If your wondering where the American Left and Progressive Right have siphoneed our wealth, Technology and power to... just look here.
-"This week we asked analyst Gillem Tulloch what has happened in the past six months."
“China built more of them,” Tulloch said. “China consumes more steel, iron ore and cement per capita than any industrial nation in history. It’s all going to railways that will never make money, roads that no one drives on and cities that no one lives in.”-
“It’s like walking into a forest of skyscrapers, but they’re all empty,” he said of Chenggong.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/reveale … st-cities/
The original Nation-Builing scheme of the American Leftists and their Progressive buddies. And soon they, China, will own this nation, if we do not stop this treason and selling out of our great country.
And you wonder why China's stats make them look so good. More deception brought to you by the Commies and Leftists of this world.
So next time someone spouts about how wonderful China is, remeber the stats they are drawing that understanding from. Talk about a people wasting the worlds resources... where are the green freaks about this?
"where are the green freaks about this?"
Du~~ude... Like, China is SOOOO progressive, man! Killer. They, like, y'know, are Communist, and don't have, like, capitalist pigs trying to rape the land, n'stuff, right? So, like, we gotta be more like them, man!
No, you're absolutely right, this has government written all over it.
Green freaks scream about everything we do, Evan... where are they about this? And I didn't say where are the green freaks from China on this... green freaks and their global movement,... where are they? No-where to be found.
And I know China is Communist...I never said they weren't. That is the speel I get from leftists here who claim the are a Democratic Republc, "code word" right up there with People's Democracy" adn State Capitalism". So... I don't get that remark.
And my point is all the wasted resources. Whre are the green freaks about it? I will say it again nowhere.
I was agreeing with you. I was trying to sound like a hippy douche.
Maybe you should do a little research before blindly condemning "green freaks" for hypocrisy. China gets tons of criticism from environmentalists.
Additionally, my understanding is that though China's native green movement has been suppressed by the government for many years, the environmental degradation in many regions of the country has gotten to the point where they've now reached a critical mass in many regions and are no longer quite so easily ignored (or worse) by Beijing.
Indeed, but you must admit that building empty cities should be something that environmentalists would be against.
China's green movement has been suppressed .. ..I don't think so ! . some things are supressed her without any doubt, but any green movement is not on the list in any way that I can see.
It is sickeningly hypocritical that the 'developed' world first gets rid of all its 'dirty' industries to 'developing' countries to then take the processed product from them - then screams like a stuck pig about the pollution that goes with it ! The ultimate example is Bhopal where the US firm of Union Carbide not only were an extremely dirty operator, they were also criminally negligent. In the tone of this thread this would read that America polluted this large area of India, and on top of paying slave labour wages they killed, maimed and poisoned hundreds of people all around their disgusting plant - and of course, as they are a poor country America never paid them more than a trivial sum in compensation for this atrocity.
China during its early development stage had all these polluting industries that the west did not want in ITS back yard, and close the the cities as the infrastructure was not developed enough to put it elsewhere. You need revenue first as the simplest business fool will already know.
Some 20 odd years ago the government ordered all these industries out into suitable industrial parks, consequently the parks, infrastructure roads, rail links, etc etc were built - the supposed ghost cities of the deliberately fallacious source of the OP, ready to relocate already operating businesses. This process is well over half completed with most cities now in the process of cleaning up their lakes and rivers, polluted ground areas etc and building over them.
China, like most 'developing' countries, has a highly advanced recycling system that is nothing to do with ridiculous government initiatives of different coloured residential rubbish bags, and petty fines for people putting the wrong thing in the wrong bag - and with rubbish police probing your garbage at night to catch you crimials. Here, every piece of garbage is sifted for every re-useable and re-cycleable thing from the metal in electrical wire to the paper and plastic bottles to the scrap paper.
The difference in the economic model in this regard is that the recycled stuff is worth more than enough to make it worth while getting it. 10 x 330ml plastic coke bottles are worth enough cash to buy the same breakfast that I eat most days. If I was inclined to go into competition with the rubbish pickers I could probably pick that many bottles on my 10 minute walk to get the breakfast that they would then pay for.
You're wasting your time, Recommend. These guys know more about where you live than you do! It sounds like you are witnessing a country develop rapidly by learning from the mistakes of other, once envied, nations. It sounds fascinating!
