What lessons shall the new Congresswomen Alexandria Cortez learn?
AS A RABBI, I AGREE WITH AOC: TRUMP IS RUNNING CONCENTRATION CAMPS ON OUR SOUTHERN BORDER
It is deeply problematic, highly partisan—and historically incorrect—to declare that the use of "concentration camps" is to be constrained to the limits of "Holocaust terminology" (itself hardly an academic term.) As scholar Jonathan Katz recently pointed out in the LA Times, the term "was invented by a Spanish official ...during Cuba's 1895 independence war." FDR, notably, also used the term in reference to his Executive Order to incarcerate Japanese Americans during World War II. And enough people have pointed out in recent days the usage of the term by the British suppressing the Boer rebellion in South Africa for it to be elaborated on here.
We Jews do not own this term. But in fact, I would argue it is imperative that we Jews use this term whenever these dreadful facilities are imposed on groups of people other than ourselves. History has shown us that the concentration of humanity into forced detention invariably leads entire societies to exceedingly dark places. This practice did not begin with Nazi policies against European Jewry—nor did it end there.
LINKYou can find opinions on both side of every issue and that by itself does not proof anything or that any one side is right or wrong.
The issue here is very simple. You have people trying to enter our country without a proper documentation or visa. Every other country obey the same rules.
If some of you want an open border, then say so and vote for people that will rescind our immigration laws. Otherwise you have no legitimacy on this issue. You can’t have it both ways. You say you don’t want open borders and yet, when people are caught and kept in holding pens you cry foul...so what is your solution? Put them all up at Motel 6?Although concentration camps existed before WWII, the war has given the terminology a heavy context. Everybody has the images in mind when somebody speaks of concentration camps. Therefore you have to use the term wisely.
The same with fascist, the word is used lightly and as a scolding name. Its a clever strategy for the extreme right to minimalize the weight of the word, so if you label someone a fascist, it’s seen as a scolding name instead of the real meaning.
The same happened with words like communist and socialist. The true meaning of the word changed.
I would think twice before calling something concentration camps. But I completely agree that Jews do not have the monopoly on the word. After the WWII there where other concentration camps. I have not seen pictures of the camps Cortez is referring too. But i can imagine that refugee camps (and Europe has a couple of them as well...) if they are in a bad state and not properly organised can become concentration camps.
Guantanamo Bay for instance is in my opinion a concentration camp too. Where people I being held without trial for years on end and tortured.What? Gitmo is a prison. It was created to house combatants captured in a war. You might not agree with the water boarding tactics to extract information but it is not the same as what goes on in concentration camps of civilians who has committed no crimes.
This is just insane.
What next? What are jails? Are they concentration camps too?
Well, the term "concentration" suggests that there's a concentration of whatever group of people has been imprisoned, so there's that.
However, since WWII, the phrase "concentration camps" has taken on a new meaning - the concentration of a group with the goal of permanently imprisoning and mistreating that group OR of exterminating that group as was the goal with the Jews.
By that definition, at the least, we currently have no concentration camps in the US. I'm not saying that it couldn't happen again.
George Takei
I know what concentration camps are. I was inside two of them, in America. And yes, we are operating such camps again.If you have and if you really feel the way you do, which I question, then all the more reason for you and all Democrats to call Pelosi's office and ask her to honor the president's request for more funds to expand the detention centers (not camps).
However, in regard to the article you referenced by Rabbi Rosen, you and everyone should know he is the founder of "Jewish Voice for Peace" which in reality, promotes boycotts and anti Israel propaganda. He has been listed by the Anti-Defamation League as one of the Top TEN anti-Israel organizations" in the United States.
Rosen lost his integrity long ago. AOC is losing hers even faster. She is allowing herself to be used by the media and the Dems. Her choice.
The Democratic party is responsible for the over flowing holding facilities. They created this crisis with rhetoric that led those south of our border to believe we wouldn't abide by our immigration laws. Shame on them. If anyone wants to call these concentration camps then the true Nazis are the democrats.
I am not shooting the messenger Sharlee01, but . . .
We already have set limits on how many legal immigrants we will accept, but the problem is that the number doesn't apply to asylum-seeking immigrants.
We already have a merit-based legal immigration system, but the problem is that the number doesn't apply to asylum-seeking immigrants.
Currently, anyone that crosses our border can be prosecuted and deported, but the problem is that option doesn't apply to asylum-seeking immigrants.
Excluding the issue of asylum seekers, I think our immigration laws could handle the problem if they were enforced.*
*(The immigration lottery is a different subject)
You say we should limit asylum seekers, but how would you do that? Any limit would face the scenario of that first person beyond the limit, that is truly deserving of asylum status being sentenced to death because we won't open our doors to them.
This is not a black and white issue, but like the lifeboat full of 100 souls that will sink and kill them all if the 101st soul tries to climb aboard, it is an issue that must be faced.
I think that is the problem behind the camps and backlogs. How do you make a judgment between the asylum seeker running from the probable violence of MS13 gangs, and the asylum seeker running from certain death from either political or factional sources?
Again, for the purposes of discussion, not an argument, what "progressive new laws" would you think can address this Kobayashi Maru situation?
GAGA, I missed your this comment. Perhaps the others on this thread have my head spinning? I very much agree that the border problem simply stems from the fact we don't enforce our current immigration laws. We haven't for many years. Which is why we now have a crisis.
I appreciate your opinion, and how you have structured your comment.
"You say we should limit asylum seekers, but how would you do that? Any limit would face the scenario of that first person beyond the limit, that is truly deserving of asylum status being sentenced to death because we won't open our doors to them."
Your statement leads me to the conclusion you would not favor setting limits on migrants that we accept requesting asylum. In my opinion, you may be leaning to the extreme being of the opinion that the majority of asylum seekers are claiming their lives are in danger. One might also suppose many that seek asylum know how to beat our system with the claim their life is in danger.
