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Two strange and unusual facts about Jesus Christ, Messiah and Redeemer. His historicity. Jesus's real attitude to Gays.

Updated on September 9, 2015
Jesus. The source of much controversy.
Jesus. The source of much controversy.

The strange story of Jesus and the centurion.

Why did Jesus bless this man?
Why did Jesus bless this man?

Contents.

Jesus Christ. The best known person in history.

The Historicity of Jesus Christ.

Jesus approved homosexual relationships.

Some additional evidence about biblical approval of homosexual relations.

Homosexuals will get a resurrection to glory also.

Jesus Christ. The best known person in history.

Perhaps the most written about personality in history is Jesus Christ, and yet despite the plethora of ink that has been spilled on the subject of this person, the very mention of His name can excite very different emotions. Some love Him with all their hearts as their Lord and Redeemer, others use His name as a stick to beat anyone who tries to live life outside of a very smothering form of morality, that they say is the only way of living that He would approve of. Still others will maintain that He was never an historical figure at all. That the stories of His life and works were invented by control freaks, with but one purpose, to extend and consolidate the servitude of the masses in slavish ignorance.

It is to counter both of these views that I am writing this article. I do not propose to express any opinion directly as to whether Jesus was, or is God. But I do wish to address, first the issue of the historicity of Christ, and secondly evidence that He may very well have given warm approval to a form of relationship not generally lauded by the majority of His adherents today.


The Historicity of Jesus Christ.

It is one of the oddest things in the world that the person who has the best contemporary attestation of anyone from His era should be considered by anyone to be a fictional character. Yet that is undoubtedly the case with Jesus. If I had a dollar for every time I have come across someone either writing or saying that Jesus Christ is a "Fairy-tale character", I would be a millionaire by now. If I stood up and lectured about Augustus or Cleopatra, and even hinted that I doubted their historical authenticity, the men in white coats would probably come to take me away before I had finished my sentence. But the earliest written information we have that testifies to the life and careers of both these personages date from later than The Gospels that tell of the life of the Carpenter from Nazareth.

The first of The Gospels to have been written is The Gospel of Mark. This has been reliably dated to the sixties AD, and was likely written by someone who actually knew the principal character.

Matthew's Gospel was written around the eighties AD.

Luke's Gospel was also written around the eighties to nineties AD. Parts of Luke's and Matthew's accounts were probably based on Mark as there is a great similarity in certain passages.

The Gospel of John was most likely written in the nineties.

The Epistles of Paul were written in the fifties AD.

There is a debate amongst scholars as to the date of composition of The Book of Revelations. Some put it as being written prior to the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 Ad. Others date it to the reign of The Emperor Domitian in the nineties.

The Acts of The apostles were probably written around 62/64 AD.

In addition to these canonical sources there is reference to Jesus in Josephus's "The Wars of the Jews" written around

75/80 AD. Josephus was a Jewish man who collaborated with Rome, and was very hostile to early Christians.

In addition to these sources there are extant innumerable near contemporary references in a variety of non-canonical gospels, i.e The Gospel of Thomas, and The Gospel of Philip.

There is also a reference to Christ in the undoubtedly hostile Annals of Tacitus, (A roman historian).

Ok, so we have all these written sources to use as evidence for Jesus Christ, who some people doubt existed.

So what do we have for those undisputed historical figures, The Emperor Augustus, and Cleopatra Queen of Egypt?

Our knowledge of the lives and careers of these famous and powerful personages are derived from three main sources,

The "Histories" and "Annals" of Tacitus, "The Twelve Caesars by Suetonius, and "The History" of Dio Cassius.

Tacitus was writing around the mid second century AD, so he was testifying to the lives of people who had died at least one hundred years before, Augustus in AD 14, and Cleopatra in BC 30.

Suetonius was writing also in the later second century AD, and Dio Cassius in the third century AD.

How peculiar that people cannot doubt the details in the lives of these people, yet their histories are written down much later from their deaths than the histories of Jesus.

Perhaps some people prefer to disbelieve. It is not, however, scholarly to do so.

Jesus approved homosexual relationships.

“Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.” (Matthew 19:11-12)

The above passage has in recent years caused a lot of controversy in Christian circles. Most of us have the belief that a eunuch is a castrated male human. That was the case for a large part of recent history. We have only to think of the harems in Ottoman Turkey or Imperial China to know that. But that wasn’t always what the word meant. That is not what Jesus understood it to mean. In ancient times the term eunuch referred to men who had no interest in sexual relations with women.

"There are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others" = castrated males.

"And there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven" = celibate, as in priests.

"For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth" = homosexual men

Note, no condemnation, just a simple statement of the facts.

There is also the curious story of the roman centurion and his sick servant.

In the roman army it was the rule that serving soldiers were not allowed to marry. This ban was in force until it was abolished by the Emperor Septimus Severus in 197 AD. It was not unusual for soldiers to have relationships with people they were not allowed to marry. This sometimes included same sex relationships.

In the accounts in the Gospels the word used to describe the beloved servant of the roman centurion in Matthew and Luke was the Greek "pais". When they referred to other servants they used the word "doulus". There is no other instance in the entire New Testament where servants are regarded as any other than "doulus",( which means simply servant or slave). The word "pais" however in ancient Greek is always used to refer to same sex lovers.

The following three examples will illustrate the point.

Thucydides writes of Agathon, 445-400 BC, the pais, same gender lover of Pausanias, King of Sparta, in History of the Peloponnesian War. Their relationship began when Agathon was 18 and continued for twenty years.

Eupolis, a playwright, 446-411 BC, references Agathon, an exceptionally good-looking man who, in his late teens, was the paidika or pais of Pausanias. Their same sex relationship continued to flourish when Agathon was in his thirties.

Aeschines, 390-314 BC, Athenian poet, in Against Timarchos, charged rival politician Timarchos with having lived off his relationships with older men. In such relationships, the older man was called the erastes or the lover, and the younger man was called the eromenos or paidika or pais, the boyfriend. Paidika is derived from pais.

There are others that I could show as well, but I think these three should be sufficient for now.

Nowhere in the story of the centurion does Jesus say "You are an abomination. Take your servant and wait at the gates of Hell" instead he says "I have found no greater faith than this in all Israel". The servant/same sex lover gets cured.

Makes you think. Doesn’t it?

Some additional evidence about biblical approval of homosexual relations.

Homosexuals will get a resurrection to glory also.

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    • christopheranton profile image
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      Christopher Antony Meade 4 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      You're welcome Disappearinghead.

    • Disappearinghead profile image

      Disappearinghead 4 years ago from Wales, UK

      Very interesting. I shall have to look up the centurion's servant in my Greek interlinear. Thank you for pointing this out.

    • Ericdierker profile image

      Eric Dierker 4 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Thank you again for this Hub Christopher. I find nothing false in your writing. I suppose if your arguments were designed to change someones own sexuality I may have issue. But that is not the case.

      It just is not in me to judge one way or the other. As with other issues like universal salvation, pastors vs. priests, I find my only reconciliation is to love all.

    • christopheranton profile image
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      Christopher Antony Meade 4 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      I expect He will celafoe. I'm reasonably clear in my concience. Are you?

