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10 tips for how to deal with atheists in the forums

Updated on September 8, 2012

NOTICE TO ATHEISTS

This hub is written for believers, so please do not waste time arguing how I am completely mistaken about atheists or who pulls their strings.

You just cannot understand.

No offence is meant, but it seems to be taken anyway, so sorry guys, that's life!

http://aguasilver.hubpages.com/hub/Replies-to-Athiests-over-10-tips-for-dealing-with-atheists-in-the-forums

This hub owes thanks to all our resident atheists, Ralph Deeds, Mark Knowles, earnestshub , (who has since died, regretably, and we can now be assured knows the secrets of the univese and eternal existence, where ever he is.) and lets not forget the new guys and gals on the block!

Apologies to those I have missed, it's no affront to you, you just are not as prevalent as those listed in furthering the propagation of the gospel by default.

Face it guys, we need a 'thorn in our side ' to keep us in line and in faith, and to illuminate those who inhabit Churchianity for spurious reasons.

So thank you atheists, for doing Gods will and being ever diligent in proclaiming the deception of Satan to ensure that we are not deceived.

When you enter the forums, get settled in to discuss with your fellow believers what and why you believe, you will meet them, they will be there trying to disrupt your fellowship and cause the subject to be hijacked, or denigrated to a level where believers just walk away.

Don't blame them, it's their task designated to them by the master they refuse to admit exists.

Someone needs to be The Satan whisperers...

Meanwhile I also need mention the other source of this inspiration a hub by rocketjsqu:

http://hubpages.com/hub/Christian-vs-Atheist-Who-Is-Right-and-Who-Is-Wrong

Maybe the above hub and the following will help in dealing with these folk....

Essential watching...

Not all atheists are the same, indeed, they tend to be from a wide and varied background, and quite intelligent, normally.

There are some who just repeat nonsense the whole time incessantly, using inane one liners that they think are smart, and which are designed to keep you chasing the sticks that they throw.

Ignore them, answer another post, to show that you are not driven away by their control spirits and get on with things.

They hate being ignored, because control spirits hate being ignored, and most of them have denigrated to a point where their spiritual masters are beginning to manifest, showing their true colours.

Generally atheists truly believe what they don't believe, i.e. they are ardent, and of course they should be, for all atheists have decided that God does not exist, and in doing so have decided that they will not suffer any eternal consequence.

It takes a hard head to decide that you are so right that eternal damnation is an acceptable risk for being wrong.

They will always attempt to argue using their rules, which basically means that they will always be pushing to get you to try to show evidence that meets THEIR criterion as proof.

This 'carrot' should never be chased, unless you are a desperate donkey!

You KNOW the truth and have seen the proof of God in your and others lives, whereas they are spiritually dead, unregenrated and under the authority of our enemy, the Lord of this world, Lucifer, Satan or whatever you call him, I just call him 'the enemy', because he is OUR mutual enemy.

As a believer you have protection from the enemy, except where you have unrepented sin, as an atheist they have much less protection from the enemy, as they obviously cannot repent for their sins to a God they refuse to acknowledge.

But they do still live under Gods Grace and Mercy, because Mercy triumphs over Justice, whilst we are alive.

And God still loves them, and so should we, for they are Gods children, just led astray by the world system and their self declared intellectual pride and ego.

Stand up and be counted!

Are you an atheist, agnostic, believer or other?

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    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 2 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Smart person (AKA Athiest) nobody said you need to believe in the enemy for the enemy to have power over you, you may not believe in gravity, but whether you jump of a curb, or from an airplane, gravity works, and we are all subject to its laws.

    • profile image

      Smart person (AKA Athiest) 2 years ago

      You say that athiests are lead by the devil... Listen to me hunni, we don't believe in the good fairy Or the bad fairy.

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 2 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Thanks for taking the time to visit my pages Catherine, and for commenting, you state... "Atheists are the enemy? That is harsh."

      And I agree, to an atheist, it must seem harsh, but to any believer in Yeshua and the scriptures,it's an inescapable fact.

      Atheists reject God, which makes them mini antichrists by definition, and the antichrist is the enemy of God.... so it figures that any believer will recognise they are enemies of what believers understand to be the current scenario in the secular world.

      In fact nobody can categorically state that God does not exist, at least not whilst they live. Agnostics would be a more logical and rational description, for as believers only get absolute proof if they are correct in their beliefs upon death, so to it is with agnostics, because there is no physical proof for or against the existence of God that either side could present and have scientifically proven.

      And if non believers are right, then on death neither agnostics nor believers will know it, so I agree, argument is futile, one either chooses to believe or not to believe and waits to find out if one is right, or not (right only applies if believers are right in this instance).

      Believers tend to believe they KNOW they are right, due to holding a personal relationship with their God, although of course, they could never explain what that relationship is to a non-believer, and they could be deluded unless they really prove by application that their God is with them all the time and is a loving God who protects them unless they have done things which allow the real enemy to harm them.

      Former believers tend to be the most virulent in trying to persuade the world and believers that they were deluded, and maybe they were, but only if they never established a real relationship with God, but worshipped Churchianity or just got worn down by the enemy.

      Scripture states that in these last days many will depart from the faith, and also states that the enemy will seek to deceive even the 'elect' - but adds "If that were possible" - it must be possible therefore IF the believer allows themselves to be deceived.

      "You are right about quoting scripture driving us up the wall."

      Accepted, but a prerequisite when discussing matters with any person who views the world through a scriptural 'filter' - rather than views God through a world 'filter'.

      "Atheists don't believe your book. If they thought your book had validity, they wouldn't be atheists. So how can quoting your book to atheists change their point of view?"

      Who wants to change your point of view?

      God wants all to decide, (and so do believers ) based on whatever the Holy Spirit (Rauch HaKodesh) uses to change their existing point of view, but that is their choice and decision, made daily.

      The Holy Spirit is always with us, for now, He protects all those who will be protected, and also tries to protect those who refuse to be protected.

      That will end soon, the Holy Spirit will be recalled, and the enemy will have free reign over all those in his dominion, but by this time the move towards the end days will have removed every remaining believer, by death of Gods intervention, so only those who do not believe will be left to face what happens next.

      It's all about choice.

      When I was a non believer, I cared nothing about what God botherers preached at me, I did not argue, or try to prove them wrong, or bother one bit myself about their opinions, and their right to hold them and express them to all who would listen.

      Why should I have, what they believed was not what I believed, I let them go in peace, why should I care to challenge them, I was not challenged, their threats of damnation never penetrated by belief system.

      My faith came from encounter, and when the world started presenting ever difficult problems for me to handle, and I awoke from the dream that I had lived under, I saw life with open eyes and became spiritually aware that SOMETHING bigger than me was in my life, and that it was trying to assist me to know it.

      Thus started a brief encounter, with spiritual forces that willingly provided me with what I wanted.

      Unfortunately they were rather dark forces, and once they started to take over my life, I knew that if there were dark forces, there must (or should, could, would) be light forces.

      That's when I stood in my olive grove and shouted to a star filled sky " If you exist, you had better make yourself known to me".

      I highly recommend it, and after I had spent a while trying to disprove scripture, I surrendered my rebellion against God and started this relationship.

      Never regretted it!

    • CatherineGiordano profile image

      Catherine Giordano 2 years ago from Orlando Florida

      Atheists are the enemy? That is harsh.

      You are right about quoting scripture driving us up the wall. Atheists don't believe your book. If they thought your book had validity, they wouldn't be atheists. So how can quoting your book to atheists change their point of view?

      Personally, I prefer not to engage in arguments about religion. Live and let live.

