divided we fall

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   kirstenblogposted 13 years ago

   America is divided, in my opinion, and I suspect in many folks opinions. Why? Because of the Democrats? The Republicans? Dubya? The long legged Mac Daddy? (oh you MUST read that one with a cool accent ya hear?)
   
   No America is divided because of ego, no one can be wrong. So lets do something about our over inflated egos shall we?
   
   So what have you been wrong about?
   
   My admission, Bush wasn't as evil as I gave him credit for and Obama is no hero, he is a politician just the same as Bush was, and most likely both were simply puppets used to divide the nation. By the way, well played cause we sure are divided and its bloody sad.

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      habeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Your honesty is refreshing!
      
      Politicians and the government in general want us to be divided because it gives them more power.

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         Petra Vlahposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         "Dividi et Impera" has worked all through history and it's working its magic again.

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            habeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Sad, but true, Petra.

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      bgamallposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      You have no clue as to how evil George Bush was. He allowed 911, and he went into Iraq for oil.
      
      Check out these two videos that offer proof:
      
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeoeGb47olU
      
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0GWoxbMs1k

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   Joy56posted 13 years ago

   I am not American, have no ego, and am never wrong???? thanks  for asking tho
    

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      kirstenblogposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      No ego? Never wrong?
      Somehow I believe ya

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         Joy56posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         You had better believe me.
         
         Answer me this question, i do not wish to be rude in any way shape or form. My son lives in Florida, he teaches world history, and we have been over to the states many times.  We love it, we do not however see any sign that American citizens see anything outside America.... For instance i live in Dublin Ireland.  Could you tell me anything about what is going on here.... We sure as hell no what is going on over there????????????

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            kirstenblogposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Well being as I was told 'if you don't like it leave' many, many times, I now live in London
            
            I know there has been talking about a bail out for the Irish, that it was politely refused, also that it seems that there is a resurgence of IRA activities?
            
            It might well be easier to find a needle in a hay stack then to find an American who knows about the outside world without ever having lived out side the states but they do exist, often because they find it easier to get foreign news on like the radio and such (my adopted mom is like that, she lives so close to the boarder it is easier to get Canadian news then American news)

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            Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Are you asking about America?
            
            Well, our dear President is enacting the agenda he spouted from the start---changing the entire foundation upon which the great United States was built.  We all heard his agenda before he was ever elected, and like fools, America put him in Office.  Conservatives have watched in horror as the Left continued to push their hogwash on us, which has divided us more than the Civil War ever divided us, because it's an insidious attempt to secularize even the youths of America.
            
            Where did the power come from?  Originating from the wiles of the Devil, it's filtered down from anti-American sources like George Soros (and I'm sure higher-ups than he, but we can't put a finger on it because those influential people know how to hide behind everything from their bank accounts to their political puppets;  I wonder often about Henry Kissinger because he's been instrumental in furthering the "New World Order" agenda...) to libs like Ted Kennedy who wielded huge power.
            
            It's a power issue and a moral issue at the heart of it.  When all the new calls for "diversity" and sympathy for devilish concepts came about, a foreigner (some German Official, I think it was) was even able to see what was happening, and he said when a Nation's moral basis starts to crumble, the economic and political status will crumble next.  He was right.
            
            America needs decent leaders, since apparently the majority of Americans are rebelling against both God's authority and man's laws.   The election of a Republican majority in the House of Representatives is a good start toward reviving America's lost integrity and morality, but it won't be enough unless they take the ball and run with it.
            
            We don't need to focus on what's going on in other countries!  We need to fix our own and keep foreign influences out of it.
            Bah humbug on Obama's fake calls for peace.  Bah on his and Pelosi's reign of terror.  Bah on his "change"!  He should be ousted out of Office with just the change he has in his pocket and sent to Africa or somewhere else that WANTS to bow down at his feet.

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            rebekahELLEposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Brenda, you do make a valid point. although there are plenty of Americans that stay informed with global issues, there are those that quite simply don't see the connection between nations. they want to stay cozy with their own affairs and have nothing to do with the rest of the world. it's more ignorance than ego, although those two can go together, can't they?! 
            there are some people who choose to remain ignorant because of pride.

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               Joy56posted 13 years agoin reply to this

               unfortunately many do not even realise there is a world out here at all.....

