Here's the case against Trump according to The Washington Post, provided in all CAPS to mimic the President's tweets:
First, here are a few of Trump's recent tweets:
LAW & ORDER. VOTE!
BIGGEST TAX CUT EVER, AND ANOTHER ONE COMING. VOTE!
FIGHT THE CORRUPT FAKE NEWS MEDIA. VOTE!
SPACE FORCE. VOTE!
Here's WaPo's response:
LETTING 220,000 AMERICANS DIE FROM COVID-19 — WORST IN WORLD. VOTE!
LOSING 3.9 MILLION JOBS IN FOUR YEARS — WORST IN RECORDED HISTORY. VOTE!
KNOWING PANDEMIC WAS “DEADLY STUFF” ON FEB. 7 BUT OPTING TO “PLAY IT DOWN” AND MISLEAD AMERICANS. VOTE!
PROPOSING BLEACH AS A COVID CURE, MOCKING MASK-WEARING, HOSTING WHITE HOUSE SUPERSPREADER EVENT AND SUGGESTING ANTHONY FAUCI IS AN “IDIOT.” VOTE!
ADDING $7 TRILLION TO FEDERAL DEBT, MAKING IT LARGER THAN U.S. ECONOMY FOR FIRST TIME IN 70 YEARS. VOTE!
BALLOONING CURRENT BUDGET DEFICIT TO ALL-TIME RECORD $3.1 TRILLION. VOTE!
ENDING HEALTH COVERAGE FOR MILLIONS AND SUING TO ELIMINATE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT, INCLUDING PREEXISTING-CONDITION PROTECTIONS. VOTE!
VIOLENTLY DISPERSING PEACEFUL CIVIL RIGHTS PROTESTERS OUTSIDE WHITE HOUSE FOR A BIBLE-WIELDING PHOTO OP. VOTE!
PROPOSING TO POSTPONE THE ELECTION, TRYING TO DISCREDIT MAIL-IN VOTING AS FRAUDULENT AND REFUSING TO COMMIT TO PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER. VOTE!
DEFENDING DEADLY VIOLENCE BY WHITE-SUPREMACIST SUPPORTERS AND WINKING AT MILITIA PLOT TO KIDNAP MICHIGAN GOVERNOR. VOTE!
SEEING “VERY FINE PEOPLE” AMONG VIOLENT NEO-NAZIS IN CHARLOTTESVILLE. VOTE!
VALIDATING A CONSPIRACY THEORY ABOUT PEDOPHILE RING CONTROLLING U.S. GOVERNMENT. VOTE!
CALLING SWATHS OF AFRICA AND CARIBBEAN “SHITHOLE COUNTRIES” AND TRYING TO BAN ENTRY FROM MUSLIM-MAJORITY NATIONS. VOTE!
TAKING MIGRANT CHILDREN FROM PARENTS AND LOCKING THEM IN CAGES. VOTE!
FALLING “IN LOVE” WITH NORTH KOREAN DICTATOR KIM JONG UN. VOTE!
SIDING WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN OVER U.S. INTELLIGENCE ON ELECTION INTERFERENCE. VOTE!
GETTING IMPEACHED FOR WITHHOLDING MILITARY AID FROM A VULNERABLE ALLY TO EXTORT CAMPAIGN HELP. VOTE!
EXCUSING SAUDI PRINCE’S DISMEMBERMENT OF U.S.-BASED JOURNALIST AND ADOPTING JOSEPH STALIN’S “ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE” PHRASE FOR AMERICAN MEDIA. VOTE!
APPEASING THE TALIBAN AND ABANDONING KURDISH ALLIES IN SYRIA. VOTE!
PRAISING “VERY GOOD FRIEND” XI JINPING FOR HANDLING OF CORONAVIRUS AND TRANSPARENCY. VOTE!
SHOVING A PRIME MINISTER AND PUBLICLY DISPARAGING LEADERS OF FRANCE, GERMANY, BRITAIN AND EVEN DENMARK BECAUSE GREENLAND WASN’T FOR SALE. VOTE!
BELITTLING “LOSERS” AND “SUCKERS” WHO DIED FOR OUR COUNTRY, POSTHUMOUSLY INSULTING JOHN MCCAIN, SKIPPING MEMORIALS FOR THE FALLEN AND DERIDING TOP GENERALS AS WAR PROFITEERS. VOTE!
ADMITTING TO PAYING OFF A PORN ACTRESS FOR SILENCE ABOUT AN AFFAIR, OFFERING KIND WORDS FOR CHARGED CHILD-SEX TRAFFICKER, AND TALKING ABOUT WOMEN AS “BLEEDING,” “DOG” AND “MONSTER.” VOTE!
ENRICHING HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY BY FORCING TAXPAYERS AND TRYING TO FORCE FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS TO SPEND MILLIONS AT HIS PROPERTIES. VOTE!