Why would it be surprising that someone who lives in news censored society where the internet, press and all media are under control of the State - doesn't know about the warts that the gov't wants to hide?
The denial of the ghost cities is a good example. This has been covered in all western media and for anyone who lives where news isn't censored, this is old news.
http://www.businessinsider.com/china-gh … ary-2011-3
Again, this is not new news, except to those with a controlled media. Either Rec doesn't know or won't admit what the rest of the world knows about this.
Wow! I'm glad our government never hides anything! And our press is always on top of things too!
What brand of sneakers do you wear? I know you wouldn't buy anything from China!
"Wow! I'm glad our government never hides anything! And our press is always on top of things too! lol
What brand of sneakers do you wear? I know you wouldn't buy anything from China!"
New Balance, made in Massachusetts.
I used to like Nike's but ever since the child labor scandal, I won't buy them and IMO neither should anyone who cares about social justice. But if cheap is all you care about, tell the little slackers on the Nike line to ramp it up.
Government & press - if you make it your business to know what each is up to, it won't matter what they do or don't try to hide. People in China don't have that option...yet.
I actually have some sympathy for you in this. Before I came to China I thought I understood what it was all about and held similar if far more moderate views to yourself. Coming here is the biggest eye-opener ever, you find out almost immediately that pretty much everything you thought you knew is wrong either through direct lies from western media, or by faked up video and photo. This does not mean that everything is untrue, it means that the real issues that should rightly be addressed are smothered with all the bullsh!t.
I also got a new perspective on where I came from, to realise that much of what we believe has been engineered by the media and is generally a half truth with a lie tucked away inside.
I am a pacifist, deeply concerned about human rights and freedoms. Coming here to see and hear for myself has changed my perceptions and understanding about all these things, I have come to realise that even the way we use the terms are instilled with the lies of our politics (and theirs) - and I find it hard to see much difference in the end result of the application in both systems.
You only see what you want to see. Sounds like you've been brainwashed in the same fashion you accuse others of being brainwashed by Fox news.
For a pacifist, you are extremely arrogant and intolerant.
I was just talking to a relative living in China and they indicated that there is a lot of unrest. The poor are tired of being poor and tired of those in charge getting rich off the backs of the poor, especially those working in factories.
In one instance, over a thousand protesters started rioting in frustration with low wages. That was reported in the local news, not any American source.
There are some things that are going well, others not so much. Just like anywhere else, so get off your high horse.
Yeah, just like work went from the US to Mexico then to China, it is now headed to SE Asia, Vietnam and Indonesia. What goes up always comes down. It's great going on the upside, not so much going down. Get ready. It's on its way.
I am definately arrogant, I have always been that way since I started school at five, I clearly remember being in the middle of reading Westward ho! and wondering why all these other kids were so stupid that they needed to be taught A for apple etc ! I blame my older sister for teaching me to read as I learnt to talk.
I also remember my frustration at the stupidity of my teachers who bumped me up three whole years as they thought I was a genius but overlooking the fact that I knew no arithmatic to speak of and so missed the whole foundation in that subject and so trashing the rest of my schooling. So by the age of six I appeared to be surrounded by stupid people who were supposedly intelligent.
I am not brainwashed by anything. I do not believe that China is perfect in any way, there are many many issues that can be criticised. My whole objection and 'high-handed' attitude comes from hypocritical censure of things Chinese from people whose country does far worse in the area of criticism!
To take your news item about the recent workers protest, it was reported here and so can be considered valid - but the criticism is less than honest from the USA where labour laws are being trampled and you have your own protests, occasional riots and frequent outbursts of what appears to mass hooliganism. The protest here in China is seen here as partly justified and the response will likely be official condemnation but tempered with some remedial action - and I arrive at this deduction BECAUSE it was 'allowed' to be widely reported here.
So - in essence I agree with you about most of this and hope you are able to understand that as apparently the ONLY hubber writing in these forums who actually lives here - I am the butt of most of the China criticism both real and manufactured. I try to do the best I can
For what it's worth, I appreciate your candor, RCMD!
Shame we can't beam everyone up and drop them here to see for themselves - it might save me a million words !
Nor would I.
I adopted a boy from there in the 1990's he is a man now.
