This is a terrible incident on both sides. I do not know what to say. Do You?
Edit: title of thread is title of video
I haven't read anything about this in a few days but if my memory serves the man had machine guns. One strategy in law enforcement is to have an advantage when trying to aprehend criminals so you take extra men extra guns etc. So to fight a man with machine guns they took three men with machine guns. The point of this strategy is to not come home with a dead co-worker. It's not as if one man stood there and pulled a trigger 60 times. That would be ridiculous. It was three men, armed with automatic weapons who probably tapped the trigger once, each releasing a burst of bullets. I'm all for constitutional freedoms concerning firearms but you have zero freedom when it comes to keeping a mass murder weapon in a civilized society. I'm glad the guy is dead. Another stockpile of machine guns off the street
It was the wrong house!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But as long as YOUUUUUUU are happy!!!!!!!!
Still... 60times? That is inexcusable.
While in the Marines, I trained with the Cochise County (an hour south of Tuscon in Arizona) SWAT team...
The police had a two storey house that they use to practice making entry and room clearing. They also have a "Logan's Alley", where (with speed and intensity) officers quickly move down a "street" while large pictures of armed and unarmed people pop up from behind walls and windows... These teams are supposed to be ensuring that they can rapidly ascertain a true threat....
We, the Marines would assist the SWAT team by portraying either criminal suspects, innocent bystanders, hostages, or armed/unarmed occupants while the SWAT team (over and over again) worked on their tactics, speed, and execution. We would be placed inside the house according to a script written up by the department....
In each case, when there were unarmed occupants of the house, these officers shot down unarmed people...they routinely shot first and said "oops" later.
I did not once see them train to stand off outside and not make entry for fear of "other assailants inside the house"... Between misdirection, percussion/smoke grenades, and overwhelming man and firepower, these guys looked forward to going in...typically guns and grenades blazing...
When I watched this video I saw the same lamebrained "shoot shoot shoot" mentality...
Those Tuscon boys probably train with Cochise County....and it is evident that both departments need to be held to task...
Semper Fi, my fallen comrade... It's too bad our uniformed officers can't do a better job.... What a way to end the Memorial Day holiday..
By the way, an AR-15 is not a machine gun....and this man legally owned the weapon.
If someone came barging into my house I would grab my rifle, too.
On this fateful day of 5 May, 2011, Jose had worked the graveyard shift at Asarco Mission mine. When everything went mad, about 9:30 a.m., this sleeping father only had time to hide his family. Based on what his wife told him, he only knew at first that he had 'men with guns' in his house. Thank God his wife and little son survived.
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/may2 … ine-tk.php
I don't think the "Mason" poster has any clue about what he/she is saying....
The team kicked down a door to find a man crouching in the hallway with a rifle pointed at them. I can see them firing in that situation. Whether they should have been kicking down the door in the first place seems more of an open question.
It is a double sided coin.
The man awoke to the sounds of some one scurrying at his front door, finally pounding it in as he held out his firearm to protect his family from intruders.
I could see him firing in that situation, but, he didn't.
So the question is who gave the wrong orders to kick down an innocent man's door. Who applied for the search warrant and with what probable cause?
I would. Wouldn't you? I don't know who that is in my house...I am not asking who you are. You aren't supposed to be here. Unless they address themselves as cops, they are people trying to break in no matter what they are dressed as. Luckily, I don't have a gun I suppose. So right now...my cocker spaniel or my new puppy might have to protect the house...with their stuffed elephant chew toy maybe or their diligent sleep on the couch all day kung fu style.
My home has been raided by police several times......beyond pounding on doors, they are required to identify themselves as police officers...even when outside before making entry...
Was this done? Did they yell out "Police Officers!".....or did they just go in?
Whether through my military service or through the countless experiences I have had with LAPD/LA County Sheriffs (my brother is a former felon), I have seen police behaving badly too many times.... They can be arrogantly reckless...
Saw the first reports. Generally, the military doesn't let you keep your gear. Bullet-proof vest? Automatic rifle? Sure, the hat could have been purchased anywhere in the area. Tragic. YES. I have never been in that situation, but have seen cops acting badly. Reserving judgement. Sweeping it under the rug doesn't qualify.
I have seen "no knock" search warrants but immediately upon opening the door the Police should have identified themselves.
Thankfully, it appears that the Veteran recognized the fact that they were Police hence the no shots fired back.
Sad to see all those freedoms, that you only imagine that you have, deafened by gunfire yet again.
Sad to see more evidence of the degeneration of a society in the process of sliding back, apparently somewhere between prohibition and McCarthyism.
Sad to see people so numbed and dumbed down by violence that some condone such illegal actions.
An AR-15 is not an automatic weapon, and it is legal. The military does not use them. They may look like M16A2 rifles, but they are not....
Anyone can buy a bullet-proof vest...at least in California, as long as they are not felons on parole.
My brother, for example, did auto repossession work....and he (along with nearly everyone else in the repo trade) wore a vest... After the first gun gets pulled on you, protecting one's life becomes important...
Owning body armor is not a crime..nor does its possession or use make the owner/wearer a criminal...
Am I wrong, Druid?
On the no-knock warrant...I understand, I have had it happen at my residence while I was here....but they still have to identify themselves as police officers....and they always have (in my experiences)...very loudly...
As for what happened in Tuscon.....I don't know..
I think there are a bunch of guys who are looking to fire their weapons out there....and this is coupled with an "us" vs. "them" perspective that many officers, and I would argue the law enforcement culture itself, to place themselves in a status above those they are supposed to be protecting...
Of course, as seen with the illegal and unethical use of California Highway Patrol officers by former Governor Schwartzennegar, they become institutionally blinded to their own hypocrisy...
The Rodney King beating trial, the defendants moved their court and jury pools away from the San Fernando Valley...where the crime was committed, and where these officers work..to the Simi Valley, where the police community has created an enclave..
And the offices wre aquitted......and retaliatory riots ensued...
The word gerrymandering is continuously running through my mind... Politically, socially, and economically segmentation continues to be an active process. The media works fervently to twist our heads around and around while the unseen lines that determine our representation, and even worth, at least in dollar value are continuously being manipulated....to the benefit of very few...
And while Los Angeles rocked and burned for three days..(let us not forget the worldwide riots that the "not guilty" verdicts caused...it was not only an "LA" thing)...the message was only superficially served.... The officers did receive stern punishments....
But, like the trigger that started the Watts Riots, Rodney King himself and those specific officers themselves were the tip of the iceberg....
The lessons have not been learned...
Another Marine was killed by police officers a year or so back...and it was caught on video.. He had been pulled over, and the officers were standing over him as he was pinned on the ground spread eagle...
And he was shot point blank while talking with the officers...explaining to them that he was a Marine who had just returned from a tour overseas... It is very hard to find a link these days...I'll have to check the archives for my citation..
To end this long post, I want to share this gem from Hollywood, Florida..
While she may have been drunk (for I don't know the outcome of that case), had the officer not made the wrong move, she would have not been caught (at least not at that point by that officer).. To take advantage of her potential mistake, they (the whole group, no questions asked or doubts raised) works to compound the worman's detrimental situation...to "hang her out to dry" as the officer puts it....just "to protect their own"....
Loyalty over legal and ethical reality.......
I don't care how many machine guns he had. 60 bullets shot into 1 human body is excessive and a crime in itself. This is my personal feelings.
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