do. I don't spout off with statements that I can't back. I do offer some opinions, and as a rule, I can back those up as well. It would seem more ignorant to make an attempt to insult someone just because you can.

                  I will keep an eye open for any quotes you had a problem with.

                  I did look at your article out of politeness---  I certainly did not find any information that Trump himself was made aware of a problem virus in Wuhan in 2018. Not sure how one could hold him responsible for the discretion of his administration not notifying him.

                  1. Valeant profile image87
                    Valeantposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                    Facts?  You can't even spell Fauci correctly. 

                    It's not really the facts you listed but the numerous ones you left out.  I listed multiple factual events of Trump ignoring the science and even decided to leave out the infamous disinfectant episode that many of his supporters misunderstood while injecting themselves with bleach.

                    And you can sit there and blame Biden for every fault the country has, but when I provide concrete facts that Trump's administration was warned about that Wuhan lab and did nothing, suddenly the man is not responsible?  Your double standards are immense.  Not that I blamed Trump in my claim, I blamed his inept administration for not seeing the dangers and then losing our access to China's labs via his trade war.

                2. My Esoteric profile image88
                  My Esotericposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                  800,000 dead people from Covid.  Trump is responsible for most of those.  Since Delta, Republicans are responsible for most of the rest by not getting vaccinated.

              2. My Esoteric profile image88
                My Esotericposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                "He made decisions quickly," - And as a result, made very poor ones almost 100% of the time.

                "We have over 100 thousand unaccompanied children in America due to Biden's poor immigration stance. " - Sorry. !) Biden has roughly the same immigration stance as Trump, relative the border, just without the draconian implementation and 2) it is the Republican's fault that all of those people rushed the border because they kept lying that the border was open when, in fact, Biden [b]kept it closed[/b\

                "This man from the first case of COVID took it upon himself to form a team of scientists. " - That was for show and we all know it because Trump ignored virtually everything they recommended and trusted quacks and shut down science.  Hydrocloroquine, indeed! LOL

                1. Valeant profile image87
                  Valeantposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                  Scott Atlas - herd immunity through infection.  Case closed.

          2. Fayetteville Faye profile image61
            Fayetteville Fayeposted 9 months agoin reply to this

            I'd like to see our country move away from the "my half" "your half" mentality. 
            Currently I am encouraged by the small sparks of bipartisanship we are seeing. It's the only way our democracy and country will flourish. 
            I find it very positive that we are seeing handfuls of politicians from both parties genuinely working together to get things done.  But I also find It reprehensible that on the Republican side they are chastised for doing so and threatened with their committees being taken away from them. This is just counterproductive.
            Yes, I'm a glass half- full kind of gal.
            "My half" and "your half" must meet in the middle and commit to government with give and take. If every four years the idea is to elect someone just to subvert and  suppress the "other side," we are headed for a world of trouble.

            1. Sharlee01 profile image85
              Sharlee01posted 9 months agoin reply to this

              "I'd like to see our country move away from the "my half" "your half" mentality."

              Nice thought, but in my view not realistic... Who gives in?  And mentally we have two sides due to very diverse different ideologies, and different ideas on which way we hope that America will progress.  Ideologies are very far apart.

              Where do you find even a glimmer of bipartisanship? 

              In my view -- Democracy and country will flourish if we keep to our Constitution, a document that gave us what we needed to keep our Democracy. I find it promising to see a few politicians from both parties are attempting to work together to get things done. These Representatives a hard to find. I must ask, you don't feel the few Dems that are bucking Bidens BBBare not being vilified?  I have read much about how the two that are bucking the bill are being very much vilified, and tormented by citizens in general.

              I am a glass-half-full kind of person also. But, I keep an open mind and don't dance around anything that I find negative. If it'd negative
              outwardly negative, my head stays out of the sand.

              Our Government was meant to be give and take.  It is not at this point.

              " If every four years the idea is to elect someone just to subvert and  suppress the "other side," we are headed for a world of trouble."

              Here is how I have always looked at this --- Every four years we have the ability to glean what we liked about an administration. We have the right to weigh what we thought was good or negative, we have the right to develop an idea of what was the best ideologies, which were the worse.

              It's up to us to determine the best from the worst. We learn, we strive to see what America needs every 8 years... We do our best to research what candidate can fulfill the present needs. 

              In the last decade, we have seen president after president cancels out much of what the prior president did.  It is something to really look at and consider that each president actually canceled on their predecessor. Some do well and one can see there was no vendetta to cast, some not so well... Some cut off our face to spite our nose.