PAYING ONLY $750 IN FEDERAL INCOME TAXES IN 2016 AND IN 2017 AND PERSONALLY OWING $400 MILLION TO UNKNOWN CREDITORS. VOTE!
HAVING HIS FORMER CAMPAIGN CHAIRMAN, PERSONAL LAWYER, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, CHIEF STRATEGIST AND AT LEAST SIX OTHER CLOSE AIDES ARRESTED OR CONVICTED. VOTE!
USING THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND PRESIDENTIAL POWERS TO COMMUTE AND REDUCE SENTENCES OR DROP CHARGES AGAINST FRIENDS AND TO HARASS CRITICS. VOTE!
BEING PROTECTED BY POLITICAL APPOINTEES AFTER SPECIAL COUNSEL FINDS EVIDENCE OF OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE. VOTE!
USING THE PRESIDENCY TO MAKE MORE THAN 20,000 FALSE OR DUBIOUS STATEMENTS, TO INSULT PEOPLE BY THE HUNDREDS AND TO TRASH INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION ON CLIMATE, TRADE, HEALTH AND SECURITY. VOTE!
INDUCING THE LONGEST GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN IN HISTORY, THEN DECLARING FAKE EMERGENCY TO SPEND MONEY WITHOUT CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL. VOTE!
SUFFERING TURNOVER OF 90 PERCENT AMONG CABINET AND TOP WHITE HOUSE STAFF, AND NOW ON FOURTH CHIEF OF STAFF, FOURTH PRESS SECRETARY, SIXTH COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR AND FOURTH NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER. VOTE!
FIGHTING IN COURTS TO DISCOURAGE MINORITIES FROM VOTING AND PARTICIPATING IN THE CENSUS AND DESECRATING RUTH BADER GINSBURG’S DEATH BY ATTACKING HER GRANDDAUGHTER AND RUSHING A REPLACEMENT BEFORE FUNERAL. VOTE!
MAKING THE WORDS “MOTHERF-----,” “BULL----,” “ASS.,” “SON OF A BITCH,” “HAMBERDER,” “SMOCKING GUN” AND “COVFEFE” PART OF NATIONAL DISCOURSE. VOTE!
SABOTAGING THE POSTAL SERVICE FOR ELECTORAL GAIN, ROUTINELY ACCUSING OPPONENTS OF TREASON AND USING A SHARPIE TO REDRAW A HURRICANE FORECAST MAP. VOTE!
THINKING FREDERICK DOUGLASS ALIVE, FINLAND PART OF RUSSIA, BRITAIN NOT YET A NUCLEAR POWER, WINDMILLS CAUSE CANCER AND “RAKING” PREVENTS FOREST FIRES. VOTE!
Wow! Just wow!
I knew that the Post wasn't to be trusted in their claims, but these are really over the top. The only thing that outfit is good for is fire starter. And, perhaps, a tool in schools to show how much a supposedly "reputable" source can lie and get away with it.
Which claims do you have a problem with? A few are a bit hyperbolic, but most of them Americans either heard with their own ears or witnessed with their own eyes. Unless you weren't paying attention. Or watching Fox News.
For instance, "Letting 220,000 American die...." That's complete nonsense. That's attributing every single death to Trump. I would say his ineptitude and mockery is certainly responsible for extra death and suffering, but to say nobody would have died if not for him is very misleading.
But let's take this one also:
ADMITTING TO PAYING OFF A PORN ACTRESS FOR SILENCE ABOUT AN AFFAIR, OFFERING KIND WORDS FOR CHARGED CHILD-SEX TRAFFICKER, AND TALKING ABOUT WOMEN AS “BLEEDING,” “DOG” AND “MONSTER.” VOTE!
Pretty much spot on. I'm not going to go over every one, but some are accurate and others are exaggerated.
And to be totally honest, if the guy would ever discuss his ideas in any intelligent way, he could easily dispel a lot of accusations against him. He seems to like the attention and the chaos. Kind of like when you ask him to denounce white supremacy. He hedges. He wants the press, the attention, the confusion, the chaos. Except when it stops working, you just can't go back. It's fun for awhile - to see everyone squirm - until you need an actual leader, like during COVID, and his antics result in death.
Remember when he said he would drain the swamp and hire the best people? How come so many quit?
I will say this though about the comparison of the two messages - President Trump's tweets are clear and direct. Even if I don't agree with the content, they're not confusing. That's a good thing. Direct and clear. People like that. People don't like obtuse and confusing and anything that requires research. Although I will say, I bristle every time I hear "Space Force!". It's like something a second grader would think up. Like super duper missile. It's the kind of thing somebody with not a lot of brain power or a complete lack of respect for his audience, thinks up.
You're right - the first one is absolute nonsense.
So is "PROPOSING BLEACH AS A COVID CURE" (He did not do that. Period.)