"I think that is the problem behind the camps and backlogs. How do you make a judgment between the asylum seeker running from the probable violence of MS13 gangs, and the asylum seeker running from certain death from either political factional sources?"
Or those that just hope to make better lives for themselves and possibly their families. This is not a valid reason to request asylum. Yet this just might be what the majority truly desire? So, the problem still comes down to, how many are too many? How do we ascertain truth from lies? Could we consider accepting more migrants by merit, filling actual employment needs? Yes, we do presently have a merit-based policy. However, could we improve this program to include jobs that are not being filled by our own citizens? The very jobs many illegal migrants already fill.
I opt for working on better laws and enforcing them. I also think we need to deter people from thinking they can walk into our country due to the porous border. At this point in our history, I feel we need a wall. Migrants need to present themselves at legal points of entry. This would be a good place to start following our laws.
"This is not a black and white issue, but like the lifeboat full of 100 souls that will sink and kill them all if the 101st soul tries to climb aboard, it is an issue that must be faced."
Very well put. However, one might consider your scenario as dramatic, and seeded with emotion. I see it as that one soul parish either way? If he stays in the water he dies if he is allowed n the boat 101 die... As a nation do we want to go down with the boat or do we survive by making common sense decisions?
Actually, in the state of Texas, Will Hurd a REPUBLICAN as well as others also said it was a waste of money to build the wall and that there was no National Crisis.
So you would take the word of a single Republican over the masses and wishes of over 50 percent of our citizens?
Look at the vast numbers coming across our southern borders...if that is not an invasion and a humanitarian crisis, I don’t know what is?
This crisis has been building for over 20 years and it has reached a breaking point. You may not want to see it but it is not about you or your party. We have tried everything else and none has worked. It is by the process of elimination and desperation that the wall is the last effort to try. If it is not tried, then we might as well close shop, fire all INS and ICE agents and accept the inevitable.
What is at stake is the sovereignty of our nation. If you don’t think that is important then you are sorely mistaken.It would be laughable if it wasn't so freaking serious. Neither Democrats nor Republicans have been ANY help, for the most part, in enforcing our immigration laws, and especially with securing America's borders. Both parties are spineless, for their own reasons, none of which have to do with the good of the country, with law and order.
And yet now, in Texas they are screaming for Congress to do something, because, you know, its a national humanitarian crisis.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politic … ing-crisis
https://www.ktsm.com/news/border-report … -announce/
Lots of "in my opinion" comments from the right on this thread. Mostly the same as Fox News...
And the last bipartisan immigration reform bill, designed by the gang of eight, was scuttled by....wait for it...Republicans in the Tea Party. It's not the Democrats who fail to get things done.
Really? It's been going on for decades, but Democrats share no blame?
What a quaint concept - if something is wrong blame someone else for your failures.Val. could it be both? I mean either have a record on really doing much with immigration.
- Onusonusposted 6 years ago
0She should visit a real concentration camp and be forced to listen to real holocaust survivors, because obviously she failed history class.
AOC should at least visit at least one of our border facilities. Oh, forgot some Dems feel they can just assume, and let it rip... I mean AOC shepherds quite a large flock... Unfortunately, her feed is BS.
AOC didn't call the camps Holocaust camps, The camps the US kept the American Japanese in during WWII is more like it. But you guys always assume the worst.
"Holocaust camps". That is a term that I have never heard.
But I have heard the term "concentration camp", my entire life. And it has always referred to the concentration camps of the Nazi's. The ones with the gas chambers, with the human experimentation to the death, with the destruction of millions of Jews.
It is more than a little disingenuous to use a term that has a very common definition, one that doesn't fit the circumstances, in order to gain emotional reactions that have nothing to do with reality. It may be a common tactic of politicians (and it is), but the result is a lie: an effort to convince listeners of something that is not true. Those internment camps of people violating our laws are nothing like what we all recognize as "concentration camps".
Not a single person has been set in ice water until dead to see how long they can survive. Not one has been stripped naked and sent into a gas chamber to die. Not one pair of twins has been tortured to death in the name of medical research. Not one has died of starvation. Not one has been worked to the point of death. Not a single person has had a number tattooed on their arm. And it is a lie, plain and simple, to insinuate that they are by using terminology reserved for places that did these things.
While both Aguirre and Ocasio-Cortez shared the photos to mark a powerful moment, many on Twitter were critical of the images, accusing Ocasio-Cortez of holding a "photo op" outside the Tornillo tent city, with critics scrutinizing the politician's decision to wear red lipstick and an all-white outfit during her visit.
https://www.newsweek.com/alexandria-oca … on-1445685“I cannot control what kind of right-wing garbage shows up on the bottom of the posts,” a spokesman from Ocasio-Cortez’s office told The Hill, adding that comments alleging the photos were fake or staged are “in no way related to reality or truth.”
I guess one has a right to an opinion. I don't feel AOS should portray to citizens that she has been in a facility, and can justly make a statement on the condition of a facility. It would be like me calling someone's home "a mess" without ever stepping foot in that home... he could have told the truth about only having the opportunity to peer through a fence at an empty tent city. She could have described what she saw.
Interesting analogy, lifeboat America, wonder how close we are to 100?
Budgetarily, you could make the case we're already there based on how much we overspend. From an occupancy stand, it's the other way around as we have all kinds of room in the Dakotas and Montana.
If only it were as simple as that... There are many problems I could mention due to taking into many migrants., and I am sure you have heard them all. The simplest is our Nation debt. This is something I think we all can agree on it's too high...
Readmikenow.....I found the final photo interesting. Finally, a pic of the other side of the fence. I see a few trucks in parking lot. That's it! No children. No illegal migrants. Hmmm. I guess the children were inside the building, which was nowhere near the fence.
