Just wanted to point this out to everyone:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 03686.html
It's official! The US now embraces torture!
it always has used it, not a new thing at all.
Really? I mean, REALLY!!??
This is NEWS? It's been known for centuries. War is real. Threat is real. Torture is real. It's always been real and continues. Documenting it in this way won't make it go away. Prosecution won't make it go away. Prove otherwise.
Yes, if it isn't by choice of the individual.
Well, a prisoner is never held by his own choice so I guess anything and everything is torture now. By this reasoning, the circulation of blood in your body is torture, since it is an involuntary function.
Choice does not equal voluntary/involuntary.
But Mr. Manning's detainment is still solitary confinement, and that means that it's torture.
The reference says there are no prisoners in the cells adjacent to his. He is not in solitary confinement.
Yes he is in solitary, prisoners do not sleep naked in cells with other prisoners; that's common sense, my man.
Yeah, his rationale is faulty.
Your reasoning is sound.
A prisoner who doesn't get to make choices is being tortured.
Awwwww, po widdle pwizno.
And? An article in the New Yorker citing "anecdotal evidence" is proof of what now? No one ever said it was 'fun,' but it is not "torture." If you want to stretch definitions to such ridiculous lengths then why not say that any kind of confinement is torture? Depriving someone of their liberty is torture, repeated questioning is torture, paying a fine is torture, not eating your favorite food everyday is torture, not driving a new car is torture, watching 'The View' is torture (ok, that one really is). Would you prefer your hero be kept in a general population setting? Can you guess what would happen to the likes of him in such a setting? Kinda defeats the purpose of a suicide watch.
go ahead and do it for the next 30 days in a prison cell with guards watching you day in and day out.
AAAAAaaaa!!!!! you didn't ask me for permission first before you posted that! TORTURE!!!!!!!! AAA!!!!!AAAA!!!!!!!!!
America has always endorsed torture. Torturing an American citizen with in the borders of our coutry is what the country endorses now. What crime could possibly justify toreturing an American citizen by our government? Telling the truth about our government to the majority of freedom loving Americans who support and fight for the right to be lied to on an hourly basis, God Bless The Faux News Network. Our government kills 1,000,000 innocent people and Americans get pissed because someone told them about it. God Bless American and please pray that the entire country removes it's head from the ass it so loves to kiss.
Here again we see that the discussion quickly divorces from the actual topic and becomes nothing but a platform for people to vent their subjective political bias and prejudices. Ah well.
If Manning is really suicidal, then the suicide prevention measures are for his own good and justified. If this is being done as a type of punishment, then it's obviously improper.
I don't see that his atty. has made the case for the latter. Sleeping under a blanket w/o shorts is hardly a gulag punishment. If he should succeed at suicide, the facility would be blamed, as they should be.
This is quite a far cry from "It's official! The US now embraces torture!" which is an exaggeration at best.
"the facility would be blamed, as they should be."
Why should the facility be blamed for the willful act of an adult?
Any incarceration facility is responsible for taking all steps possible to protect it's population -- this includes suicide prevention. Quantico did the right thing by taking these precautions if Manning is considered at risk by statements he made. It's in the WashPost story.
This is about proper confinement procedures, not politics.
Thats exactly what they are doing.
But that is not what you said they should be held accountable for.
"If he should succeed at suicide, the facility would be blamed, as they should be."
Why should the facility be held responsible for the willful act of an adult?
Please let me know when you have an answer.
OK, once more.
If Quantico or any other facility suspects that a prisoner is a suicide risk, they are required to take steps to prevent it.
Quantico is taking these steps so the only question is their motivation -- do they have reason to believe that he's a suicide risk?
Seemingly, they do.
Also, you don't think that they're going risk the nightmare of letting a high-profile prisoner end up dead, do you?
Based on the article, the Quantico facility seems to be doing what they should be.
"OK, once more."
Yes I know.
You said the facility should be held responsible for a successful suicide.
Once more, why should the facility be held responsible?
All the steps have been taken to prevent this from happening so what would they be responsible for?
Incredible. You never heard of "Suicide Watch?"
Mr. Manning's treatment is based on standard incarceration procedures, not someone's personal ideology. Either our rights and Manning's are to be protected or not.