    • celafoe profile image

      charlie 4 years ago from From Kingdom of God living on Planet earth. between the oceans

      1 Thess 4:3 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.

      NKJV

      Again i rebuke you in the name of the Lord Jesus and I have no more to say to you. The Lord judge between me and you. amen

    • christopheranton profile image
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      Christopher Antony Meade 4 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      What can I say celafoe? You are either totally ignorant, or a complete fraud.

      As regards your rebuking me, I have just this to say.

      Luke 6: 42.

      "Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye".

    • celafoe profile image

      charlie 4 years ago from From Kingdom of God living on Planet earth. between the oceans

      thanks for the lesson in BS i will file with any other writing I find of yours-in the round file where it belong

      and again I rebuke you in the name of Jesus for bastardizing scripture.

    • christopheranton profile image
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      Christopher Antony Meade 4 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      celafoe.

      As always, your knowledge of the true meaning of scripture is about on a par with your understanding of homosexuality, i.e. zero.

      If you read a Bible, where the word "homosexual" is used in any form, you are reading a false translation. That word was not even invented until 1869 AD. To publish a bible, with that word inserted is to change "what is written". This is frequently done by people in order to bolster their own prejudices. Those are they who "demean the Word of God", not me.

      Oh, and here is another homosexual hero from the Old Testament. Daniel was almost certainly a castrated eunuch and he had a relationship with the chief eunuch. One for you to think about.

      Cheers.

    • celafoe profile image

      charlie 4 years ago from From Kingdom of God living on Planet earth. between the oceans

      this hub is a good example of what happens when people that are not 1. born again 2. baptized in water 3. Baptized in the Holy Spirit, try to write about and discuss the scriptures.

      If one is born again , baptized in water and baptized in the Holy Spirit as required in scripture, then , not only are they a NEW CREATION, ALL old things have passed away, but they are also able to properly understand scripture.

      This is not a scriptural article. It is against scripture.

      Jesus does not hate homosexuals, he HATES HOMOSEXUALITY. No homosexuals will enter the Kingdom of God. But any homosexual that honestly and sincerely takes the above steps (which include repenting of the sin of homosexuality) will become a new creation and a Christian

      And no man can change what is written no matter how hard he may try

      I rebuke you trying to demean the Word of God.

    • christopheranton profile image
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      Christopher Antony Meade 5 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Well whoever made gets my thanks because I am quite content with the results.

    • Sinbadsailorman profile image

      Donald Beres Jr 5 years ago from Valparaiso, Indiana

      The GOD did not create Anyone in the Flesh we were all created In a spiritual Body By Father! In Genesis we learn that we were recreated into GOD and God's Image although most believe GOD is talking to the Angels.

      HE is speaking unto One Specific Angel the Fallen One Lucifer who is now the God of our World because it was A gift or reward that he was given or won from Father GOD the Creator.

      No GOD did not make us the way we are today! HE and Satan recreated Us they way we are. Why so Satan could no longer do and Further damage to our now Mortal souls than he has already.

      No One GOD has ever Created has Died not even the only one currently sentenced to Death Satan. Because He Created us as eternal beings. that would reside with HIM for ever and ever Amen. But Since the God of this Our flesh bodies world is already sentence to die so will all who choose him to follow.

      These flesh Bodies and their sins are a cover up to the Original Sin and the only one we ever needed to repent from. Which is believing in a False God who we Idolized as our Father GOD.

      There is But one true commandment which I believe to be the First One which Satan himself so coveted "Thou shall have no other Gods before Me!"

      John the Baptist gave us everything we Needed to Know and do! And this is why Christ Himself did It. To be Immersed into the Spirit of GOD to Repent and be found Guilty of Sin No More.

      The Immersion like the water Fully submersed in All Things of GOD To Love and Honor the Father as we Do Ourselves and To Love One another as Our Selves for we all Belong to GOD the Father and Creator of Us all.

      We were once All in All a one many membered; Body. As the Church shall be when she comes of age. The Water is liken to GOD's Spirit.

      Because It is Everywhere Seen and Unseen there is no Place in Heaven or in, above, or below earth that GOD's spirit is not. In other words it envelopes Us as did the water in the womb of the Eves of this world. that we were first reborn into these flesh bodies.

      When Father Returns Incarnate Our flesh Bodies will melt away or flee our true GOD given bodies. And the truth will be undeniable. This is Baptism by Fire. You May have hear of Water, of Blood, and of Fire Baptisms This is According to the age of Time Water when Time Began, Blood when the Truth was revealed, Fire when the Truth is Known.

      So No! GOD the Father may have made you Gay in the sense of Happiness! But Not in the sense of sexuality. This was the doing of the Little God the imitator Satan. As above so below will not be until Father GOD arrives and the truth or the GOOD News Be revealed and Fully Known which it is not Today! of this we are all aware! and when Father arrives Home It will be self evident. ( The truth) that is.

    • christopheranton profile image
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      Christopher Antony Meade 5 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Hi Sinbad.

      Thanks for that erudite dessertation. I must differ with you on one point however. I'm gay and if I was created by God, he intentionally created me as I am.

    • Sinbadsailorman profile image

      Donald Beres Jr 5 years ago from Valparaiso, Indiana

      There are Many who would be Guilty of being a Hypocrite. I myself even today still Back slide and defame my brothers and even sisters if you like!

      See Satan for what he is and has Done! For he will soon return as Jesus would appear to Us the World as Our Saviour or God, but he is still playing Games with us.

      Who were reborn into these flesh bodies, Satan has ruled over us for a long, long, long, time. We were once All in All neither Male or Female.

      I believe Satan has been playing a double role ever since "Time" began for us. And when we took upon ourselves these flesh Bodies.

      For we all shall lose them when the true Christ returns. Every Knee shall Bow and every Tongue shall confess. Why? Because it shall melt away from our spirit Body. The one we were Originally created In; by GOD, the Father.

      Satan is a force to be reconciled with! Even though today he resides incarnate with GOD in Heaven! Where he is still accusing Us Night and Day!

      Even Michael the arched Angel would not contend with him over Moses's Bones but said may the Lord rebuke thee!

      Churches of today have stopped feeding the children the very Story they were to tell. It is the one Christ brought forth and the one that is nearly wiped from the bible itself.

      It still exists Although it is not visible with our naked eyes. Our hearts must be deeply involved in the seeking of it! We Must Humble ourselves enough to truly seek it! And do so by asking of the Comforter or the Holy Father's Spirit. Satan is the Father of All lies Satan was the First Murder the first thief and the First who refused to seek repentance and forgiveness.

      This is why we who Fell with him are here as we are! This is why God created and then Separated Adam the Eighth Day Creation.

      The one who GOD Created and was to do what Satan was instructed and awarded to do! To Feed the Children of the truth of GOD! This is why Adam was Created as a Spirit as was Lucifer, so that GOD could walk among them in the Garden of Eden. GOD then Left once again and Divided Adam so he would Not Be alone! And this also would cause the Fallen Lucifer to proceed with his original plan! to become or replace GOD as the father as our God. and this is what Grieved GOD in the Making of Adam and Then Eve they were created to cause an action But not the one Lucifer chose.

