Let's open this with examples.
The Moon's diameter is 3,474 kilometres.
Lie - (This won the 2009 Lie of the Year Award - Politifact)
"The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's "death panel" so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their "level of productivity in society," whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil." Sarah Palin
I think the moon is made of green cheese.
Any time Eric Cantor opens his mouth.
But let's open the discussion with favorites of yours and reasons.
Doug, I agree with your list, except for the last one. I'm pretty sure that Eric Cantor does speak the facts once in awhile.
And, I think you'll find that many people here really don't care whether something is a fact, lie, opinion, or propaganda, as long as it supports (or doesn't support, depending on what they're trying to say) their deeply entrenched beliefs.
I think you need to keep the examples related, ie.
Fact - The Moon's diameter is 3,474 kilometres.
Lie - The Moons diameter is 3.474 inches
Opinion - I think the Moons diameter is 3,474 kilometers because science supports the fact.
Propaganda - The Moon is 3,474 kilometers in diameter, and will kill you unless you do what I say.
Fact: 2008 and I am standing in the middle of a sit-in-the-road protest chatting to the mostly old ladies and kids, their beef is the level of compensation they were getting for being moved for a road widening scheme. The police were also chatting to them, and me, then they wandered off to redirect traffic. The drivers from the stopped traffic were also chatting to the protesters, me and the police and settling down with tea from a stand that miraculously appeared.
Lie + Propoganda: My sister in the UK calls me to tell me about a violent anti oppressive government demonstration near me that is being broken up by riot police! she wants me to be careful, stay indoors, etc etc. I try to convince her that I am actually standing in the middle of it and it is nothing like she describes.
She tells me that I am wrong and hangs up the phone to send me the proof that she is right in the form of a UK news broadcast clip.
Fact ....Obama is a putz
Lie .....the part where you said Sarah Palin lied.
Opinion.....Sarah Palin is much better than Obama. Actually, that's a very informed opinion.
Propoganda ...anytime Obama opens his mouth.
That would all be opinion, propaganda, and opinionated lies.
So say you.
if that's your real pic in your profile there, I'd like to ask you (if you don't mind answering).....what or who is it that has influenced your views? You look very young, and I'm interested in how some of this nation's youth formulate their opinions, based on what factors or influences?
I am not from the US, but have spent a little bit of time looking at the results of both american parties. this means that I can look at american politics without indoctrination or influence by propaganda.
From my own political opinions I can say that I would swing more democrat, because I agree not only with their statements, but also with their results. I have never judged a political party on what they say, only what they have done.
I can backup my claims of what I said about your first comment because.
Fact ....Obama is a putz - yet he has achieved a position of power and political respect, he goes to work every day, despite the fact that each day he receieves death threats on the life of himself and his family.
Lie .....the part where you said Sarah Palin lied. - Sarah Palin has been caught out in several barefaced lies, and indeed most politicians lie, she is just not a particularly good politician. From an outsiders perspect Palin was simply a last stand pawn attempting to get the womens vote.
Opinion.....Sarah Palin is much better than Obama. Actually, that's a very informed opinion. - That would be your own opinion.
Propoganda ...anytime Obama opens his mouth. All most politician spout is propaganda, again thats why I look at actions not words.
Calling anyone a putz, even Glenn Beck, is an opinion.
Regarding Sarah's lie -
Sarah Palin's facebook claim (Aug 12) in defense of her original claim does not dispute:
1) There are no 'death panels'.
2) Her child with Down Syndrome wouldn't be affected.
(until 2074 when he qualifies for Medicare)
3) There are no 'bureaucrats' anywhere in Section 1233 - only a doctor and patient in consultation.
4) There's no subjective judgement of anybody's
'level of production in society'.
Please explain where any element of her statement checks out factually againdt the section of the bill she referances.
You don't get it, do you?
Obama's agenda, backed by all the liberal nuts in his Cabinet, PLUS the people like Kevin Jennings and others who are now heading our Education system, is being put into force via indoctrination of innocent children and via the twisted form of reverse-psychology those people are playing with (and preying upon others with).
It doesn't even matter whether Palin said something that wasn't literally written down "in stone" in the bill.
SHE (as do I and some others in the good ol' USA) has the sense to read between the lines and foresee the direction Obama is trying to take this nation. And it's a highway to hell, whether the subject is money or social issues or education issues.
I wonder if you would prefer schoolchildren to learn the Biblical Truth instead.
For instance, the Biblical Truth that Jesus Christ condemned divorce and remarriage in no uncertain terms, that remarried couples are living in an unrepentant adulterous marriage, and that they've consigned themselves to an eternity of roasting in Hell, no matter how much they profess love to Jesus and bash other sinners.
Would you support a good ol' Christian educational policy like that, Brenda?
