First Lousiana and now Oklahoma. What/who's next? The Bible?
Back in June there was fervor of praise and also discontent about requiring all K-12 classrooms displaying the 10 Commandments.
Louisiana law requiring the Ten Commandments in classrooms challenged in lawsuit published by PBS News June 24, 2024
"BATON ROUGE, La. (AP) — Civil liberties groups filed a lawsuit Monday challenging Louisiana’s new law that requires the Ten Commandments to be displayed in every public school classroom.
Opponents of the measure, which was signed into law by Republican Gov. Jeff Landry last week, had long warned of an impending lawsuit to fight the legislation that they say is unconstitutional.
Plaintiffs in the suit include parents of Louisiana public school children, the American Civil Liberties Union, Americans United for Separation of Church and State, and the Freedom From Religion Foundation."
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/l … in-lawsuit
Louisiana governor defends 10 Commandments in schools mandate: 'The US is founded on Judeo-Christian values' by Fox News (June 21, 2024)
https://www.foxnews.com/media/louisiana … ian-values
"Louisiana Gov. Jeff Landry is defending the state’s mandate to display the Ten Commandments in classrooms, explaining that the United States was founded upon "Judeo-Christian" principles.
"I didn't know that living the Ten Commandments is a bad way to live life," Landry told ‘America Reports’ on Friday. "I didn't know that it was so vile to obey the Ten Commandments. I think that speaks volumes about how eroded this country has become. I mean, look, this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and every time we steer away from that, we have problems in our nation. I mean, right now, schools... basically treat kids like critters and yet the Ten Commandments is something bad to put in schools? It's just amazing, it really is."
Now, Oklahoma is going to require K-12 to teach the Bible. From Reason online magazine we discover;
"Every teacher, every classroom in the state will have a Bible in the classroom and will be teaching from the Bible in the classroom," state Superintendent Ryan Walters announced last week."
Oklahoma To Require Public Schools To Teach the Bible by Reason online Magazine
https://reason.com/2024/07/05/oklahoma- … pid=306332
"Effective immediately, all Oklahoma schools are required to incorporate the Bible, which includes the Ten Commandments, as an instructional support into the curriculum," reads Walters' memo. "The Bible is one of the most historically significant books and a cornerstone of Western civilization, along with the Ten Commandments. They will be referenced as an appropriate study of history, civilization, ethics, comparative religion, or the like, as well as for their substantial influence on our nation's founders and the foundational principles of our Constitution."
OPINION: Without the Bible, schools don’t have a prayer. Oklahoma has a solution published at Fox News (July 3, 2024)
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/without … s-solution
"I just announced that Oklahoma schools would incorporate the Bible into their educational curriculum for grades 5-12 in the 2024-2025 school year. The backlash has been as venomous as it has been completely predictable. Let me be clear: we will teach the Bible.
The simple fact of the matter is that the Bible is the most consequential piece of literature in the history of Western civilization. Whether or not one chooses to accept it as the inspired word of God, there is simply no way to fully understand the history of this country, the world in which it was founded, or the millennia of human events that led up to the making of America without being at least somewhat conversant in what it contains. "
Thoughts, criticisms, or accolades?Tim, I warned everybody that this was coming, do people not understand its implications? Give an inch and they will take a mile every time.
I heard you! I think Pandora's Box is slowly opening. Or, true to the mythological story, the lid is coming off the jar. Alas, once the box is closed and all hell is released upon the world (US) or the lid placed back on the jar, Hope remains. But, whose?
Its the pendulum swinging, when it swings too far in one direction, the opposing forces push for it to swing back.
This has been going on for a long time, and, there is truth to the statement made:
"The simple fact of the matter is that the Bible is the most consequential piece of literature in the history of Western civilization. Whether or not one chooses to accept it as the inspired word of God, there is simply no way to fully understand the history of this country, the world in which it was founded, or the millennia of human events that led up to the making of America without being at least somewhat conversant in what it contains.
Very true, to understand Western Civilization, to understand Enlightenment, Post-Modernism, etc. one first needs to understand what Christianity is, the foundations, the concepts, the Commandments.
You can't reject them unless you first understand them, at a basic level.
That is the problem we have with younger generations today... they are lost because what they have been taught does not have a foundation in what was.
How can you rebel against the Patriarchy and fight for women's rights... when you have grown up in a world that bent over backwards for women, that has made paths easier in all endeavors, easier today for women than it is for men... which shows itself clearly in that over 60% of students seeking higher education today are women, not men???
The pendulum has swung far in the other direction... and still too many are yelling "we have a long way to go!!!"
If the total dysfunction, if not destruction, of society is your goal, then yes there is a long way to go. If the goal was equality, opportunity, and the ability to pursue one's own truth (liberty)... then we achieved that... and now we are in the process of destroying it."How can you rebel against the Patriarchy and fight for women's rights... when you have grown up in a world that bent over backwards for women, that has made paths easier in all endeavors, easier today for women than it is for men... which shows itself clearly in that over 60% of students seeking higher education today are women, not men???"
Yes, the world has bent over backwards for women as it had bent over backwards for men for centuries prior to that. It is just that fear of insecure and weak men of losing unearned privilege that drives the idea that women have it easy. Whose fault is that women are seeking education in greater numbers? They are doing the work and earning the merit. No one has tied the hands of men except those insecure and misogynist types that are intimidated by any deviation from patriarchal ideals regarding their placement for women in the scheme of things.