I saw the damage done to his mother by Mao's regime, but as he was leaving China it was going through great change already.
I was editing the Aust/China Business Herald at the time and a close friend was working and living in Chinatown traveling to China many times a year.
One of the editions of the Herald had the list of new laws and taxes to be introduced. Log books and tax concessions, commercial laws to enable the new growth based mostly on Canadian and Australian models it was up to date and very similar to the established capitalist countries such as America.
China decided to go the Western way a long time ago.
Getting that through the government to local level? That looks long term.
My mistake. I suppose you didn't learn anything new from the wikileaks incident. You tried to tell everyone the WMDs didn't exist and all about Abu Garib too, right?
Do you think we now know everything slimy and underhanded our government does? I don't think so. Have you spent much time in China?
It's just hard for me to believe you know more about China than Recommend does. I've always found him to be fair and honest in his opinions on any subject here.
Honestly I had no idea that this taking place. But what do you suppose us green freaks do? Not even with all our scientific proof have we gotten the full support of the full right wing conservative party members here in the USA. I mean, there is no combating such blanat stupidity. But if you have a plan.... please do tell.
My plan is you could fly over there and protest all over the cities that are full. Or the empty ones? Or you could demand to know from our Govt just what is going on over there? Obama likes you all, don't he? He would do that much for you, wouldn't he?
The whale war guys might give you all a lift?
Gee I don't know...
I am sorry in advance for how that sounds, IE. But I mean some action would show that your orgs. are serious about the cause you claim to love and support so much. And alot of the science you mention... well... lets just say it isn't so scientific as far as we can see. Not to mention all the frufd we know about from theb e-mails released. So....
Are you willing to pay for my expenses? Until then your point is mute.
George Soros will pay... won't he? and you all seem to have no problem getting anywhere else to protest. So that is a lame excuse. IE.
Why not you? Why does somebody else have to foot the bill. You clearly think that us environment freaks should just because we recycle. You know, trash collects in your backyard the same as it does in mine. I just choose to recycle it. You choose to clearly blame us for your shortsideness. That's not my problem. You think going green groups should be doing something about China? Then buck up and shut up like we are and donate your time and money. It starts with Y O U! The earth is not just us recycle gurus problem. It is all of ours.
Intimat, the real solution - no tongue in cheek - is to demand that governments stop spending money.
These ghost cities are empty because they were built with government incentives.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic … 36,00.html
"For years, regional governments across China have been building massive real estate projects that have attracted both private and corporate buyers. As prices have continued to rise (residential values in 70 large and medium-size cities across China soared in 2009, according to real estate consultancy Colliers International), more investors have become speculators, buying brand-new properties with the sole intention of flipping them" (Powell).
This doesn't sound like "commie" "leftism" to me..... It sounds like profiteers abound...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_estat … c_of_China
I see many public companies there, as opposed to state-run...
What role do "Western Capitalists" play in what is going on over there?
With this said, it is because of the building in China that the price for a community college in the San Fernando Valley to build a simply parking complex is astronomical...and the amount of Chinese demand causes these American projects to fall behind...further increasing the cost of the projects...
Of course...the contractors aren't complaining... The prices are simply passed on to the students....
In return, more and more money from district budgets goes to make payments on the loans taken for the overpriced and delayed projects and then cut programs for students.... There are community colleges that won't have summer school this year (cutting students as well as employees off from the traditional schedule) while more and more building continues....
No, it is government. Only a government could misallocate resources this profoundly.
It's impossible to believe that 30+ building firms, numerous individually competing banks, and countless investors acting independently trying to secure a profit could POSSIBLY think that it would a good idea to build (what appear to be) hundreds of skyscrapers in areas with no population.
There is just NO way that this can be chalked up to a free market, it has government's "bastardized incentives" written all over it.
How could anyone think that "hey, if I build a mall here, and there's absolutely NO one to buy anything in it, I'LL BE A MILLIONAIRE!!"
That's COMPLETE nonsense. Who the hell would buy the empty mall? What shops would fill the mall when there are no customers? What bank would agree to finance it?
No. This can only be the result of a bunch of people who aren't investing money that was earned. This has "tax money and monetary inflation" written ALL over it.
The disgusting part is that it's happening here in the US!! Remember the housing crisis we just went through? Well, I dunno about you, but I can't go 10 miles without running into a new housing development. Government is still fueling the boom even after it busted!!