In the U.S., you don't have different rules for people you don't like.
Are you unable to answer the question?
"If he should succeed at suicide, the facility would be blamed, as they should be."
Even with the precautions in place if he were to succeed at suicide you would blame the facility?
Let's stop churning the thread, shall we.
Reread my posts if you're still confused. It's really not that complicated.
You wont answer the question I guess.
The facility is only required to take reasonable precautions.
This whole thread is about torture which is UNREASONABLE.
No prison is suicide proof and it should never be expected to be.
Suicide is the willful act of a person not something they can't control.
The thread is about personal opinions -- the referenced article, which I addressed is about the question of whether Manning is being protected or punished by the Quantico personnel.
His lawyer's assertions haven't been validated so injury prevention procedures should be and are, in place. If Q did NOT do this, they would be at fault for the results but they are, at worst, guilty of being overcautious with their high-profile prisoner.
A State Dept. inquiry has been ordered to determine whether Manning is being deprived of his rights.
I suggest you endure months of solitary confinement, and then you bring your smart ass comments on back here, and let us know then what you think.
Maybe a certain someone should have thought of that before...
Before what? Exposing murder, etc? Or are you just "down with that?"
Reading the article it would appear that he has not gone to trial yet and is therefore according to the rules, still innocent.
So they are obligated to try and keep him alive until his trial, right?
Could you shed some light on your point of view here? It's important, it's an important issue, torturing those who expose corruption is very significant to us all. Thanks.
Then I suggest that you research the effects of solitary confinement. Humans are social creatures, this is common knowledge.
Solitary confinement is NOT torture. It is often used for the sake of the prisoner's own safety, or that of other prisoners.
If your definition of 'torture' is completely plastic, how can you hope to reasonably discuss anything relating to it?
Lalalalalalala it's not torture lalalalalalala I reject your reality and assert my own lalalalalalalalala.
You haven't addressed anything anyone has raised. People have said the guy is being tortured. They've shown examples of how he's being tortured. They've provided background about why what's being done to him is torture.
And the best the opposing side has been able to do is basically say,
"Is not, is not, no backsies, and besides, he deserves it"
If you think extended solitary confinement isn't torture, how about you explain why you think so, and perhaps provide a link to some studies that show that it's not torture?
Well, how do I put this? Erm, how about YES!
Anyway, there is no suggestion that he is likely to commit suicide.
He can still be held without his consent and is still subject to the institutions rules.
Is that what you suggest?
Nah, I won't commit a crime to find out if being locked up is not fun.
I'm smart enough to figure all that out on my own.
Sorry you're not.
I'm not what? Evil enough to conceal lies and murder? Concealment of what Manning exposed WOULD BE a crime, idiot.
I don't think personal insults like that are necessary or appropriate. Can't have a discussion that way.
Did you see the comments that the person with the stupid avatar made? I'd say not calling that person out on his or her character would be irresponsible.
There again, "the stupid avatar" is just unnecessary. We are not children here. Let's be reasonably civil.
He's a little unhappy.
Probably isn't getting enough bran.
Short Story: I see why you join hubpages, to promote civility. You are the civil sheriff, that's positive. In reply to your inquiry last night, no, just suits.
What's wrong with suits? Are you opposed to all suits or just certain types?
Suits are o'k, they are for dress to impress. I'm opposed to fraudlent people in suits. Don't concern yourself, I notice you ask a lot a questions of liberals is it because you are ignorant and really want an answer or are you trying to be smart.
Ignorant according to webster means (lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified). I should have used another word, ignorant can be misunderstood. I'm ignorant of the word circular, what's the meaning of the word circular?
"I'm not what?"
Apparently you can't figure out being locked up isn't a vacation.
Take a deep breath and calm down little feller.
Oh, but I do know; apparently you do not. In Texas, Cameron Todd Willingham was executed as an innocent man; so perhaps your "I'll just not commit a crime" comment was asinine and insulting to everyone behind bars everywhere in the world. Had you thought of that?
Then you should also avoid being accused of committing a crime. Not everyone locked up has been convicted, and not everyone charged with a crime is guilty. If DNA testing has taught us anything it's that even a shockingly high number of people convicted and executed for committing a crime were not guilty.