Your concern about the wayward nature of young people today is to be resolved by making public school students study the Bible based on the tenets of a specific religion? I don't need your foundation and resent the state interfering with First Amendment principles. Study your Christianity and all this in your churches, homes and PRIVATE schools.
And study of religion has to be clinical and certainly not presented in a proselytizing manner.
There cannot be a greater source of hypocrisy in this society than that of organized religion.You are able to hold that very position, that belief, because you understand what Christianity, what the Bible, is/preaches.
Many that came up in the last 35 years, here in America, do not.
Also, I am not arguing for that position, I am explaining why it is happening.
The pendulum IS going to swing back... OR... society IS going to collapse.
The current ideology you support of choose your own reality, be who you want to be, others must respect your reality... no matter how unrealistic (insane) it is... is going to come face to face with the opposition that deals with reality, truth and facts.
If the insanity you support is not defeated here in America, with facts, reality and truth becoming once more the foundation with which we base our society and our laws... then rest assured we will be defeated by the forces outside of our country which DO deal with and accept those truths.
Supporting what the Biden Administration represents and presents to America is like supporting our own suicide on both a national and international level... I cannot put it more simply than that.
This is Trump's America. This is what indoctrination looks like. It's a shame that the children in this poorly educated, underfunded state will suffer the consequences. Oklahoma students are 49th in the country in terms of basic proficiency in math and reading. Nearly 1/2 of all 4th graders in Oklahoma are below grade level readers. Most of these kids will not even be able to read the Bible. It's a race to the bottom between these red States. They clearly can't educate their citizens and instead have elected to indoctrinate them.
If this curriculum becomes policy, teachers will leave the state just as doctors are leaving forced birth states. Funding would also have to be revoked.
Overall, This is a ploy to get the issue to our far-right Supreme Court which, religious extremists believe, will start dismantling that pesky church and state separation thing.
Many of us would like to believe that this aberrant policy would not pass constitutional muster, but with the Supreme Court that the Trump has purchased for us, I am no longer certain the Constitution is still the foundation of our laws.
Oklahoma has stepped up to bring the case.
Adherence to this mandate is "compulsory” and “immediate and strict compliance is expected,” it reads... Also, teachers who refuse to comply will lose their job and may have their license revoked. Gotta love authoritarianism, Theocracy right? Will they be purchasing Trump Bibles to use in the curriculum?
Sounds like the Christian version of Sharia law, next comes the morality police.
Disturbing is the absence of outrage from all the alleged ‘patriots’. The ones who love their country, and by definition of their stance, love the constitution that defines America and grants citizens rights and freedoms. Particularly rights in the first 10 amendments, the first of which guarantees freedom of, or freedom from, religion. Why the silence from MAGA?
Isn't this part of project 2025?Oops? Picking on Oklahoma's students' reading proficiency might not be a strong point. Google says that in 2024, 2/3 of Illinois students tested below grade level. In Chicago, it's 3/4 of students that read below grade level.
Google also says New York's numbers are nearly the same as Oklahoma's (your numbers). *shrug*
GAhmmm . . . *shrug*
"On average, 79% of U.S. adults nationwide are literate in 2024. 21% of adults in the US are illiterate in 2024. 54% of adults have a literacy below a 6th-grade level (20% are below 5th-grade level). Low levels of literacy costs the US up to 2.2 trillion per year."
[Edit] U.S. Literacy Rates by State 2024
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state … s-by-stateMy family (and school memories) must be outliers. We were early readers and my school memories don't include any 'remedial reading class' friends.
This is a perfect spot to repeat a brag: my grandson is now four and is reading at the First Grade reading level (5 - 7 yrs. old). He was reading at kindergarten level at 3 1/2. Ha! I did that! (we have him 2 days a week) I will have him at the 2nd-grade level by his Kindergarten enrollment in September.
GAKudos to you meant sincerely. Maybe he will be president! Just keep him away from a smart phone.
Too late. He's already voice-command and scroll-and-tap proficient. But he doesn't get to do that at my house unless we're doing it together.
Your quip might have been in jest but I think it is a real 'thing' that I take seriously.
GA
The basis for my comment..
Oklahoma...#47 in NAEP Reading scores. #49 in Education.
New jersey, Massachusetts are number one and two in reading scores.
The states mentioned in your post, Illinois #11 in reading scores. #16 in education.
New York #13 in reading scores, #12 in education.
The bottom five states? Mississippi, Alabama, West Virginia, New Mexico and Oklahoma. And the kicker? They also experience a sharper decline in proficiency levels from fourth to eighth grade.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states … ing-scoresI saw those rankings in the individual state information. I couldn't get the ranking and proficiency numbers to make sense—together.
Just for Illinois, the question of "What is the student reading proficiency level in Illinois?" The NAEP (National Association for Educational Progress) says only 32% (a 2022 number) of students are grade-level proficient.
I'm not arguing the point I am making, it's just based on Google-sourced (I think the ones I checked are reputable) numbers.
I'm not interested enough to find the correlation between the stated reading proficiency numbers and the listed State rankings, but something is being left out from one or the other.