So what is AOC pointing at? Are the dramatic tears-on-demand and the sorrowful embrace directed at her "horror" toward the two trucks....or the border patrol agent standing there wondering, like so many others, "What the hell?"
I did see another photo of children playing soccer. Maybe the sight of kids playing outside was to much for AOC to bear. Just wondering....We would all be pleased if you paid the place a visit so you can prove the stuff is made up by those who've already been.
I don't need to. I already know there is a crisis at the border and I have summarized the issues regarding the crisis a couple of times already, as you know. The point is that AOC chose not to vote for funding for the over-crowded detention centers. Yet she cries big crocodile tears. Her tears mean nothing. Action is what is needed----not making a scene, needlessly, for the sake of garnering more attention for herself. And yes, according to the photo, she was pointing at an empty parking lot.
It's not rocket science. There's a video out there where AOC explains why she voted against it. Weird how the reasoning behind certain decisions is not complicated, right? Just seems so unreal in this complicated world. Probably the reason many can't process it.
I know Brando, just wondering why those from the right do not. Fox News strikes again, I strongly suspect...
When someone not in the USA finds out about this stuff without really trying or bothering about it, it baffles me that those living there do not see it, especially those that call themselves learned and up-to-date on current affairs.
Randy, not only AOC sat on the problem, the entire Congress sat on the problem for months. Many claiming that there was no crisis at all. Yes, AOC has the right to protest and demand the facilities be closed. I have not noted that she has presented any form of bill to Congress to present her wishes to close the facilities. Nor have I noted any Congresspersons presenting any solutions to help solve not only the problems at the border but the immigration laws that are causing such a travesty. Congress makes our laws and can amend them.
Jan 8, 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6ECv7G88d0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0UbulXOqW8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOGPaQYuIHMShe voted with the conservatives, Shar. You should be pleased.
Wow, such scrutiny directed at AOC. Imagine if that attention to detail were directed at the people kept in cages for weeks on end, in filthy clothes and without proper food or bedding.
Hi, Pretty Panther. Welcome back. So...last time I checked, this forum post is about AOC...thus, the reference to her and her choice to vote against funding to help the illegal immigrant children for whom she cries so loudly. I hear your "concern" about the cages (instituted by Obama) and "filthy clothes." Therefore, I urge you to please do what you can to help solve the problem. Vote with Republicans and Trump to solve the crisis of overcrowding (which Democrats formerly denied was a crisis at all). Thank you for your concern.
It wasn't a crisis until Trump became POTUS, SD.
Come on Randy, do you really want to stand by that statement. A 5-minute Google search will show you tons of evidence otherwise. Bith in the graphic images of the detainment centers and the statements of politicians.
Would you like a redo on that thought?
GANo Gus, I don't. Along with threatening to shut down the border completely--which made those seeking asylum even more desperate-- I think Trump cut off aid to the countries they're fleeing from.
Drastic measures for drastic times... On can see Trump was getting no help from Congress even when he had the majority.
The highly conservative National Review says about this Trump disaster:
"Even worse, in place of a coherent and effective immigration agenda, the Trump administration has given us quite a bit of inflammatory, ineffective, and incompetent flailing around."
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/04/ … er-crisis/Okay then, according to you it wasn't a "crisis" until Pres. Trump took office.
GANo, it wasn't a "crisis" until it was figured out that it could be used to attack Trump. At THAT point it suddenly became a crises of unimaginable proportions.
This article does a nice job of comparing this administration to the previous one:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 … obama.html
And when children are dying under your watch, perhaps being attacked is warranted. Unless you're for that kind of thing.It really seems strange to me that such an enormous deal is made that a tiny percentage of children have died "under Trump's watch". We're talking, after all, about thousands and thousands of children that have never known health care, never had a decent diet, have just completed an extremely arduous trek over thousands of miles and very often enter with diseases and parasites virtually unknown in this country.
To me, the strange thing is that more of them don't die while "under our watch". Seems that we are doing a terrific job in keeping as many as we do alive and well.
Randy, you are quite right. It wasn't a "crisis" until Trump took over. In fact, he is the one who keeps calling it a crisis.
Obama drove illegal immigration down by 35% during his administration.
Nor did Obama separate families.
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immig … es-n884856
Meanwhile, the Trump administration has reduced the number of border patrol agents.
He loves to create a crisis and then soak it for political gain with his supporters. He'll do the same when we go to war with Iran (unless Congress stops him).
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illeg … tatistics/The Obama administration called it a "humanitarian crisis" promisem. Sources for that claim are available if you would like them, (some have already been provided in this thread).
GAThanks, GA. I have followed the thread, clicked on links (none of which said the problem during Obama was equal to the "crisis" under Trump) and read articles about the situation for quite a while.
Comments about Obama like the following differ quite a bit from comments about Trump from sources like the National Review.
"They (the Obama administration) made a lot of mistakes, but eventually they got some stuff right," said Michelle Brané, who directs the Migrant Rights and Justice program at the Women's Refugee Commission.
"They started out with sort of a deterrence approach, but realized fairly early on that this was a humanitarian situation," Brané said.
I'm trying to make the point that Trump has turned a problem into a crisis, in part because it has been handled so badly and in part for the sake of political gain.Hi promisem, Apparently, from Don's responses and your inclusion of Ms. Brané's comment, my responses have been taken as either a defense of Pres. Trump's policies in this regard, or a whataboutism defense of the current situation.
Obviously, there are only two possibilities; either I have been less than clear in my comments, or, any response that doesn't condemn the president without qualification must be a defense of Pres. Trump.
I will try one more time. The information that I have found indicates that with the exception of Pres. Trump's inhumane child separation policy he has been dealing with the same problem past presidents have and he is using the same detention policies they did.