And "ADDING $7 TRILLION TO FEDERAL DEBT" (only Congress can approve money)
And "BALLOONING CURRENT BUDGET DEFICIT TO ALL-TIME RECORD $3.1 TRILLION." (same reason)
And "VIOLENTLY DISPERSING PEACEFUL CIVIL RIGHTS PROTESTERS OUTSIDE WHITE HOUSE" (The SS dispersed them, and if they were "peaceful" there would have no violence.)
And "DEFENDING DEADLY VIOLENCE BY WHITE-SUPREMACIST SUPPORTERS AND WINKING AT MILITIA PLOT TO KIDNAP MICHIGAN GOVERNOR. VOTE!" (Nothing here has any truth at all in it)
And "ENRICHING HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY BY FORCING TAXPAYERS AND TRYING TO FORCE FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS TO SPEND MILLIONS AT HIS PROPERTIES." (Again, no truth at all here - just gross exaggerations of "business as usual" for the country)
And "DESECRATING RUTH BADER GINSBURG’S DEATH BY ATTACKING HER GRANDDAUGHTER AND RUSHING A REPLACEMENT BEFORE FUNERAL." (Doing his job is not "desecrating Ginsburg's death")
And "SABOTAGING THE POSTAL SERVICE FOR ELECTORAL GAIN, ROUTINELY ACCUSING OPPONENTS OF TREASON " (He didn't "sabotage the postal service, and while accusing opponents of Treason may have truth in his accusations, the process DOES seem to be "business as usual" in today's politics. He has learned the dirty tricks well, right?)
So basically nearly everything they said has either been grossly exaggerated or spun or is an outright lie.
"And to be totally honest, if the guy would ever discuss his ideas in any intelligent way, he could easily dispel a lot of accusations against him."
Actually, I doubt it. American politics have become so mired in mud, filled with so many lies, spin and exaggerations, that Jesus Christ himself would not be able to change what is happening.
Dunno know about "space force". Not liking the terminology is purely personnel - personally I find it rather apt and descriptive and no different than "air force".
One of my biggest grips with Trump's language is his constant use of superlatives - they are completely unnecessary IMO and have lost all their impact from overuse.
Was the Post's reply on their opinions page? The replies you posted certainly don't seem like a 'reporting' article.
Much of the list has been well taken out of context. Some of the lists are blatantly untrue accusations. Would seem very unwise to dispute any of what of WAPO's listed due to at some point or the other I have with sources. But one thing is sure we can differently see we have a great divide, and it is not really about Trump at all Crank... It's about different thought processes. However, I think it may apply in a big part to political ideologies, Perhaps hopefully we as a society share some of the same philosophies and beliefs. I will hold onto that as a positive place to start repairing the divide.
I can ignore most everything on that list.
However, if you just focus on one thing, and that is the dramatically increasing cases of COVID and the warnings being issued that we're about a week away from some real problems. While that is happening, our President mocks mask-wearing and openly encourages people to ignore the pandemic.
For that alone, he should be voted out of office.
In your opinion, not that of the pundits or virologists, can this country tolerate another 2 or 3 month shutdown? Can children recover from not only the lost month or two of schooling, but from a year of "half" schooling (half as effective as usual)? How many additional small businesses will we lose and will they come back (with the original owner)? Can we ever pay off the additional debt we'll run up? Will whole industries (Hollywood, tourism, etc.) recover in less than many years and is that acceptable? How many will lose their homes if they can't work?
And perhaps biggest of all, will the general population tolerate another forced lock down? Or even mask wearing, for that matter? The US is not Korea or other heavy handed governmental system, it is not even the UK or other European style cultures. It is a land of independent, self sufficient people used to making their own decisions; will they tolerate government taking their livelihood, their children's future or their homes...because a handful (perspective is everything, and most don't know anyone that has actually died) of people lost their lives.
I see all of these as valid questions (perhaps most of all the last two), but they are completely ignored by most people. Government, after all, has endless money to give them and others that are hurt financially.
Yes, those are valid questions. None of that changes the simple fact that if we had knuckled down early and followed guidelines, we would be in much better shape now, with far fewer deaths and a better controlled case count as we move into the colder months.
The damage has been done. The world is looking on in horror as the country who used to lead by example is mired in ignorance and incompetence. Instead of a shining example of how to come together and respond intelligently in a time of crisis, we are a world-class sh!t show,
You need to take your complaints to the millions upon millions of people refusing to follow guidelines. Perhaps if you can convince 80% of the people to follow guidelines the rest will follow along. Maybe explaining them that we in the US are the shining example for the world it will change their minds - that others look up to us will convince them that the "emergency" actually exists rather than a conspiracy for government to extend it's grasp on our lives. I doubt it, but it IS possible.
Personally, I find it amusing that anyone thinks Americans are looked up to as leaders of the world, but that's just me. Maybe others actually believe that.