Why does the government choose to funnel money into building and architecture?
1) people like having clean, new places to live
2) "new houses are more fuel efficient, and thus good for the environment!"
3) The sheer amount of resources needed to complete these tasks makes employment numbers look better
4) Think of all the industries that benefit - lumber, steel, manufacturing, concrete... the list goes on.
But they ALWAYS fail to look at "the unseen". All those resources COULD be building something that people would rather want.
"Human Action", by Ludwig Von Mises; "Economics in One Lesson", by Henry Hazlitt; "Lessons for the Young Economist", by Robert P. Murphy; and "How an Economy Grows, and Why it Crashes", by Peter Schiff.
Read these, and be enlightened.
"For years, regional governments across China have been building massive real estate projects..."
Governments are, by definition, socialist enterprises. Thus, this is socialism building these idiotic settlements. Of course, the government is too pathetic to actually BUILD the buildings, so they just steal money from the populace to pay contractors money to build the buildings.
It's socialism run amok.
TM we are going to get you a button that reads JLB
"Just like Beck" The Blaze is his invention.
Then you'll have to get me one.
While you're at the button store, get one with someone's head in the sand for yourself.
I agree with this and the other post above regarding Socialism run amok... actually it os communism run amuk. But I get your point and I showed yesterday they are basically all the same these day. As soon as the gain power they will fracture and fight,.. but for now they run hand in hand.
And it doesn't matter who reported it Dutch, it is a true story. So...? What we ignore it cause you do not like the messenger?
It is hard to imagine such ignorance and blind stupidity from even the really blind and stupid posters in these forums.
China is building EVERY city in a tidal wave that starts with renewing the centre, then spreads out in all directions to create massive new suburbs. They are relocating EVERY industrial enterprise out of the cities and into vast new linked and co-ordinated industrial parks, each with their own new-built high-rise suburbs complete with shops, banks and huge shopping malls.
Far from being ghost towns the apartments are bought up before they are built in many cases, if you want an apartment in Guilin here (as I am contemplating right now) the only available places for sale have not even had foundations completed yet. EVERY city is now connected with high quality expressways, railway linked and high speed 'bullet' trains between all the major centres across China making the trip competetive with flying.
One estate in the south of China comprises 2010 individual villas that are already sold out as the last few are being completed at 200 million Yuan each, the apartment that I am considering is 450,000 to put this into perspective.
The navigable rivers are being dredged and freighter ports opening in any possible major 'collection' point complete with customs etc so that the goods can be shipped directly from the industrial complex to the overseas destination.
This is not from some bullsh!t Fox news story or some make-believe analyst - it is what I see and from the documents I translation-edit. If anyone wants to invest in the next number one world economy you are free to contact me, I can put you in touch with projects to own or invest in from clothing to aircraft parts to the chemical guts of your cellphone battery and solar panels. It may be a good move as the US is about to lose its AAA trade credit rating by the end of this year, just as China goes up a couple more notches.
If you all want to put up bullsh!t posts from raving loony right wing nut jobs it might be prudent to check them first.
You have the right to your opinion, recco. As do the rest of us, including the article's author and the site owners I got it from. Thats a great thing isn't it. And you can get us in on the bottom floor for investment eh? Propagandist.
Not my opinion - I am here and see it all and write up their advertising, real estate company financial reports, bank annual statements - and offers of ready made units for ownership of investment. Would you like to buy a nice business with guaranteed earnings because the ready made factory next door makes the items from your product and the factory ready made next door to that does the packaging, advertising and marketing and the connected central industrial park is only logistics with its own customs clearance facilities connect to the port at the end of the whole complex. How is anybody going to compete with you ?
You see what they want you to see... it is the communist/Socialist Leant Leftist way. Think Stalin's Propaganda and the NY Times, who only showed what they wanted America to know about that country, think Hitler and the Olympics, and how everyone only saw what he wanted them to see.
You cannot always believe only what you see.
Wow - I had better ignore what I see with my own eyes, much better to rely on some scrap of text run up by a propogandist in Washington - get real.
Nowhere near what I said... but nice obfuscation. Many have been fooled by what they see on the News, and what they see while in totalitarian countries, only to learn later what they thought they knew from seeing, is not what it was in truth.