      This is what Grieved GOD as Jesus in the garden before His crucifixion that Lucifer would Not Repent! That Jesus would Lose the battle for Satan's repentance. Which would of Heal us all. to the truth of Who GOD is! We are here to decide which Father figure we Believe is our GOD That is all we have ever been here to do!

      And Satan has confused Us all So we will have to wait Until Father returns. we are not straight or gay or whatever created by GOD we were created this way by God the ( DEVIL) Satan, the fallen Lucifer. Peace to all and Good Tidings Seek and you Shall find the truth ask and GOD will direct you to it.

    • christopheranton profile image
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      Christopher Antony Meade 5 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      You are welcome.

    • Ericdierker profile image

      Eric Dierker 5 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      The day I hope is coming when we can look at each other and declare boldly "Your Faith has made you well". We need to be healed and made well. The sickness of non-acceptance and the lack of Love in our hearts, condemns this generation. Condemns us to misery as opposed to happiness. Thanks for this hub it helped me to reopen my heart and discern with Love.

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 5 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Hi Ericdierker.

      Thanks for reading. I think it says somewhere in the New Testament that "judgement belongs to God". We all need to accept that.

    • Ericdierker profile image

      Eric Dierker 5 years ago from Spring Valley, CA. U.S.A.

      Wow no one has commented on this for 8 months? It was an excellent read and at least hopefully gives some folks pause to consider something different than their own views. I just cannot find, and I have tried, a scripture passage from the New Testament that directs me to judge another man. Judge what is right for me maybe, but not what is right for another. Even if some act be evil, I am only to discern the evilness of the act not the heart of the man doing it. I read where I can forgive, but not where I can condemn. Oh well, thanks for the insight.

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 5 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Thanks for those wise words Donnie. You make a lot of sense.

    • Sinbadsailorman profile image

      Donald Beres Jr 5 years ago from Valparaiso, Indiana

      I say this not to place a credit or a defamation on any. You Miss the very point of the reason we are Here Robert. We are all Guilty of SIN of the Original Sin which is choosing Lucifer as god over GOD the Father!

      It matters not to GOD the conditions of the Flesh for it is condemned and shall parish every last bit of it. There is nothing this Flesh can do or has every done, that It will be placed above another's.

      If you shall Judged Judge By that which will Matter! For It Has already been condemn (Your Flesh) In the day that you eat of the fruit of the tree of Both Good and Evil the tree of Knowledge. you shall surely Die the lord was talking to the flesh.

      It is the condition of your (Heart) which is torn between the two bodies (This flesh body and your original Spirit body) that you will be judged by! And No Flesh Not any Save the Lord Jesus Is able to Judge the others Heart.

      Hitler take as an example most notably the cruelest of Flesh beings even his heart we are not allowed to judge least we be judged in the same matters the same manner with the convictions we would choose for this One Hitler GOD is faithful to forgive All their sins here in this world. Save one Satan who is also already condemn.

      In matters of this world we are to only discern and separate from those who are not of Christ's you shall Know them by their fruits Not their choices or their life style by what they do and how they do it unto you.

      People are very easily misdirected by Satan and his children those that chose him over GOD as their god. For this world was a gift to Satan to do a certain task which he did not do!

      And then refused to repent from; he now called by GOD (Satan because there was no longer any truth left in him) was to teach and instruct to bring light or understanding as to who and what GOD the Father The Creator was Is and shall always Be. To Us 1/3 of Heaven

      There is much to still be learn by you and many other as well as myself included as to what is truly happening here in this dimension of time. Time does not exist in the other 2/3 of Heaven.

      Read the Good Book as a Book that you read for yourself by your self let no man not I or any other tell you what it says or means your Father deals directly with you on Judgment Day! Do not get judged for another's crimes. Crimes of the Heart!

      Donnie/ Sinbad the Sailor Man

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 5 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Hi Robert.

      You are right there. I am a homosexual. But that is irrelevant to the truth of what I am saying.

      How could Jesus say, " do unto others as you would have them do unto you", if he condemned a section of society for behaving in accordance with its God- given nature? He made me as I am.

      I thank you for your prayers. All our souls need them. I will pray for you as well, not just for your soul, but that you reach that state of charitable regard for all your fellow humans, that our God desires from us all.

      Happy New Year.

    • profile image

      Robert Ward 5 years ago

      You must be a homosexual,otherwise why would you defame the name of Jesus Christ, by saying that he approves of homosexual behavior? You are very confused, and are mislead in the very worst way. I will pray for your soul.

    • christopheranton profile image
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      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Thanks Donnie for your good and supportive words. I agree with everything you have written.

    • Sinbadsailorman profile image

      Donald Beres Jr 6 years ago from Valparaiso, Indiana

      We Judge Not Least we Be judged and we are Not given in Marriage or Promised in marriage in Heaven and Heaven is were we All originated from in the first place.

      I was steered Away from this topic A few times As I was still unsure of the arguments made by some of those that I deem a little wiser then My self.

      And I am prone to be influenced by some of them still where as I see now I should not be. I have prayed on this matter and today I have received my answers.

      We are neither Jew or Gentile or Male or Female Or Bonded or a Slave in Heaven either so It would be the hearts condition that would cause the Sin if Any would exist from being gay or straight.

      Casual Sex is Not ever a free of lust thing, but it is Not a condemning Thing or a damning Thing. Where as Adultery is a condition of the heart as to breaking a vow and fornication is a sin also for it is only about Lust and self pleasuring ones self.

      True love or committed love is what it is. And I have a much clearer picture of it now. Thanks for the Sharing of this Hub. the union of two souls would still create one flesh.

      Donnie/ Sinbad the Sailor Man

      I commend you on your knowledge And/or your interpretations of the scriptures christopheranton, I guess I was not yet ready to take a stand on this subject before, But I did almost always lean to your side and insightful vision or point of view to the truth of this matter.

      It is the Heart that God Judges and not the Actions of the flesh for it is just a suit of detention. Made for Correction. And It does pass away for all eternity. I totally missed that law of the Hospitality thing you mentioned too.

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Thank you 50 Caliber.

      I think we all need to examine our conciences every day about so many things. It is just that I don't believe that some of the things that people call sins are really a problem.

      I enjoyed your two stories. They made very important points.

    • 50 Caliber profile image

      50 Caliber 6 years ago from Arizona

      christopher, I broke away and went to Wesmans link above[ http://hubpages.com/hub/Christian-B ] and left a second comment as I had read it before and it's pretty much the same as I would leave for this Great Article you have presented. I tried to read all the comments but got burnt out by the few that needed to take their arguments to the forums instead of bitching each other on an article where I feel the comments should be directed at a persons thoughts on the subject that you presented.

      I, personally agree with what you presented to the point of Gay people, I find humor in this debate but please don't take offense, I'm not making fun of you or Gay people, I'm laughing at homophobic self righteous, heterosexual yet kinky behind closed door bible scholars that haven't attended any formal type of education in regard to taking the original Hebrew or other language translation studies. That's like me sans the "self-righteous" portion. I know I'm a sinner, most every day and walk a thin wire when I do a self evaluation of my fulfilling the requirements according to the New Testament Faith based teachings vs Old Testament Law based references that echoed in part to the New Testament. Here is the part that makes me laugh.