My point was specific to the reading proficiency charge. Google says it isn't the blow you inferred in your denigration.
GAUltimately I think the superintendent of schools in Oklahoma should focus his energy and efforts on programs that will improve educational outcomes for his students. I'm not sure how Bible study does that. And just my opinion but this man seems to crave the limelight and riding the lucrative right wing gravy train. He has focused a spotlight on himself. Maybe going for a spot in a potential Trump administration?
The man uses a PR firm...Tulsa World has reported that Vought Strategies was hired to get Walters at least 10 national TV and radio appearances each month. Spending up to $30,000 a month of taxpayers money. He claims the appearances are for teacher recruitment.
Reporting by Fox 25 says that despite Walters’ claims that he was using PR for teacher recruitment, emails instead show that Walters is using PR to drive his views and opinions, such as regarding drag queens in classrooms and PETA, and nothing about teacher recruitment.
https://www.savvydime.com/a-state-schoo … n-pr/?ac=2I don't have any business getting into Oklahoma's business. On the concept, 'taught objectively relative to Western cultural history,' as in knowing something about your country's history, I think it would be a plus.
The teachers will be the cause of the success or abuse of the program. It's almost a sure bet that the Civil Rights organizations will be watching.
GA
More info on the OP Topic by PBS Oklahoma education head on mandating the Bible in schools. (07/01/24) Listen to Ryan Walters himself explain it in an interview.
https://www.pbs.org/video/teaching-the- … 719872262/
"A new directive from Oklahoma’s top education official requires all public schools to teach the Bible and the Ten Commandments. It comes weeks after Louisiana mandated the display of the Ten Commandments in classrooms. Stephanie Sy discussed more with Ryan Walters, the author of the order and Oklahoma’s state superintendent of public education."Lol... The superintendent cut to the chase by stating he feels "confident with Trump's Supreme Court nominees" to uphold his mandate.
For me, that said it all. Trump is responsible for all this nonsense. He owns it and Dems should be publicly throwing it in his face at every opportunity. The same for project 2025 which is based on what Heritage has officially dubbed "Trumpism" it's too late for him to attempt to distance himself from any of this.The Pendulum swings, in some states.
Is that enough to save the United States?
If you consider the progression of our Nation throughout history, well, to put it simply, the statement "two steps forward, one step back" seems apt.
It cannot be a continual push in one direction, one side cannot constantly win.
If America becomes that, which we most certainly are very close to, in reality, if not in practice, without correction allowed, we will be worse off than China or Russia... because unlike those nations, we have no cultural cohesion, no historical unity going back thousands of years.
America is a melting pot in the very real sense, and while always predominantly a 'Western' and euro-centric society, which helped unify the nation in times of trouble in the past... today we do not have that to fall back on.
This is evident on college campuses and the protests against our support for Israel.
As it is in what I call our Open Border policy of allowing the tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to get a government handout in by the millions.
This is not the America of 100 years ago, where millions of workers are needed to fill the factories that built America's Age of Industry.
America does not need to add tens of millions of non-citizens to its Social Security rolls. America does not need tens of millions of uneducated workers, our nation produces plenty of those these days.
Industry is exploding in Asia and India today, what America produces is becoming a smaller portion of the global percentage of trade and GDP every year, noticeably smaller... compounded by the fact that our Universities are turning out less and less American STEM students and more and more Social Justice warriors.
Social Justice does not build the buildings or design new computer chips.You seem to be bouncing from one wall to the other. What does that have to do with the Bible being taught in K-12 schools?
The push for it to be taught in schools, in some states, is the push back against things like having Pride Month taught in schools, in some states.
The idea of Pride Month, what it represents, would not have been considered appropriate 20 years ago and would have been rejected in almost all schools throughout the country.
"Social Justice does not build the buildings or design new computer chips"
Can we walk and chew gum at the same time?
Acknowlegement of one does not exclude the value of the other.
"America is a melting pot in the very real sense, and while always predominantly a 'Western' and euro-centric society, which helped unify the nation in times of trouble in the past... today we do not have that to fall back on."
And what of the fate of those that are not European and Western that live here?Two steps forward, one step back.
The implementation of change that we are seeing would be difficult to get the nation to adhere to, as it is, without push back.
Now compound those changes by the fact that America's place in the world is being diminished, significantly and quicker than the 'experts' had anticipated or wrote about even 5 years ago.
That diminishing of America is happening on the international stage and at home on an economic level, which all Americans, that are not wealthy, have been feeling with increasing intensity (inflation & interest).
If we continue to move forward, with this Administration, with these ideological beliefs for our society, and with people who believe we can still dictate to the world what direction it is going to go in... then America is heading into possibly the worst times ahead in more than a century.
I am not trying to be hyperbolic, but as I have stated often, this is the worst Administration we have seen in our lifetimes and it is not even close.
The damage that has been done, will be compounded, and will become apparent in short order, if the Biden Administration continues on past 2024.
Is it deliberate, do they have a plan, is this part of Agenda 2030 and the Great Reset... perhaps... those goals and agendas come at the expense of America as we have known it, they come at the expense of our freedom of speech, our ability to own property and assets... in short everything that made America different from almost all other nations some 200+ years ago.
Maybe this is the plan... history rhymes... the dollar has reached the end... time for another World War... time for death and destruction, tyranny and oppression. That is what I see on the horizon with 4 more years of Biden.