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                  uncorrectedvisionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I believe there is a more reasonable explanation for American parochialism than ignorance or hostility.  France is the size of Texas.  The population of the US is 300 million.  The geography of the US spans great timberland wilderness in Maine, Idaho and Alaska to vast high deserts in Utah and Nevada to lush farm lands in the Ohio Valley to great sand beaches and seemingly limitless coasts.  The regional and ethnic differences in the US are at least as numerous as Europe but with one unifying language, currency, political system and history.  Immigrants from all over the world bring their richness here.
                  
                  I live in Indianapolis and within 5 minutes of my front door are an Algerian, Afghani, Guatemalan, Mexican, Indian, Japanese, Chinese and Vietnamese restaurant -- and mine is a working neighborhood.  I work with people from Indian, Nigerian, Israel, Puerto Rico (part of the US), Mexico, Romania and almost every state of the US.  I can drive from Key West to Puget Sound and never leave the country, currency, government, my citizenship, common history or heritage behind.  That is over 2700 miles(4400 km) how many languages, countries, ethnic regions would I pass through driving from Lisbon to Odessa.

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                     Joy56posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     I hear you, i know America is great i heard it before.

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                        uncorrectedvisionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        My point isn't the "great" it is the vast and varied.  Not a point of snobbery.

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   Pcunixposted 13 years ago

   It is culture that divides us.
   
   Liberal vs. Conservative.  It's not ego.  We can and do compromise on some of the issues but on others, we really can't.

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      kirstenblogposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      If it really is culture that divides American that is even sadder, as the division will inevitably cause problem after problem. Odd how other cultural melting pots don't have the differing cultures dividing in this way

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         Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I think that many of our problems come from our extreme capitalism.
         
         I don't just mean the abuses of corporations, though that certainly comes into it. I mean that most live in a real fear of poverty, both because of the poor social services here and because of the shame of failing.
         
         The need to constantly worry about money leads to it having far greater significance for most. It fosters greed, a disregard for any educational experience that isn't likely to be financially rewarding, and a distrust of other people who might be "stealing" your money unjustly.
         
         It causes fawning worship of the rich and encourages corruption of all kinds.
         
         I don't mean to imply that replacing capitalism with socialism is better. That has its own problems. I do mean that a softer approach, a somewhat diminished version, would serve us better.
         
         Religion is another unfortunate divider.  America has a high concentration of very religious people and their beliefs do harm us in many ways. On the other side of that is that the rest of us never want to restrict or interfere with those beliefs even when they threaten us,  so we turn a blind eye toward many things that really can hurt us.
         
         As was mentioned above, political ignorance and an insular view of the world is unfortunately common too.
         
         I can't see America surviving in its present form. We need to change, but unfortunately that change is more likely to be violent than peaceful. That saddens me greatly.

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            Joy56posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            hey start the change, wear a new hat....

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               kirstenblogposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Be the change you wish to see?

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            kirstenblogposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I think you have some very valid points there. I agree it is sad that violence seems almost inevitable
            
            I also feel little sympathy for the fear of being poor as an excuse for inexcusable behavior. I grew up pretty poor, on a goat farm that produced all our food. My mom spent a year trading baby goats, meat, eggs, milk and anything we grew just so that he could get me a retainer. My clothing was all hand me down from friends with daughters a year or more older. I was not happy being poor but it wasn't that bad. We lived more in line with how most/all folks used to live before the industrial revolution and the rise of capitalism. What I value from it is the strong belief that in most situations I can survive. I keep learning more and more about wild foods and Ray Mears type survival stuff (that guy gets lost in the woods for a week and gains weight!)

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               Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               I also have been poor and may get there again if things keep going as they have been.
               
               It's far less important than so many other things.  You adapt, you make do, you get by.

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   Merlin Fraserposted 13 years ago

   Yep; You're Screwed !!!
   
   The funniest bit of it all you're doing it to yourselves, however the downside of it is you're also spreading it around the world like the Clap !
   
   Let's start a list of all the US American inventions and ailments we could happily have done without, here's a couple to get you started:
   
   Ambulance chasing Lawyers.
   Political Correctness.

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   Joy56posted 13 years ago

   firstly i am in the south, so yes we were bailed out in the end......  Irish do not like the English even tho they say they do, it is still deep rooted...... 
   