      A heterosexual couple leave church on a Sunday, go eat a bite with an other hetero couple then go their separate ways. One couple goes home the dude pops a top on a beer turns the ball game on and his woman gets on the internet and looks at pictures of men that gets her hot and rubs her self off a few times while beer boy in the other room worships his idol, the TV sports channel and won't tolerate any interruption of his favorite team. How would one recognize these two peoples actions? Then:

      The other couple get home, the dude goes into his den and from behind a hiding spot pulls out his leather hood and wrist and ankle cuffs strips off and puts it all on, she's in the master bedroom stripped off and puts on her leather crotchless panties, bra and stockings and pumps, she signals for him he comes in she bends him over the bed ties his ankles to the bed posts and his arms to the top, then straps on a rubber weenie and plows his butt and the kinky sex thing goes on the rest of the after noon. How would the actions be recognized of these two?

      MY opinion based on my understanding of the biblical rules. Couple 1. she had extra marital sex, he worshiped an idol, or idolized an activity above anything else.

      Couple 2. She had a temporary sex change, he enjoyed it and accepted an act that a gay man might partake in, then what ever else went on.

      Both couples would verbally judge and condemn the homosexual life style, who wins on judgement day?

      I dropped out of Main Stream Religions due to hypocrites, I dropped out of "churchianity" for the same reason. People all have planks in their own eyes including me. I admit it, I accept folks just as they are with the exception of allowing them to insult and harass me for being as I am. Full tattoos on my arms[sleeves] 28 inch hair cut LOL, and a 15 year old beard. I wear Levis and t-shirts same as every day, it's all I own and I cannot afford specialty clothing to show up to any church. I tell folks I could cover my arms and tie my hair back and tuck it under my shirt. There I would be dressing for them because an all knowing God would know what I put in the dark, that the scriptures say will all be brought to light and exposed.

      Bottom line, I refuse to dress to please others, I wear what is comfortable for me, I have and do confess sins in prayer daily as every day is a new day and I believe we have or need to renew ourselves daily. My opinion, great article thank you, hope I wasn't to redundant from my first comment, sense then I have read and retract my statement that Homosexual people will in no way see the kingdom of God/Yahweh through their belief in the son/Yahshua and his sacrifice on the cross providing us with the peace and serenity of heart[the Holy Spirit] if we just shut up and listen. It is a life long journey of learning to trust in the promises Jesus made and "No one comes unto Yahweh except through the son,Jesus/Yahshua".

      Thank You again for stirring the pot of thought! dusty/50

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Thanks Druid Dude.

      I think that was the message that Christ was trying to bring.

      The problem with christianity nowadays is that everyone is trying to remake God in their image, rather than the way it is supposed to be, and some of the images are not very nice.

    • Druid Dude profile image

      Druid Dude 6 years ago from West Coast

      Good work. You are like a pitbull, aren't you. You sink your teeth in and don't let go. I agree with your assessment. I also think that the time is right for christianity to reform. I am hetero, not that it makes a difference, but the point is, is that to live up to what the messiah taught, then we must accept all w/o reservations. I myself, am not a christian, because most of them seem to believe that Jesus was God, period. I believe that whatever Jesus was, we all are. Whatever God is, we all are. I'll be watching for your hubs! Peace

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Steefen.

      Thanks for your very useful comment.

      It will be my pleasure to add your book to My Amazon list.

      I will see to it in the next couple of days.

      The second fact you asked about, is the historicity of Jesus, which I note you doubt.

    • profile image

      Steefen 6 years ago

      If one of the two strange facts about Jesus was that he approved homosexual relationships, what is the second fact you are putting forward?

      I would like to thank you for this post/article.

      Please consider adding my book on your amazon.com list. The name of my book is Insights on the Exodus, King David, and Jesus by Steefen. This book is available on the kindle and as a print-on-demand book. As I am redoing the index, the Kindle version which does not have an index is currently the most up-to-date manuscript.

      The Historical Jesus is not possible because Jesus was mythologized; therefore, Jesus has at least one historical component and at least one mythological component.

      Insights on the Exodus, King David, and Jesus / The Greatest Bible Study in Historical Accuracy is one of the best tests of faith at the pillar of historicity not just of Jesus but King David, the 23rd Psalm, the Exodus, and even Adam and Eve.

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Thanks for the comment. Who is Alex Collier?

    • profile image

      tugbo200-5 6 years ago

      Personally,I'll go with beliefs of Alex Collier.

      good hub.

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Thanks Lady Guinevere.

      I will check your link later on.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      What do you not believe it truth in my hub?

      I have another hub that may interest you: http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Myth-Of-Peace-and-Love

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      I shall have to look at that.

      Thank you.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      Where did Jesus say the laws and the kingdom are? Whatever you want in yourself is normal. Everything is WITHIN you---so said Jesus. Now if you want to know why we are in each others lives you can read my hub about what Jesus taught me here:http://hubpages.com/hub/What-I-learned-When-I-Went...

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Fair enough.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 6 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Hey, reality is normal :-)

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Hi Lady G.

      Much the same as you, I guess.

      Take care.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      I have not one thing against the Homosexual community. I have a neighbor who is gay and we get along just fine and his lover is now living with him and that I see as a good thing. He would lose his house if he didn't have a room mate. He also went through some extensive surgeries and so did his lover and them helping each other out is a good thing. What is normal for you Christopher? Normal for me is "whatever floats your boat".

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Hi Austinstar.

      I like Lady G myself, I just don't like that term, as it has often been used as a term of abuse,and I question her definition of "normal".

      But Lady G is fine herself.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 6 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Gosh, you two. Dukeing it out, eh?

      I've had several gay male friends and some gay female friends. My son even thought I was a lesbian at one time. I really don't have any idea how he got that idea as I am definitely heterosexual.

      Now, even I didn't know that "Homo" was offensive. I knew it used to be a few years ago. Then Queer as Folk came out, and the gay initiative went full blast and everyone started jumping on the Rainbow wagon. My friends started calling themselves queer and proud as well as some other names I thought were offensive, but they said it's now the "in" thing.

      People would think they were offending me by calling me names like fatso and lardass or whatever. (My fav was "fatsnatch"). But I think it's just funny. I am what I am and that's all there is to it. I'm at the age now that I don't think you could offend me if you tried.

      So that being said, please forgive me in advance if I slip up and say something stupid as I have been known to speak before engaging my brain.

      I'm sort of trying to defend Lady G here and I don't know why. I just like her.

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Why are you using that "H" word Lady Guinevere? some people, including me find that term offensive.

      And what's with that "normal folk" thing? Am I not normal?

      When I last looked I had the same amount of limbs as most of the rest of humanity, and I don't have horns, or a tail. That seems quite normal to me.

      "but the Catholic Church seems to think that it is OK to be a predator to male children. Is that "odd"? I think so!"

      If your theology is so weak that you have to resort to such cheap and inaccurate slanders as the above in order to try to get your points across, perhaps you might be more at home posting on a different hub, that is if you can find a one on how to libel your betters.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      No, I don't and am not the only one who has "odd" ideas about the Catholic Church. You just seem to be trying to prove something that scares the begeebees out of normal folk. No Homo's aren't perverts but the Catholic Church seems to think that it is OK to be a predator to male children. Is that "odd"? I think so!