I am not defending the conditions, I also think they are bad, but, I don't see any of Pres. Trump's actions, (other than the mentioned exception), as any worse than his predecessors.
I mentioned to PrettyPanther that perhaps my next dive should be for period reporting to see if Trump's predecessors provided toothbrushes and toothpaste and a clean change of clothes and Pres. Trump deserves being condemned for being so callous..
This is not "whataboutism," in an effort to defend Pres. Trump, it is about the hypocrisy of using these problems as clubs to pummel Trump, when they may have been problems all along - not specific to Pres. Trump's actions.
If that were the case and the money and Congressional support were not there to help past presidents either, then maybe those clubs should be directed at another target.
Let me offer you the counterpoint opportunity. Excepting that separation policy which no one can defend and is solely Trump's failure, what Trump policies do you think has made the problem worse than any of what his predecessors did?
What Trump policies have made this his crisis and not just a continuation of an ongoing crisis?
GAGA, I did not take your comments as whataboutism. I was only pointing out that Trump's rhetoric and impulsiveness have turned a situation that had been improving into a mess.
I included comments from both the National Review and Ms. Brané as one example of how the two administrations are perceived quite differently from their own sides.
Regarding your final two paragraphs, I point again to his mismanagement of the situation. Some specifics:
1. Serious turnover in administration leadership related to immigration.
2. Empty threats and repeated changes in direction such as dumping immigrants on Democratic states and massive raids that don't materialize.
3. Failure to take decisive action for two years when Republicans had both the House and the Senate.
4. Proposals that even his own party, lawyers and cabinet members don't accept.
5. Repeated rejection by the courts, even from Republican judges.
6. Pushing more illegals to leave their countries by cutting aid to those countries.
"Through misguided policies, political stunts and a failure of leadership, the president has created the conditions that allowed the asylum problem at the border to explode into a crisis." - former DHS officials
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-i … ay-1447685
When his own party and conservative media think Trump is incompetent, why is anyone surprised at the current situation?
https://www.vox.com/2019/5/17/18304940/ … gress-failYour change in leadership point may be a valid one. My first thought is that whatever the leadership, it would take its direction from the administration. Even if the leadership wanted to expand its capabilities it would need not only administration but also Congressional support. So I would rate that one as a "possible."
I think your second point is just a Trump criticism and could have only tangential effects, if any, on the problem. But, I recognize that this one is certainly an opinion judgment.
Your failure to act decisively should be directed at Congress instead of Trump. He has tried to act decisively, (the wall?), and has been stymied at almost every turn.
I don't see his unacceptable proposals or court rejections as pertinent to this problem of exacerbating the border crisis, but once again that is an opinion judgment. Yours may be as good as mine but I don't see facts supporting either of us.
As for the aid cuts . . . I don't think that has actually happened yet, (but I haven't looked to confirm this), so that one doesn't fly.
And your closing comments are Trump-bashing opinions. I don't see them as validating specific Trump actions as expanding the crisis.
GA1. Thank you.
2. It's valid because he is wasting time and energy for everyone involved by pursuing useless proposals. It's not an opinion. It's a factual observation.
3. Congress shouldn't have to act on bad, illegal or ineffective proposals that will be thrown out by courts. Besides, the President signs or vetoes laws. He has the ultimate authority. Blaming Congress is a cop out.
4. Bad management wastes time and energy and doesn't solve problems. It only makes them worse. Management 101.
5. Yet again, zero legal solutions and another waste of effort.
6. Yes, it has happened. I'm surprised you would reject an easily provable fact.
In respnse to your "Trump bashing" opinion, I don't see your own comments as anything but defending Trump's obvious mismanagement.
He has clearly failed to get the support he needs to solve the problem from Congress, the courts and the general public. That's what Presidents are supposed to do.By avoiding backlogs in the court system due to political interference.
https://cis.org/Report/Massive-Increase … rt-BacklogI didn't see "political interference" mentioned anywhere in your linked report.
Even more surprising, since the report addressed the years 2006 - 2015, I guess I can't even call this one a Trump criticism.
Here are the listed reasons your linked report stated:
"There are a number of reasons for the increase in the backlog:
Resources. There are too few judges and support staff to do the job adequately.
Increases in Benefits and Leave. IJs are government employees, and as they get more seniority, they receive more leave. This limits the amount of time that is spent hearing cases.
The "Surge". The number of families and unaccompanied alien children (UACs) entering the United States began to increase in FY 2014.9 EOIR responded by "prioritizing" certain "cases involving migrants who had recently crossed the Southwest border and whom DHS had placed into removal proceedings."10 This both swelled dockets and led to IJs being reassigned from already scheduled hearings. Those surge cases were also more complicated than cases involving single adult males, requiring more courtroom time (and continuances) per case.
Case Law. Recent federal court decisions have complicated IJs removal decisions, slowing proceedings and requiring additional continuances. In addition, recent decisions from the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals have increased the number of aliens who are eligible for bond, requiring the scheduling of bond hearings and rescheduling of cases when aliens are released from custody.
Obama Administration Policies. Policies instituted in the last administration led to numerous continuances, as aliens sought counsel and applied for relief or discretionary closures, release, or termination based on those policies.
IJ Burnout. A crushing docket adds to the stress of being a judge, and as that stress rises, performance logically suffers. This, in turn, results in more reversals and remands, adding even more cases to the backlog.
[EDIT ADDED] *sorry for repeating Kathleen's response. I saw hers after I had submitted mine.
It is also surprising that you would choose that link because it concluded with this:
"Trump administration policies will, if properly implemented and supported by congressional appropriations, ease and begin to reduce the backlogs:"
GA
Let me try to mitigate your surprise and clear up one thing first promisem.
Regarding the aid cuts, I said; "As for the aid cuts . . . I don't think that has actually happened yet, (but I haven't looked to confirm this), so that one doesn't fly.