              1. wilderness profile image95
                wildernessposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                Along with your last paragraph, one of the things I see that is of great concern is the refusal to accept defeat, or even a well constructed compromise.

                Examples are abortion and gun control.  Pro-lifers have worked for decades to negate RvsW.  If they can't do it via the law they will use whatever other weapons they can find.  Defund Planned Parenthood, which does an enormous amount of good in this country.  Go after doctors, nurses, even cab drivers that "assist" in getting an abortion.  Never give up the fight no matter what compromise is reached - only the banning of all abortions is acceptable.

                Same with gun controls; When SCOTUS declares for the second amendment, find another route to disarm the public.  Make guns too expensive to buy or own.  Make them ever harder to purchase.  Hold gun manufacturers responsible for what people do with their own gun.  Once more, the fight will not end until the public is disarmed.

                This kind of attitude - Compromise only for today, tomorrow we will try a different method of getting what we actually want - is not acceptable.  IMO.

              2. My Esoteric profile image88
                My Esotericposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                "Democracy and country will flourish if we keep to our Constitution" - I agree.  Too bad Trump and the Republicans didn't

                Cancelling out.  Yes, that is true. Trump cancelled out the good things Obama did and Biden had to cancel out all of the bad things Trump did.

            2. My Esoteric profile image88
              My Esotericposted 9 months agoin reply to this

              I agree, that is why I almost always vote FOR something.  Even though I know Trump would have destroyed America even further, I voted for Biden because I support his agenda (save for leaving Afghanistan).

          3. My Esoteric profile image88
            My Esotericposted 9 months agoin reply to this

            "I in no respect supported what is called "Big Lie"." - If you want to vote for him a third time, you certainly do.  But, if you won't vote for him because of the Big Lie then you have turned a corner.

            "I felt the country was safe under Trump, " - That is truly an unbelievable  statement! There is SO many facts to disprove that

            " I liked the economy and the direction he was taking the promising Obama economy," - You do understand, don't you, that the "promising" Obama economy lasted SIX years before Trump continued what Obama started. Why do you keep changing history?

            "I liked his immigration policies, " - You mean you supported taking children away from their parents as a detergent?  Or forcing people seeking asylum to stay in squalid, dangerous conditions in Mexico, you think that was a good thing? Shame.

            "I liked his vision with making the US energy independent " - LOL. Then you must LOVE Obama since HE is the one who made America energy independent, NOT Trump.

            "we are not any longer energy-independent" - Yes, we still are

            Fortunately, even more people will be voting for Biden for the same reason, out of total fear of how Republicans will destroy America.

            1. Sharlee01 profile image85
              Sharlee01posted 9 months agoin reply to this

              As I have said to you many times. I feel we are in a period where one needs to consider the pros and cons when choosing a candidate. Looking at who would best be able to do the job. In the case of Trump versus Biden, I took many hours looking for anything that would tell me that Biden could lead - I found nothing.  I totally liked how Trump handles the job minus his personality.  Very simply I feel one must be able to solve problems. I had no real choice but ITrump. This is my opinion, you seem to think yours is the last word. That does not float with me. I can respect your opinion, and not seek to criticize it. Your corner just is not my corner. 

              Again I felt safe under Trump, and have offered reasons many times, not willing to beat a dead horse. I certainly do not in any respect feel safe under Biden. And I am very sure the people he left in Afganastan don't either. He is a weak man, and he appears to have no Governing skills at all.

              AS I claimed Trump took Obamas promising economy and made it better. That's how I see it. You are defensive without reason...

              Again I supported Trump's immigration policies. All of them. Migrants knew of the policy when they walked in with their children, I would put all blame on the parent that put their child in danger, and separation. WE have legal means to come to America. That is the last word I have on this subject. You have your opinion on the subject it differs from mine.

              Your energy comment in regard to Obama not even signifying an answer. That is plain out ridiculous And np we are not in any respect energy independent. However, believe whatever you please. In my view, your comment is once again ridiculous. Not sure how you would have the nerve to even write such a statement. Biden has been begging OPEC for oil, and oil before long will be at $100.00 per barrel. I'll get back to you when it does. So, be ready to blame Trump ---LOL

              "Fortunately, even more people will be voting for Biden for the same reason, out of total fear of how Republicans will destroy America."

              You have topped yourself with this one... Guess you ignore the polls and all the negativity that surrounds Biden. That's
              your problem. The Dem voters are supporting him in low numbers. I think the stats show 77% at this point and falling weekly.

    44. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 10 months agoin reply to this

      Isn't it so very sad that those who believe Trump's Big Lie want to perpetuate that lie by being the most enthusiastic to vote in 2022.