A deep dive into the OP Topic. The Bible & Public Schools: A First Amendment Guide by National Bible Association and First Amendment Center (1999).
https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/ … chools.htm
"The Search for Common Ground
Ending the confusion and conflict about the Bible and public schools would be good for public education and for our nation. But finding common ground will not be easy because Americans have been divided about this issue since the early days of the common school movement. "Bible wars" broke out in the 19th century between Protestants and Catholics over whose version of the Bible would be read each morning in the classroom. Lawsuits in the 1960s led to Supreme Court decisions striking down devotional Bible-reading by school officials. More recent conflicts have involved differences about the limits of student religious expression and the constitutionality of Bible courses offered in the curriculum."
What do the courts say,
"The Supreme Court has held that public schools may teach students about the Bible as long as such teaching is "presented objectively as part of a secular program of education."6
6. School District of Abington Twp v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203, 225 (1963). See Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39, 42 (1980) (per curiam).A 2023 survey by Intelligent shares;
Overall, one-third of respondents said they believe it is acceptable to have religion in public schools, and of this group our survey found:
** 85% believe that having religion in public schools would improve student morality, decrease school shootings
** 52% say it’s acceptable for school staff to give advice based on their religious beliefs; 66% say it’s acceptable to have school-led prayer
** The majority of proponents identify as religious Christians
1 in 3 Americans agree with putting religious instruction in public schools
https://www.intelligent.com/1-in-3-amer … c-schools/Since we have drifted toward literacy just saw this posted at Facebook. Thought it may draw a chuckle and a frown at the same time. Do you know what I mean?
What's wrong, they got the contraction right?
GA ;-)
An inquiring mind asks, what is the difference between teaching the Bible in school and teaching the correct Black history?
From The Hill, Oklahoma is turning a blind eye on its own history (07/16/23) comes;
https://thehill.com/opinion/education/4 … n-history/
"Oklahoma Gov. Kevin Stitt signed a law targeting “critical race theory” in May 2021. The law prohibits public schools from teaching concepts that would cause students to “feel discomfort, guilt, anguish, or any other form of psychological distress” because of their race or gender. Since the law was implemented, two school districts have had their accreditation downgraded due to their instruction on race."
Now, looking at the underlined part what is the difference between a student who is Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, and etc. feeling uncomfortable, guilt, anguish, or any other form of psychological distress because of their religion since the Bible will be taught in schools.
Shouldn't the same logic/reasoning apply giving cause not to teach the Bible in K-12 Schools?That is an excellent point, Tim. I am waiting for these all knowing conservative types to provide an answer as to the difference. I will probably be waiting for a while.
Perhaps, in their silence they will confirm that they are in fact the proselytizing racists that I always suspected that they were.I can agree with this as you have presented the argument.
And I will bring it back to what has caused 'Bible Belt' States to bring this issue up today... why is Pride Month being forced into the schools?
How much confusion, or harm or discomfort does it cause young children to have LGBTQIP+ pushed onto them?
As to CRT itself...
“Critical race theory has become, in essence, the default ideology of the federal bureaucracy and is now being weaponized against the American people.”
Critical race theory holds that racism is systemic in the United States, not just a collection of individual prejudices — an idea that feels obvious to some and offensive to others. Rufo [see quote above] alleged that efforts to inject awareness of systemic racism and White privilege, which grew more popular following the murder of George Floyd by police, posed a grave threat to the nation.
It’s the latest cultural wedge issue, playing out largely but not exclusively in debate over schools. At its core, it pits progressives who believe White people should be pushed to confront systemic racism and White privilege in America against conservatives who see these initiatives as painting all White people as racist.
Progressives see racial disparities in education, policing and economics as a result of racism. Conservatives say analyzing these issues through a racial lens is, in and of itself, racist. Where one side sees a reckoning with America’s past and present sins, another sees a misguided effort to teach children to hate America.
Trump [via an Executive Order] instructed the federal government to cancel all diversity trainings.
The order was rescinded by President Biden on his first day of office, but in the months since, complaints voiced by Rufo and others have only grown louder.
The Florida State Board of Education banned teaching that racism is “embedded in American society and its legal systems in order to uphold the supremacy of white persons."
[Rufo] pointed to three examples of what he said were woke politics gone amok inside the federal government — at the Treasury Department, Sandia National Laboratories and the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
The Treasury Department, he said, had hired a diversity consultant named Howard Ross who “told Treasury employees essentially that America was a fundamentally white supremacist country and, I quote, 'Virtually all White people uphold the system of racism and white superiority.’”
Rufo said that Ross was “essentially denouncing the country” and asking White Treasury employees “to accept their White privilege, accept their white racial superiority.” A post about this training on Rufo’s website is headlined, “Treasury Department tells employees all white people are racist.”
To support these conclusions, Rufo posted a 33-page document prepared for the Treasury on his website, but the document does not say that all White people are racist or that America is a fundamentally white supremacist country. It does not ask White people to accept “their white racial superiority.”
The document does advise participants not to “shy away from language like ‘Whiteness,’ ‘racism,’ ‘white supremacy’ and 'allyship.’" It includes, as part of a list of resources, a link to a YouTube video of Robin DiAngelo, author of “White Fragility.” The document summarizes the video by saying she “discusses the roots of White supremacy, of which she asserts virtually all White people, regardless of how 'woke’ they are, contribute to racism.”