That statement was based on a recollection of headlines that Pres. Trump; ...wanted to cut, ...will cut, ...plans to cut, etc.
I qualified that statement with "I don't think," and I haven't confirmed"
Even looking around today, almost all references were from March and April and I didn't find any that confirmed the cuts have actually happened... so I still don't know for sure.
Yet you say I reject such an easily provable fact. This feels like Deja Vue' all over again . . . . . . you keep putting words in my mouth
" he is wasting time and energy for everyone involved by pursuing useless proposals. . ."
You say that isn't an opinion, it's fact? What is your factual basis for determining what is useless?
"Besides, the President signs or vetoes laws. He has the ultimate authority."
Congress might argue this point with you. As would, probably, most past presidents, (regarding determining the authority to get something legislated)
"He has clearly failed to get the support he needs to solve the problem from Congress, the courts and the general public. That's what Presidents are supposed to do."
And we have a winner, a point we can agree on.
GA
Addendum:
Your enthusiastic defense of him is based on a single faulty assumption. This was not a crisis when the flow of illegal immigrants was massively higher than it is now.
You are overlooking the fact that he created this mess by refusing to release or properly process any illegals, which is a major policy change from past administrations.That is not accurate in the least.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/u-s … t-say-manyOh, OK. Why? Is the government lying about the number of border apprehensions?
Nor is your link from 2014. It also has nothing to do with my points about the decline in illegal immigrants or Trump's policy change from past administrations.
I already did. As I said, the immigration volume is down and Trump changed past policies.
No immigration is not down. what makes you say that. It has always been a problem.
Yes, it has been picking up recently, not shown on your chart.
I can see why you would see "enthusiastic defense" in my comments. Sobeit.
Once more, if you can allow me to except the family separation policy, which I think was a terrible policy, can you point out Trump's major policy changes that deviated from past presidents?
It appears that going back as far as Pres. Bush, all three presidents pursued the same detainment policies as a deterrent message, (and to comply with our immigration laws), and all three had to adopt a catch and release policy to comply with court rulings. And all three had to deal with inadequate detainment facilities, personnel, and resources.
So what are Pres. Trump's major policy deviations from past president's policies?
As for the "it wasn't a "crisis" until Pres. Trump" part, I have already given you quotes of the Obama administration saying it was a crisis, and here is a link showing Pres. Bush also thought so: Bush's 2006 Speech on Immigration
GA
Trump and his administration created the crisis. Obama used the facilities as they were intended, for short-term holds up to 72 hours.
Trump defenders inevitably resort to blaming Obama, as does their pathetic "leader" who refuses to take responsibility for his own messes." Obama used the facilities as they were intended, for short-term holds up to 72_hours."
You might want to take a look at this link before standing firm with that statement.
Judicial Rulings Ending the Obama Administration’s Family Detention Policy: Implications for Illegal Immigration and Border Security
"But in 2015, a federal district court ruled that the Obama administration’s family detention policy violated the government’s 1997 Flores settlement agreement (“Flores”).10 The court’s decision reinterpreted Flores, ruling for the first time that the government must release minors even if they are apprehended with their families. The ruling forced the Department of Homeland Security (“DHS” or “the Department”) to choose between separating families by detaining adults and releasing children within 20 days, or simply “catching and releasing”11 the apprehended family within the 20-day period.12 The Obama administration chose the latter."
I am not deflecting to defend Pres. Trump's policies, but . . . after being prompted, I have found that Pres. Trump's policies, (excepting the family separation fiasco), were just an extension of Pres. Obama's policies.
Look for your self: https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/media/ … 0Final.pdf
GARight. Except the Obama administration obeyed the law once the ruling came down, and even before that, did not hold children separate from their families (except when there was evidence of danger to the child), and did not hold children in any case for weeks on end,, and unless I missed it, provided them with the proper care.
You are right, Pres. Obama did obey the court rulings--after the court ruled. However, as the report noted, his motivations and actions were the same as Pres. Trump's - with the exception of the family separation part, (yes, that was a terrible action);
"As a result of this significant increase, the Obama administration began detaining family units to ensure they could be removed in the event their asylum claim was denied. Then-Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson explained that decision this way: “Frankly, we want to send a message that our border is not open to illegal migration, and if you come here, you should not expect to simply be released.” The policy worked: In FY2015, the number decreased by 41.8 percent to 39,838."
As for holding the children for weeks, until his administration lost their appeal of the ruling, the children were held for up to 40 days, (almost 6 weeks).
Regarding providing them with proper care, I haven't looked for period sources that detailed the care they received, (like we are now seeing regarding Pres. Trump's administration), but those famous 2014 detainment camp pictures that we have all seen used as portrayals of Pres. Trump's detainment camps don't look greatly different than the current pictures being shown. (with the exceptions of the worst of the worst being what is offered now)
Maybe Pres. Obama's CBP facilities did have real beds/cots, real blankets, and change of clothes for tens of thousands of family and children detainees on hand. I don't know, (although pictures of the time didn't look like they did). That might make an interesting search to find out. As would a search to see if all the detainees were handed toiletry bags, (soap, toothpaste, and toothbrush), when they arrived.
Of course, you will take this as a defense of Pres. Trump's policies, but it is not intended to be, it is only intended to offer an honest comparison for honest discussion.
GAI have never said the Obama administration was pure as the driven snow. I really don't understand why you keep harping on this. Only one child died in detention in the ten years prior to Trump taking office, and now we're up to, what, five in the past year? You can't simply blame that on the increase in numbers of migrants. In any case, the current conditions are unacceptable.
No PrettyPanther, you have not said the Obama administration was as "pure as snow," but the inference of your statements sound like that is what you think.