I took my grandchildren to a "pumpkin farm" last night, where there were many activities (all outdoors) for them to play on. Out of perhaps 3,000 people present, I'd bet that no more than 100 were wearing masks. There did seem to be some effort to maintain distancing, but not nearly enough. Although there were many handwashing stands around, I saw few using them.
Bottom line is that while some are willing to knuckle under to requirements they don't believe are necessary, my personal observation, in my area of the country, is that most are not.
Depressing, isn't it?
Know what I think we need? Leadership. Respect for science. A consistent message about mask-wearing. A leader who undermines science is a bad leader and a bad person. Despicable, actually. Such things have real-world consequences and I think we're about to find out what they are.
And in response to your questions, which are good ones, I just sent one of my kids back to school. We'll see how it goes. So I'm supportive of going back to school under safe conditions - as safe as the district can make them. The same goes for businesses. Am I going on a plane anytime soon? Nope. Just cancelled vacation plans. And I think a lot of people are like me. Am I going to sit down in a restaurant anytime soon? Nope. So we can open back up to a certain degree, but I think we're going to see a lot of people behave smartly. The dumb ones will cause all sorts of problems and a lot of people are going to get sick and die.
And here's another truth, a bone for you. If Biden is elected, things are going to get worse on the COVID front. The reason is that I believe the people who are already resistant are going to get downright ballistic about safety precautions. It's not going to be about protecting others from COVID. It's going to be all-out war between freedom and the government. Maskless behavior is going to become, if it isn't already, the new symbol of freedom from government tyranny. It's going to be a complete badge of honor.
Your first paragraph is almost exactly the response I was going to give.
First, we have leadership - most of our governors and other state personnel are giving, and showing, good guidance for controlling the virus. And the response is to sue them for going beyond their legal limits for what they can do. It's to create scenes all over the country, ranting at businesses that try to follow guidelines. No amount of "leadership" is going to convince those people that they have a responsibility to help protect others, not when it means they have to do something they don't want to do.
As far as spiking if Biden gets in - that's something I hadn't thought of and you may well be right. A huge backlash against efforts to control, from a man that is perceived to want as much control as possible, in every facet of our lives.
You conveniently ignore how Trump actively works against those governors who are providing leadership, going so far as to lead "lock her up" chants against Gov. Wittimer.
That is where Trump has failed miserably. He is not a leader. He has neither the character nor the ability to lead this country through a crisis.
And you conveniently ignore that we already have "leadership", choosing to blame non-conformance onto a single individual rather than the people not following the dozens, or thousands, of people providing what you say isn't there.
While I agree that he hasn't provided much leadership in the things you want (masks, distancing, etc.) it isn't like there is a void there.
. . . just to use your comment as a 'jumping point', and not to argue with it . . .
If we had followed the masks recommendations the death count probably would have been lower, but, without proven therapeutics or a vaccine, would we have been in a better state relative to the virus?
The masked wearing may have throttled its advance, but, it would still be there just waiting for the time when we had to reopen our society. That does seem to be the message of the infection spikes that occurred after some recent state reopenings.
So, what do we do? Do we believe in the contested promotion of reaching 'herd immunity', or do we remain shut down until an accepted vaccine is produced?
I know it is a 'cold' thought, but I think it is also a realistic one—at what point do the dangers of Covid deaths become subservient to the nations economic health?
Does anyone that considers economic reality think that we can put our nation's economy on hold until there is no danger of Covid deaths?
If we had "knuckled down" early, would we be in any different situation today—other than fewer post-knuckle down deaths? Die today of Covid or die tomorrow of Covid's effect on our nation. Live today because we followed Covid precautions, but die as a nation tomorrow because we placed the priorities of the individual above those of the nation?
I think those are tough questions. Tough non-partisan questions. If, we had followed all the most conservatively promoted precautions that the Democrats are now beating up on Pres. Trump for not following, would we be in a different place relative to the dangers of this Covid virus? Would we have saved 100,000 thousand lives at the cost of a nation's economic health?
I will be honest, as I always try to be. When I first heard about the virus I could only equate to being a virus, as all other viruses I felt it would cause death, and fizzle out as many viruses do. I soon became aware it was a much different form of virus, a virus that came from a strain that is notoriously hard to handle, and that a vaccine would be the only thing to really combat this virulent virus. Being a nurse, I spoke with many that were dealing with it daily, I even volunteered a couple of shifts a week as an IV nurse. So, I can tell you I saw first hand how the virus was causing more problems than any other virus I had worked with in my career. Yet, I knew still we needed therapeutics and a vaccination above all. Being a nurse with a background in science I have studied viruses. And I can honestly say I feel the Governors, as well as the president, did all they could to slow the spread. Did Trump set an example in regards to using a mask, no? He should have been wearing a mask even if he found it inconvenient or even if he just did not believe in wearing one. He should have suffered along as we have all had to do. Do I believe that mask slowed the spread? I always felt social distancing should have been the number one mitigation along with handwashing. The mask does offer some protection, more if one knows how to take it off properly. The president was wrong to even give comments on something he knows nothing about. he should have relied on the Doc's in the task force and stepped away. They have been honest, and never really gave any form of false hope that the virus will go away on its own. Because if one listens to the science on this particular virus, one soon will learn it's here until we can be vaccinated.