A Treasury Department spokesperson did not dispute the authenticity of the document. She said that participation in this event was voluntary but thousands of employees chose to attend. The agency continues to host diversity and inclusion events for employees across the department, she said.
Rufo’s second target on Fox News was Sandia National Laboratories, a contractor to the Energy Department that works on nuclear weapons and national security. The lab sent White men in senior leadership positions to a four-day training program.
Documents Rufo posted show that sessions focused heavily on White and male privilege, and the company that sponsored the program confirmed as much. One page lists more than 60 examples of White privilege such as “not being rejected for a loan,” assuming local schools are of good quality and being accepted into a country club.
In one session, participants appear to have been encouraged to volunteer assumptions about White men. Rufo noted that phrases mentioned included highly negative terms such as “KKK,” “mass killings” and “Aryan Nation.” But many other words were also on the page, including “patriotic,” “baseball,” “football,” “capitalist,” “Founding Fathers,” “boss” and “beer.”
Rufo also alleged that the program “forced (participants) to write letters of apology to women and people of color,” but there is no evidence of that.
Participants were asked to write statements “directed at women, people of color and other groups” about the meaning of the event. Several people wrote that they had a better appreciation for other people’s perspectives or that they came to understand that they had privileges others do not, though most did not apologize. At least one person did, saying he was sorry “for the times I have not stood up for you to create a safe place” and “for the time I’ve spent not thinking about you.”
The goal of the event was to create a safe space where White men could talk openly about their experiences and feelings, said Wayne Pignolet, the chief operating officer of White Men as Full Diversity Partners, the company that sponsored Sandia’s program. Ultimately, he said, this will lead to more inclusive leaders and workplaces.
“I think a lot of it is creating enough safety to work through whatever resistance they have,” he said. “We don’t 'reeducate’ or force anyone to do anything, nor do we shame or blame people. … We help them create cultures where people feel like they can come to work and be valued.”
This program was not mandatory, but team supervisors, managers and other senior officials were required to choose an unconscious bias training to attend from a list of several options, an Energy Department spokeswoman said.
Rufo did not reply directly when asked to identify what, in the documents he has posted, supports his specific allegations about Treasury and Sandia, such as that Treasury employees were told to “accept their white racial superiority” or that Sandia workers were forced to apologize. He said the answer could be found in the original source materials but did not specify where.
The third example Rufo cited on Fox News related to the FBI and workshops it apparently planned on intersectionality, which looks at categorizations such as race, class and gender and how they create overlapping and interdependent systems of discrimination.
Rufo called intersectionality “a hard left academic theory that reduces people to a network of racial, gender and sexual orientation identities and intersect in complex ways and determine whether you are an oppressor or oppressed.” He added that White straight men are “obviously … at the top of this pyramid of evil.”
The flier made none of those points. It spoke about how various identities “combine and multiply to result in unique forms of discrimination.” The FBI declined to comment.
Full Article Here:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/educatio … publicans/
My thoughts on CRT... well I have seen videos, of teachers and what they can present in class, the opportunity for this to be abused, to be made into a detrimental tool used against children.
The opportunity to plant into "white" children's minds that they are bad, or evil, or ancestors of people who owned slaves (when we know 98% of them are more likely to be descendants of serfs, or freemen that had to work their arses off to get everything they got).
The question is when such topics should be brought up... when you are going to create a social cast system based on victimhood and oppression, I guess you need to start at a very young age."The purpose of the commemorative month is to recognize the impact that lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender individuals have had on history locally, nationally, and internationally.”
Nobody says to promote the lifestyle, just acknowledge that they exist and the individuals have made contributions.
Why do conservatives have to be so anal about everything?
They said the same thing about Black History Month and the period set aside to estol the achievement of women in our society at one time.
That is contrary to the belief that the only individuals that should be part of American history are straight white males and until recently that was the way that it was. Well, that is not good enough.
-------
Critical race theory has become, in essence, the default ideology of the federal bureaucracy and is now being weaponized against the American people.”
Critical race theory holds that racism is systemic in the United States, not just a collection of individual prejudices — an idea that feels obvious to some and offensive to others. Rufo alleged that efforts to inject awareness of systemic racism and White privilege, which grew more popular following the murder of George Floyd by police, posed a grave threat to the nation.
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Sorry, Ken, this is just more bullsh*t. Systemic racism is what HAD defined America and the residual effects of it resonates in various forms within our society today. Separate but Equal "Jim Crow" was far more than the bigotry of a handful of individuals but was codified into law by the court in 1896. Plessy vs Ferguson, surely you are aware of that. Who would think that I wouldn't be? From race based slavery, regardless of how you continue to mitigate that truth, to discriminatory housing practices, blacks being denied benefits from the GI Bill after WW II, America is guilty as charged.
These actions through both law and custom have been systemic, anyone that would say otherwise is lying for political purposes.
---
"Progressives see racial disparities in education, policing and economics as a result of racism"
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If not all much of it is......That is an excellent reply.
And as 'white guy' as I may be, I can acknowledge your position as a fair and weighty point.
Black History Month, understood. Women's... sure, and let me not get detoured.