I wonder if you would prefer that this nation's children be taught it's okay to stick their private appendages in a place normally reserved for excrement.
Are you supporting a policy like that? One that Obama has made sure to set in place.
No, I completely agree with you. It's obvious Obama wants to show gay porn to kindergarteners. Probably Muslim gay porn.
I'm glad you support good ol' Christian education instead. Now the only tough part will talking to your grandchildren, explaining to them that grandma is going to roast in Hell forever for being an unrepentant sinner, for turning away from God and getting a divorce.
fact, I am sitting
lie, I am standing
opinion, I am crazy
It's obvious that Obama and his minions want to not only further that agenda, but to make that agenda encompass indoctrinating children that it's okay for OTHERS to stick their appendages into those children's private places normally reserved for excrement.
One of the heads of our Education system is a man who sympathizes (and empathizes) with THAT mindset, the mindset and agenda of NAMBLA.
Now, I'm gonna tell you this only once, livelonger.
Shove off. Stop following me around and personally attacking me.
If you want to discuss things in general, that's your right. Just as it is MY right to state my distaste for the gay lifestyle in general. I don't personally attack anyone. YOU, however, continue to PERSONALLY attack me. You do NOT have a right to do so.
I'm not harrassing you. I'm pointing out again and again what the religion you love believes, and how your own lifestyle is in direct defiance of it. You can run, you can hide, you can play victim, you can pretend there are exceptions for this and that because of "interpretations" and "understandings" you have, but the truth is your marriage has condemned you to an eternity in Hell, according to your own religion.
I'm pointing out your utter hypocrisy in attacking gay people, the vast majority of whom want to live their lives free of the harrassment and lies made by people like you. The propaganda that you are only too willing to perpetuate - that gay people prey on children, that homosexuality is the only sin God cares about - gives comfort and support to people who beat up and kill gay people, and deny them equal rights.
Shove off? Stop bashing gays and calling them pedophiles and you won't hear a peep from me.
Views like yours give comfort and support to people who attack the very moral foundation of this nation, who beat up and attack
straight people, especially Christians, who teach innocent children that there's no such thing as moral RIGHT and WRONG, and deny them their equal rights to even LIFE itself.
As I've stated before, you are no authority on rectitude. You commit the most condemnable offenses according to Jesus Christ, and then pretend to speak on his behalf to give your bigoted viewpoints reasonable-sounding cover.
The fact that you rely on lies and propaganda - untruths - in order to make yourself feel better about holding detestable views about other people is really unsurprising. Humanity has had to deal with people like you from time immemorial, self-serving malevolence an unfortunate trait in many.
The only comfort I have is that younger people are actually becoming more moral, more likely to separate Dark Ages ethics from true morality, and that hateful attitudes like yours are headed the way of the dinosaur.
A great percentage of Christians have (from Roman Catholic, to Protestant, and Armenian and Russian Orthodoxy) persecuted horrifically those deemed "different" from themselves, from religous views (Muslims and Jews to Christians of different perspectives) to those with different understandings of personal relationships.......behaving without regard to "right to life."
Christians hold a special connection to existence and purpose in this life beyond anyone else...and deserve greater rights and protections because of their special relevance...
Opinion: Anyone who believes that Sara Palin is A) sincere B) knowledgeable, or C) capable is a threat to the rest of the nation..
Propaganda (a piece of my own):
Palin not only "sees Russia from her doorstep," but her name is almost Stalin..
..this combined with Dick Cheney's views on the exclusivity of the executive branch and "conservative" subservience to his views and her image point to very troubling scenarious if she was able to ever gain power....what a tool she would be....worse than Bush...
There sure is a lot of anger here. In my opinion, too many are too certain about too much. This is not healthy.
I am intrigued by the Coffee Party -- a movement apparently focused on well-mannered discourse that honors the complexity of the problems and opportunities facing America and the world.
Zealots of the Right and Left tend to generate heat, not light. Let's illuminate the Conversation of Democracy by trying to "meet in the middle"... and stop barking and snarling at each other. Constitutional democracy is a "learning organism" that thrives on thoughtful, fact-based, "gentlemanly" discourse.
I bet you have a whole bucket of sand you bury your head in every so often too.... lol
The inhabitants of the U.S. have been protected and given freedom by not only "gentlemanly discourse" but by the patriots who gave up their limbs and lives to do so.
The good results of gentlemanly discourse ended when citizens started being given the right to spout nonsense and advocate perversion under the umbrella of "healthy discussion".
Brenda, the fact that you have a right to do something does not mean it is the right thing to do.
Why are you so sure, and so angry? Can't you see that ... well, respectful and "gentlemanly" answers turn away wrath, but grievous words stir up the very antithesis of a healthy Conversation of Democracy?