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 3 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Bob, thanks for your opinion, but that's all it is, an opinion.

      This was written four years ago, it's a hardy perennial and produces reads all the time, and I thank you for commenting, shows me that folk still see it.

      As for it containing lies.... go show me, I may even respond to your accusations, but if you once held faith, you will know who the accuser of the brethren is.

      Since writing this I have learned to no longer bother with atheists, nor consider their opinions relevant or worthy of debate, things have moved on in the spiritual realm and we are way past discussing such a vacuous belief as atheism is, besides which the BEST anyone can claim is to be agnostic, as the ONLY proof of what happens after we leave this temporal plain is gained by dying, and I suggest that's an extreme measure for someone who believes they only live for this short period of time and then reach oblivion.

      Anyhow, thanks again for writing, stay in touch if you wish, I always see more readers once the comments hot up again.

    • profile image

      Bob 3 years ago

      This kind of lying is part of why I initially began questioning my faith and led to my becoming an atheist. If you can't convert without lying, why bother.

    • Ranzi profile image

      Cut The Bullshit 4 years ago from All Over

      Although I cannot say I'm a huge believer, it's quite fashionable now days to knock God and religion. Through observing many atheists and asking many questions, I've come to the conclusion thaton an unconscious level most are envious that they lack faith, have no higher power to turn to, are sad that after death they have no use, and that they will never see their loved ones in the after life. So they often like to take a believer who has faith and peace of mind with them to the dark side. I mean why? whether religion is exists, is the truth etc, why would you want to destroy someone's belief which brings them peace of mind and happiness? It's like almost cruel to bring them to the atheist side where there's nothing except darkness. I think if I'm lucky enough to some day have strong faith, (hypothetically say religion does not exist) it would better to live a lifetime with peace, certainty and faith than not.

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 4 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Hi Anonymous.....

      "I bet that after you do much research of that, you will see the world like you've never seen before."

      Hmmm, spent the first 42 years doing that, in fact it was extensive research into life that brought me to Christ, and all the searching I have done since has only confirmed what it took me 42 years to learn.

      John

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 4 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Hi atheistchick,

      Never said atheists could not read this article, just that it was written for believers, not atheists, and for that reason, I care not what atheists think about the article.

      Sorry I did not reply earlier, for some reason your comment only showed up today when another comment was posted.

      John

    • profile image

      Anonymous 4 years ago

      I find it extremely sad about how so many people waste their beautiful lives to something which is useless. I have always wanted and tried to wake people up to this reality, but many have become very close-minded. Even if you are religious, I beg of you, open your minds to reality! Look at science, experience things for yourself. Study psychology and look at history. I bet that after you do much research of that, you will see the world like you've never seen before.

      Being kind, caring and loving is something that you do because you want to do it, not because God wants you to do it.

    • profile image

      atheistchick 5 years ago from Hangin' in my room

      John, this is the Internet. It's public. Anyone can see. Saying u want only believers to read ur post makes u an idiot and a fool. We're all gonna see, we all should see what the "other side" is saying about the opposing party. It's only fair. Don't be a stuck-up brat, with a stick up their butt. If your nose so high, I fear you may hurt yourself, not seeing where you're going and scraping it on the ceiling.

      Atheists are not gonna leave, just get used to it

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Hi 2besure,

      Good thinking, I participate to ensure that young believers do not get attacked by the trolls, and the forums are not my favourite place either, but in all societies someone has to keep an eye on the sewers!

    • 2besure profile image

      Pamela Lipscomb 5 years ago from Charlotte, North Carolina

      I don't engage atheist at all! They are not worth my time. The are not on the forums to get an understanding of Christianity; but to provoke arguments that lead to nowhere!

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Hi Tex, thanks for reading, unfortunately most of the atheists I meet are convinced and working to an agenda to decry what they are convinced does not exist.

      Never worked that out, why bother denying what you believe doesn't exist?

    • texshelters profile image

      texshelters 5 years ago from Mesa, Arizona

      I thought of another way to deal with atheists:

      Use facts, logic and reason. But then true believers don't believe fact are relevant when their belief in myth and fantasies is question.

      Atheists admit they don't know, they don't need to make up invisible men in the sky.

      PTxS

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Thanks Caleb DRC ,

      Glad you found it useful and delighted that you are now reading my stuff, although there has not been many additions lately!

      Must try harder, as all my teachers used to write.

      John

    • Caleb DRC profile image

      Caleb DRC 5 years ago

      Outstanding hub, Aguasilver.

      I made an attempt to illuminate the darkened minds, and hearts of atheists in the forums; however, I felt a bit like Ezra in that my association with them is a waste of time and preventing me from doing productive work for Christ. I do not care how much evidence you show them, or how flawless your logic may be, they simply will not see the Light.

      Well, Aguasilve, I'm going to your profile to become a follower.

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Hi Kimpatsu ,

      It's a visual designed to attract the eye.

      Care to give a better explanation?

      Join HubPages and get writing :)

      Thanks for reading.

    • profile image

      Kimpatsu 5 years ago

      You do know that statement in the beginning about "nothing" is rubbish, don't you? Seems a bit disingenuous to attack a straw man like that.

    • slcockerham profile image

      slcockerham 5 years ago from Tallahassee, Florida

      Hey aguasilver, Great hub with a spiritual perspective on it all. I enjoyed your aetheist definition right off jump street. It's kinda like the old story of one farmer complaining to another that the barn he rented from him was full of rats. After chasing them all out past the landlord the farmer exclaimed did you see all them rats. Yhe other farmer answered with his eyes still closed, I didn't see a thing. They are blinded to the truth, unless in honesty they seek God. He will open the eyes of the blind, if they want to see. Thanks for the great advice!

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Adam, I wortoe on a subject that hit some folk and some of them reacted, rather than responded, I expect that, though I hope for the responses, rather than the reactions!

      I am back earlier than I thought and will be posting some answers later.

      Thanks for coming back to me.

      John

    • profile image

      Adam 5 years ago

      My sincerest apologies for the remarks I made toward you, I thought you were deleting my comments when I thought they were relevant. While I don't agree with much of your original post, I can respect anyone willing to honestly discuss their positions.

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      For those of you who wrote comments since 1st June, I have collated them, at least the intelligent ones, and put them together in another hub, which will be published when I have time.

      This morning I am off to Thailand for three days, so it will probably be mid week before I reply to any comments.

      But I will reply, when I get back.

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      General notice to all my new readers....

      The reason you have not appeared YEt is because of Time-zones.... I went to bed a 3am and I live in Penang, which is GMT +8 and 12 hours ahead of the USA, having noticed that I suddenly had a mass of (mainly) nonsense comments from (I guess) atheists appearing in my comments box.

      Now I could do one of two things, leave them there overnight, or switch the page to 'approval' needed, I switched it to approval required and posted a notice to the little boys and girls who were posting rubbish.

      Now I am awake again, and have just scanned the comments made overnight, and will be answering the ones that have any merit, the rest will be deleted.

      This is the first time ever I have turned a comments box to approval required, and it was because I could recognise that my article had obviously been posted on some atheist forum or website, and attracted hundreds of readers (which is good for numbers, thanks) but also a plethora of inane comments.

      The article was written for believers (and I would wish that they posted it to their pages and attracted as much response) not atheists, and although obviously all are welcome to read, frankly the sort of comments your fellow atheists have made were more suited to a forum, than a comments box.

      In a forum I am happy to answer all comers, the comments box, of this particular page, is for relevant comments, not troll style forum pokes.

      As I am able I will answer any relevant posts.

      John

    • profile image

      SuperGeorge 5 years ago

      I find it amusing that the majority of the people who votes turned out to be Atheists, LOL!