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Lady Guinevere.

      You appear to be mixing up a native of Nazereth, which was a town in Galilee, with Nazarenes, which was a sect within Judaism.

      You do also really appear to have odd ideas about The Catholic Church.

      Just because you disagree with them, does not mean that they are not telling the truth, but since the legitimacy and the authority of The Catholic Church was not the original subject of my article, I will not be saying any more on it here.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      Mark 1:9-45 (Young's Literal Translation)

      9And it came to pass in those days, Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John at the Jordan;

      I do not have any ODD ideas about the Catholic Church. I went through RCIA and then after several years decided it wasn't for me and I hear the lies they tell right in the Mass.

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Lady Guinevere.

      Jesus was hardly a nazarene, because they did not eat meat, and there is no evidence from the bible that Jesus didn't.

      And nobody ever indoctrinated me, or told me what to read.

      You seem to have some rather strangely odd ideas about the catholic church, and about St Thomas Aquinas.

      I will look at your links sometime when I have a bit of time, thats if my bishop will allow me.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      I went to your site and it was a catholic rebuttal to someone else. It talked about Thomas Awuinas and yes I know his ways and what he was really called. His parent kidnapped him form one of the monestaries that he was attending because he was known as The Dog of the Catholic Church. He was to be trained as a Lay Dominican. Here is one site about him: http://philosophy.lander.edu/intro/aquinas.shtml

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      This is from the site:

      Luke-Acts and Revelation were written in Allegory in order to preserve the true story of Jesus the Nazarene and Mary Magdalene.

      The Nazarenes were under attack and feared total destruction of their doctrine. Allegory was their only hope of saving their history

      from destruction at the hands of their enemy, Saulus, aka "The Apostle Paul. "

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      It is when you have been indoctrinated since birth into what they want you to read and what they don't want you to read. If you read your Doctrines in those somewhere it says tht they are to keep the clergy and the peaople n the dak at all costs. Now I had that on my favorites list and had posted it on a social netowrk that is no longer and have lost it since, but I can assure you that it is there in the doctrine. Why would they want to do that? Is that what Jesus said? Have you read it yet. Have you read any of the gospels that were not included in the Bible that you have?

      Jesus was teaching "THE WAY" and so was Peter. They were Nazarenes which one sect is the essenes, or vice versa, and that is how Jesus was brought up.

      Here you find somehting contrary to other popular belief to prove your sexuality as being OK by Jesus, but you are bound and determined to keep mine as gnostic and that is bad in your churche's eyes and the rest of the world who claims that the gnostic is pagan and wrong and therefre I am wrong period.

      When you read some of those other gospels you will see why they were not included. Until ten you can gesture all you want because it is the doctrine of your church that wants to keep their people in the dark at all costs. "ALL COSTS"! What is so precious as to keep people away from it and why so secretively?

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Lady Guinevere. Read the entire article, if you have time.

      Jesus wasn't an Essene. The Essenes were the people who left The Dead Sea scrolls.

      They had nothing to do with Jesus.

      It appears to me that I am RC also.

      Is that a problem?

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      DREAM ON.

      Thanks for visiting, and Thank you for your supportive comments.

      Have a great day yourself.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      nowhere did your quote speak about women having soul's. It stated that they may or nay have not been homo.

      Jesus was an essene which is gnostic and I will leave it at that.

      It appears to me that you are RC.

    • DREAM ON profile image

      DREAM ON 6 years ago

      Your hub makes us think a little more and the facts were very well presented.Thank you for expressing your thoughts for others to see and learn more.Have a great day.

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      You talk about the council of Nicaea, and whether women have souls.

      I'll paste this excerpt and then the link so you can read the entire article.

      You really shouldn't base your beliefs on just what people told you.

      But when one traces the rumor back to its source, one finds that someone, somewhere, made a very big mistake. The actual historical event which became the basis for this rumor did not happen at the Council of Nicea or any other ecumenical council in Church history, but in a local Synod in France in 585 AD. The account can be found in the book The History of the Franks by Gregory of Tours (which I have read; you can probably get it from an academic library or through Interloan at a public library).

      This is what really happened:

      During a break between sessions at the Synod, one of the bishops there expressed to his fellow bishops his personal belief that the Latin word homo (mankind) does not include women. Immediately every other bishop present objected to his statement, pointing out that the Vulgate (the Latin translation of the Scriptures used at that time) uses the word homo to refer to both Adam and Eve in Genesis 5:2.

      That verse reads: "(God) created them male and female; and blessed them: and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created" (Douay Version, emphasis mine). Adam, besides being the proper name applied to the father of our race, is the Hebrew word for "mankind" or "humanity" (as opposed to iysh, which refers to a male human being). When Saint Jerome translated the Bible into Latin he rendered Adam here with the Latin equivalent Homo. And the bishops at the French Synod used his Vulgate translation to prove their fellow bishop wrong in stating that women are not included in the word homo.

      Having sufficiently refuted that notion, the discussion ended.

      http://home.earthlink.net/~mysticalrose/object.htm...

      If you want to be a Gnostic, that is your affair, but I am afraid it is not for me.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      You assume wrong. Don't you ever wonder what is so bad in those other gospels to deem it necessary to put the fear of the Almighty in one's heart? Do you ever wonder why just a small amount of MEN decied what went into and was ommitted from the Bble that we have today? Have you ever read about the Council of Nicea and what they considered truth? How about the other Councils, do you know what was said in them and what was going on at the times of them deciding what went into the books? Isn't it for each person to decide for themsleves what Jesus was speaking about? Jesus said that he put the laws in the minds of men andin the hearts too. What does that say to you?

      Someone told me that in the Council of Niceas they had to decide on weather woman had a soul? Does that surprise you and doesn't it give you an idea why women are treated the way they are to this very day?

      Lots to think about......hmmmm don't you think....or do you also go by men's words?

      Jesus stated that The Kingdom and Everything is WITHIN YOU and he didn't say any books either. By the way in the bible it is stated that not everything and not all of the miracles that Jesus performed or what he ever taught is in the book.

      We each have our own brains and each is slightly different in it's thinking then another. Ever wonder why that is? If we were all to believe and act the same way, what purpose would that serve and why would we all be different?

      Just think about it all.

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Lady Guinevere.

      If I am reading you correctly you seem to be getting a lot of your information about Jesus from The Gnostic Gospels, i,e The Gospel of Mary, The Gospel of Thomas etc.

      If that is the case you really ought to do some research into these books, especially if you want to "test the spirits". These books were left out of the canon because they were written a long time after the accepted gospels, probably around the end of the second century, or the beginning of the third. They were written to give a quasi pagan greek spin on the account of Jesus, and have little to do with the actual Jesus as portrayed in the approved gospels. I would be very careful, if I were you, about taking my beliefs from such dubious sources.

      You would be putting yourself on a very dangerous path.

      Cagsil.

      Apology accepted. No offence taken. Have a brilliant day.

