Minimum Wage

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   gmwilliamsposted 3 years ago

   
   Why should the minimum wage be raised?  The purpose of a minimum wage is to gain skills & move up to the next level.  There is a reason why some jobs are minimum wage-because they require very little or no skills.  Your thoughts.

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      CHRIS57posted 3 years agoin reply to this

      My 2 cents: Aren´t minimum wage jobs which require little skills prone to be replaced by automation? Isn´t automation (machines doing the job) the real driver for prosperity? One combine does replace how many corn cutters of the 19th century?
      
      I believe the real incentive of raising minimum wage is to push automation, create business cases for automation, thus to push economic performance and prosperity. Don´t look at this from the perspective of individuals to gain skills. Look at minimum wage to be a driver for improving economy with high leverage.
      
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c … nimum_wage
      If you compare US minimum wage to other peer economies, the gap is some 50% at purchasing power parities. Apparently does not hurt the competitiveness of peer economies like France, Germany, UK, Canada, that adjusted minimum wage is so much higher.
      
      For decades the US has lost competitiveness on the world stage. Result are high trade deficits. Lowering or abandoning minimum wage is the opposite of what should be done to kickstart productivity.

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      tsmogposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      I think there should be a strong look at minimum wage, which I am sure they have done and are doing. I also think they should rethink the tip credit too. In my area San Diego County the minimum wage is $13 or $14 as explained by San Diego Union-Tribune so raising it incrementally as proposed in the Rescue Bill to $15 by 2025 won't really effect any change, yet there is the question of impact. The article shares that.
      
      For starting pay Walmart is at $11, yet is raising it for some workers to an average above $15 while Amazon and Target are at $15 for starting pay. Walmart is the largest U.S. employer. There are economists on both sides of the fence and I haven't looked into those.
      
      Walmart to hike wages for 425,000 . . . is a NBC article Feb 2021.

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      lovetherainposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      What about stupid people who can't "move up" ? There are a lot of them....

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         gmwilliamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

         They have to live impoverished.  Pure & simple.

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            lovetherainposted 3 years agoin reply to this

            Like me, you are a horrible person. The only difference is I admit it.

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            1. 83

               gmwilliamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

               You AREN'T a horrible person.  You are being TRUTHFUL.  I am not  a horrible person but believe in telling it like it is.  I am not a softie.  I believe in TOUGH love- make stupid choices, win stupid prizes.  Not sorry in the least, touche.

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2. 77

   Valeantposted 3 years ago

   I'd have no issue with minimum wage remaining the same if rents had also remained the same since 2009. 
   
   https://www.cbpp.org/blog/rents-have-ri … since-2001
   
   The minimum wage should at least have kept up with inflation increases.  Even the unskilled deserve the ability to afford shelter.

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   1. 95

      wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Part of the reason for Seattle to raise their minimum wage was rent.  So they raised it...and rents promptly went up so they tried to soak big corporations for the extra they now needed.
      
      Raising wages in response to inflation is a vicious circle; we raise wages, whereupon inflation increases so we raise them again to accomplish more inflation.
      
      But why do the unskilled "deserve the ability to afford shelter", and what kind of shelter?  A minimum wage worker can get shelter, it just takes 3 or 4 roomies to do so.    What's the problem with that?

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         gmwilliamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

         Exactly.  If they want better, they have to earn it through acquiring relevant education & skillsets.   If they choose to be unskilled, they have to live with the consequences.  No one OWES anyone anything in life.

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   Credence2posted 3 years ago

   It is the thing that irritates me about Conservative the most is their "Forward to the Past" attitudes. Virtually all industrialized countries uses the minimum wage, and if you review the definition you can see the reasons. Is America the exception to the influences that motivate all the other nations to have to establish this? How so?
   
   How useful is the Minimum Wage if it not maintained as relevant to the ambient costs of living?
   
   https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage

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      tsmogposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Very informative article I will put on my future reading list to become informed. Thanks.

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   2. 95

      wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      "How useful is the Minimum Wage if it not maintained as relevant to the ambient costs of living?"
      
      How useful is raising the minimum wage when the inevitable result is rising costs?  When business costs go up, so does the price of their product - witness Seattle which raised it only to find that housing costs immediately rose.
      
      Minimum wage is a great tool for kids, for elderly wishing a little side income, for people that don't want to put out the effort to learn a salable skill.
      
      At the same time, it is useful in preventing the sweat shops of the past.  In practice, few decent companies are paying it; I can't recall the last time I saw an ad for a job at minimum.  Certainly my grandchildren, just entering the job market, are earning well over that figure.