If one would have listened to the task force they would have realized all they could offer was mitigations that would hopefully flatten the curve. None of them said anything different. The fact is perhaps Trump could have tried to usurp the many Govenores that chose to handle the virus on their own. He had no power to intervene. He could have tried via the courts I would suppose. He could have recognized problems such as some states putting sick COVID PTs into the nursing homes. If you do some research you will see the Taskforce provided a good list of mitigations, and most Governors did follow the recommended mitigations. I can't blame anyone for the deaths but a very new virulent virus. I give credit to all that have dealt with it as best they could, from Medical staff to all the people that kept our stores open so we could buy food, to the scientist that are working to bring us a vaccine and new drugs to decrease the death rate. The president made some mistakes, he was a poor example, not a team player, he certainly should not have ever given his opinion on something so scientific. I can see where you can blame him for both. But to blame him for all the deaths. I can honestly no president would have been able to stop a virus. The task force all along has been honest, and that's the very message they gave. We just were not listening. Crank, hopefully, a safe vaccine will come soon. It will come, it may be a while, but we will see an end to COVID.
Whoever wrote the WaPo piece tries to blame Trump for every death, which is just ridiculous.
However, he was just asked if he would change anything and Trump's answer was "not much". I find that infuriating. The mark of a great leader and great thinker is re-evaluating, admitting mistakes, and rethinking. Trump does none of this. In fact, every day he's been making things worse.
As far as the virus, one of the things that's come out recently is that the Obama administration left a pandemic playbook. Well, of course Trump hates everything Obama did and he refused to open that playbook. That's fine. But the Trump administration put together their own playbook (not that different from Obama's apparently). And then they didn't use that one either.
You've pinpointed Trump's fatal flaw, which is the inability to admit or recognize the things he doesn't know anything about and an unwillingness to allow others to provide guidance. He simply couldn't see past his own needs to have the economy flourish during an election year and have things get back to normal as soon as possible. One would think that actually getting COVID would have changed his view, but instead we get the typical aristocratic response, which is the inability to understand how everyone won't get the same treatments he received.
All very sad. People are dying. It's getting worse. And Trump doesn't seem to care very much judging by his actions, which is apparently how we're supposed to judge him.
Could I ask what you feel he could have done differently in regards to his actions that could have slowed the thread of the Virus? We agree on the fact he should have not added his uneducated opinion on the virus, and that he was and is a poor example by not abiding by mitigations.
I have watched a storm of accusations that Trump could have done more to save lives, but I can honestly say I have not heard true examples of what he could have done that he actually did do.
I mentioned the pandemic playbook. That, along with all the cuts the Trump administration made to the various agencies needed to deal with this.
Let's make one thing very clear - it's fine to want to cut taxes and shrink government, but there are real-world consequences to that behavior and we're seeing it right now. That doesn't mean government should grow out-of-control, but when you take an ax to government instead of a scalpel, you set yourself up for failure sometimes, a lot of time.
This article covers the failures pretty well and does not assign all the blame to Trump:
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2136 … ic-failure
However, if you really need to ask what he could have done better, I would argue you're not paying attention or getting all your news from pro-Trump sources.
Even now, warnings are coming out and he's doing nothing. He's actually doing worse than nothing.
I have read President Obama's "playbook', I can assure you, Trump, actually whether by accident or on purpose followed the suggestions in the playbook.. I will try to relocate the playbook to offer it for your opinion. I have posted it here on a few occasions. I have followed all aspects of this virus, which would include the first-hand experience, as well as speaking with several Doc's on the job.
I read the article you offered. I find it did not point out any of what Trump knew when he knew it or what actions he did and when he initiated his actions. On the face value of the article, I can see how and why you came to your opinion that Trump could have done more to handle the crisis.
I followed the three timelines carefully and felt most of his statements were relative to what he was being told. His attitude changed in regards to the virus as the virus proceeded to get worse. I noted he took actions as needed, and handled most problems himself. He took the advice of the Taskforce, and Dr. Fauci has verified he did just that, "even when he did not totally agree with what they were wanting him to do, he did it"...One could not expect a layman to know what to do in a pandemic crisis. He took the advice of the Taskforce. I put much of the blame at their feet in some respect, as well as the CDC for not keeping up our stockpiles. The testing was slowed due to the FDA, they would not OK for the US to use the tests that were being successfully used in South Korea. They were not as reliable as they felt we needed. You do realize we had to develop tests on an unknown new virus, and this was done in record time.