    • Cagsil profile image

      Cagsil 6 years ago from USA or America

      My apologizes Christophanton. I was speaking with Lady, not you. But, it's now irrelevant. Good day.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      Oh I read the whole chapter in the Young's Litteral translation. If someone had that story today they would also be despised and sought to be put away.So he suffered just like Jesus did--all except being put on the cross. Jesus said to test the spirits and so I do. I still go with the teachings of Jesus--especially what was not included in the Bible.

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Lady Guinevere.

      I,m pasting one of the relevant passages.

      This is from The Acts of The Apostles.

      As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

      "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.

      "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

      The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

      – Acts 9:3-9, New International Version

      There is plenty more in The Bible as well.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      So you don't have an ansswer as to who wrote about Paul's experience? Were there witnesses or was it just Paul that told people?

      We can agree to disagree.

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Lady Guinevere.

      Let us agree to disagree on this, as we are just going round in circles.

      God Bless you, and thanks for your valued contributions.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      Jesus didn't say anything about women's heads being covered or not. If Paul had a vision then you could say the same about all those that are in jail that have turned to Jesus....hmmmmm? No, I would rathr go with someone who is and always is honest and that is Jesus. Who wrote about the vision that Paul had on the road?

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      OmNaser.

      Thanks for reading, but I think I would prefer to stick with christianity at the moment.

    • OmNaser profile image

      OmNaser 6 years ago from kuwait

      Read about Jesus based on the Qur'an

      http://prophet-isa.blogspot.com/

      I believe In Jesus and Im a muslim. But I believe he was a prophet. Give it a try and read our version of Jesus.

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Lady Guinevere.

      So exactly what did happen on the road to Damascus then?

      And I am not saying that we should follow Satan.

      If you believe, as I do, that St Paul was an apostle of God, and his writings were inspired, of course you should follow him. But you should use discernment, and realise that it is necessary to understand what he is saying in the context of the time he was saying it.

      For instance he says that a woman should keep her head covered in church, or in assembly.

      This was because in the first century only prostitutes had their hair uncovered, so it was important that women in church kept their heads covered, otherwise the more conservatives amongst the congregations might accuse them of prostitution.

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Cagsil.

      It may have escaped your notice, but I am the Hub author.

      Lady Guinevere.

      I shall answer you in the morning, if that is OK, and if Cagsil has no objection. It is one a.m here at the moment, and I need to go to bed.

      Just talk amongst yourselves.

    • Cagsil profile image

      Cagsil 6 years ago from USA or America

      Hey Christopher, I find it truly appalling that YOU are addressing my posts, which have NOTHING to do with you. My posts are for the hub author. The fact that you bring yourself into my conversation with Lady is absurd. Man, learn your place in this world would you.

    • Cagsil profile image

      Cagsil 6 years ago from USA or America

      Hey Lady, that's because the church has the mentality of- "do as I say, not as I do". The church is the ones who began this myth of "Christ". So, it would make sense that they also manipulated the scripture to suit themselves.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      So we should follow anyone who talks about anyone, just by virtue--even Satan because we talk about them? Satan and Jesus talked all the tie, while Pauls never met Jesus in person ever. That certainly sounds like what you are saying.

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Hi Lady Guinevere.

      He didn't, but by virtue of any one of us talking about Him, and someone agreeing with the opinion expressed, that person is following to Jesus.

      It is the same with St Paul. People are not following St Paul because of his personal opinions, they are only following through him to Christ.

      Hi lone77star.

      Thanks for your very generous comments. I think you may have a very good point there, although I don't think that God expects us to lose all sense of self. He just wants us to build on our positive aspects, and share them with the world.

      Cagsil.

      Thanks for looking in. I think that Jesus did want people to follow him.

      Lady G.

      I don't think that Jesus hated the church/temple establishment.

      He hated the corruption that had been allowed to creep in. That is why he cleared out the money changers.

      I don't really know of any christian churches where they worship images. In Catholicism, and Orthodoxy they venerate the people that the images represent, but worship is different, and that is reserved for God.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      Hey Cagsil, You are right and he hated the chruch establishment too. He was totally against anything traditional--as n oral traditions or written ones and he didn't like any money changing in the churches or any type of of image worship. Yet you see all of these being taught in the chruch. They simply do not read anything that Jesus supposedly said. I question that all the time and they continue to ignore it because they would rather go with a deceiver than Jesus. Why?

    • Cagsil profile image

      Cagsil 6 years ago from USA or America

      Hey Lady Guinevere, I just saw this on the feed and I wanted to point out that Jesus didn't want anyone following anyone. None! No idols, no nothing. ;)

    • lone77star profile image

      Rod Martin Jr 6 years ago from Cebu, Philippines

      Christopher, outstanding!

      God is love, and yet there is so much ego in the world. Ego is us vs. them, and I'm right and you're not. It is also, "Look how generous I am." Could ego be Satan? Could ego be the self which needs to die before we can gain everlasting life? Those moments when I felt closest to God, ego was nowhere to be found.

      I need to follow. I don't want to miss another scrap of your scholarly work. Thank you!

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      Did Jesus ever tell his followers to follow anyone else but him and his father?

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Thanks Austinstar.

      That is a problem we all suffer from.

      It is always so much easier to accept the things we are told, than to look at the world, and make up our own minds.

      I think you do pretty well though.

    • Austinstar profile image

      Lela 6 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      "I hope your growing distaste is not starting to creep in my direction, as I feel that my time on hubpages has been very much enriched by my exposure to your very interesting views."

      Definitely not, Christopher! I think you are one really good intelligent person. You have enriched my life also. I pay attention to everyone's views, some of them disgust me and some of them make me smile!

      I think I may be splitting hairs on the Christian identity. I really mean that if you call yourself a "Christian" I am automatically going to assign you to a "category" of people. Then I am further going to try to see you as a human being and not a "Christian" because I have internally developed a distaste for "Christians". That's my shortcoming and not yours. It's my nature and I have to fight it constantly.

      Our brains have been hardwired from birth to think in certain patterns and it is a struggle to develop a thinking brain and not a brain that just spews forth "learned" material. Yes, even for me :-)

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Hi Claire.

      I,m sorry that you feel that robust debating is bullying.

      I can see now that you have your own demons to battle with.

      All I can do is pray for you, that you are able with God's help to overcome the stresses your life is subject to.

      If you can do the same for me that would be nice.

      Take care.

      Nice to have known you.

    • Claire Evans profile image

      Claire Evans 6 years ago from South Africa

      @Christopher,

      Jesus died for our sins but that doesn't mean it gives us carte blanche to carry on sinning. We have to put Jesus' will in front of our own. However, you insist that Jesus condoned homosexuality when you know your case is weak.

      "When you say that Satan has tainted creation, are you saying that some of us were created by the Devil?"

      Don't you know the difference between tainting creation and creation itself? God created us but Satan has somehow manipulated the makeup of us all. That is why we have the desire to sin. If we weren't tainted by Satan, then why do we sin? Did God make us with the desire to sin?

      "If Satan did taint creation, he did so by encouraging bigotry and narrow minded prejudice to creep in and pollute a movement that was set up by God to spread love throughout the world."

      Is the God movement about doing whatever the hell one likes? I have no problem with people being gay. What I do have a problem with is people claiming as a fact that Jesus condoned homosexuality when it is wrong. I want to reiterate something. Jesus came to bring a sword. That means He caused division on this earth because of the truth. I think this is the reason why He was accused of being possessed by the spirit of Beelzebub, which you are kind of implying I am.