Thus I referenced the NY times and their mis-information about Stalin's Russia, and Hitler's Germany as an example. The News and Govts are excellent in hiding things.
"If anyone wants to invest in the next number one world economy you are free to contact me, I can put you in touch with projects to own or invest in from clothing to aircraft parts to the chemical guts of your cellphone battery and solar panels."
Maybe it would be best not to rush in with your dollars too quickly, as per this article titled, "China Social Unrest Getting Out of Control: Expert"
There's plenty more articles like this if you google "china unrest."
Of course, if you live where you aren't allowed to google such things, you won't know, will you.
Of course if I live here I don't need to google what is on my front doorstep. But I guess I should ignore what I see and pass through on my travels and imagine riots and smoke everywhere.
China is a pretty big place and without a free press, it's hard to see how anyone could know what is happening beyond their immediate area. I don't know if you're allowed or not, but if so, check this out.
"China vows help for Inner Mongolia after unrest"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110615/wl … 0615114035
I checked it out and . . . . ?
Is this supposed to be some special problem that does not occur in all parts of hte world ?
The only difference here is that the government at least says they are going to do 'something'
and I just checked - just in case - and it is mentioned pretty much the same way in the China Daily, probably where Yahoo go the story.
"The only difference here is that the government at least says they are going to do 'something'
and I just checked - just in case - and it is mentioned pretty much the same way in the China Daily, probably where Yahoo go the story."
All true - the point is there is unrest in China and it is not a minor thing - it will bring about big changes.
This is pointed out in another article in Reuters titled "Why labor unrest is good for China and the world"
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/06/ … TT20100602
The Chinese people are ready for democracy and the increasing share of wealth going to corporate China instead of labor cannot be justified.
You cannot be the cheapest source of everything forever. India, Indonesia, South America - all are scrambling to replace China in that role. All this means is that it's time for China to act like the world class economic power that it is, and leave the vestiges of Maoism behind.
By the way, I found the link for this link in "China Today."
But corporate America seems more than happy for that state of affairs to exist!
Virtually everybody on these forums will shout me down when I argue for a minimum wage, or higher taxes for the top few percent.
Corporate America and Corporate Britain have no agenda except to make money, period. Social change in China actually goes against that aim, at least in the short run.
Corps. locate to China for cheap labor and less environmental regulations. The coming changes in China will work against both of these advantages.
The U.S. and U.K. are democracies. If big business is out of hand, organize and battle against it. If you're not in the fight for what you believe in, then you'll just have to take whatever crumbs that you're given.
Evan, I urge you to read "The Holyland: A Suburban Memoir"....
As with Lakewood, true, funding came from the government....but as for those who designed the plans, they simply used the government to enrich themselves....
http://books.google.com/books/about/Hol … gEEDGqn9cC
mike, I'm agreeing with you.
Indeed - the companies DID build there, they DID profit from the building, they DID knowingly build where they knew their buildings would be wasted.
But WHY DID THEY DO IT?!
They did it because the government stole money from it's people (taxes) and then gave it to these builders.
It's not the companies' fault, it's the government's fault. Sure, the chief benefactors were the companies, but the people who carried out the theft came in the name of the government.
"10 x 330ml plastic coke bottles are worth enough cash to buy the same breakfast that I eat most days."
These guys will have enough plastic to buy breakfast for the whole office.
A related article:
"...According to China Worker.info, Zhou Shenxian, China's environment minister, posted an essay on the ministry's website warning about recent environmental problems in China that have led to social unrest. One such riot reported involved thousands of villagers protesting water pollution from an aluminum plant in Guangxi province.
Reuters reported that the Yian Jianguo, manager of a Taizhou Suqi Storage Battery Co. Ltd in Shangtao village near Taizhou city in Zhejiang province would face environmental charges after 53 children and 170 villagers were poisoned by lead. The same report cited a similar problem in an Eastern province affecting 200 children and a riot at a smelting works blamed for lead poisoning affecting 600 children in 2009. CNN reported that 51 children of 110 examined showed high levels of lead in Hekou village in Jiangsu province and explained that environmental regulations of smelting and battery plants were lax, according to Dafeng municipal environment protection bureau official.