I respect how you came to your opinion completely, you certainly are not alone. I developed an opposite view through not only a bit of expense, and info from Doc's on the job, but closely following the four of the most informed -- The task force, CDC FDA, WHO. These are the same four sources Trump followed. Did he disagree at times, yes? But did he follow their advice in regards to what actions he took, yes?
The media form day one followed one path when reporting on this virus, that was a political path, and a path that promoted fear, and anger. We could have done better without fear and anger. We may have even come together to fight this new virus. yes, mistakes were made all around, flip flops form all involved. I believe this was due to the virus being a new one and a very virulent virus. As Dr. Fauci said on many occasions " we are learning as we go"... I think many of us just did not realize, this virus was not like a typical virus, one that could be handled in a typical way. Even the vaccines will be like no others produced. But thank God we have good scientist that have tackled the unknown and seem to be coming up with a form of a vaccine.
I hope you can if not respect, at best see how I came to my view my opinion on the Virus and how it was handled.
I must admit, I have a very hard time understanding how you arrived at your opinion, particularly when President Trump undermines science every single day with his rallies and his statements about masks and his open mockery of mask-wearing.
But let's leave that there.
I think if I were defending Trump, I would do so on the basis of how other nations are doing. Although I would argue that we should be doing the best because we have the most resources and money, our nation is highly individualistic and it's hard to imagine it responding well to the lock-downs that were needed in other nations who fought the virus well. If a Democrat were in charge, it's easy to see how things might be worse because the right-wing would be even more anti-mask than they already are.
That said, I have an abiding respect for science and knowledge. To see Trump belittle that every day is not something I can stand. In my experience, it's the mark of an idiot or somebody with so little confidence in their own intelligence that they must insult the intelligence of everyone they meet to make themselves look smart.
Another tack I might take is to accuse the Democrats of the same lack of leadership as Trump. While Trump created a massive leadership black hole, the Democrats just stood on the periphery watching things burn. Where were their ideas? Where was their legislation, aside from handing out money? It would have been futile, but they could have passed a plan in the House to deal with the pandemic and let the Senate reject it. Make an argument, for God's sake. Instead, they just cheer as the President flails.
While I understand why they did this, particularly in an election year, it goes to the heart of my basic problem with the Democratic Party - a total lack of ideas. I want to know what you're for not what you're against. The latter is obvious. They really could have rallied working Americans and all they've done is to offer them money. That's not an idea.
"I think if I were defending Trump, I would do so on the basis of how other nations are doing."
Now this could be an interesting topic. Out of curiosity, I went looking for what is happening in Sweden - the country that did virtually nothing to stop the spread.
And found that their deaths per 100,000 are less than that of the US. In addition, to my considerable surprise, their death toll leveled off over a month ago, and they have had virtually no deaths since then. Did they take the right approach? Only more time will tell the whole story, but at this point it appears they just might have taken the right approach. At a minimum it would appear that there was more than one road to take, and that we don't yet know which road was the best.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir … ry/sweden/ Scroll down to the 3rd and 4th graphs: the deaths in Sweden.
I am not trying to defend anyone, I don't think blame needs to be assigned to one person for a brand new virus. I think the blame game is not justified in any respect. In my view, the virus has been made political to the extent that it is dangerous to our countries economy and the well-being of American's. Our politicians have strived to spread fear and dependency on others to make decisions for our well being. Instead of being honest, and attempting to be realistic about what a virus is and what we could expect (as the taskforce did do)with a virus crisis. Many seem to feel blaming and thinking there was a silver bullet is justified. I think if the virus was not made so political this country would have pulled together, and less fear and despair could have been avoided.
Thank you for the link --- I check Worldometer daily, to check stats and more importantly the charts which show the varying curves around the country, and world. You pointed out Sweden using the herding method.
This is interesting, and I have been comparing Sweden to my own state of Michigan. As you most likely know Michigan has lived under a severe shutdown and is still under an almost complete shutdown. We have 10 million citizens. Sweden has almost 11 million population. Sweden did not mitigate they had 586 per million death toll. Michigan has 747 per million. These numbers speak loudly. Our Gov powers were taken away a few weeks ago by our Supreme court. We are now facing a health department that has put out the same draconian rules. It is uncertain if they can enforce them.
I watched Biden last night list his plan, what he would have done, what he would do. All I could think of is check, check, check --- Yeah Trump did all that.
I didn't mean to indicate that you were defending Trump - the only reason I posted was to say that we don't know everything and that are different avenues to take concerning the virus.
I have yet to see any form of real discussion as to costs of fighting the virus - lost lives, lost livelihoods, psychological, cultural, education, lost homes or other property, debt incurred, permanent damage to lungs, etc. There are a thousand costs involved in any action we take...but the only one I see discussed is loss of life. While I understand that Fauci, for example, is not an economist, not a psychologist, not an education expert, it still seems more than a little dishonest (by the "system", not Fauci) to only talk about one single facet. Both we as a nation and we as individuals are constantly balancing physical harm or death against our actions and making decisions from that balancing act; why aren't we doing it with the virus?