The only thing I am "harping on" is the insistence that honest comparisons be made instead of dishonest statements or inferences that this "crisis" is all Pres. Trump's fault, it wasn't even a crisis until he took office, and that it is his policies alone that are such beastly non-humane doctrines of uncaring brutality.
Of course, he does deserve the ugly face and all the accusations that come with it for his separation policy . . . but other than that his policies can be shown to be the same as previous presidents. Yet these policies are now a club to beat the beast.
I think the truth of that is your new addition of the children's deaths. The other "evil Trump" detention policies can be shown to be extensions of previous policies, so now there is a "new" evil Trump club--the children's deaths.
Have you done more than just read headlines, have you looked into the circumstances of these deaths? I have only checked a couple and those didn't seem to have anything to do with CBP actions or lack of actions.
Once more you will probably think I am defending the CBP and just dismissing children's deaths, but as before, I am only "harping" on the need for honest discussion.
GAI'm not going to argue with you, GA. Yes, I have read more than just the headlines in th deaths of the children'. Why do you assume otherwise? I recall flu, high fever, brain hemorrhage from unknown cause, congenital heart disease.
If you want to believe Trump didn't cause the current state of affairs, feel free. He has done nothing but take actions that worsen the situation, because he is treating it as a law enforcement problem instead of a humanitarian one.I can agree that his family separation policy did worsen the situation. And I can agree that I think our only realistic choice now is to expand the facilities, services, and programs in the ways you noted previously.
As long as we can't stop the inflow, and we don't accept open borders as policy, then our only choice is to expand detention capabilities.
I think you used an appropriate term -- "surge," that is what must be done now, but that isn't as easy as a military surge would be; just calling up more troops. The surge we need is dependent on acquiring things that take time. Things like; 700 to 1000 new immigration court judges, a minimum of 3 new prosecutors for each of those judges, new hearing and staff workspace for each of those judges. We will need dozens of onsite pediatricians and hundreds, (thousands?), of medical and caregiver staff. And we will need housing for all of those additional people.
In short, our surge will need a lot more than just the military throwing up more tents or canopied facilities and the Red Cross supplying an emergency, (non-longterm) feeding program.
I think that $4.6 billion that had to be pried out of Congress for addressing this problem is probably less than a tenth of what the final cost will be to do this surge we both agree, (or at least I agree), is the only choice available to us now.
So you see, we aren't really arguing about the seriousness of the problem or the solution that must be implemented. We are just arguing about the validity of using that serious problem as a club to beat-up any single president.
GALol, for the life of me I don't know why you expend your energy chastising me and Randy for using the border situation "as a club to beat up any single president," i. e., Trump.
Trump has used the serious problems at the border to rile up his base, demonize immigrants, justify his draconian and barbaric treatment of migrant families, hold the country hostage for a stupid wall, and blame everyone but himself for the mess. No,he is not responsible for the growing number of families seeking tefuge, but that's about all he isn't responsible for with regard to the current conditions at the border. It his his job to handle these people lawfully and competently. He is doing neither.
And, for the record, it was Trump defenders who brought Obama into the conversation, as they always do. Otherwise, this comparison wouldn't even be a point of discussion. Yet, you're concerned about fairness to Trump when Trumpeters constantly try to say Obama's policies were the same when they clearly were not.I am going to have to work on my presentation of what I am trying to say.
Your "fairness" comment struck a chord. I can see my statements being taken that way, (lordy, lordy, I hope I didn't actually use the word fair), but fairness was never a thought behind my comments.
My criticisms have been of the obvious get-Trump agenda, (as I perceive it), behind the comments.
GABecause of his own words and actions, he deserves to be "got."
How come "he deserves to be "got," in your mind?
I have made that clear so many times that if you don't get it you never will.
Pretty......the crisis began before Trump came to office. Neither Bush nor Obama did much to fix the problem. On the one hand, Obama deported more illegal immigrants than all of the presidents of the U.S. combined, but he also created DACA, which was an incentive for families to continue coming here illegally. As far as I know, Bush did nothing.
But more importantly, how about recognizing that illegal immigrants are here illegally? And how about recognizing all the immigrants who come here the right and proper way----who pay their dues, and wait in line for 7 years to become American citizens? How about recognizing that we have laws for a reason?
Our facilities at the border were not built to contain the truckloads of illegal immigrants who come here everyday, hoping for a free pass to a better life. The facilities are overcrowded. Thus, the humanitarian crisis, which Border Patrol has not only recognized, but spent an extraordinary amount of time trying to get Congress to act upon. Indeed, they have been begging Congress for money to help them deal with the humanitarian crisis.
It seems to me everyone is missing the point. Even if Hillary Clinton had become president, the crisis would still be a crisis.
At any rate, here is a piece from NPR. They recognize the problem for what it is, while also giving a paragraph for the pro-illegal immigrant stance.
https://www.npr.org/2019/03/05/70042806 … -year-highI see the crisis as our inhumane, unlawful, and incompetent handling of the migrants. You see it as the huge numbers of immigrants coming to our borders wanting to cross, either legally or illegally.
The first is Trump's responsibility, as he is in charge right now. The latter has been going on for years, and failure to act is on Congress.And they don't blame Trump when he had both branches of govt to make a change in the matter. The 3 branches did nothing at all to address the problem except make it worse.
Now they're blaming one of the three for the problem they ignored. Yes indeed, typical Republican action...or inaction as it seems to be in reality.Well, ya know, the pattern was set when they voted for him. He is not held accountable in the same way previous presidents were.
I should have been more clear in my statement. She did visit a tent city in Texas that had no one residing in it as of yet. The tent city was built to house migrants that were seeking asylum legally. She was not admitted to the empty facility and would have no way of knowing what was beyond the fence. AOC had not been elected to Congress when she made her visit to the tent city in Tornillo Texas.