   The IRA are busy in the North....  they have the same currency as you sterling.... we have euro.  This country and most countries seem to be in a bit of a mess.  So do you like London?????

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      kirstenblogposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      London is alright, we live in a nice area so it is a good place to live, even know a few of my neighbors
      There are areas that I would not like living in tho! Also it is really expensive and that is a definite turn off

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         Joy56posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         You should have moved to Manchester, shops are great there.......

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            kirstenblogposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I could always visit next time we have a car/ can afford a little trip
            
            Hubby has lived in London for many many years and I moved here instead of asking him to move to america. I do love teasing him tho, he says he would be scared to live somewhere with so many guns! When I took him to visit, a cop actually invited him to try to take his gun
            Hubby was like no way! Worried some other cop would not know he had been invited and would open fire!

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               Joy56posted 13 years agoin reply to this

               guns are a little scary that is true.... one of advantage of being in London then.

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                  kirstenblogposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Back when I lived in Seattle, I was on my way home just after dark. I was waiting for a direct bus from downtown to my area and these 2 drunks come buy arguing and verbally fighting. One guy pulls out a knife, no one runs. The other guy pulls out a gun. I only stopped getting the hell out of there to make sure they were not going the same way I was and I could see if the gun went off it would likely hit me! Got in a doorway at that point! Not long before the cops were there and they guys ran, it was not fun! I decided after that not to go through downtown after dark to get home, a longer way home with more buses seemed safer

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   Joy56posted 13 years ago

   Pcunix always wears that hat, and i always ask him to change it.... i never wear hats....

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      Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I will never change it.
      
      For one reason, nobody would know who Misha means to insult when he calls me Pclown.  for another, I wear this in memory of the Pcuni and their tragic extinction.
      
      More importantly, I like it

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         Joy56posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         so you really wear it, its not just a hat you happen to have on when the photographer was around.  It's cute.

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            Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            No, I don't really wear it:)
            
            I wore it to a party and a friend took that picture just before my wife made me take it off.
            
            It's just a logo for HubPages. Easily recognizable, memorable. It reflects my personality, too. Call it branding.
            
            I will wear it to HubCamp in the Spring, though

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   ahorsebackposted 13 years ago

   An America explained!
   
   Just thought I'd explain something to those asking, Doe's America know whats going on in the rest of the world. Yes! When you think you see an America , that is self centered in media , blame the damn media ! If you think that America is too focused on self? Ask your-self , From where are you observing? The purity and nuetrality of the BBC ? Right!  Ireland , England , Russia , ....It doesn't matter where you are observing America from , know this , Americans are some of the most enlightened , socio-conscious people in the world. We see all!....most of us!  and  we support all too. Being about the most "philanthropic"[right word?] people in the world, while at the same time roughly 30 % of the world economy , and economicly  subsidizing of everyone else's hunger , war , social problem , whatever .....from Asia to Zanzibar . Yes! my dear , there is a Santa , and it's called  America.

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      Joy56posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      That is the kind of attitude that really turns me of a Nation i would love to get to know better.... Well Done.

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      Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      You're right.  American feeds the world.
      But of late, the recipients of it are biting the hand that feeds them, including some of its own citizens.

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         Joy56posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         In what way do Americans feed the world.... i keep hearing that it's a ridiculous comment, of course they dont

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            Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Since you've already made up your mind that we don't, then no use me wasting time telling you.

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            habeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I think she means that the US is the largest producer of many raw food products.

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   Mishaposted 13 years ago

   *chorus*: "You fall, you fall!"

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      Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      lol Misha.
      
      But Americans have always gotten back up after a fall!
      This time, I hope, will be no different.  Except that maybe people will have a renewed appreciation for this great land.

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         Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I seriously hope so

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            Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Do you really?
            
            I'd be interested in hearing you expound upon your views about America, from the perspective of the info in your profile.
            
            Would you?

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               Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               It will be to much for this thread. In short I love people here and despise the government monster they managed to built. Once it collapses under its own weight as its Russian counterpart did 20 years ago, life hopefully will become much more enjoyable here.

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                  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I get it, you're a socialist.
                  And....you would like to see America fall and be rebuilt in that manner?
                  I'm dumb about Russian ways, etc., so would you kindly explain how you're a Russian citizen but living in America near D.C.?
                  
                  And while you're at it, maybe you can tell me how Medvedev manages to compose himself so statesman-like without his eyes getting shifty more often than they do?  (even I have to really focus to catch those eye movements).