The answer, IMO, is pure politics. It would be political death to say that perhaps, just maybe, we will have to accept some people dying to protect the businesses of others. Feelings trump cold hard facts every time, and the feelings about death are strong.
As far as Sweden vs Michigan, I don't know if they are truly comparable. There are just SO many variables! Sweden has half the population density as Michigan, for example. Diets are much different, making underlying contributing factors, as well as overall health, different. Do Swedes like to gather in large groups to a similar extent people in Michigan do? Do the two have similar rates of travelers entering (or leaving and then returning)? Even such things as air pollution could be playing a part.
And, of course, it isn't over yet. Sweden may well find it's own "big spike" and overtake Michigan - we just don't know. But, I think, we CAN say that we don't know enough, yet, to determine a best course of action.
My words were just to clarify my feelings, not meant to be directed at you. Sorry, my words traveled poorly.
I so appreciate your pointing out the fact this virus and its mitigations have many direct and indirect consequences. If one listens to the ongoing words throughout the pandemic he did address all the various problems the virus could pose. He actually in the beginning was against travel bans as well as strict lockdowns for all the reasons you listed in your comment. It was obvious from the very beginning that many American's were not listening. They grasped parts of his statements and ran with them. Fauci early on flip-flopped all over the place in regards to wearing masks, I noted in his first press conferences he was using mask safety using information that has been used for many years. He was truthful about the facts that are found in textbooks. Fauci was always clear we were asked to uses mitigations to flat a curve. He at this point is promoting to open up the country with ongoing mitigation.
Our population density is fairly comparable we have actually no condensed cities, as one might think. I can't compare diets or health problems. In regards to gathering in groups we are and have been unable to do so for 8 months. For much of that time, we could not even meet with the family. At this point, we can meet with no more than 10. We were not allowed to travel from city to city until the end of July. The mitigations were enforced strictly. They worked no better than the states that did little. It is one of the reasons the Gov was taken to court to remove her powers to mitigate.
Mitigations may have helped flatten the curve, but we have destroyed our economy, and drug use is way up, as well as crime is up in Detroit. The Pine Rest report projects 2,039 deaths by suicide in Michigan for 2020, which includes 491 additional suicides relating to COVID-19. That's one-third higher than last year. This Governor's political grand venture has killed the economy here, as well as more citizens that did not have COVID. No, we don't have future numbers but as a person with a degree in the science of the human body, I can promise you the virus will be around until we find a vaccine or if by a bit of good luck it mutates down as H1N1 has. You do realize we still are dealing with H1N1? It is due to be once again this year's flu. It continues to kill yearly., no not to the degree COVID kills... Just making the point Viruses are very hard to deal with, and can't be cured only handled with meds and vaccines. Maybe God could change that fact, but mere man has not been able to change that fact. My big beef is the blame game. No one can be blamed for how this virus is being handled. Just venting, this comment should not be taken personally. I watched Biden last night, he provided his COVID plan. All I could do was say check, check, check ---Trump did all of what he mentioned. Go figure.
Personally, I've been reasonably satisfied with steps that Trump took. Disappointed in his handling of mask/distancing rules, but otherwise satisfied.
But I'm not pleased that no one will address those other facets of the problem. I don't blame Fauci - he made it clear long ago that his job was as a virologist, nothing else, and that his suggestions and recommendations would ONLY address the areas he was expert. Not the economy, not the psychology - nothing but responses designed to lower the death rate.
So who WAS responsible for discussion and data on the rest of it? No one, apparently, or at least no one has stood up and taken the flak (and the inevitable cries that they just want people to die). Not even Trump, but to be fair had he done so it would absolutely have cost him the election, and probably produced nothing of value as it would certainly be turned into a political ploy rather than an actual discussion.
And we still refuse to look at other costs beyond lives lost. You mention some you see in your state, and I'm positive other states recognize the same kinds of things...but refuse to bring them out into the open.
We seem to be in agreement. One thing I will add, Trump actually has for many months talked about the consequences of a prolonged shutdown. He has been belittled all along the way. Not sure about your Governor but mine openly said we will not let this president dictate what we do in Michigan. I am not sure if Trump had the legal right to mandate any mitigations in regard to the virus. At any rate, Trump has claimed for many months "We can't make the cure worse than diseases".
He has...and been totally ignored. No discussion, no debate, no sign of understanding - just blame.
No, I don't think he had any authority to mandate anything. Only states can do that, and even then I question state's rights to inhibit or limit interstate travel.
What's going on in Idaho?
https://thehill.com/changing-america/we … gs-ditches
"Democrats just stood on the periphery watching things burn. Where were their ideas?"