    • profile image

      BobM 5 years ago

      Believe whatever you want. Just don't try and legislate your beliefs into secular law to force *me* to live according to *your* beliefs. If i wanted to live according to your church's rules, i'd belong to it.

      I would like to take exception to the assertion that atheists, "fear God." Do you fear Emperor Palpatine of Star Wars? Of course not, because he's merely a character in a fictional story. That's how atheists feel about your god.

      Here, i'll prove i have no fear of your god: What's the "unforgivable sin," denying the holy spirit? There is no such thing as the holy spirit. I deny its existence completely. It never did exist, and never will. I say this knowing full well that if i am wrong, then according to the book of myths called the bible, this denial means i have burned the bridge of ever being forgiven and having redemption from the death of Christ; that my denial will result in my being cast into a lake of fire to suffer and burn in unimaginable agony for all eternity. I laugh in the imaginary face of this fictitious entity.

      Someone would have to be pretty freaking insane to say that if they actually believed in and feared your god, don't you think?

      I'd like to say it saddens me that you're wasting so much of the only life you will ever have, and money that could be better spent improving the lives of your self and loved ones, supporting frauds and charlatans, but frankly, with such willful ignorance in the face of overwhelming evidence that your beliefs are absolutely wrong, you get what you deserve.

      It's one thing to believe in something where there is no evidence at all. To believe even though every shred of evidence collected over many centuries in every branch of science says you are unequivocally wrong? That takes weapons-grade gullibility.

    • profile image

      Christianwarrior 5 years ago

      Debating an atheist is not only a waste of time, it is a sin, punishable by death. The bible says:     "Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel.  "(Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

      Killing atheists is the work of the Lord, and if we show remorse for taking a life, Jesus will forgive us and we will go to Heaven. Seek non- believers out and destroy them in Jesus's name.

    • Sean Blickfeldt profile image

      Sean Blickfeldt 5 years ago from San Diego, California

      I can see that you are writing this with the intention of spreading love and defending your beliefs. However it is not about an "Us vs them" thing. Faith is supposed to be a personal belief not about battling with people that don't believe in the same man in the sky as you do. I was raised in a very strict offshoot of Christianity and had genuine fear of what would happen if i were to question the parts of the story that clearly didn't add up. But i questioned them anyway. I have found a profound peace in releasing myself from the bounds of religion. From the outside you are free to think and question everything in unclouded reasoning. I have studied a lot of the other religious and currant and old. frankly the reason you are most likely christian is simply because of the place you were born and who forced you to submit to their teachings. If you were born in India you would most likely be Hindu or Buddhist, Japan, Shinto, or if you were born in the middle east you would be some sect of Muslim. (Scary thought huh?) If Constantine didn't decide that he wanted the empire to switch to Christianity because it was easier to unit under one god then all of the former roman gods you would believe in their mythology. As you roll your eyes at me and say in your head, "I don't believe in any of those other gods", even though billions of others, believe as much in them, as much as you believe in yours. We atheist stand with you in your none belief in them, we just don't believe in one more. Belief in a god was created for a substitute for when we couldn't understand something. Why are religious people at odds with scientists? Because they are shining a light of how things really work debunking the myths that have been created before to explain them. It is the pride in the belief in these myths that has always attempted to silence reason. Poor Socrates, Copernicus, and Galileo all suffered because of the pride of "faithful" men.

    • profile image

      K.Rodgers 5 years ago

      I notice my post was removed, which is very odd as I was extremely polite - maybe that doesn't suit how you wish to portray us atheists?

      Is there any point you continuing this charade if you just delete any reasonable voice?

    • Unklegwar profile image

      Unklegwar 5 years ago

      "so please do not waste time arguing how I am completely mistaken about atheists or who pulls their strings."

      So, you admit to refusing to listen to any reason or correction. You insist that your audience only consists on people who already agree with your incorrect understanding of atheism. You are preaching to the choir, as it were, and so, really, just like to hear yourself talk.

      Providing "tips on dealing with atheists" loses its usefulness and validity if you (1) don't correctly understand Atheism and (2) refuse to accept correction and instruction.

      To use an analogy (kinda like a Parable, and you Bible folks love those things), would you listen to, or put any stock or faith in someone telling you how to fix your car if they (1) Have no idea what a car does or how it works and (2) refuse to listen to or learn from a car engineer or mechanic? No. You'd dismiss everything they say.

      And so it is with your "tips". You can make all the tips you want, but by refusing to be educated, your lack of understanding of your subject matter renders your "advice" useless and reduces it to so much hot air, to be shared only by others who share your cluelessness and determination to stay that way.

    • Unklegwar profile image

      Unklegwar 5 years ago

      I can't reply directly to post, so I'll just offer this to atheistchick, in response to her (correct) assertion that Atheism is NOT a religion.

      I saw a great analogy that said "If Atheism is a religion, then OFF Is a TV channel"

      As for the "10 points" , they are so full of assumptions, generalizations and baseless assertions as to be laughable.

    • profile image

      Down2Earth 5 years ago

      You guys do know what faith means, right?

      It's funny when a guy hears voices in his head, and it isn't god, he's insane... but if it's God word, it's alright.

      Makes Perfect sense?

      Besides, God is going to have to do a lot more than whisper things in my ear to make me believe in him. Ignorance is bliss to a point... well, it really depends on what part of the world you're living in. Funny how other parts of the world have to be taught the one "true faith".

    • profile image

      Peter Kavelin 5 years ago

      Need to make a counterpoint here. You guys say that Atheists are strident because secretly we believe, it's just that we hate God. You also say we're hateful of you and under the control of Satan.

      Well, let me just say that 3 out of 4 of my favorite people who I love dearly on Earth are believers.

      What's the reason I stridently confront you on your Christianity? Simple. Because you believe I will fry for eternity, that stem cell research should be denied, that there will be a global apocalypse any day now that you should look forward to, and many other offensive premises.

      I try to point out the ridiculousness of what people say because likely, that was how people stopped believing in Thor, a flat earth, Zeus, racism, sexism, etc. They stopped believing because enough people laughed them off. Christianity will wane for the same reason.

      I think conversational intolerance is a good thing.

    • profile image

      Atheist peace 5 years ago

      I cannot believe you deleted that. It was constructive and to the point. But at least you proved your bias. Fact will not be beaten by fiction. Just make sure you enjoy this life. Its the only one we have.

    • profile image

      Adam 5 years ago

      "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” -Matthew 16:28

      "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." -Matthew 10:23

      "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place." -Luke 21:32

      Jesus said he'd be back before the apostles made it throughout Israel then said he'd be back before the people listening to him speak would all be dead. He isn't coming back if he was even here to begin with. See, I don't even need to go outside of your inconsistent, error-ridden book to refute Christian nonsense.

      You have evidence? "For we walk by faith, not by sight." -2 Corinthians 5:7 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." -Hebrews 11:1 The Bible doesn't even claim to have evidence because its writers knew there wasn't any.

      How's that for paraphrasing? No matter how long you were a "non-believer" that doesn't make you any authority on how atheists/agnostics/whatever think or operate. My greatest source of disbelief and anti-Christian arguments come from the Bible, verbatim.

    • profile image

      Malcolm 5 years ago

      Silly humans, too busy arguing over imaginary friends to really further the cause of human on this planet. how about we all spend less time and energy on things no one can prove, and more time and energy on making this world a better place for the people here now and in the future. Doesn't this seem like a more noteworthy cause.