I have managed to avoid that for fifty years.
By the way, I never said he was guilty or convicted of anything.
So I guess the mistreatment is just for the pleasure of the guards?
If he wanted to sleep in his footy pajamas he shouldn't have made comments indicating he was a danger to himself.
The guards are insuring his safety while he is legally incarcerated..
Oh dang! Who's Obama torturing now? I didn't know there was a speech scheduled. My best advice is if you can't stand the pain just shut your ears.
Oh and don't fly, take a bus. This administration isn't torturing your privates at the bus station yet.
Innocent until found guilty seems to have lost all meaning.
Get the punishment in before the trial- just in case.
And if he were placed in a general population and beaten or killed? If he were to off himself in his cell? What would you say then? Is "punishment" now to mean anything and everything the way some want to imagine "torture" as meaning?
So? Isn't the possibility of any remand prisoner being beaten or killed in the general prison population equal?
I would think that there are a lot more serious accusations that don't get this treatment.
NO, it is not equal. That's why some prisoners are kept in solitary and most are not. You need to go have a talk with someone who has worked in prisons and have them explain it to you in detail.
Urm, I would think that the risk would be far greater with sex offenders, killers, and a whole host of crimes than giving away a few secrets which is far more likely to gain the approval of the general prison population than its condemnation!
Skinners don't last long, but neither would a traitor like him.
Sure, inmates always respect that principle...
Maybe they don't but the prison system should and it should with dignity and resource, not contempt and disregard.
For profit prisons in the U.S. is a cancerous entity in our society represented by such corporations like the GEO group and the Vanguard group. You can bet everything that you own that Mr. Manning would be a hero to the prisoners of any prison.
"President Obama today signed an executive order [that was Mar 07/11] that will formalize the indefinite extralegal detention of terror suspects without charges as a permanent aspect of American life, while announcing that he intends to use this on detainees “who continue to pose a significant threat to national security” but against whom there is insufficient evidence to actually charge them with any crime."
The Post article cited a blog which speculated that the guards would probably mistreat him moreso now that he complained. Sourced from a blog, mind you, not from any legit news source. That makes it an editorial and not an unbiased piece of reporting.
Quantico is different from other prisons in that it is a military detention facility.
Manning is a military EM, in a military prison, accused of using his military job to divulge classified information.
Should he have more privileges than military personnel who haven't been accused of a crime? I can't recall my superiors ever asking me if my apparel and accommodations suited me.
Evidence indicates that he is being treated fairly.
They are trying to break him so that he will confess and implicate wikilieaks
Julian Assange, so that they can hold Assange without trial indefinitely.
How long will he have to sleep in the nude before he breaks?
The case against Manning is pretty strong. Assange has bigger problems right now than facing the music in the U.S. He's probably slick enough to avoid being extradited anyway, so Manning will be left to take the rap. Assange can keep his skivvies on when he sleeps, for now.
"How long will he have to sleep in the nude before he breaks?" What's the temperature I wonder? From what I have heard he is in solitary confinement and has to sit upright on his bed all day, and and every-time the guard says 'Are you all right", he has to say "I am alright". But I may be wrong. It is not like pulling finger nails. But as a test, maybe you could try it for a day or maybe even 7 months.
...and did you ever consider that there may very well be agents and their contacts in other countries that were or are being tortured to death because of what Manning/Assange did?
"same rights as any other person." No he don't that's old hat. Yesterday's news: Obama Approves Indefinite Detention Without Trial". Same rights is just tradition anymore.
There seems to be a lot of license being taken with, and in, the article. Read it with an eye toward whether it is based on unbiased sources or unsubstantiated conjecture. I found the latter.
1. Manning is in Maximum Security, not solitary. He's not alone in a dank cell. Don't confuse him with Papillon.
2. He isn't tortured, unless you consider sleeping commando to be torture. He has a "shred proof" blanket.
3. His undees were taken away after he told a guard he could use them to commit suicide if he wanted to.
He may or may not be proven guilty and sent to Leavenworth, but life in the Brig isn't nearly as bad as he's making it out to be. This is posturing for more privileges.
Well, as they say in Stir, "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."
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