I don't feel the Democrats couldn't have done anything more. Nor do I think Biden could do anything else, in fact, his plan is made up of what Trump did but going to court to have a few mandates, by the time he got it through the courts, we would have a vaccine... The Dems played it very smart. Just point the finger. What I was trying to say even the scentist could offer anything but mitigations. Many American's do feel we being the US should have come up with a magic bullet. There is no magic bullet at this point, and won't be until we have a safe vaccine. We as a society must face that fact, and make up our minds on how we move forward. That is our right.
I can see and understand your frustration with how Trump chose not to listen to the science of wearing a mask or downplaying the virus. As President, one can see he is of the thought that we need to have the country open once again, and to work the best we can around the virus. I would think he is considering the true hardships the country is facing and will fail if we don't get our economy up and running again. We as individuals can make up our own minds as citizens on how to run our own lives and keeping our families safe. At this point, we are well aware of what we need to do. I can see that many will not accept anything else but getting quickly back to some form of normal. That is their right. It's my right to continue to do my best to protect others around me and my family while moving on to something a bit more normal.
We were told months ago we would have a spike in the fall by our scientists. It is happening, many are pretending they never heard the information on what to expect in the fall. We are having spikes, as I said my state is has been made to follow each and every rule, we may as well still be in a lockdown. We are spiking. no one is to blame for this spike. No scientist has ever claimed to this day that we could have done anything but flatten the curve, which we will do once again this fall. We can have an abundance of testing available, we are all set with PPE.
It's clear the two parts in Washington have never been so divided country well split and I can see no one man has caused this. It has been brewing for some years, and at this point, it appears we have two very different mindsets in the country, both set in cement.
This is not about Trump, it's about a society that has come to see all things very differently.
Crank, we seem to be in a big old mess in this country...
We could keep businesses open and still maintain a more reasonable level of infection if everyone, and I mean everyone, would follow all, and I mean all, recommendations.
Instead, we have large swaths of people ignoring their civic duty and creating unnecessary illness and death.
Like this woman:
Ha! Just another example of the idiots among us. I think you can tell a lot by how a person dresses, and I don't mean as an economic measure.
Combat boots and gym shorts? Maybe it's just me. ;-)
Hahaha! Well, at least Chris Cuomo doesn't wear combat boots to Starbucks. But he doesn't wear a mask either.
https://nypost.com/2020/10/21/chris-cuo … -building/
And then there is his brother...
https://www.democratandchronicle.com/st … 243385001/
A significant portion of Covid-19 deaths were the fault of this arrogant governor of New York who forced elderly patients back into nursing homes.
The CDC says, that masks may help keep infected people from passing the virus to others.
Makes sense to me, even if it is not a guarantee.
They add, "The protective effects — how well the mask protects healthy people from breathing in the virus — are unknown."
Therein lies the rant of the girl at Starbucks. She knows she doesn't have underlying conditions. She knows the "barista" likely doesn't either because otherwise, that girl would be at home. Yet she, the patron, is being dismissed by a condescending woman on the other side of the counter... and that is not okay.
Approximately 0.65% of the U.S. population have died from coronavirus Less than 1%.
Nearly all, if not all, had underlying conditions and most of them wore masks.
Most healthy people who contract coronavirus have varying symptoms, not unlike the flu or a mild cold. According to three people I have heard from, they "got a little cough" and felt "sort of like they have a mild cold" and that "it was "no big deal." Why? Because they did not have underlying conditions. All three were young and healthy. Like the Starbucks girl. My god, how dare she express her frustration to a woke, condescending clerk. The nerve.
Could I get a link to the video you watched?
I saw one where a Starbucks employee asked a woman to put on her mask and the woman lost her mind and berated the employee for no other reason than she was politely asking the customer to follow company policy. From what I saw, the barista served the woman despite being yelled at.
I agree, however, it's time to be realistic we have been using mitigations. In Michigan, they are very strict and enforced, we have flattened the curve, but at this point even with all the mitigations, we are spiking. Could it be time for Americans to realize this virus is, for one thing, a new virus that is very virulent, and our country for the most part has been doing everything to at least flatten the curve? I realize some states are unwilling to mitigate. But my state (Michigan) has mitigated with very draconian rules, and we are not much better off than the states that have done little. We are showing the predicted fall spike.
The mitigations help but they are not a cure-all. A vaccine is needed, and we can lock down until it comes or just stops blaming, and as you suggest get on with the mitigations as you suggest. It would seem most of us did our best to slow the spread.
The mitigations only work if people follow them. You can enforce public measures but you can't control young people partying together, extended family gatherings, constitutionally protected protests, etc.
That is where leadership and consistent messaging is so important. Trump has actively worked against this and that is why he is responsible for unnecessary illness and death.
I know you like CNN. I believe Trump mentioned this during the debates. https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/07/politics … index.html
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