    • profile image

      Akshay 5 years ago

      Interesting read, you seem to be a very resolute person with deeply entrenched views, but then we must appear the same to u. Well thank u for pt6-allowing for atheists’ existence, but (despite ur note at beginning) I must protest at foisting upon atheists a common purpose of Satan’s work. For instance, I was born Hindu so does Satan recruit among non-Christians too!

      I personally feel its OK if others choose to believe in deity/ies, as long it doesn’t impinge upon others. It is that enthusiasm for a secular environment which, I fear, gave rise to points 8 and 9.I concede to the point abt religious people not intruding upon an atheist forum, but(and I speak ONLY for MYSELF here) that may simply be bcoz we tend to be an under-represented minority eager for a platform to share views.

      Another aspect, I find disturbing is ur fixation on Christ, bible etc(following ur comment 4 weeks ago “As for Islam, any believer who knows their bible will also know that Islam is a false religion”).

      U do realize Christians are abt a third of world’s population. Are u dooming over a billion of my countrymen (Indians) to eternal damnation despite being mostly religious simply bcoz our ancestors came up with a different, equally good(imo) set of morality myths. At least allow for the fact that there is no false religion,(most religious people do in my knowledge).

      Finally, I say it without malice, most atheists wud be unmoved by those arguments. But perhaps they wud help support a theist in moments of doubt, which I guess ur original pupose was.

    • profile image

      Atheist peace 5 years ago

      Il be honest and say I couldn't watch it as it was not available on my phone, but I read the blurb, and I visited the links. Its the same old creationist debate. All the proof is there if you look and as far as solid fact is concerned, we can prove that everything we know can occur naturally without god as far back as the big bang. From there, we haven't found out yet but as that wouevld disprove all major religions completely that is why we have to debate with theists, and the creation.... well I will call it hypothesis for the sake of argument. This hypothesis is asserted without proof, evidence or any logical basis. It can be disproved easily as it is completely unscientific in its statement. That is why these people are not allowed to teach science, because what they are doing is against every scientific principle. The subject matter is irrelevant. Please tho, if I am wrong about the content of the video,let me know.

    • profile image

      Peter Kavelin 5 years ago

      1. Useless. Proof: obviously prayer didn't help William Lane Craig, he got creamed by Sam Harris and HItch

      2. By using scripture you're actually making your argument harder to swallow for people who have intelligence and decency. If I were trying to win an argument, I would hope one of my referenced wasn't Deuteronomy, Leviticus or any other barbaric book.

      3. If they do, they are terribly wrong to do so. But I would argue that you don't have to paraphrase to point out to evil in the book. Deuteronomy and Leviticus will do, thanks.

      4. If I'm under the control of Satan, Satan rules!

      5. Again, Hail Satan!!

      6. Glad we make good target practice! The feeling is mutual.

      7. How cowardly. 'Don't engage them because they might hurt your feelings if they're really good.'

      8. Interesting. I would fight for you to say your views if there were only 2 of you. And you say I'm 'after you'? I'm not, I just like to point out ridiculous nonsense when I see it.

      9. I'm not afraid of God. Any more than I'm afraid of Lex Luthor. If I come off strident it's because I can't believe people are still this deluded. And let's not forget, you have offended us in your belief that we will all BURN FOR ETERNITY. And your obstruction of education and stem cell research, among other things. It still amazes me that the Christ story ( a plagiarism of earlier stories like Horus from Greek mythology ) are still believed.

      10. Weak, patronizing nonsense. Recognize an enemy when you see one. I sure do.

    • profile image

      izlude hyral 5 years ago

      lmfao... oh wait, was this supposed to be a serious article? oh you silly thiests, and you silly athiests. whether you believe or not, the problem with both sides is you are all obsessed with god. i'll tell you what though, it's fun to sit on the fence and watch you all fight :P

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Atheist peace, you asked a valid question.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEvq4xIHmH4

      Here's an answer, if you will watch it, it's not religious.

      For the rest of you, keep reading, stop sending rubbish posts, they will be ignored, but can you also take a look at the ads in case there is something you want to buy!

      Thanks once again, love the ratings boost.

    • profile image

      Atheist peace 5 years ago

      Im gonna call you out on this one point. I dont really care what sheeple believe as long as that I have the freedom not to. And of course learning without god means there is no need to include him unless he comes down and demonstrates himself! But please name me one scientist that has been fired or has been rejected at a job due to his faith? I watched a fascinating presentation on evolution by a theist that completely shows 100% that its unmistakable fact! Unless you assert god in a function without proof, scientist would never devalue a valid opinion! Playing the persecution card are we?

    • profile image

      Me 5 years ago

      I find this to be rather.....Unenlightened. Naïve. Sad.

      Why?

      My choice to not believe as you do doesn't make me wrong - it makes me different. No amount of old dusty book thumping and quoting will change my mind about it. Saying people are under the dominion of Satan because they aren't christian? How freaking ridiculous is that? It's like the cries of a petulant child, "If you're not friends with Johnny I don't wanna be friends with you!!!" Calling atheists liars for the sake of calling them liars? Totally makes sense. Because an atheist has to lie to believe as they do?

      Last time I cracked open that book and looked some stuff up, I remembered reading about how the christian god loves all, regardless. You're not perpetuating that. And that is just plain sad. Your god is supposed to be the one to pass judgement and not humans, and yet....look at your article. You've already passed judgement. Hm.

      Instead of being a good person for the sake of being a good person, you'd rather base your life on an antiquated book of already paraphrased stories written by people who never witnessed the things they wrote about. Every heard of the game "Telephone?" You know that regardless of how hard anyone tries, by the time the story has come full circle, the entire story has changed. That makes for GREAT religious text.

      I'm sure you'll rebut me say how wrong I am and how you're going to pray for my soul and for me to see the light.....Feel free. As an atheist, I have no issue with you doing that, as I do not believe or follow any religion, but YOU have every right to practice what you believe.

      Oh wait, did you see what I just did right there?

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      Mathew 5 years ago

      As an agent of your god, as per #6, I must then inquire to you, who seems to have all the answers, if Atheists are created by your god to separate those that still have independent thought from the sheep...then do Atheists get into heaven for doing what they were designed for....or did your god just create Atheists to test only a chosen few and then sentence them to eternal torment and suffering?

      And on that note...if your God is all-knowing, as so many claim that an "unknowable" god is (always tickles me how people claim to know the unknowable) then he/she/flying spaghetti monster would know long before they created anyone...if they were destined for your hell. Therefor I ask...why, if your god already knew that some of his creations were destined for eternal torment, would he create them in the first place. A bit on the sadistic side don't you think?

      However on matters of Christianity I cannot take you seriously until you have demonstrated the powers you are supposedly given through your faith as per Mark 16:18. Cheers. =)

    • profile image

      FreeThinkerPR 5 years ago

      Hello all... While I don't believe in deities, I don't think this should be a discussion among who's right or wrong, but rather where do we meet and in what do we agree. I have studied the Bible and other religious books from other beliefs (I was studying to be a multifaith chaplain when I became an atheist), and I can agree with some of the points there such as:

      We should love and respect each other.

      We should do good and no harm to all living things.

      We should use and embrace our talents and intelligence.

      And having discussions as to weather God exists or not does not help anyone, who cares if believers or non-believers are right in that regard? You believe that by being good you'll get a prize after death, great for you. You believe that by being good you'll just be helping have a better society for the ones remaining after your are dead, great for you also.

      What I don't agree is:

      One group telling the other specific rules to follow - I disagree, as long as a common good is achieved who cares weather you are gay, or you don't pray, or you don't go to church, what harm do that do to others?