"Before [Ocasio-Cortez] hit the national stage and was just a fairly unknown House candidate from NYC, she took time [away from ] her campaign and came down to #Tornillo to protest the #tentcity housing migrant children,"
https://www.newsweek.com/alexandria-oca … on-1445685Ivan Pierre Aguirre (Who shared AOC photos)
Today is exactly 1 yr since I went out to #Tornillo for @texastribune & made the first fotos of kids inside of #tentcity. That day culminated into MANY long wrk days out there.I‘m proud of the wrk I did helping tell that important story. Thank you to @ATXjj for sending me out./1
June 15, 2018
EL PASO, Texas (KFOX14) — Children were seen playing soccer outside tents set up at the Marcelino Serna Port of Entry in Tornillo Friday morning.
Link
June 19, 2018
DHS revealed Friday that the facility housed about 100 minors, but on Tuesday, the Texas Tribune reported about 200 living there. And Texas Republican Rep. Will Hurd said that Tornillo plans to keep around 360 children, and that could increase that to 4,000 minors in the near future.
Link
June 25, 2018
In a response to this humanitarian crisis, Voto Latino as well as other organizations, activists, and artists gathered at the Port of Entry in Tornillo, Texas, on Sunday June 24, 2018, about 1,000 feet away from the tent city.
New York District 14 Democratic candidate Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez pleads with border patrol agents through the fence.
Link
June 30, 2018
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez stands at the Tornillo-Guadalupe port of entry gate on June 24, 2018 in Tornillo, Texas. She is part of a group protesting the separation of children from their parents after they were caught entering the U.S. under the administration's zero tolerance policy.
LinkWhen this story hit a major cable network media, they clearly claimed the tent city was just constructed and about too open, and that AOC showed up for a photo shoot. I see the photographer claims differently? I see no reason he would not be truthful. My apology to anyone on this forum that was offended by my post.
I'm just wondering why so many people are risking their lives, jumping fences, and breaking the law to get into our concentration camps.
Professor Judith Curry of the Georgia Institute of Technology finds the Met Office’s lack of attention to lowered solar activity mystifying."
'The responsible thing to do would be to accept the fact that the models may have severe shortcomings when it comes to the influence of the sun,' said Professor Curry. Professor Curry believes factors other than CO2 play a more important role in the rise and fall of global temperatures.
A major influencer of global temperatures and weather, she says, are the 60-year water temperature cycles in the Pacific and Atlantic oceans. 'They have insufficiently been appreciated in terms of global climate,' said Prof Curry. 'When both oceans were cold in the past, such as from 1940 to 1970, the climate cooled. The Pacific cycle ‘flipped’ back from warm to cold mode in 2008 and the Atlantic is also thought likely to flip in the next few years.'
"Since the end of last year, world temperatures have fallen by more than half a degree, as the cold ‘La Nina’ effect has re-emerged in the South Pacific. 'We’re now well into the second decade of the pause,' said Benny Peiser, director of the Global Warming Policy Foundation. 'If we don’t see convincing evidence of global warming by 2015, it will start to become clear whether the models are bunk. And if they are, the implications for some scientists could be very serious.'
"The question remains: how long will politics remain at the forefront of scientific issues that are unresolved? Major decisions that will effect generations are being driven by what now is proving to be hasty, if not faulty, science. The implications aren’t just for the scientific community, but rather for society as a whole."
https://www.offthegridnews.com/current- … last-word/The Global Warming Policy Foundation is notoriously right wing and controlled by fossil fuel and tobacco companies. Not exactly an unbiased group with none of the trustees being climatologists in the first place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Wa … Foundation"Because it is registered as a charity, the GWPF is not legally required to report its sources of funding, and Peiser has declined to reveal its funding sources, citing privacy concerns. Peiser said GWPF does not receive funding 'from people with links to energy companies or from the companies themselves.'"
... so what do you mean, "controlled (!) by fossil fuel and tobacco companies." ?"GWPF states that it is 'deeply concerned about the costs and other implications of many of the policies currently being advocated' to address climate change and that it aims to 'bring reason, integrity and balance to a debate that has become seriously unbalanced, irrationally alarmist, and all too often depressingly intolerant.'"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Wa … Foundation9 of the top 10 authors have ties to Exxon Mobile.
https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/G … FoundationI do too. Why, just last year I gasssed up at an Exxon station!
I wasn't even going to respond to it, Brando. Some things aren't worth it.
I actually spent a good hour watching a link Shar posted about Congressional testimony pertaining to immigration that I had not previously seen. It is clear that more people are attempting to come to the United States and we were not prepared for it.
Trump may have tried to warn Congress, but one could make the case that all his gross exaggerations previously was a reason no one took him seriously. I find culpability on both sides.Out of curiosity, we were all exposed to the same data, the same video images of marching masses moving toward the border. How is Trump's penchant for exaggeration the reason so many pretended what we were seeing was something that didn't point to exactly what everyone is finally agreeing is a problem that needs to be tackled?
In the same way that Trump supporters can read the Mueller Report and not find he committed any criminal conduct even when 1,024 former federal prosecutors confirm that they would have indicted any other American for that action.
Saying we are all exposed to the same data is clearly not the case either. Liberal and conservative sources are clearly not using the same data. Trump administration claims only 2,800 children separated, then the courts discover that the numbers are much higher because the policy was put in place earlier than actually reported. And with examples of video being doctored by pro-life proponents, neither side is willing to trust much at this point.
Certainly there is culpability on both sides, both Democrat and Republican. Decades of denial is number one, but the shouts that there IS no crises comes in a very close second. Trump's major "culpability" would seem to be trying to use existing laws to contain a major problem rather than making an end run around the law as Obama did, but for one I'm not happy with any President that puts their own feelings ahead of the law. Presidents swear to uphold our laws, not ignore them because they feel sorry about something and that is as it should be.