The rest of this article is at
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20110403/us_ … _disasters
The West is not the cause of China's environmental disaster. It was, and is, government policy to industrialize at all costs.
This is called DEVELOPING - every country went through it to get to become DEVELOPED. Its not hard to work out old mate.
You should maybe stop firing blanks at China and start to worry about what is going to happen in the US as it loses its AAA credit rating shortly, continuing its inevitable descent to becoming a 'second' world country in close pursuit of your education system that is already there. That will bring the dirty industries back to you, if you can win them from India and the rest of the newly developing nations in Asia around China. And you guys still haven't cleaned up the mess they made when you did have them.
Manning up to mistakes has never been a communist strong point and obviously, it still isn't.
The communist gov't is willing to sacrifice your environment, your history and worst of all, your freedom to hold to power and privilege for themselves. They control the press and use their police force to stifle dissent.
Many in China are hedging their bets and traveling to the U.S. to have their babies, so they will be U.S. citizens.
They don't seem as convinced as you are of the PRC's glorious future.
The U.S. is by far the world's largest economy and is the most important market for many countries - including China. You better hope the West is rich forever - your economy depends on it.
China is now claiming islands that are remote from China but resource rich. Islands belonging to Viet Nam and Japan, namely.
You must be very proud.
I thought the whole free press covered this. I have seen it twice without looking for it.
China is a complex mix at the moment, but still manage to feed more of it's billion plus people than anyone else.
China owns America, not because it wanted to pick up the debt, but because it needs a market for it's goods, so they try to hold the dead economic mess in abeyance.
"I am a pacifist, deeply concerned about human rights and freedoms. Coming here to see and hear for myself has changed my perceptions and understanding about all these things, I have come to realise that even the way we use the terms are instilled with the lies of our politics (and theirs) - and I find it hard to see much difference in the end result of the application in both systems."
I have no doubt whatsoever that the shortcomings of both systems will be remedied by the citizens of each country.
I am, however, just as worried about China's "ghost cities" as I am about U.S. debt because either one could could start a cascade of financial ruin that would bring down the economy of most of the world.
I also regard myself a pacifist and like most people I know, I want an end to American military involvement in other areas of the world, for economic reasons if for nothing else. Western debt won't be manageable without peace and a stable economy in the East, and vice-versa.
Eventually, international cooperation will become the norm because there is no other option.
"My mistake. I suppose you didn't learn anything new from the wikileaks incident. You tried to tell everyone the WMDs didn't exist and all about Abu Garib too, right?
Do you think we now know everything slimy and underhanded our government does? I don't think so. Have you spent much time in China? smile
It's just hard for me to believe you know more about China than Recommend does. I've always found him to be fair and honest in his opinions on any subject here. smile"
You make a lot of suppositions about what I know. I don't know if I know more about China than Rec does, but it seems I know more about China than you do. What have you ever done about Abu Garib or anything else you don't agree with? Have you even written a letter to your reps?
Ranting on a relatively small forum won't change much.
by Brandon Daniel 4 years ago
Should the U.S. be worried that China is massively building up their military right now?China is building up their military at a greater rate than Hitler did prior to WW2. China's military is as technologically advanced as ours.
by American View 5 years ago
So far we have the tax increase on the middle class that was not suppose to happen, major increases in health insurance premiums which was not suppose to happen, no even approach for the fiscal cliff, Obama threatens no spending cuts just wants to raise the debt ceiling, wants an unlimited debt...
by qwark 7 years ago
They are a billion plus and increasing, yet suffer little "within," and deftly resist being involved in war in other countries.They rule with an "iron fist" and stop internal dissonance immediatley.There is no doubt that predatory,contemporary man "needs" to be...
by Moderndayslave 6 years ago
How could America afford to construct World Class infrastructure in the 30's 40's and 50'S?But we can't afford to patch potholes now?
by MikeNV 8 years ago
This is appealing. Walmart KNEW the jewelry they were selling is TOXIC. And it's target audience KIDS! Selling toxic jewlry to kids. And trying to make a profit when they know full well it's dangerous to kids. Refusing to pull the product AFTER they knew the dangers.That's a company run...
by harmony155 5 years ago
Why doesn't America turn the lights off at night?Skyscrapers in downtown cities keep lights on inside at night, unnecessarily. Isn't this such a waste of resources?
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