      One group trying to force their believes to other groups - Like teaching one religion in public schools, or making laws based on religious morality. I disagree with that, because your beliefs are based on faith and everyone has the right to choose their faith, or to have none.

    • profile image

      K.Rodgers 5 years ago

      Hello dear people.

      Just a note to the Jesus fans (short for fanatics) from one who has seen the light (and realised it was the sunrise as it cresting the horizon)

      Most atheists, myself included, really don't mind what others believe in - we try and explain our point of view whilst bring enlightenment to those who have been indoctrinated into a religious cult (in this case I use indoctrinated to mean those who were told from an early age what to believe in)

      I really don't mind if you believe in a God or even many Gods, I do however mind when people who follow the same cult as you do try and force it into my life or the lives of others. I do not need your God to be a good and moral person, I do not need tablets of stone to tell me I shouldn't steal or kill - the fact you do need to live by those commandments says far more about your morality than my lack of it.

      In short I feel I speak for all atheists (but not necessarily the anti-theists) when I say: Do what you will as long as you don't harm others and don't try and infect children (if your religion is great enough they will find it for themselves)

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Hi Guys, are you a tag team or just some boring teenager, anyhow 89% of people who voted were atheists, reader numbers are a different thing, and the comments show that in any case.

      I guess atheists just need to get attention, their control spirits need to get them past thinking about whether God IS real, so they click that button to make their small numbers seem more significant.

      But thanks for reading, you will no doubt boost the page rank again.

      Edit: Carry on guys, but I will ignore your inane rants, you have nothing to say worth replying to.

    • profile image

      Sky 5 years ago

      LOL 89% of readers are atheist. Nice. :)

    • profile image

      Terri 5 years ago

      In the "Note to Atheists" you misspelled "Offense"

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      Duh 5 years ago

      Too bad you worship the wrong god. It is very sad.

    • profile image

      Momo 5 years ago

      Uneducated and sad. Oh well, I guess people like you will exist.

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Hi atheistchick,

      Sorry, what questions were those, I have not seen any questions, please ask them again and I will answer them.

      John

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      atheistchick 5 years ago from Hangin' in my room

      *sigh* I'm not going to chant in any building...it's like praying, and I refuse to pray.. of course, I can curb my language. I sometimes exert self control. It's just hard to do so when I'm surrounded by idiotic people that don't understand me at all. And aguasilver..thanks for never answering my original questions, Very kind of you!

    • jreuter profile image

      Jason Reuter 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon

      Hmm..so atheistchick, you don't go into a building chanting about the truth of atheism but rather you yell and tear down and misrepresent? I quite often wish many atheists would go inside a building and chant. You are some of the most vocal evangelists in the world! (hi aguasilver, long time no talk. Thank God for summer!)

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Hi atheistchick, I'm leaving your post showing because, although I rarely deny any comment, except where foul language is used, I will leave yours as an indicator to all other readers where your thinking comes from.

      Your 'ya boo suck' comment needs no reply, indeed it was redundant before you started.

      If you were 100% sure of your decision, you would not be here wasting your time promoting my hub, but I thank you anyway, the readers numbers rise daily.

    • profile image

      atheistchick 5 years ago from Hangin' in my room

      ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION!! just the belief in no god or gods...short and sweet. The rest is up to an Atheist. We don't go into a building and chant how Atheism is the ultimate truth(which it is) and everyone can suck dick... we don't do that. But you guys do....see?

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Exactly Wesman, go kick a believer for telling you God loves you and wants to see you bigtime saved with him for eternity.

      Really insulting huh!

    • Wesman Todd Shaw profile image

      Wesman Todd Shaw 5 years ago from Kaufman, Texas

      Failure to coddle the deluded minds of atheism is rude....but hey there is a free for all on Christianity down the street!!!

      LOLOL!!!

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      WOW, Mr opinion, how many times do I need to say that this article was written for believers, NOT atheists, the tips are to help believers who are new to the forum gain some understanding about who they are dealing with.

      Take it as read that atheists view themselves differently than believers do, and see different things.

      You don't agree with my opinions on atheists? Write a hub about it, that's what they normally do.

      This hub was not about 'saving' atheists, it is about saving believers getting mauled in the forums by folk who only hang out there to attack believers.

      I accept all folk, but that does not mean I need pander to them, as a believer, I DO THINK that Christ is superior to other religions, sorry, goes with the faith.

      Hopefully every other non believer will also think that the god they have chosen to follow IS the best god there could be, or they are following a lie.

      Think about it, why would anyone lay down their life for a God, if they were not 100% sure that their god was the top guy?

      Anyhow, thanks for the read, and the comment, sign up to the Hub, you will have fun and can put YOUR viewpoint out there freely.

      It's what free speech is all about.

      John

    • profile image

      opinion 5 years ago

      This article is extremely rude and biased. You obviously have no sense and are so full of yourself that you refuse to except others. This article was written so you could place your religion superior to others. Just because athiest's don't believe in your god doesn't just mean they believe in nothing. Maybe not a god but you make them sound dumb, like they just think we poofed here with no prior anyrhing. No science? How do you suppose your god was created did he just appear out of nothingness? I'm not athiest but I certainly do not believe in your god just because of bible thumping people like you. If you really want to spread your religion do something nice and except people

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Hi texshelters, So you didn't like this one, no sweat, I wrote it for believers to use, and it seems they do!

      Can't please all of the folk all of the time.

      What lies were you referring to? (just curious).

      John

    • texshelters profile image

      texshelters 5 years ago from Mesa, Arizona

      So, post some nonsense and lies about atheism, get a few comments.

      Congratulations for perpetrating the falsehoods.

      PTxS

    • texshelters profile image

      texshelters 5 years ago from Mesa, Arizona

      Really? Just because we don't follow some imaginary being in the sky doesn't mean we believe in nothing. Jesus Christ!

      PTxS

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      yep, Wesman, time truly will be short... Thanks.

    • Wesman Todd Shaw profile image

      Wesman Todd Shaw 5 years ago from Kaufman, Texas

      I need to memorize this - but I'm eliminating most atheist encounters from my life.

      Following the planned mass murders in London this Summer - time will be very short!

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      OK atheistchick, you anger comes over loud and clear, and your hurting, you are just blaming the wrong spiritual entity.

      I hope you can understand that one day.

      This hub was written for believers, though you are welcome of course.

      Have a nice life.

    • profile image

      atheistchick 5 years ago from Hangin' in my room

      How about you get your thumb out of your ass and ask a TRUE atheist about what we have "faith" in, and how WE deal with you believers in forums...you'll be surprised on what you might discover about heathens like me! :)

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Hi atheistchick,

      Suggest you read my profile.

      Been there, done that, seen the truth and write it.

      42 years in unbelief, nearly 20 in faith and belief, I do know what this is about, maybe more than you?

      The first thing that Jesus did before healing folk was cast out the demons they carried.

      You don't just treat the symptoms, you remove the cause.

    • profile image

      atheistchick 5 years ago from Hangin' in my room

      I'm an Atheist, ask me what I believe don't say gibberish and present it as fact. Shame on all those who listened to you and refused to actually research the claims you made about Atheists, and they just took your words at face value. Because your claims make no sense, you are not Atheist so you cannot say that anything bad about Atheists til you have walked in their shoes..

      Do as Jesus would do

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Hi Heathen

      "Sorry to be blunt, but a lot of what you are saying seems to be a whole lot of non-sensical gibberish."

      I realise that, and when I was also 'outside' of Gods Kingdom, it would have been 'non-sensical gibberish' to me also, just as when I moved to Spain, I could not understand a word spoken to me, then I learned the essentials ("dos cafe con leche y uno cervesa") and still was completely unaware of what was being said otherwise.