Our world deserves better. Our country was founded on ... hmmm ... the ultimate value of reasoned discourse. No?
Why, Brenda, are you so angry?
I'm angry because not only the far-right liberals, but even people who hold to your "middle" ground continue to cave in to the shout of "tolerance" and wish to entertain mild-mannered, so-called "healthy debate" about several topics where there IS no "healthy" debate. Such as baby-killing and sanctioning sodomy.
Whose wrath are you trying to turn away----God's, or sodomites and abortionists? I don't fear the latter; but I do fear the former, the one who has the Power. And that Lord's forerunner was John the Baptist, who had the boldness to go around shouting REPENT YE, for the Kingdom is at hand, at the peril of his own life being taken. As also did Jesus, and His life He gave for that purpose too.
Americans who cow down under the liberal hogwash are fools, fools who willingly are giving up their children to the devil.
"Give him what he wants and he will go away".......a line from The Perfect Storm.
It would've turned out much differently if the people had been willing to give up THEIR lives instead of their children's lives and feared God instead of the devil.
Does that explain it enough?
As the old saying goes: "No doubt, no enlightenment; little doubt, little enlightenment; much doubt, much enlightenment."
I do not presume to know the Mind of God. In my theology, any God worthy of that hallowed name must celebrate all manifestations of our intellectual humility, for that is the first step towards our attainment of wisdom, as individuals and as an emergent global civilization.
The unexamined life is not worth living, and unexamined truths are not worth having.
It is a theological irony that an omniscient deity can never know the joy I derive from exploring the vast reaches of my own lack of omniscience.
It explains a lot.
I'm sorry I confronted you so directly earlier. I underestimated how tortured a soul you have. You have my sympathies.
Barnabas Johnson - You hit on a good point with 'too certain of too much'. Perhaps you would like to read a series on the subject by Barbara O'Brien called 'The Wisdom of Doubt'.
http://www.mahablog.com/2007/08/03/the- … he-series/
I am a firm believer in the limits of my own certainty and I enjoy civil discourse and discussion. But that doesn't mean I will entertain lies. So much of the opposition to Health Care Reform has been the deliberate product of 'misinformation'. I hate that word, because it dignifies the act of deception.
I was delighted to see A Texan banned - if indeed he was - because in a discussion he refuted a statement I made with a lie. I challenged him on it, and he followed it up with a new lie. This isn't 'reasoned discourse', and those who imitate Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh are going to get rough treatment from me. If a conservative follows the model of William F. Buckley Jr. he will have my respect and get polite, reasoned arguments from me.
I will read the material you suggested. And I agree that there can be too much of a good thing such as "civil discourse" -- especially in the face of monstrous conduct, including deliberate deceits and obfuscations.
Being human, I am bound to err. And I would rather err on the side of too much civility and patience than too little. At this time in this country we need to try to listen more, and better.
Remember "My Fair Lady"? Henry Higgins treated Eliza as a flower girl, so that is the part of herself she felt she had to "be"; but Colonel Pickering treated her as a lady, so that was the part of herself she could "become"! The more we all treat each other as valued humans, the more valued -- better behaved -- we are likely, over time, to become. I know it sounds naive. Maybe it is, especially if pressed too far.
For what it is worth, Obama strikes me as well-mannered, conservative (in the sense Edmund Burke intended by that term), a conscientious listener, an erudite professor, who has known great personal hardship and has internalized a deep capacity for empathy -- to stand in others' shoes, to see the world as others see it. This is a rare gift. That was what most impressed his fellow students, of all political camps, who elected him to serve as president of the Harvard Law Review.
As the saying goes, "No doubt, no enlightenment; little doubt, little enlightenment; much doubt, much enlightenment."
I know others see Obama differently, and I remain open to their arguments why. Yet I also hope they can pay me in that same realm's coin, and listen to why I and many others consider Obama to be a remarkably talented leader who took over as president during a remarkably difficult time. Some say he has spent too much of his first year focused on process rather than product. Maybe they are right. But to me he seems genuinely committed to changing the "atmospherics" of Washington, and of policy formulation most broadly defined. He is playing chess while too many of his critics on the Right and Left are playing checkers, if you get my metaphor.
At some point you have to judge a 'leader' on results, not just what a swell guy you think he is.
And I don't see how cooking up plans behind (literally) locked doors, pushing things on the public that it doesn't want, and treating those who disagree with arrogant dismissiveness can improve the 'atmosphere' in Washington.
How very intolerant, accusatory, vengeful, and biased of you!
Sab Oh - When we pass Health Care, it will be as big a deal as passing Civil Rights Legislation or Medicare or Social Security. And there were opponents to those packages, too. Just try to run for office today based on a platform of restoring Jim Crow and killing health care for seniors. Once it passes, it's here to stay - it may be improved in a number of areas - but it won't be repealed.