But.... when LGB decided to include T and P... the line was crossed, and then, as everyone in society begins to realize the line has been crossed, they give it that extra push... in Target ... in the MSM messaging, especially when they report about those Elementary Schools celebrating Pride Month. Or show kids at Drag Shows.
1st graders being exposed to how to give BJs in school books that target young, impressionable, kids.
Bills being introduced, one in CT making it so that Pedophilia is not a crime.
Full grown Men, who think they are a woman, competing with Teens in HS sports, sending girls to the hospital. In College, beating out all the girls to win the scholarship.
Come on man, there is only one reaction the majority of America is STILL going to give to that nonsense.
When you and I are no longer around to argue about it... that won't be the case, by then all the LGBTP Pride Month celebrations in K-12 will have done the job.
"I can agree with this as you have presented the argument."
Thanks for the reply.
All the rest I think is pure BS.No, it's not BS, at worst it's another opinion or perspective on the matter.
Like many, even those who write for the NYT how bad it has become is difficult to get out. She would know better than most:
https://youtu.be/wKHSE9eISRg?si=ZP6gEx5v5X9DxZrRA little off topic, Tim
I went to San Diego for my mom's 91st birthday party last July 1st, she lives in a high rise downtown there with my younger brother who is doing a superb job in the elder care department.
I was in and out for only 3 days and if I had more time, I would have looked you up.
San Diego is such a lovely and laid-back city. Being there reminded me about how much I love California in spite of the $5.00 gas.Cool, Cred! A 91st birthday deserves to be celebrated! It gives me the impression you are definitely a loving son to make the journey. And, kudos to your brother!!
It would have been pretty cool to meet up. Next time.
I live in Escondido about 30 - 45 minutes north of San Diego downtown about 20 miles inland. Yes, it still has the influence of the coast lifestyle upon the region. Though appearances say laid back, it is quite an industrious region. Like everywhere there are challenges.
BTW . . . just something to toss out there, four of the team members for the Olympic Skateboarder team are from San Diego.
San Diego skaters join Team USA for the 2024 Paris Olympics by KPBS (July 2, 2024)
https://www.kpbs.org/news/living/2024/0 … s-olympics
Since this was put in place by the elected officials of these states...is it possible this move has the support of the majority of the people?
Elected representatives aren't going to do anything like this unless they have the solid support of their constituents.
Shouldn't a state have the right to have the Ten Commandments in their schools if they so choose?Elected representatives aren't going to do anything like this unless they have the solid support of their constituents.
Representatives have shown over and over that they do not always operate in terms of what their constituents want. The abortion issue is a good example.
But as long as they have the support of the constituents to violate the constitution that's all good? Is that where we are these days? As long as the majority of my neighbors feel that it's okay to shove the commandments down the throats of my children I should be good with that? So what if the Constitution says otherwise?
This issue would be similar to the forced birth issue in that everywhere citizens have fought and won the right to put abortion on the ballot, they have won the ability to overturn draconian laws supported by their elected reps. . The commandments issue would be no different, so of course we will see the elected representatives fighting to suppress a vote. If citizens were allowed to vote on this issue, I'm fairly certain they would uphold the constitutional principle of freedom from religion.
But since when do we vote upon following the Constitution? Maybe we could put up second amendment rights for vote? Freedom of assembly rights? Freedom of speech? Should a majority of my State's citizens decide on these constitutional issues while they're at it?
Republicans these days seem to want the government involved in absolutely every corner of our lives.Have you ever heard of the Bill of Rights, Mike? There are certain rights that can not be legislated away or subject to popular sovereignty. So If one state wanted to enslave all nonwhites do the majority get to decide this or the state legislature?
It is obvious that Conservatives have no real understanding of what the Constitution is all about.Obviously you believe you have a real understanding of the US Constitution.
So, tell me, in the Bill of Rights, where does it forbid putting up the ten commandments in a school?I will, The First Amendment prohibits religious establishment. As the Constitutional Law scholar, you surely know that means the state is not allowed promote or advocate a religion. The school board is an extension of the state and thus a government imposing religious tenets on those against their will in a public facility controlled by that Government that require compulsory attendance by minors under the age of 16 in most states. So when you introduce your mandatory placards into a public school classroom that constitutes "establishment". Do you understand?
We have had religious icons all over the country that have not survived court examination. Everyone in the country recognizes and understands the prohibition against the state establishing a religion - any religion.
Unfortunately, a great many don't care what our law is, or what the basis of our country (freedom from religion) is - they want their religion forced on everyone. We now have two states, and thousands of people in those states, that follow that philosophy - My religion is right and true, and it demands that everyone follow it. It is a concept that requires a continual fight to stamp it out.On that point, I can't agree with you more, Wilderness.
And here's the counter argument.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
1. It is not necessary to establish the Christian religion. It has been established and around for over 2,000 years. In court arguments, people have brought up the federalist papers and argued "no law respecting an establishment of religion" deals with a government established religion such as the Church of England.
2. "prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
Government can't stop the free expression of religion. If the majority of people in a particular state vote for representatives who put the Ten Commandments in a school, the federal government can't stop their expression of religion.
Are you worried about Muslim student in schools? In Michigan, Muslim students are permitted to leave class and go to their prayer rooms. This is because the local school board and people in the community felt this was necessary.