With the extreme partisanship and anti-Trump rhetoric it is difficult, if not impossible, for we the citizen to know or understand what is really happening. The horror stories of our "concentration camps" are a case in point - I for one do not believe them at all. I believe that conditions in those necessary detainment centers are very likely much better than what the people left behind, and they ARE a "prison" - not a recreation hall or a luxury resort. So we have AOC on the one hand with an obvious agenda to cause the presidency harm and to make America responsible for the world's poor and on the other hand is a for-profit business that will lie as badly as AOC will to protect their income. What can we believe?"What can we believe?" How about our own eyes and ears?
"There were also no migrant children who died while in CBP custody during the final six years of the Obama administration. ]Former DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen previously admitted that it had been more than a decade since a child had died in CBP detention until December of last year, when an eight-year-old Guatemalan national passed away on Christmas eve. Since then, at least four other children have died while detained."
"While conditions were poor under Obama's administration, some things appear to have grown worse during Trump's tenure. A report by The Marshall Project found that the average daily population of migrants in detention centers has risen under Trump. During Obama's time in office, the number of detained migrants was generally between 30,000 and 40,000 on any given day. As of last year, the average under Trump was nearly 46,000—and that number has been on the rise. This has led to even more overcrowding and less resources, while conditions were already considered inhumane by many. "
https://www.newsweek.com/migrant-detent … ma-1447160And this surprises you and you blame it on Trump rather than the massive increase in illegal crossings? This is exactly what I'm talking about - the tremendous hatred and vitriol given our president for decades of neglect and ignoring the problem coupled with recent efforts to train people how to get around our laws is not his fault. Neither is the lack of facilities to handle the resultant increase in people breaking our laws. Blaming Trump for what others have done/are doing is hardly reasonable, and neither is a declaration that he simply ignore the law and pretend it's OK that millions of illegal aliens roam the streets rather than be "incarcerated". It is not his prerogative any more than it was Obama's, and to expect that he make his own laws is not only foolish but self defeating for that will only increase the screams of dismay.
I refer you back to my comment on another thread:
****
If the Trump administration had been thinking in humanitarian terms from the beginning, instead of law enforcement terms, they would at least be helping the situation instead of worsening it.
As I stated back when the first caravan was on its way, we are capable of incredible resourcefulness in times of crisis. The military can build temporary facilities to house and feed thousands of people quite quivkly. The Red Cross could be utilized. Instead, we pay a private company exhorbitant sums to provide substandard care.
This administration should be offering lawyers and judges high pay and other incentives to learn and perform the legal duties required to quickly and lawfully process asylum seekers. A lot of of this can be done via video chat. A similar recruitment should be done for interpreters, social workets,medical petsonnel, etc. Whatever it takes.
We should be working with the source countries to help them clear out the criminal element and provide for their citizens. This help should be proactive and ongoing until no longer needed. Instead, the Trump administration cuts off aid as "punishment." Stupid and shortsighted but his supporters eat it up.
This problem is not easy to deal with, but it can be handled much more humanely and efficiencly. It just takes the will and the competence to do so, neither of which is displayed by this administration.
****
And, for the thousandth time, I don't hate Trump. He is a sad, clinically ill narcissist and a lying, corrupt POS but I don't hate him. I just see him clearly.
It is really lazy on your part to attempt to explain away legitimate beefs as nothing more than hatred.
It does make you wonder what role having four different Homeland Secretaries in two and a half years might have contributed to the differences in managing those being processed.
Were the immigrants paid to arrive? If so, whose fault is it that they are even here?
From your link:
"There are a number of reasons for the increase in the backlog:
Resources. There are too few judges and support staff to do the job adequately.
Increases in Benefits and Leave. IJs are government employees, and as they get more seniority, they receive more leave. This limits the amount of time that is spent hearing cases.
The "Surge". The number of families and unaccompanied alien children (UACs) entering the United States began to increase in FY 2014.9 EOIR responded by "prioritizing" certain "cases involving migrants who had recently crossed the Southwest border and whom DHS had placed into removal proceedings."10 This both swelled dockets and led to IJs being reassigned from already scheduled hearings. Those surge cases were also more complicated than cases involving single adult males, requiring more courtroom time (and continuances) per case.11
Case Law. Recent federal court decisions have complicated IJs removal decisions, slowing proceedings and requiring additional continuances.12 In addition, recent decisions from the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals have increased the number of aliens who are eligible for bond, requiring the scheduling of bond hearings and rescheduling of cases when aliens are released from custody.13
Obama Administration Policies. Policies instituted in the last administration led to numerous continuances, as aliens sought counsel and applied for relief or discretionary closures, release, or termination based on those policies.
IJ Burnout. A crushing docket adds to the stress of being a judge, and as that stress rises, performance logically suffers. This, in turn, results in more reversals and remands, adding even more cases to the backlog."Continue putting up the Mexican barrier. In some places, it can be a wall, in some places it can be a steel fence, in some places, it can be camera surveillance utilizing technological apparatus; whatever is needed depending on the area and the traffic flow. Let Trump implement a border.
"In 1986, the US Congress passed the Immigration Reform and Control Act, making it more difficult to cross borders. By then, however, undocumented migration had already become a self-perpetuating phenomenon. In light of the new hardships of migration, many Mexican families decided to settle together in the United States and dared not return to Mexico for fear that they would not be able to get back into the United States. Rather than feeling “pushed” from all the spaces in which they resided, they now felt entrapped in the United States, which they referred to as the jaula de oro, or the “golden cage.”
FROM https://www.futurity.org/mexican-immigr … s-1760432/AOC, only Democrat voted against new stimulus bill. I thought she had principle and was actually a sane lone voice...until I heard the reason why...She said it was not enough and should be higher.
This is in response to how we saw the first round of small business loans went into some businesses like Ruth Chris Steak house...
Why?
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