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                     Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     LOL You missed my point completely Brenda, but never mind. Though you may want to re-read what I just wrote.
                     
                     As for me living here, trust me, there are legal ways to do it, and one of them is to have you wife working at the world bank
                     
                     Can't comment on Medvedev, I don't know him personally and I don't watch TV.

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                        Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        Okay you don't have to tell me anything.
                        I just like it when people are open and straightforward and just say how it is, like I generally do myself.
                        
                        I'd really love to hear you state where your interests and loyalties lie.  What's wrong with asking that?  If I lived in Russia but claimed American citizenship, wouldn't I be asked where my loyalties are?  Or would an average American even be allowed to go live in Russia?   Enlighten me please;  I'm really uninformed about Russian life including political ways.

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                           Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           I don't think I am hiding anything from you or anybody else Brenda. I state my opinions of these forums for three years already, and you had a chance to read about most of my worldview. If you still think I am a socialist, I can't really help it, and likely no amount of words I type in here will change your mind.
                           
                           Not sure what you mean by loyalties. If I understand you correctly, I don't have any - i.e. i don't feel obliged to support neither Russia nor USA in any way.
                           
                           And sure you can get a visa, come live to Russia, and then apply for a residence permit, Soviet iron curtain times are long gone and nobody really cares.

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                              Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              By loyalties I mean patriotism, a liking and adherence to the specific foundation of government and culture of a Nation, and the intention to abide by it and protect its sovreignty and the rights of its people.
                              
                              So......if for instance Russia attacked America, what army would you serve in?  (assuming you are capable physically, etc., of serving and were called to do so).
                              
                              Or if America attacked Russia, either way.
                              
                              Just a scenario.  Come on, admit it, almost anybody has loyalties to some Nation.
                              
                              
                              And that's cool that I could go to Russia if I wanted to.  But I'd rather stay here and actually fight for the Nation I believe in.   Maybe you could get your government to persuade Obama to go there and live?  That would be awesome!  Then he could perpetuate his socialist ideas upon willing victims; make his job so much easier! 
                              
                              I want to insert here that I have nothing against you, Misha!
                              I just am an American who believes in strong patriotism and honoring the society and foundation that this Nation is built upon.  And seeing it crumble at the hands of a usurper like Obama isn't something I'm gonna sit back and remain silent about.

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                              Petra Vlahposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              Misha,
                              I remember your great hub about "do you think your capitalism beats my socialism" (not exactly sure about the name of the hub, but that was the idea) and the way you explained everything about the two different systems should bring some light to the ones who want to open their eyes and mind
                              Hard to believe that people can only think in white and black...

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                                 uncorrectedvisionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 Thank you for recommending Misha's post on capitalism, socialism, and "isms" in general.  It comes to a very interesting conclusion that recommends that we should be looking for a clear philosophy for understanding political economy.

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                              ahorsebackposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              Misha , It interests me only slightly that you are Russian living in the US , living off your wife who works for the world bank ?  And  don't care politiclly about  your homeland or this one!  Got  and interest in money?

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                                 habeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 Living off his wife? Misha makes a bunch of $ on HP alone, not counting his other endeavors.

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                  rebekahELLEposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  have you considered writing a hub on your perspective? I'm sure many would like to read it and hear your conclusions.
                  perhaps, A Russian Perspective On Living In America: The Way I See It.

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                     Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     IDK Rebekah, may be later. I am certainly not in the mood now

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                        rebekahELLEposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        I get that. I have certain subjects still waiting in the queue.   
                        you would certainly have an audience, not just here on HP.
                        
                        enjoy the holiday season with your family.

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                           Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           Thanks Rebekah, same to you

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   Evan G Rogersposted 13 years ago

   I deny the premise:
   
   The fact that america is divided is a fantastic thing. Through differentiation, we shall innovate and create systems that help us more and make us stronger.
   
   What is good for me, is NOT necessarily good for you. My fellow grad student looks sharp in a pink tie. I don't -- lordy lordy, I don't. Through this division he demands a pink tie and I don't. In-so-doing, he gets what he wants, and I get mine. If we had to be united, then we would both be forced to wear the same tie.
   
   Unity brings war, division brings peace.
   
   The lessons of Economics make this clear.