Are you aware there are schools that expect all students to fast during the month of Ramadan like the Muslim students?
So, the Muslims get their schools to follow Ramadan no matter how it affects the students of other religions and can be excused from class to go pray. They have schools that offer Muslim meals no matter how it affects children of other religions.
Christians have the Ten Commandments voted on by elected officials.
The government isn't permitted to prohibit the free exercise of religion.So, let me counter your counter...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause
"The Establishment Clause is a limitation placed upon the United States Congress preventing it from passing legislation establishing an official religion, (((and by interpretation making it illegal for the government to promote theocracy or promote a specific religion with taxes.))) The Free Exercise Clause prohibits the government from preventing the free exercise of religion. While the Establishment Clause prohibits Congress from preferring one religion over another, it does not prohibit the government's involvement with religion to make accommodations for religious observances and practices in order to achieve the purposes of the Free Exercise Clause."
Is that not what the states of Louisiana and Oklahoma are doing?
The "free exercise" cannot be based on coercion. Coercion cannot be interpreted as "free exercise"
Your examples of the Muslims is accommodation and is this situation in a public school?
Their mere absence from class
does not constitute coercion or establishment. Do they disrupt the school day and routine with their prayer regimen?
It was interesting to note that further in my reading that it acknowledged that religious as well as other materials associated with the Founding could be discussed optionally and clinically. But this tablet of Moses is the only aspect of any such documents that are to be mandatorily displayed in public schools, why is that?
Private schools are private schools, I am not using my tax dollars to support them, so I don't care what their practices are.
It would help if you would document your examples.Thankyou for your interpretation provided by Wikipedia.
A site not known for its legal scholars.
"prohibits Congress from preferring one religion over another"
It also does not prohibit people who are elected officials doing what their constituents want like posting the ten commandments. If the government did this without the consent of the voters that would be one thing. When it is done with the full support of the voters, that is how a representative republic works.
"But this tablet of Moses is the only aspect of any such documents that are to be mandatorily displayed in public schools, why is that?"
Because that is something desired by the people of these states.
"Their mere absence from class
does not constitute coercion or establishment. Do they disrupt the school day and routine with their prayer regimen?"
Posting the ten commandments doesn't disrupt the school day or routine."Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Try as I might, I cannot see anywhere here that a majority vote gives the government the right to establish a religion, at any level whatsoever. Can you point it out?Saynwhat you will about Wiki. Well, Mike I have not seen any more compelling sources from you supporting your position.
You just don't see, do you? The Government compelling the posting of religious tenets in a public school is the Government showing preference for a religion.
You keep forgetting that the Bill of Rights prohibits any government establishment of religion or involuntary servitude regardless of whether it is voted in by a majority or so legislated. You do know that the Bill of Rights is applicable at ALL levels of American government. Do you understand what that means? What is going on in the states of Oklahoma and Louisiana is in clear violation of that principle of "establishment". And as Tim pointed out in his post, the Courts have made it clear that it is not acceptable.
I don't want to be proselytized by anyones religious doctrine. Why can't you Conservatives be content to keep your religiousity at either your churches or your private homes? Even this right wing tribunal called a Supreme Court will have to bend over backwards to allow what is happening in Louisiana and Oklahoma to stand.
Like I said earlier, from this conversation you have a great deal to learn about how the Constitution WORKS...."You just don't see, do you? The Government compelling the posting of religious tenets in a public school is the Government showing preference for a religion".
Folks on the right seem to think that they can skirt around the Constitution by simply polling our neighbors.. And that is their most generous interpretation. They rather like to rely on the idea that the whims of elected politicians should prevail by default , no vote needed there. By electing Joe Blow, you have committed your support to whatever his imagination dreams up. Constitutional or not.. it's just more hypocrisy. Dig out the Constitution when it's advantageous but then throw it under the bus when it's not.That is becoming more obvious by the day. Majority rule did not discourage Republican legislatures in their undemocratic reisistance on losing the Abortion Rights plebiscites and ballot issues in a few states over the last year or two
You spelled "Biden" wrong - there is no "l" in it.
"You just don't see, do you? The Government compelling the posting of religious tenets in a public school is the Government showing preference for a religion."
What I see is elected officials doing the will of the people. Don't you get it? The government isn't showing preference for a religion, the people are the ones showing the preference. They voted on it when they voted in their elected officials.
That is how it works in representative republic.
It's just like the town in Michigan where the people voted to allow loudspeakers to announce the call to prayer. The majority of the people there voted for it.
By doing the will of the people the government is not "prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
I would bet my understanding of how the Constitution against yours any day any moment of any day. Don't get me started.Yeah, I will start ya! If you don't understand these basic concepts, there would not be much of a challenge.
But, it is pointless, You are wrong, your interpretation is incorrect as has been pointed out by a couple of forum participants on this thread.
By the way, a couple of rightwing regulars in this forum provided an analogy as to what happens if there are 5 wolves and 2 sheep and the decision has to be made as to who is to be on the menu. All the wolves by your misinterpretation of the meaning of majority rule would vote for the sheep, so the sheep are to be devoured. Is there not any protection for the sheep beyond the whim of the majority desire of the wolves?
The Constitution speaks of rights that are inviolate that we as individuals have that cannot be voted or legislated away, but obviously you missed that memo....I think you are completely wrong.