      We learn by immersion, and 15 years after moving to Spain I spoke bad Spanish, but finally got to the point where I could understand and read Spanish, and Spaniards would speak to me in Spanish, as my (bad) Spanish was still by then better than their (bad) English.

      Getting to know God is much the same, we need to learn His language and ways before we can fully understand what He does, and when we do then what He tells us begins to be comprehensible, rather like Spanish suddenly started to make sense to me as I grew more proficient in 'hearing' the language and eventually started to think in Spanish or English as the situation required.

      "First of all if people just accepted that God created everything and did not have the curiosity to go searching for bacteria and waves, we would not be in the place we are today."

      Firstly, nobody is against science, I sit here talking with you because of scientific curiosity and discovery, but frankly I have no real idea HOW or WHY a computer or the internet works as it does, and before I started looking into computers (and I am old enough to have known a time when computers were exotic beasts that and had lesser capacity than the simplest cell phone of today) they were a complete mystery to me, and rather like IBM I assessed that they had no practical application in my life.

      I was wrong, sometimes we can be wrong simply because we lack understanding of what is in front of us.

      But science, until radical atheism reared it's militant head, had a basic understanding that God was the Creator, and science was the tool used to try and discover how He had made things function, it is only in recent years that science has become a religion and knowledge the 'Holy Grail' to be worshipped.

      Temporal life without science would be far less productive and enjoyable, but the same is true about spiritual life without God.

      "So why should I not have burning curiosity regarding everything and apply scientific reasoning as they did to discover and further scientific knowledge?"

      No reason at all, and there is nothing in scripture to demand that you check your brains in at reception before you enter the Kingdom, I just wish that modern secularism had not made it almost impossible for a scientist to declare faith in God without being told they were insane or unhinged at the least, and in some cases denied employment or publication once they seriously looked at the world in relationship to how God and science were interacting.

      "Why does religion fall outside of this domain?"

      For the simple reason that God chose NOT to allow PROOF to exist, outside of the personal relationship all believers form with Him, which of course is only proof on an individual one to one basis, unsubstantiated and unverifiable by the standards of scientific evidence and theory.

      God made belief and trust in Him a faith issue, we find God one by one, and the entry requirement is faith, after which the proof is provided, for each one of us alone, not those who refuse to have even faith the size of a mustard seed.

      "You said:'atheists are totally unaware of the spiritual realm and the war that is taking place continually in that realm'

      Could you please give me some details on this apparent 'war' going on in our 'realm' - should I order a long sword from my local blacksmith so we can fight it out with the Dothraki at Kings Landing?"

      No, you should simply be aware that there are more things happening around you than you can understand or accept, and perhaps seek to explore what those things are philosophically at first, you should definitely NOT "order a long sword from my local blacksmith" or play role player games, as you would be dabbling with very serious spiritual entities who could harm you or destroy you if you 'play' with them.

      Currently you are unable to receive the spiritual transmissions that surround you, rather like a television with no antenna, you cannot see any picture that makes sense, and until or unless you choose to get an antenna fitted, it will remain that way.

      In all probability you experienced some spiritual approach whilst in puberty, and either ignored it or played games on the ouiji board until you grew bored, or your first lover came on the scene. You may vaguely remember this instance, fleeting as it may have been, Richard Dawkins' put his down to a gust of wind blowing through his bedroom door which just sounded like a spiritual voice speaking to him, and dismissed the notion, seemingly never to have been openly approached again, yet any spiritual believer or even spiritual unbeliever can see the evidence of the enemy working in his life to keep him compliant with his role in the game, and ignorant of the forces manipulating him

      We all accept or reject spiritual advances, and some folk are more highly tuned to receive them than others.

      "And even if you believe Islam is a false religion, Jesus taught compassion and understanding for all people. It's a confusing notion when you simply decide that Christian teachings only apply to fellow Christians."

      Christian teachings are only applicable to believers, as anybody who does NOT accept that Christ is who He said He is, is not under any authority to accept or obey His commandments, any more than I would be under the authority of the Muslim god, and required to kill any infidel (that's you and me) who refused to submit to Islam.

      When I left the UK to live in Spain, I left one regime with it's applicable laws, and came under the laws of what was then a foreign state to me, with laws that differed greatly from the system I knew. In England I was innocent until proven guilty, in Spain I would be guilty until proven innocent, the differences are compatible with living underworld authority as opposed to Kingdom authority.

      "I think it is the first time a christian has reponded without bible bashing, it is a welcome relief."

      Thanks, I take that as a compliment, however I do quote scripture constantly, but thankfully not in ways evident to folk all the time, the only time I quote actual chapter and verse is when I am substantiating a particular point that requires the actual words.

      John

    • profile image

      Heathen 5 years ago

      Hi,

      Thanks for your very quick reply.

      Sorry to be blunt, but a lot of what you are saying seems to be a whole lot of non-sensical gibberish.

      First of all if people just accepted that God created everything and did not have the curiosity to go searching for bacteria and waves, we would not be in the place we are today. So why should I not have burning curiosity regarding everything and apply scientific reasoning as they did to discover and further scientific knowledge? Why does religion fall outside of this domain?

      You said:'atheists are totally unaware of the spiritual realm and the war that is taking place continually in that realm'

      Could you please give me some details on this apparent 'war' going on in our 'realm' - should I order a long sword from my local blacksmith so we can fight it out with the Dothraki at Kings Landing?

      And even if you believe Islam is a false religion, Jesus taught compassion and understanding for all people. It's a confusing notion when you simply decide that Christian teachings only apply to fellow Christians.

      Thanks for the quick reply again. I think it is the first time a christian has reponded without bible bashing, it is a welcome relief.

      May the 4th be with you.

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Hi atheistchick,

      Thanks again, best read the reply to Heathen below this.

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Hi Heathen,

      Thanks for reading, and even the comments also, that shows devotion!

      "none of the above points will made any impact on an atheist"

      When this was written, making an impression on any atheist was never the intention, it's written for believers to read, though of course atheists are welcome as well.

      As for Islam, any believer who knows their bible will also know that Islam is a false religion, very broadly based upon the scriptures of the Old and New testaments, but still a different author, so to speak, and just as mislead and deceived as atheism is.

      One thing that has become apparent in the two years since penning this, is that atheists are totally unaware of the spiritual realm and the war that is taking place continually in that realm, and that is as it should be, for atheists clearly cannot allow spiritual aspects to relate to their beliefs, or they would be forced to accept that there were realms in the spiritual world that they could not measure or tested evidentially.

      Acknowledgement of this would obviously be problematic for any atheist.

      Our mutual enemies BEST defence is that he has managed to persuade most folk that he does not exist, and hiding in plain sight has always been the best defence. But he is there, and anybody of any spiritual awareness sees that in their spiritual life.

      Until 150 years ago, nobody could see or prove that bacteria existed, but it did, and it killed despite the fact that doctors and scientists refused to acknowledge it's presence.

      Likewise radio wavelengths had been floating around us for years before science could detect them.

      Inability to prove existence is not the same as something not existing.

      Anyhow, thanks for an interesting comment and again, as I said to Dave, join Hubpages and post a rebuttal by all means, as all debate is great for exposing the lies of the enemy, who is not BTW you or any atheist.

    • profile image

      Heathen 5 years ago

      This made my day, by far the funniest thing I have read in a long time.

      I agree completely with 'Dave' (commented 12 months ago) - none of the above points will made any impact on an atheist, and I must admit when it comes to bible verses generally atheists are much more likely to have read the whole thing over a Christian (sorry, but generally we aren't born into being an atheist, it takes years of careful consideration and study).