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      Petra Vlahposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      "Unity brings war, Division brings peace", Evan? That is an interesting perspective to say the least; care to explain?

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         JASON NICHOLSposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Actually Petra, I agree with Evan because he is right!  I am giving a example of what he said below.
         
         Unity brings war: When we are friends with anybody, Mostly all the time we fight.
         
         Division brings peace : If you do all work at once you will get tired and crazy! But if you divide the work and do it, It will be very easy to do work.
         
         You decide Petra if you want to belive this theroy or not.

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         uncorrectedvisionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         There can be no peace when the artificial collective seeks to subsume the natural individual.  If the individual is not important name some one who isn't one.  The United States is unique in its founding and original philosophy.  We have long since abandoned our culture understanding of natural law.  We have abandoned our roots pretending that they were flawed beyond redemption.  This division will not be settled in blood and sacrifice like the Civil War.  This division will require one of two things - actual division or a national re-assertion of the fundamental understanding of human nature and the relationship of each individual, one to the other and to our government. 
         
         I don't believe it is possible to ever unify and I personally recommend dissolving the United States so that those who believe in liberalism, collectivism can --- wait it has already happened --- California is an excellent example liberalism run amok.  I still recommend dissolution and a renegotiation of the original Federal contract allowing states to associate with each other in a combination other than the one that exists today.  I do not want Indiana's destiny to be linked to Illinois, Michigan, New York, Massachusetts or California's any more.

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         Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         In order to be united under one banner, someone has to decide what that banner is. Then the people who don't want to under that banner make their own banner, which further alienates.
         
         The groups then fight to be "united".
         
         If we just agree to be different and allow capitalism to work its "differences are ok" magic, then we stay different but interconnected in a peaceful fashion.

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    habeeposted 13 years ago

    Evan, I think you're confusing individuality with divisiveness. We can each be unique and still be united in common causes.

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       JASON NICHOLSposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Ok, if you think this way Habee is right about "Evan, I think you're confusing individuality with divisiveness. We can each be unique and still be united in common causes."

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       Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       If "united we stand, but together we fall"...
       
       then who's vision of "united" do we succumb to?
       
       ... and thus you are refuted.

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          habeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Common causes - things the majority of us believe in and support, like more say-so in our government, ending corruption in DC, more jobs, etc. Who, other than politicians, doesn't want these things?

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    ahorsebackposted 13 years ago

    To Misha , Brenda , Petra , The thing about America is this;  and I know it's hard for some to grasp. Our country isn't anywhere near ,"fallen' , Misha . America was born of division , designed of and by, loud individual voices, cursed by the influxes of unwanted peoples, and baptised by fires from outside it's borders. America actually is! Flux !. It morph's bends and twists as an oak tree grows! A bark made of human rights , a root system of freedoms, and brances of individuality and voice. Fallen , Russia fell, England fell , Ireland changes nothing from within, and Canada is a grouper pilot fish , following the shark. Feeding greedily from beneath the jaws of the Leader!  America also wisens steadily from within . Ok ,here goes , I can't help it! If you don't like America and can't wait for it to fail . Go back and pick up the pieces of your forgotten homelands .

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       uncorrectedvisionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Wow, hostile much?  The US will only collapse if we refuse to reassert the value of the individual over the collective.  That has been the strength of America for its first 150 years. People have come to the US from all world in order to work out their personal destiny.  The US is still a desirable place for people the difference today is the illegality of some immigration.

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          ahorsebackposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Actually , hostile never.  and some illegal immigration is illegal.

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    Uninvited Writerposted 13 years ago

    Misha is on a 7-day ban if you are expecting a reply from him. He was banned for something very innocuous on another thread.

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       Joy56posted 13 years agoin reply to this

       today what does inocuous mean

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    rebekahELLEposted 13 years ago

    very very true.
    I do think of this often. We all live in our unique corner of the country and within blocks, there can be various different cultures living behind those doors. Why do so many forget we are a melting pot? I've been lucky enough to travel the entire country excluding Hawaii and Alaska, and it's diversity is one of it's greatest treasures. In the classroom, there are many children from various countries, India, Pakistan, Czech, Mexico, UK, China etc, Europe. Our grocery stores are full of different ethnic foods. I think it's fascinating. I guess everyone sees what they want to see.. and hears what they want to hear.
    I love living here and yes, I have been out of the country. We are extremely fortunate despite our problems.

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