There are many who agree with me.
That is why we have courts so both sides can provide their interpretation of things and reach a decision.
I could go on, but I don't see any common ground.
The will of the people, even if 100% of them, does not override the Constitution.
It's all how you interpret the Constitution.
For over a hundred years the Bible and more were permitted in public schools. That is how the US Constitution was interpreted.
In the 1960s, Madalyn Murray O'Hair, got the interpretation of the US Constitution changed.
We may now be approaching another interpretation of the US Constitution in regards to the freedom of religion.Very true, the idea of people being atheists 200+ years ago was not a popular concept and it certainly wasn't promoted in society or government.
But 200+ years ago slavery across the world was very much a part of how society operated.
The changes that occur most often reflect the wants of society, or in the case of slavery, more of a result of the Industrial revolution than the enlightenment of society. One could argue that, none of us were there.
When it comes to the Bible or Commandments being in the schools... when you take that out, what are you replacing it with, where are the mores of society and morality to come from?
It appears we have replaced them with self-centered individualism, pornography, pedophilia, Pride Month and all sorts of wonderful things leading to the demise of our society and social cohesion.I have, in the past, found it to be an almost exclusive liberal thing to "interpret" the Constitution any way convenient to what they want, and to change it's meaning according to prevailing political desires.
I never saw you as a liberal - have you changed or is it the majority of conservatives that have decided the Constitution is worthless, useless and therefore subject to change at will?Very interesting discussion, touching on this matter among others.
Between minutes 5 and 20, you will be intrigued, or not, by that time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtQ0qxyf-Ds"exclusive liberal thing to "interpret" the Constitution"
The founding fathers set up the SCOTUS to interpret the Constitution.
Thomas Jefferson saw it this way.
Interpreters of the Constitution
"One view, espoused by Thomas Jefferson, among others, is that each of the three branches of government may interpret the Constitution when it relates to the performance of the branch’s own functions.1 And this view appears to have been popular in Congress during the early days of the United States, as shown by the amount of time that Members of Congress devoted to debating the constitutional limitations on legislation during the first 100 years of the Nation.2 Similarly, when he vetoed the reauthorization of the Bank of the United States, President Andrew Jackson argued that the President was the final interpreter of the Constitution for executive functions. Dismissing the Supreme Court’s 1819 decision in McCulloch v. Maryland, which upheld the constitutionality of the Bank,3 Jackson contended that the opinion of the judges has no more authority over Congress than the opinion of Congress has over the judges, and on that point the President is independent of both.4 With regard to the judiciary, in Marbury v. Madison, the Supreme Court, early in the history of the United States, famously asserted its authority to interpret the Constitution when reviewing the constitutionality of governmental action in a case or controversy properly before the Court."
https://constitution.congress.gov/brows … _00000034/
Most certainly both Louisiana and Oklahoma will wind up in court. In 1980 the Supreme Court ruled that schools in Kentucky cannot display the ten commandments. The bottom line is they stated in the decision;
1
A Kentucky statute requires the posting of a copy of the Ten Commandments, purchased with private contributions, on the wall of each public classroom in the State.1 Petitioners, claiming that this statute violates the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses of the First Amendment, 2 sought an injunction against its enforcement. The state trial court upheld the statute, finding that its "avowed purpose" was "secular and not religious," and that the statute would "neither advance nor inhibit any religion or religious group" nor involve the State excessively in religious matters. App. to Pet. for Cert. 38-39. The Supreme Court of the Commonwealth of Kentucky affirmed by an equally divided court. 599 S.W.2d 157 (1980). We reverse.
2
This Court has announced a three-part test for determining whether a challenged state statute is permissible under the Establishment Clause of the United States Constitution:
3
"First, the statute must have a secular legislative purpose; second, its principal or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion . . .; finally the statute must not foster 'an excessive government entanglement with religion.' " Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602, 612-613, 91 S.Ct. 2105, 2111, 29 L.Ed.2d 745 (1971) (citations omitted).
See the full decision at;
Sydell STONE et al. v. James B. GRAHAM, Superintendent of Public Instruction of Kentucky. by Legal Information Institute
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/449/39
Will this apply with the Louisiana?
Another synopsis by Oyez shares . . .
Facts of the case
Sydell Stone and a number of other parents challenged a Kentucky state law that required the posting of a copy of the Ten Commandments in each public school classroom. They filed a claim against James Graham, the superintendent of public schools in Kentucky.
Question
Did the Kentucky statute violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment?
Conclusion
In a 5-to-4 per curiam decision, the Court ruled that the Kentucky law violated the first part of the test established in Lemon v. Kurtzman, and thus violated the Establishment Clause of the Constitution. The Court found that the requirement that the Ten Commandments be posted "had no secular legislative purpose" and was "plainly religious in nature." The Court noted that the Commandments did not confine themselves to arguably secular matters (such as murder, stealing, etc.), but rather concerned matters such as the worship of God and the observance of the Sabbath Day.
Stone vs. Graham published Oyez
https://www.oyez.org/cases/1980/80-321
Pew Research in 2007 shares information on religious displays that includes Stone vs. Grisham. It also discusses court cases on matters like displaying Nativity Scenes.
Religious Displays and the Courts by Pew Research (June 27, 2007)
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/20 … he-courts/
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