      In terms of the comments here I am a little appauled at abundence of anti-Islam sentiment. They believe in something fairly similar to you (in a broad sense) and if you think Atheists are the work of Satan you should not be throwing out fellow believers to the same "fate".

    • profile image

      atheistchick 5 years ago from Hangin' in my room

      That was one gay-ass article. We don't worship some Satanic entity. We don't carry out any work. Get your facts straight

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      atheistchick I'm just pleased that you read it!

      I sleep in on Sundays also, but every day of the week I live with my Lord, so Sunday is nothing special, indeed I know plenty of believers who reject Sunday.... because it IS Sun Day...

      The article was written for believers, not as a slant against atheists, but to warn and prepare new forum writers what to expect when they encounter 'professional' atheists.

      I lived 42 years without Christ, 4 years without him is a walk in the park! I really tried to avoid Him, but I guess He had other ideas.

      Thanks for commenting, and remember that God still loves you whatever you don't believe.

      John

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      atheistchick 5 years ago from Hangin' in my room

      Just because Atheists don't believe in your god doesn't mean they believe in NOTHING. On Sundays, I sleep in. Every other day, I'm awake, alive, and HAPPY! Is Happiness a concept you don't understand? You can be happy without god. I have lived three (almost 4) years without god, and I have never been happier! Atheists believe in science, not fairy tales in a dusty, old book.

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Hello Me, welcome, yes we do accept parody!

    • profile image

      Me 5 years ago

      Thank you for fighting the good fight, Christians.

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      Lone Ranger 5 years ago

      Indeed, jreuter, Jesus did rub elbows with sinners, so to speak, but He did not hang out with them. And, yes, I would expect Paul to sacrifice his eternal reward to save the Jews, but I am not like Paul and I do not know many Christians who were thrown off their horses by the blinding light of God and given an audible mission.

      Of course you are right to say that this is a "very tough issue". I, too, am relational and tend to like people, but I also know that bad company corrupts good character and you can tell a lot about a person by the company s/he keeps (both admonishions are Biblical perspectives). And, please remember that light only shares the dawn with darkness for a moment in time, and then it goes its way.

      I have met a few Christians on Hub Pages that will go so far as to forge friendships with active homosexuals, pagans, and other flagrant sinners in their day-to-day lives. It is my contention that they have succumbed to the doctrine of diversity and now believe that "tolerance" is the 11th Commandment.

      Somehow I think Lot and his wife may have made peace with sin as well, living around it for so long, and let us keep in mind that they did not have one convert in Sodom or in Gamorrah in all the years they lived there.

      I know you are not espousing this concept, but some Christians think they must plant the seeds of hope in Christ Jesus, and then tend the garden as well. This we cannot do. No matter how hard we try, we cannot make a seed grow and it is not our priviledge or place to harvest that which blossoms.

      We must always be on guard against spiritual compromise and investing even a second more than is prudent around the unredeemed is a recipe for disaster.

      Best wishes, be well and behave - L.R.

    • jreuter profile image

      Jason Reuter 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon

      Yes, but L.R., didn't Jesus have dinner with sinners? And what did Paul say concerning the Jews who did not know Christ? He said that he would be willing to be eternally condemned if they could know the truth! That kind of love is far beyond what I practice, yet I'm only proposing a more relational approach. And knocking the dust off one's sandals is a far cry from the Carmen approach, which is really sort of a verbal attack.

      At the end of the day, I do understand that it's a very tough issue to know how to approach. I believe there's a fine line between non-healthy and healthy relational approaches to non-believers, and I of all need to work on this the most.

      Bless you brothers. I'm thankful for your words, and very glad these sort of dialogues can happen in a spirit of love and unity.

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Thanks LR, it's quite categoric.

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      Lone Ranger 5 years ago

      Thanks, John, I'll look into it!!!

    • aguasilver profile image
      Author

      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Hi Lone Ranger, in my version it's in Romans 11.

      I know dispensationalism has long been popular in the US doctrines, along with a few other oddities, however I think it dangerous for any believer to choose to think that WE are now replacing Israel in Gods affections.

      Gods promises are YES and AMEN.

      But we can agree to differ, and if you come from a background that teaches that God has abandoned Israel, I understand.

      There are of course many different aspects to both Israel's and Judaic identity, and there are many questions over who is actually physical Israel, as opposed to 'spiritual' Israel.

      But Gods word is unchanging, same today as it was yesterday, and Romans 11 satisfies me that Gods promise continued into the New Covenant.

    • profile image

      Lone Ranger 5 years ago

      Aguasilver wrote:

      "...and remember those who bless Israel will be blessed, and vice versa."

      ----------------

      John, I deeply appreciate what you stand for and please consider me a kindred spirit and brother in Christ. However, do you actually think the above quote is still applicable today? And, if you do, what Biblical evidence do you have that we should support the "Jew" any more than any other ethnic group?

      You are aware that the Almighty divorced the Jews for breaking the old covenant (time and again) and thus turned them over to the Romans in A.D. 70?

      At the time the Almighty divorced the Jews for breaking the old covenant, they ceased to be His covenant people and everything He gave to them was taken from them.

      What post-resurrection evidence is there that the Almighty still holds them any more dear than the Gentiles?

      Unless you can show me concrete proof that they are still esteemed by God after He handed them over to their enemies in 70 A.D., I think your allegiance to Israel and the Jews, though touching, may be antiquated and misguided.

      Best wishes to you and yours - L.R.

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      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Hi Dr. Warren Wierdsbe, nice hidden identity, your comment may have more substance if it actually had an identity with it, why not open a HubPages account, then you can post with some substance, and maybe write some Dr. Warren Wierdsbe articles?

      Actually you have pointed out an incongruity in the hub, written ages ago, and I now know some better videos to put in it, though I may leave the Carman vid in, just because it's a good video.

      Never thought about any Jewish aspect to the video, but I guess I would not, as I am not anti semetic, in fact quite the reverse, I support Judaism and Israel, but out of the mouth, comes the desires of our hearts, so be blessed and remember those who bless Israel will be blessed, and vice versa.

      Have a nice anonymous day.

      John

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      Dr. Warren Wierdsbe 5 years ago

      Thank God for this, and for the video pointing out that the witch was an evil, hook-nosed, child-eating Joo.

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      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Hi Manny,

      I guess secularists come in all shapes and sizes also!

      But I would reckon all people have that void in them, the one that causes them to seek something to fill it.

      What did you fill yours with?

      Why not join HubPages (I can see you are not a member) and tell us?

      John

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      Manny Ron Blue 5 years ago

      @aguasilver

      From Dictionary.com

      a•the•ism

      1. The doctrine or belief that there is no God.

      2. Disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

      You bear false witness in your definition above. Not all atheists believe in the Big Bang theory. I don't believe in the Genesis crap but I don't have a void inside me to fill with another fairy tale like the Big Bang Bull or Evolution Bull.

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      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Hi Daniella,

      No I am certainly not weak in my faith, and do discuss faith and lack of it with atheists, after all, I was one for 42 years!

      But I am not someone who speaks to active atheists with any notion that they are anything other than under the control of a master they do not know or recognise, and as such, I am not endangered when I speak with them.

      My comment was to reflect to JRueter that thinking that kind words and a cookie will win an atheist to Christ is dangerous, because it fails to take into account the situation I state above.

      Many times I have 'heard' and 'seen' the spiritual forces that lurk behind someone's façade, they even sound the same, as if folk are programmed, and to a degree they are.

      Ever heard the expression 'familiar spirit' - well it stems from the fact that the spirit is so engrained with their subject, that the subject views them as familiar and therefore harmless.