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         Castlepalomaposted 3 years agoin reply to this

         Seattle dose not look the same with all the record breaking homeless

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      2. 81

         Credence2posted 3 years agoin reply to this

         Ah Cmon, Wilderness, you conservatives types continue to have the same explanation for the sky falling since the .25 cents an hour from the inception of the Minimum Wage Law in 1938. The sky hasn't fell.
         
         Every major retailer and most of the states of the union mandate more than $7.25/hour.
         
         What do you think the reason was for all these states to have insisted on a higher minimum, let's not just cherry pick the Seattle area? It has to be for reasons beyond issues of employing kids or for people that won't take the effort to learn more marketable skills.
         
         What is it YOU know that all the world's industrialized nations have overlooked regarding the need to apply a minimum wage, in principle?
         
         It is still useful in preventing sweat shops in the present. It might just help avoid excess subsidizing of people and families by the government.

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         1. 95

            wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

            We all know indiscriminate wage hikes cause inflation.  The difference is that some don't care; it is more important to look good to the voters.
            
            It won't help the subsidies...except in the very short term.  Whereupon the cry will go out to raise it again because price increases outstripped the raise we just gave.  Just as we see happening over and over.
            
            We have been doing this for decades; what's so hard to understand?  Why the denial that it happens when we have decades of experience watching it happen?
            
            I could support a wage increase to, perhaps, $10 - that's about what nearly all the low end businesses are paying anyway.  Beyond that it is inflationary, and with zero benefit to anyone.

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               CHRIS57posted 3 years agoin reply to this

               Wage hikes only cause inflation if they are unrelated to productivity gains.
               And for decades there was no rise in productivity. So yes - there is inflation.
               
               The Fed tried to counter inflation by injecting money into the economy (the quantitive easing stuff). But this only inflated the financial sector, not the real economy.
               
               So the real economy, the making and servicing economy has to take care of itself by improving its performance. And a trigger is higher minimum wages. Raise minimum wage significantly and you will see business to look for more productive means.
               
               Actually the US of 2019 (before Covid) and the past decade is in exactly the same situation as the Soviet Union was in the 70ties, where everyone had a job (low unemployment), but was poorly payed and the economy was still not competitive because of lack of productivity tools. If labour is cheap, no incentive to get more productive.  We all know what happened to the Soviet Union a decade later. Same fate is coming for the US.

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               Credence2posted 3 years agoin reply to this

               Why support an increase to $10.00, would you not be content to have it remain at $7.25 or go back to the 1938 standard of 0.25?
               
               The hikes are not supposed to be indiscriminate. While many on my side speak of a $15.00/hr wage, they may not occur immediate. But an increase is warranted from what was established 11 years ago. So, the frequent "cry" for the increase in the minimum wage, has not generated results in a frequent manner.
               
               it is only the recalcitrant red states that stay with the national minimum. Are you telling me that all the other states that increased on their own behalf did it for just political reasons? Why should I believe that?
               
               And all of the world's industrial developed societies most undeveloped ones have the minimum wage concept in place just because of politics?
               
               I am not convinced that runaway inflation is due to minimum wage increases.

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                  GA Andersonposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                  Since you speak of the difference between states, should the minimum wage be a state decision? Obviously, the difference in living costs would mean that New York and West Virginia would present extremely different examples of "need."
                  
                  GA

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                     Credence2posted 3 years agoin reply to this

                     Perhaps, that may well be a solution that I could live with...

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                        wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                        I'd go even further; minimum wage in New York City need not apply to Old Forge, NY (population 750).  Seattle's minimum wage need not apply to Ritzville, Wa (population 1650).  If large cities wish to raise wages past what small locations can pay, have at it but leave the smaller towns alone.
                        
                        Which is what we have in some areas, given that there is a national minimum as well.  And there should be; not only does it prevent gross abuse but products travel all over the country; Old Forge does not produce all it's food, nor it's cars nor it's refrigerators.

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                           Credence2posted 3 years agoin reply to this

                           State government oversight regarding your local wage suggestion and I guess it will be OK. 
                           
                           Just want to make sure that people in Spokane can go to the Washington State Government to have its CPI checked to insure that there is justification for a lower minimum wage than what is found in Seattle.

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                           1. 95

                              wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                              Why?  If they don't like the wage where they are, move to Seattle.  If they do prefer to live outside the concrete jungle, and prefer it enough to pay the price, then leave them alone.