Is this another version of the "Shut up, we know what's best for you. You'll take it and you'll like it!" forced lobotomy arrogant argument?
Comparing this mess to Civil Rights is offensive.
If this mess is passed against the wishes of the American people, the 'you must buy' provision will be found unconstitutional, but before that even gets to the highest court changes will have been made by the new Congress that is voted in after the arrogant SOBs insisting they know better are voted out.
No - the argument is that the opinions of the American People are based in a significant part on the deliberate lies that the GOP and insurance industry spread. I went down the short list of lies that we have run into on a different post, but Sarah Palin, Michael Steele, Michele Bachmann have been caught in some huge out-and-out whoppers. Lies! Complete fabrications with no basis in fact. I'm ignoring thenuts like Beck & Limbaugh whose disregard for truth and integrity are givens. And there has been a pernicious campaing by the insurance industry itself, always under the name of something that sounds like a civic group. And they have played fast and loose with the facts.
So like a surgeon with a patient on the table under the anesthesia of deception, the officials we hired to learn the facts and craft a cure have to decide if they will do what's right and save the patient - of the 'popular' think which they know will kill the patient.
And kill the patient is no metaphor. We have to get health care costs under control and NONE of the GOP proposals even remotely address the problem, let alone bring down the deficit 100 billion. On that feature alone, the answer should be clear.
Hi Doug - you talk a lot of sense and give facts and opinions to back up your statements. This means that we can discuss things whether we agree or not and I welcome your presence and input to these forums. You are talking to Saboh - I would not bother if I were you it is just a troll who has been banned before under another weird game-name. It will follow your every posting and then continually post its nonsense and inane comments on your hubs as comments. It is best ignored rather than wasting your time on it.
At least it is sticking to two or three of us now so keeps it busy I guess
Hello Doug - you have the right to your opinion just like everyone else, and your views and experiences are as valid as anyone's. If you are talking to china man - enjoy. You may find you share the same point of view on many subjects and have many pleasant exchanges.
He also has some good, interesting hubs that you'd enjoy reading.
No, actually I'm looking at the computer screen, at your picture or avatar.
Are you admitting you're those things?
from your profile, you're not from the U.S, but are gonna be here?
Even more interested in hearing your response, if you're willing to answer.
If not, that's okay!
Careful Oli - what she means is give her some info so she can call Homeland SSecurity to look at your entry permits !!
My entry visa is all in order and correct
Just waiting for recovery from surgery and then I am on the first flight over! (probably around the 31st!)
Brenda - help us out - who are you asking?
And I am 25, the picture is a couple of years old now, but is of me!
So, you admire Obama because he achieved a position of power?
Or also because you agree with his views on....what?
And because he "goes to work" evey day?
He might as well. That's what the U.S. pays him to do. And it's what we (unfortunately) pay his Cabinet members to do too.
Actually, we pay them to do a good job, not just a job. But they don't figure that's a requirement.
And hey, any President gets death threats. Obama is nothing special in that regard. Nor in any regard!
Obama received a huge amount of death threats, much more than any president before him.
I don't look at Obamas words, I look at his actions, and those of the democratic party versus the republicans. I admire Obama because he achieved a position of power dispite the canches against him.
On what position do you claim Obama is not doing a good job?
Most of what you say seems to be indoctrinated hatred based on the views you have long standing held, rather than any actual arguments for and against.
"I was delighted to see A Texan banned - if indeed he was - because in a discussion he refuted a statement I made with a lie. I challenged him on it, and he followed it up with a new lie."
Im sure you are delighted you had him banned care to tell everyone the lie you refer too?
Yeah, I wish Doug would clear that up too.
But NOT right now because A Texan is not here to defend himself.
At least that's my reasoning on it. A Texan stands accused but banned; not fair at all to keep accusing him of something when he's absent from the forums.
How does anyone with zero hubs get 7 followers? If you are a sockpuppet, perhaps you will identify yourself - inquiring minds want to know.
Most pople recognize by now, I don't pull any punches. And I don't tell any lies, either. (If Imake a mistake, I will admit it, and I do make mistakes.)
I did NOT report A Texan for the homophobic insult he posted. If you flagrantly break the rules, the owners of the service we use for free can pull the plug on YOU Think about it. I'm through talking to you or responding to you until you retract & apologize for the false accusation you made. A lie is a lie and you just told a public whopper about me.
Is Doug a lady? err....a woman?
I don't understand.
Shakespeare - from Hamlet - and intended to be an insult to me as I am a guy - last time I checked. And it fails to answer how a hubber with a score of 6 and no posts has 7 fans....
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