After all of the national intelligence agencies did investigations, they sat before Congress and said Russia did it! Now we are hearing that Ukraine did it! What evidence is there to support either.
Is truth no longer truth? How do you determine what is true? If we don't know what is true, how can we protect 2020 election?
From Time Magazine
https://time.com/5565991/russia-influen … -election/
Probing state voter databases
U.S. intelligence agencies have concluded that Russia did not alter actual votes during the 2016 election. But Russians did target voter registration systems or state websites in at least 21 states before Election Day, fully accessed some states’ systems and stole hundreds of thousands of voters’ personal information.
The FBI alerted states to the threat about two months before the 2016 election when hackers accessed voter registration databases in Illinois and Arizona. Then in January 2017, the government issued its first report on election interference and blamed Russia for the hacks. However, DHS did not tell top state officials that their systems were scanned by hackers until nearly a year after the election.
Did Russia Affect the 2016 Election? It’s Now Undeniable
In the wake of the Mueller indictment of a Russian troll farm, any attempt to claim that the 2016 election wasn’t affected by Russian meddling is laughable.
https://www.wired.com/story/did-russia- … ndeniable/
From your link: "So anyone trying to tell you there was little impact on political views from the tools the Russians used doesn't know. Because none of us knows."
This is a long, long way from "...any attempt to claim that the 2016 election wasn’t affected by Russian meddling is laughable."
The simple answer is that you can't. That's why there's a lot of misinformation out there and it's always up to the individual to do their own research and make up their own minds on what happened or what's going on now.
So how do you do your own research. In the past, if the FBI or other authority said, it happened, they did it and they did it because, we believed them.
Now, there is a split within agencies. Whom do you believe? We can't investigate Russia or North Korea ourselves. Kim is nice now and it's ok for him to set off baby missiles/
That's a very good question. Unfortunately I don't have any answers for you on that one. All I can tell you is never rely on one source of information. Always try to look at various points of views and then go from there. That's all we can do really
Let's face it - our elections have been influenced by foreigners for decades - this entire charade playing out in DC is a joke - the hearsay testimony, the constantly changing narrative, and the rush to impeach (all partisan) are POLITICAL tactics. At the end of the day, everyone, even hard core leftists, know that there is no way the President will be removed from office.
FBI looking for a Russian https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/cyber/maksim … 861565dbe0
The United States Department of State’s Transnational Organized Crime Rewards Program is offering a
reward of up to $5 million for information leading to the arrest and/or conviction of Maksim Viktorovich
Maksim Viktorovich Yakubets is wanted for his involvement with computer malware that infected tens of thousands of
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Specifically, Yakubets was involved in the installation of malicious software known as Zeus, which was disseminated
through phishing emails and used to capture victims’ online banking credentials. These credentials were then used
to steal money from the victims’ bank accounts. On August 22, 2012, an individual was charged in a superseding
indictment under the moniker “aqua” in the District of Nebraska with conspiracy to participate in racketeering
activity, conspiracy to commit computer fraud and identity theft, aggravated identity theft, and multiple counts
of bank fraud. On November 14, 2019, a criminal complaint was issued in the District of Nebraska that ties the
previously indicted moniker of “aqua” to Yakubets and charges him with conspiracy to commit bank fraud.
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and to use these captured credentials to steal money from the victims’ bank accounts. He, subsequently, used the
malware to install ransomware on victims’ computers. Yakubets was indicted in the Western District of Pennsylvania,
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If you have any information concerning this person, please contact your local FBI office or the nearest
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Is Russia our friend? Should we develop an international security system with them? Why should Crimea belong to Russia?
Hi, Diane, it's good to see you out and about again in the forums. I think if anyone follows "real" news, he or she will find the truth among the debris. I don't believe there is any doubt that Russia interfered in the 2016 elections. The indictments issued in the Mueller Report is proof enough for me:
https://www.wired.com/story/did-russia- … ndeniable/
But the inference that Ukraine interfered is certainly in doubt until there is some proof. At this point, it is just a smokescreen blown by Trump to take the heat off his own impeachment investigation that is now in the House of Representatives. Nobody has yet to offer any proof, just baseless (so far) allegations. Only a die-hard Trump supporter would believe him.