      Dangerous assumption.

      My 'familiar spirit' lived with me for 30 years, and changed me during that time to who it wanted me to be.

      Ridding myself of it was the most liberating day of my life.

      He called himself the spirit of my grandfather, and I grew over 30 years to love and rely upon him, but it has been much better since he was evicted from my life.

      That may sound strange to you, but it is not strange when you have understood the spiritual hierarchy, and worked to bring order to chaotic lives.

    • aguasilver profile image
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      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Hi Daniella,

      No I am certainly not weak in my faith, and do discuss faith and lack of it with atheists, after all, I was one for 42 years!

      But I am not someone who speaks to active atheists with any notion that they are anything other than under the control of a master they do not know or recognise, and as such, I am not endangered when I speak with them.

      My comment was to reflect to JRueter that thinking that kind words and a cookie will win an atheist to Christ is dangerous, because it fails to take into account the situation I state above.

      Many times I have 'heard' and 'seen' the spiritual forces that lurk behind someone's façade, they even sound the same, as if folk are programmed, and to a degree they are.

      Ever heard the expression 'familiar spirit' - well it stems from the fact that the spirit is so engrained with their subject, that the subject views them as familiar and therefore harmless.

      Dangerous assumption.

      My 'familiar spirit' lived with me for 30 years, and changed me during that time to who it wanted me to be.

      Ridding myself of it was the most liberating day of my life.

      He called himself the spirit of my grandfather, and I grew over 30 years to love and rely upon him, but it has been much better since he was evicted from my life.

      That may sound strange to you, but it is not strange when you have understood the spiritual hierarchy, and worked to bring order to chaotic lives.

    • Daniella Lopez profile image

      Danielle Lopez 5 years ago from Arkansas

      "To consider the enemies troops as subjects you can "connect with ....on a relational level, and make plans to come back for more dialogue (maybe even bake some cookies to bring with him next time)." is (IMO and experience) a dangerous tactic, liable to cause contagion of the practitioner, rather than conversion the subject." ---Does this not mean you are weak in your faith? that you cannot have a one on one conversation with an atheist?

      Also, if all atheist are Atheist because of some past hurt or pain, wouldn't trying to talk to them and working with them on a spiritual level be more affective than being a "hammer"?

      I'm not an Atheist, nor am I a Christian, but I still found your points a little odd. Perhaps elaborate more.

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      Chris Montgomery 5 years ago from Irvine, CA

      Speechless.

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      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Thanks Princess, I look forward to reading you more.

      John

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      Princess Pitt 5 years ago

      Glad I found this!...I never thought there would be an atheist here, who seems to hate the whole world! And yeah your a genius for lifting yourself from the mud.

      Voted all the buttons.! \m/!!

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      Lone Ranger 5 years ago

      JRueter said:

      "Oh, and concerning the video, I would have liked to see Carmen sit down with the witch, get to know his history, connect with him on a relational level, and make plans to come back for more dialogue (maybe even bake some cookies to bring with him next time)."

      ----------------

      J.R., you know that I hold you in high esteem and I think you are an exceptional young man, but this is a very risky approach you are suggesting. I thought the Bible instructed us not to even break bread with people of this nature, let alone sit down to eat baked cookies with them or get to know their story.

      Weren't the disciples instructed to dust off their sandals and walk away if the message was rejected? Did Jesus tell the woman at the well to "Go and sin no more" and leave it at that? Or did He also say, "By the way, let's get together sometime so we can get to know each other better. I'll pick you up at the seventeenth hour and we can go to the Garden and discuss your history over some unleavened bread and goat milk."

      I am not sure, JR, but this doesn't sound like the instruction the disciples were given and doesn't match Christ's M.O., at least as far as I'm aware.

      In fact, when I was a young ranger and Silver was just a yearling, I was ensnared in the Devil's trap by being too "relational" and overly inquisitive. Damn-near ruined me for good!

      Please remember that it's God's message that needs to influence the individual, not the messenger. Deliver the message and then get out of Dodge.

      Best wishes, be well, and be fruitful - L.R.

    • aguasilver profile image
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      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Hi jreuter, horses for courses I guess!

      This hub was written after watching the religious forums for a while, I have another called 'Satan Whisperers' which is also aggressively confrontational.

      I guess, having been on the enemy team myself, I know that thinking one can break down barriers where the enemy is concerned, or with those who are in his dominion, is a mostly futile effort.

      The do not respond HONESTLY to 'touchy feel' approaches.

      To consider the enemies troops as subjects you can "connect with ....on a relational level, and make plans to come back for more dialogue (maybe even bake some cookies to bring with him next time)." is (IMO and experience) a dangerous tactic, liable to cause contagion of the practitioner, rather than conversion the subject.

      The enemy has a purpose and plan, and his greatest success in in convincing most of humanity that he is benign and/or does not exist anyway.

      Those beliefs need a sledgehammer approach to crack, and like the Berlin Wall, it needs thousands of people with hammer and chisel to demolish the bonds that confine the entrapped.

      I fully agree that our enemy is not flesh and blood, but spiritual, however those ensnared in the enemies deception are flesh and blood, and in mostly deep slumbers as to the enemies power over them.

      Anyhow, horses for courses, and I am delighted that God has given you a field to plough where compassion will melt hardened hearts.

      I guess my pre faith 'training' just causes God to use me as a hammer on occasion.

      In the end result, this hub was written to give new forum members a chance to understand how entrenched the enemy is in trying to silence debate about Christ.

      Not for atheists to read or understand.

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      Jason Reuter 5 years ago from Portland, Oregon

      Aguasilver,

      Not sure yet what I think of this hub. Obviously I like any recommendation which involves scripture, but I worry about furthering an "us vs. them" mentality, plus I don't see how Christian relational connections with other human beings can be reduced into a simple list of tips. Every atheist is a wonderfully created individual with their own specific reasons for rejecting God (however wrong they may be), and I personally would have loved to see a hub more directed towards how to break down barriers and to love them more effectively. I know your heart's in the right place, aguasilver, but this hub strikes me more as a battle strategy than a relational approach. Whatever my opinion, may God bless you brother, and thanks for your work in spreading the Gospel of Christ.

      Oh, and concerning the video, I would have liked to see Carmen sit down with the witch, get to know his history, connect with him on a relational level, and make plans to come back for more dialogue (maybe even bake some cookies to bring with him next time). Sadly, he yelled some Christian talking points and slammed the door behind him. Yet another reason why I can't stand Carmen.

    • aguasilver profile image
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      John Harper 5 years ago from Malaga, Spain

      Thanks for commenting Levertis Steele, and indeed I am one of those former atheists who had such a personal experience with Christ, and came to faith.

    • Levertis Steele profile image

      Levertis Steele 5 years ago from Southern Clime

      Dave,

      You said, "Your point 6 is a questionable one to make. It implies that atheist are part of god's plan, but if god has plan and leads it to fruition then how can any of have a true will. If god is directing our actions, or even simply laid out the universe so only one path will emerge then free will is at best an illusion. I'm just pointing out that this point is contradictory to the idea of free will."

      We do have free will. God directs our actions when we let Him; He does not force us. God knows the future and everything that we will do, so He can plan around our actions to work His good will. If we will change our minds about anything in the future, He already knows that.

      Yes, Atheists are part of God's plans. We all are. He loves atheists, too. I have seen atheists turn to Jesus. Many had a personal experience that left no doubt in their minds that God is a living reality. A very close relative is such a person. I love him dearly.

      God works with us the same way we work with our families and friends when we have discerned their motives or plan of action, except God has a precise/perfect view of what will happen.