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/10/politics … index.html

    45. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      Just went to man the Democratic Register to Vote Booth at the Ruby Red Starke, FL Christmas parade and what did I see high in the sky?  The Big Lie in the form of a sign lying that Trump, lol,  (I guess they are on Santa's naughty list for lying.)  Below it was a booth hawking Trump paraphernalia. 

      We did have one lady who stopped by and confessed she was a secret Democrat.  As she pointed her finger down her throat she admitted her husband was (point, point) a Trumper.  When I asked her if she was registered to vote she said HELL yes she was and walked off with a smile.

    46. My Esoteric profile image88
      My Esotericposted 9 months agoin reply to this

      The Trump propaganda outlet Fake Fox News lost another journalist who TRIED to do an honest job - but they wouldn't let him; Chris Wallace.  He just refused to turn into another Carlson or Hannity, who, whether they know it or not, are mouthpieces for our sworn enemy, Russia.

      Chris moved on to a more honest network - CNN.

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/12/media/ch … index.html

      1. My Esoteric profile image88
        My Esotericposted 9 months agoin reply to this

        You know what one of the most watched shows in Russia is?  You guessed it, Fake Fox News.

      2. Sharlee01 profile image85
        Sharlee01posted 9 months agoin reply to this

        "The person organizing the coups is the then current president, Donald Trump, and his minions.  The nescient coups attempt began months before the election as Trump laid the groundwork to falsely claim the election was rigged in the event he lost in November.  Fast forward to the election and Trump did lose and he started implementing his plan to overthrow the will of the people."

        I assume this is your opinion? I have seen no evidence thus far to substantiate your claims. Or just say it's your opinion.

        CNN format may well be overhauled in 2022  Not sure how your system will take a real news network.

        "There’s a place for CNN in the proposed $43 billion combination of WarnerMedia and Discovery, billionaire media mogul John Malone told CNBC in a recorded interview that aired Thursday.

        “I would like to see CNN evolve back to the kind of journalism that it started with, and actually have journalists, which would be unique and refreshing,” said the cable TV pioneer and longtime chairman of Liberty Media, which is a major shareholder in Discovery. “I do believe good journalism could have a role in this future portfolio that Discovery-TimeWarner’s going to represent.”

        Back in May, AT&T announced a deal to combine its content unit WarnerMedia with Discovery. Under the agreement, AT&T will unwind its $85 billion acquisition of TimeWarner, which closed just about three years ago and form a new and separate media company with Discovery. It will bring together AT&T-owned CNN, HBO and the Warner Bros. studio and Discovery’s channels, including Animal Planet, TLC and its namesake Discovery Channel. At the time of the announcement, the parties had said they hoped to close the transaction in the middle of next year." 

        Guess we will need to just wait to see what goes down.
        https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/18/john-ma … y-out.html

        1. My Esoteric profile image88
          My Esotericposted 9 months agoin reply to this

          Then you haven't looked.  At the moment, it is my opinion, but it is an informed opinion based on an overwhelming amount of evidence that is out in the public sphere.  There is no telling what the committee has learned behind closed doors.  Hell, even Meadow's book and emails/texts that have been made are so damning.

          1. Valeant profile image87
            Valeantposted 9 months agoin reply to this

            It's not an opinion to say Trump began undermining the election results prior to election.  He began programming his supporters to believe that he could only lose if there was fraud.

            Then he and his propaganda networks ran a media campaign to fabricate things they believed were fraud, but that were just their own uneducated misunderstandings about how elections are conducted.

            When those misunderstandings were proven as falsehoods by the courts, they then tried to set aside reality and the laws to remain in power.

            1. Sharlee01 profile image85
              Sharlee01posted 9 months agoin reply to this

              How does one prove someone programmed a group?

              1. wilderness profile image95
                wildernessposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                Which "propaganda networks" does Trump own or operate?

                Which "misunderstandings" were proven false in a court trial?  As none of Trump's how were they "proven false" in courts that accepted no evidence or testimony?

                1. Sharlee01 profile image85
                  Sharlee01posted 9 months agoin reply to this

                  You read my mind. I was starting with one question. I would think he could have given an example of what this mysterious network fabricated in regard to fraud, and a court case to match the fabrication that was heard in court...

                  It's very apparent he believes all of this, and will not or can not just keep to facts when accusing Trump of all these many things. This is just not fair play at all.  As I have said -- pick a crime, condemn him for the crime --- then try to dig up non-existing evidence.

                  This kind of thinking is so half-ass-backward. Not to mention unfair, and dangerous.