      "You say you "feel for me". You don't need to. I exhult in my sexuality, and I exhult in God Who made me as I am."

      Who said God made you the way you are? God certainly wasn't responsible for my alcoholic genetics. He didn't make me that way. That was Satan tainting me. If God made me the way I am as someone who sins, then why stop sinning? I'm going to indulge in sin because God made me that way.

      "I utterly reject the notion that my homosexual way of life is sinful, or that it is in any way displeasing to God."

      Do Satan and God want the same thing? You can reject the notion all you like because it is comforting to you. It's not convenient for you to think otherwise. However, you can't put words in Jesus' mouth. No way did He condone homosexuality and deep down you know it. Why else are you protesting so much?

      "The attitude that you promote is the attitude that has lead to the death by suicide of many good young people."

      You are a bully, you know that? I don't condemn homosexuals. I have never done so. I have always stood up for homosexuals when people say things like they should be crucified. I draw the line when they say Jesus condones the homosexual way of life, though. You can't see the difference, can you? You can't seem to take any responsibility. When my mother said I had to clean up my act and stop abusing alcohol, should I have accused her of making me feel guilty and commit suicide?

      "You may not personally be driving them to an early death, but the false notion that it is sinful to engage in homosexual relations is one of the principal causes behind this tragic waste of life."

      I'm sorry, but Jesus didn't spare people's feelings. Imagine if He said, "Well, look Mary, I know you depend on prostitution to make a living, so I'm not going to say prostitution is wrong because I don't want you to feel guilty and commit suicide." He said, "Go sin no more."

      "It also gives comfort to those who feel it is a good idea to go out and beat gays up."

      Those people are wrong and you know it. They have absolutely no excuse to do so for they aren't sin-free.

      "The hardest part of being a christian in the twenty first century is to have to put up with the jibes and the sticks, literally and metaphorically, that get thrown at one from those who are supposed to be one's brothers and sisters in Christ."

      Jesus did much jibing. Look at John 4:17. He draw to the attention of the Samaritan woman that she was committing adultery. I suppose out of guilt she should commit suicide.

      "Christianity will never be a properly grown up religion until it gets rid of the totally unChristlike attitude that it adapts towards those who don't subscribe to the ridiculously narrow sexual mores it promotes."

      Then Christ was totally unChrist-like.

      "One final thing. You say you yourself are celibate. Is this a lifelong vocation, or are you just waiting for the right man to come along? I hope he does for you."

      Of course it is not a lifelong vocation. I'm waiting for the right man.

      Christopher, you can live the life you want. I just thought it was good for you to be challenged like it is for all of us. Knowing all sides of the argument enables us to make more informed choices.

      @Austinstar

      "Clair, don't forget that God also created Satan according to the bible. (God created all things in heaven and on earth) I don't know the chapter/verse, but I'm sure Lady G does."

      Absolute nonsense. The Bible isn't infallible. If God created Satan, then I'd tell Him to get knotted. Jesus said that Satan was a liar and murderer from the start. Why would God create that sort of creature? Genesis was plagiarised from ancient pagan sources.

      "You argue over the meanings of single words like 'pais' and 'duolo'. You cannot see the forest for the trees."

      Yes, it is called a debate.

      "I like 50 Cal's definition better - following the teachings of Jesus. Drop the entire old testament, and while you're at it, drop everything in the new testament except the teachings of Jesus and I might like you a lot more."

      What about the teachings of Jesus that said He came to bring a sword? If only He stopped pointing out sin!

      I'm not here to be liked. If I was liked by everybody, there would be something wrong with me.

      Now, I have exhausted my argument. I have said everything I wished to say so I wish to end this debate here. I don't want someone to commit suicide because of me.

      I'm not coming back here so please don't respond.

    • christopheranton profile image
      Author

      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      The most critical thing is that you do follow Jesus Lady Guinevere.

      But the easiest way of doing that is through the messages in The New Testament, and that includes The Epistles of St Paul.

      Best wishes in your journey.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      I will still follow Jesus and not Paul. Makes no sense when we are asked to follow him and he only get 4 books in the bible and Paul gets all the rest. All his other books about him have been told that they are heresies. THAT makes no sense. There is some political play and some power of the people.

      Peter was set as the foundation of the church by Jesus and yet Paul gets it all---something is just not right with that.

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      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Lady Guinevere. St Paul on homosexuality is a complicated subject, that I haven't time to go into in deapth here.

      Essentially what he was condemming was Pagan Temple prostitition, and heterosexual men that were going with priests in the temples, as a way of gaining favour with the pagan gods. He wasn't condemming homosexuality as such.

      It is the same attitude that prevails in the Leviticus rules in The Old Testament. People were commanded not to do the things of Egypt and Canaan. This was because homosexual sex was part of the worship in the temples of both of those countries.

      That is it basically. There is a lot more to be said on the subject, but I might save it for a separate hub.

      Thanks again.

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      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Hi Lady Guinevere.

      The idea that we are all part of one great energy field is a bit too Gnostic for my tastes, still I think we should agree to differ on that one.

      I don't recall any instances in The Bible when Satan was considered Female.

      I expect, as a spirit, he is essentially sexless.

      Thanks for visiting. Your contributions are always valued.

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      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      Looking back at where you got your information in the books that were written from Jesus on homosexuality and it stated that it was not a problem and then taking someone elses comments that were written by Paul and they were contradictory of what Jesus taught, can't you see the differences there about homosexuality. Paul was strictly against it and Jesus didn't pay any mind to it. Those Christians like you have been told---yes TOLD that Paul's teaching is right with Jesus and it is apparent that they are not.

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      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Hi Austinstar.

      Shooting from the hip, as always.

      It is one of the things I like about you most.

      As you may have already guessed I am a christian, but it sometimes takes all my faith to strenghten me in dealing with many of my fellow believers.

      Still I would rather fight the good fight from within than leave. But that's me.

      I hope your growing distaste is not starting to creep in my direction, as I feel that my time on hubpages has been very much enriched by my exposure to your very interesting views.

    • Lady Guinevere profile image

      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      I still go with Austinstar about Jesus. When I gave those verses from Mark, they were dismissed and Paul's teaching to his place. They were also the opposite in their teaching. Paul was born and brought up a roman soldier, he was taught to be in infiltrator. How many people do you know that is in the spy field turn over in one night---NOBODY! If it is ROTE (brainwashed) into them from birth they cannot change overnight, just lke that.

      Have you actually seen Satan? What does he look like and why is it a HE when in the Bible he was the Angel of Beauty and thought to be Feminine. Now it is a HE and it has a physical body? It was told in the Bible that he was an Angel which do not have physical bodies.

      Satan is God's friend. Does that shock you? I bet it does. Read Job and really take all religion out of it when you do and see what God and Satan did to Job and how they planned things for him to test him to bring him closer to GOD. Oh and God and Energy are the same things.

      everything is made up of energy. Everything! Lets have a look at the similarities between God and Energy-

      Can neither be created nor be destroyed.

      Has ever been and will ever be.