Trump tried to make it look like the Bidens had done an illegal investigation into corruption in Ukraine, but it was a U.S. government sanctioned investigation.
https://www.snopes.com/ap/2019/09/23/th … ps-claims/
So, until and if anyone can come up with proof of any truth in Trump's rantings, Russia interfered, but Ukraine did not.
Agree with all this and will add that Fiona Hill testified under oath that Ukraine election interference is a false narrative generated by Russia to distract from their own genuine interference. So, anyone touting Ukraine interference is doing Putin's bidding.
How does Fiona Hill know this? Has she conducted an investigation on her own? To take what she says as the absolute truth seems a bit naive. She provided an opinion and not evidence.
Those who watched the hearings saw her and other credible career employees testify. You actually make my point. These are career people who have the expertise and network to know what we don't know. So unless we are individually convinced, by whatever means, we will not believe people who were hired to do these things.
How do you decide whom you will believe?
I believe someone who makes statements and can back them up with evidence and facts. Everyone has an opinion.
There are reports available for most of what we are told by career government officials: Russian meddling, Mueller report on obstruction, Ig report disputing Trump's allegations (to be released 12/9) and testimony people are giving on Ukraine.
Hard to believe but Rudy is in the Ukraine trying to film a documentary on Ukraine meddling with the corrupt prosecutors.
I agree Ukraine did meddle in the election on behalf of Hillary Clinton.
"Politico also cited several instances in which Ukrainian officials pushed back against Trump’s comments that Russia’s annexation of Crimea should be accepted as a done deal. For instance, Ukraine’s U.S. ambassador had an op-ed in The Hill that said Trump’s words sent the wrong message. And Ukraine’s minister of internal affairs tweeted that Trump posed "an even bigger danger to the US than terrorism."
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-mete … kraine-co/
It's obvious all the things Ukraine did on behalf of Hillary Clinton didn't help her win the election.
Okay, I challenge anyone to point to anyplace in the Mueller Report where he claims that obstruction was confirmed.
When McGahn said Trump told him to lie about Trump telling him to fire Mueller.
He tried to send Corey Lewandoski to fire Sessions.
That too, Diane. Trump doesn't like to do his dirty work himself, unlike the character he played on The Apprentice.
No, it alleges Corey Lewandoski was sent to fire Sessions. That doesn't make any sense. The Attorney General serves at the discretion of the president. President Donald Trump did fire Sessions on November or 2018.
Randy, again, that is an allegation but it is proof of nothing.
If someone alleges that you have a President Donald Trump room in your house filled with pictures of him and MAGA hats and they said you are a devout follower, I wouldn't believe it. It would just be an allegation.
I don't care if the allegation was made by your attorney, next door neighbor or local representative. So, just because someone say something doesn't make it true.
If I went to your house and saw the room, then, I'd think I was in the wrong house, unless you told me it was your room and your house. That would be direct evidence.
See how it works?
We spent 25 million (?) + investigating Russian interference. Determining the full extent of their eventual influence has been difficult, at best, and is hotly disputed.
I'd like to know if, and how much, effort was put in by the Ukraine.
However, to me the greater evil was the DNC. How they and Hillary manipulated the system. Not only our government policy in their favor but also their own rank and file by attempting to manipulate to ensure Hillary got the nomination. Did the Obama administration actively use the power of our government to attempt to help Hillary's campaign? How far did the FBI go to help partisan interests?
Russia, at worst, trolled social media. The DNC and Hillary, at worst, stripped our system of any semblance of democracy.
"I'd like to know if, and how much, effort was put in by the Ukraine."
“Based on questions and statements I’ve heard, some of you on this committee appear to believe that Russia and its security services did not conduct a campaign against our country and that perhaps somehow, for some reason, Ukraine did. This is a fictional narrative that is being perpetrated and propagated by the Russian security services themselves. The unfortunate truth is that Russia was the foreign power that systematically attacked our democratic institutions in 2016. This is the public conclusion of our intelligence agencies, confirmed in bipartisan congressional reports. It is beyond dispute, even if some of the underlying details must remain classified.”-- Dr. Fiona Hill, former top Russia adviser on the National Security Council testifying under oath.