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               2. 95

                  wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                  "I am not convinced that runaway inflation is due to minimum wage increases."
                  
                  I don't expect you to be convinced.  No liberal will admit that.
                  
                  But...make it $15 as is wanted.  Then those that used to make $12 now want 18, and those that made 18 now demand $23 (they are certainly worth more than $3 more than minimum!).  And the liberal will tell us that those increases will not drive prices up; that all businesses will simply absorb the increase, destroying any profit margin as they do so.
                  
                  I thought I made it pretty plain that a minimum wage is a good thing, just that continued increases, or very large increases well beyond the going market value of that labor, is NOT a good thing.  And a 50% increase in labor costs is well beyond the market value.
                  
                  Somehow we've gone from the idea that minimum wage is for those just starting out, with no skills and no work ethic, working for a few months or a year while earning minimal survival wages to assuming it must support a family of 4 comfortably.  Or a family of 6; whatever the worker has.  And that's a major problem.

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            gmwilliamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

            Credence, there is a minimum wage for a......REASON.  Such jobs require very little, even no skills.   If one wants a liveable wage, acquire the education & skillset to get such jobs.   Pay is correlated to skill levels, remember that!   Also, minimum wage jobs are ENTRY jobs, they AREN'T lifetime jobs, hmmmmm.........

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               Valeantposted 3 years agoin reply to this

               This claim that the jobs that earn minimum wage require little or no skills is something I wholeheartedly disagree with.  The jobs where that applies is:
               
               Cleaning and janitorial - how many times do you see high school kids or college kids cleaning their own schools?  Never.
               
               Restaurant - waitresses and chefs better have skills otherwise they might kill you with bad food prep.
               
               Delivery Drivers and Shipping Workers - usually are at minimum wage.  Again, many in these fields are career workers.
               
               Home Health Care Assistance:  Unskilled?  Are you kidding me?
               
               This portrayal to make these jobs out to be for up and comers is a fallacy in my opinion.  And I'm a firm believer that hard work should be rewarded with a salary that allows you to not live in squalor.

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                  gmwilliamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                  Let me state something.   The higher the skillset & education, the higher the pay.  To reiterate, minimum wage jobs don't require much skills or education, so the pay is commensurate.  If one doesn't want to live in squalor, acquire the necessary/relevant education &/or skillset to live a decent lifestyle.   All jobs aren't created equal.  Some jobs are BETTER than others.

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               2. 95

                  wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                  Interesting list, though I have to wonder where you got your figures that these people make minimum wage.
                  
                  Chefs: No state on the list is paying less than $10.  https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/W … y-by-State
                  
                  Janitorial: Average US wage is 35,457 per year ($17 per hour).  https://www.salary.com/research/salary/ … -sr-salary
                  
                  Waitresses: while wait staff earns a salary of sometimes under minimum wage, tips make up the difference.  Average income for a waitress is $12.88. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes353031.htm
                  
                  Average wage for shipping/receiving workers is $27,567 ($13,25 per hour).  My wife earned $12 some 10 years ago in this field, and my granddaughter, just out of high school, is pulling down $18 per hour doing it.  Both in Idaho; a state notorious for low wages.  https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/ship … KO0,22.htm
                  
                  Of several roles of home health care assistance jobs, the lowest pays over $13 per hour.  https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Home-Care-As … e/salaries
                  
                  While I am certain that someone, somewhere is making minimum wage, it might be wise to do a little research before making such sweeping statements.  While minimum wage jobs are available, they are few and far between; a simple search of the available jobs through a state job service will show that.

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                     Valeantposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                     My source was a little more official:  U.S. Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics

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                        wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                        Odd that I didn't see a link to that "more official" source...

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                           Valeantposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                           Why's that odd?  You wouldn't trust any of my links anyway.

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                              wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                              I actually don't find it odd at all.  It's pretty common when proof is offered that a claim is false and there is nothing to use as a rebuttal.

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         gmwilliamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

         Exactly.   Minimum wage jobs are an entrance, not a lifetime career.  Why don't people realize this?   People (well, intelligent/ambitious people) don't remain on minimum wage for a lifetime, c'mon folks.  Minimum wage jobs are an....ENTRANCE.   Totally agree with Wilderness here.

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            CHRIS57posted 3 years agoin reply to this

            If you look at statistic numbers, this "ENTRANCE" accounts for some 25% of GDP. I would say too much for the porch of the economic house.
            
            Looks like most people never leave the entrance.

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