                  1. Valeant profile image87
                    Valeantposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                    I'm sorry you need this information spoon-fed to you, I always assume that after you claim to be so educated on these topics that you have heard about obvious cases like the Nevada man who claimed that someone voted using his dead wife's identity and how Republicans and Tucker Carlson all amplified his claims.  Right up until it turns out his cheating, Republican butt got sentenced for the crime.

                    I could certainly list numerous other examples, but spoon-feeding you proof, proof that you don't accept and then forget with a few weeks as you fall back on your own disinformation, gets tiresome.

                2. Valeant profile image87
                  Valeantposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                  Shocker that you take his to mean owns while it was meant as those in support of.  Another example of you seeing words as how you want and not in the entirety of ways they can be used.

                  Your claim that courts did not accept evidence or testimony claim is always a massive lie.  It's not even worth engaging you when you are this deluded.  Especially when we've gone over all this before with you.

                  This is one of those great examples I noted earlier, where we have debunked your BS, and then you return to the same lies.

                  1. wilderness profile image95
                    wildernessposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                    Ah.  If a TV station reports what the President says it means they support that President.  Strange method of assigning their political ambitions, but perhaps it has merit.

                    So?  Point to one case, brought by Trump, that made it into the courtroom for evidence and testimony.  Can't?  Then don't make false claims that a court "proved" anything at all.

                    Yes, there is BS here.  And the same lies we've heard before - that the courts tried Trump's case and found it false.

                  2. My Esoteric profile image88
                    My Esotericposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                    Wilderness loves to use semantics to sharpshoot and make non-sensical points.

                    It is clear he has never read the opinions in any of those 60-odd cases that were tossed in the trash.

              2. Valeant profile image87
                Valeantposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                You lay out all the times he made that claim in the media.  Then you add the testimony of those that attacked the Capitol and claimed Trump motivated them to do it.  Which are multiple cases at this point.

                Then you lay out all the court cases that showed Trump's claims were lies, followed by him continuing to repeat those lies.

                Pretty simple actually and what the January 6 committee, who have stated that Trump bears responsibility for the attack, as did Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy by the way, are in the process of proving.  Not to mention multiple judges that came to that conclusion already also after hearing evidence during trials.

                1. Sharlee01 profile image85
                  Sharlee01posted 9 months agoin reply to this

                  What testimony? Has someone claimed Trump contacted them with a plan to riot at the Capitol?  Does someone have some evidence of this?  Does one have the right to believe or not believe what someone else is saying? How do you prove Trump brainwashed people? Do you not hear how foolish this all sounds. Perhaps it would be wise to just wait and see what this Congressional committee can prove. or will it just be more slanderous accusations against this man, that can't be proved? Not to be rude, but you might want to consider how long you have been promoting things that are not proven to be true. 

                  It is easy for another politician to point a finger, and some did. It would be wonderful to have some proof of your accusations.

                  It's like you are putting a puzzle together that none of the pieces fit. And for four years this has been your thought --- "by the way, are in the process of proving."

                  You are surviving on if comes, that just never come...

                  1. Valeant profile image87
                    Valeantposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                    What testimony?  Well, I guess it's not surprising that you're not following the convictions of the January 6 insurrectionists.  Multiple claims have been made that Trump incited the crowd to violence.  And given the numerous statements by members of Congress who also assign blame to Trump for the attack, even by Republican leadership, that can be submitted as proof. 

                    When considering those things, and adding in who helped promote and organize the event, then direct the crowd to the Capitol after riling them up, it's very easy to formulate a conclusion about who did the programming about a stolen election and feeding an anger that should not have existed unless led to believe a wrong had been committed, when there was no proof that it actually had.

                    To say those statements sound foolish is, as usual, your omission of many factual statements to form a biased opinion to protect Trump and Trumpism, which we all know you to be devoutly tied to.

                  2. My Esoteric profile image88
                    My Esotericposted 9 months agoin reply to this

                    "What testimony? Has someone claimed Trump contacted them with a plan to riot at the Capitol?"  - And of course that (using the word plan) is being as obtuse as Wilderness is.  What you lay out isn't part of the proof needed to prove Trump incited that insurrection.

                    "Does someone have some evidence of this?" - As I just said, you don't need that type of evidence.  What you are talking about is conspiracy, which isn't being alleged vis-a-vis the insurrectionists.  I t may be, however, in Trump's attempt to overthrow the election by other means.  With what has come out lately, it seems to me Trump and Meadow's attempt to get state lawmakers to overturn the results in their states amounts to conspiracy