Now you know.
I'm not a Democrat looking for confirmation bias. I can't just take one person's opinion, nor do I cave to attacks that not taking that opinion means I'm attacking her patriotism.
If you are willing to make a judgement based on one person's stated opinion I can see why the democrats in the House get so much traction with innuendo and rumor.
Apparently you didn't watch the other witnesses during the hearings, instead you parrot Fox News. Not surprised, but others have stated the same thing Hill did. Why would she lie?
Her statement, made under oath, is based on the knowledge of the entire intelligence community. Do you think she was lying? Or, do you think the entire intelligence community is lying? Or, do you have some other inside knowledge that would lead you to question U.S. intelligence professionals and believe Putin could be right?
"This is the public conclusion of our intelligence agencies, confirmed in bipartisan congressional reports."
I would like her to provide evidence and not just opinion.
She is accepting the findings of U.S. intelligence agencies. You don't?
I want to see the findings. I don't trust her interpretation of things. We still don't know what those findings show. It was U.S. intelligence agencies who used the bogus Steele report to get an unwarranted FISA warrant. It was U.S. intelligence agencies who have engaged in some pretty shady "surviellence" of the President Donald Trump campaign.
NO I don't trust her opinion of the findings. Until I see them, all we have in a biased opinion.
Once again, I am reminded why it's a waste of time to engage Trump supporters.
Every U.S. Intelligence agency has stated their conclusions about election interference. Either you accept them or you believe Putin.
So, since you know so much about the Russian interference in our election answer these questions.
Should be easy for you.
1. Exactly HOW did the Russians interfere with the elections. What actions did the Russians take to interfere? I'll admit they did run some ads on Facebook. Since that hardly sways an election, what else was done? An attempt to interfere is not the same as actually interfering.
2. If the US Intelligence agencies are so competent, why didn't they take actions during the Obama administration to identify it and stop it? What happened? Why did they fail in their job to protect our elections?
So, what happened?
Read the Mueller report. It lays it all out. Of course, you already know that.
I've read the Mueller report from beginning to end. I took my time. As I say, other than a few Facebook ads, did the Russians do anything else? If so, it's not listed in the Mueller Report.
As far as I can tell, the IG report doesn't back up your claims on the Steele Dossier as it hasn't been made public yet. But perhaps you have a double standard as to what you DO believe and what needs to be proven.
I bet we can have a better discussion about it after it is released on December 9th.
But you're already making claims about the Steele Dossier, Mike.
Randy, even Steele stated he couldn't verify the information he had in his dossier.
"There is evidence Steele told the DOJ in July, and the State Department in October, about all of these flaws in his work, and that State officials even detected blatant inaccuracies in his intelligence. If so, all of that information should have been flagged by the FBI as potentially derogatory information weighing against Steele’s use as a source for the FISA warrant."
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house … es-dossier
Also the District Attorney Barr appointed to find out about the government corruption didn't find it. The IG asked him what he has.
My deepest fear is that there is unexplained doubt about our governmental ageencies. Career officials are losing their jobs, being terrorized and god only knows what else. The IGs testimony is supposedly saying that the Mueller investigation was valid. Many don't believe it. There are waay too many politics in our republic.
How do we fix it? This is frustrating!
This is a valid fear. If our elected officials don't "fix" it by impeaching Trump and removing him from office then we the people MUST. We cannot allow a president to run roughshod over good people while siding with Putin. It is disgusting and unforgivable.
A hostile foreign powers goals are, or could be, to delegitimize the presidency itself. The goal, to throw suspicion on whoever became the president; Trump or Hillary by seemingly tilting it in their favor.
The left has been a willing, and/or as usual an unwitting participant in this hypothetical, with their seditious resistance.(they should be rounded up a jailed imho)
Elections have had attempted manipulation since someone thought of the idea of elections a thousand years ago in Greece. The US is probably the worst at regime changes and the like.
Nevertheless, no evidence of any effect on the Electoral College results.
No, there was no evidence of an effect. Just an assumption that the deplorables were too stupid to recognize obviously fake news on social media. Of course, the elites of society have always assumed those beneath them were, well, beneath them and that includes intelligence.
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