      Is the fundamental creation

      Exists everywhere

      Can be seen in various forms

      Which means that EVERYTHING is part of EVERYTHING connected and all the same.

      About Saints and the One True God: When Abraham or even much earlier in Egypt when the One God came into theology and religion came to be the Saint's replaced the many God's. Look the them and compare their principles and duties of each. There is a god that did the same thing in the polytheistic/pagan or what-have-you beliefs.

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      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Hi Lady Guinevere.

      I,m afraid that I am one of those who believes that Satan is a real entity, It's just that the people who are under his sway are not the people generally supposed to be.

      Of course Jesus was not a christian, as He did not follow Himself.

      I feel that we should follow St Paul and Jesus. They are both of great importance, but we should be really sure of the meanings of what they say, before we start quoting either.

      St Paul has been given rather a bad press in recent times by those who want to ascribe opinions to him that are not necessarily those actually written in his Epistles, and he has suffered quite a lot from deliberate mistranslation, or from people who didn't understand the context in which he was sometimes writing.

      He was a great man, and a great saint. It is just that we need to be a bit careful when we try to interpret some of his writings.

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      Lela 6 years ago from Somewhere in the universe

      Clair, don't forget that God also created Satan according to the bible. (God created all things in heaven and on earth) I don't know the chapter/verse, but I'm sure Lady G does.

      Personally, I'm not a Christian and the more I get to know Christians, the less I want to know them. I'm actually developing a distaste for anyone who tells me they are Christian. The reason for that is that they lie to themselves as well as to me. Christianity has been so corrupted from its roots that there is no knowing what what was meant in the ancient book you all believe in.

      You argue over the meanings of single words like 'pais' and 'duolo'. You cannot see the forest for the trees.

      I like 50 Cal's definition better - following the teachings of Jesus. Drop the entire old testament, and while you're at it, drop everything in the new testament except the teachings of Jesus and I might like you a lot more.

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      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Claire. I will answer your last question first.

      I am a christian because I believe that Jesus Christ is God, and that He came down from Heaven and died for my sins, and the sins of all mankind, that He raised Himself from the dead, and that He holds out the promise of everlasting life to me, if I love Him back, and show that love by doing my best to love all other people for His sake.

      I hope that is some help to you.

      When you say that Satan has tainted creation, are you saying that some of us were created by the Devil?

      If Satan did taint creation, he did so by encouraging bigotry and narrow minded prejudice to creep in and pollute a movement that was set up by God to spread love throughout the world.

      You say you "feel for me". You don't need to. I exhult in my sexuality, and I exhult in God Who made me as I am.

      I utterly reject the notion that my homosexual way of life is sinful, or that it is in any way displeasing to God.

      The attitude that you promote is the attitude that has lead to the death by suicide of many good young people.

      You may not personally be driving them to an early death, but the false notion that it is sinful to engage in homosexual relations is one of the principal causes behind this tragic waste of life.

      It also gives comfort to those who feel it is a good idea to go out and beat gays up.

      The hardest part of being a christian in the twenty first century is to have to put up with the jibes and the sticks, literally and metaphorically, that get thrown at one from those who are supposed to be one's brothers and sisters in Christ.

      Christianity will never be a properly grown up religion until it gets rid of the totally unChristlike attitude that it adapts towards those who don't subscribe to the ridiculously narrow sexual mores it promotes.

      One final thing. You say you yourself are celibate. Is this a lifelong vocation, or are you just waiting for the right man to come along? I hope he does for you.

      But please don't expect me to let my "right man" pass by because I am supposed to be celibate. Because it aint going to happen sister.

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      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      There is no such thing as Satan as a real enitity. It's only in your head. Jesus was not a Christian and today's Christians don't listen to the words of Jesus, they listen to Paul and puts Jesus words out of focus.

      Not everyone is a sinner and Jesus said that and you deny it, but it is right there. Who is telling yu that Jesus's words are not to be listened too?????

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      Claire Evans 6 years ago from South Africa

      Why do you only the address the parts of my argument convenient to you?

      I'm afraid it is you who doesn't get it.

      You happen to be taking Satan out of the equation. Would God create sinful people? A just and perfect one? No, He would not. Are there sinful people? Yes, all of us. So what's going on? Well, the devil has tainted creation. Yes, he has and that is why we have sinful desires. Why would God make me in such a way that I had the tendency to abuse alcohol? Why are we so weak by nature that evil appeals to us?

      If Satan manipulated mankind to such an extent that they'd desire to have sex with members of their own sex, then it would explain why homosexuality is so important in Satanism. I have heard testimony from occult defectors that they commit homosexual acts because it offends God.

      "If you were told, that you were obliged to live a life of celibacy, because it was inherently wrong for you to have sex with a man, even if you were married, how would you feel?"

      First of all I'd ask you if Jesus condemns heterosexual sex within marriage? No, because the Bible says He wants marriage between a man and a women, not between a man and a man or between a woman with a woman.

      And even though it is hard for a person, homosexual or not, to abstain from sex, it doesn't give someone the right to make false claims about Jesus just to rest their conscience.

      "Do you feel that a just God would put such strictures on how you live your life?"

      Nobody claimed the Christian life is easy. Jesus demands a high standard of living of us. You can't have God on your own terms. Jesus led a celibate life because He wasn't put on this earth to marry. Would a just God put restrictions on Jesus? Seems so. If you cannot aspire to be like Jesus, then perhaps you shouldn't be a Christian at all. And I do put my money where my mouth is. I am celibate myself. There have also been cases whereby homosexuals have claimed they have turned straight because of the power of God. Whatever our circumstances may be, we all have CHOICES.

      "If you answer no, why do you feel that God, Who is supposed to be equally just to me, would condemm me to a lifetime of sexlessness. There are up to twenty percent of His human creations in the same situation."

      A nymphomaniac could claim she was born with the desire to have sex all the time. Should she feel restricted because promiscuity is wrong?

      Look, I really feel for you. It isn't easy to abstain from sex and feel like you are doing something wrong everytime you have sex. I personally don't know what is it like to be in your situation but what you do is between you and God. I don't judge you. It is not your homosexuality I am speaking out against; it is your claim that Jesus condoned it where you have no proof He did.

      "I don't believe God made me as I am, and then expected me to deny expression to the nature that He endowed me with."

      I could say to myself I don't believe God make me as I am, a sinner by birth, just to deprive me of sin.

      "I don't feel that he expected the centurion, or his "servant" to do so either."

      How can I comment on this when you ignored my argument in my latest comment on why the centurion wasn't gay? If the Christian life is too hard for you, abandon it.

      I'm going to ask you a very important question that may help me to understand better: Why are you a Christian?

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      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Thanks 50 Caliber for your well thought out, and interesting comment.

      I agree with you.

      It is not for us to judge, but to give example.

      You are a wise man.

    • 50 Caliber profile image

      50 Caliber 6 years ago from Arizona

      I got bored half way through the comments and slid on down here.

      Jesus hung out with the needful, that had an open mind and would listen to his message " the greatest of all, being love", treating one another as we would ourselves.

      To hate a Homosexual, would be not of his nature and should not be of ours. I lived in California where many of them seem to congregate. I have found out that men I knew were gay, so as a "christian" was a man I knew to be fair and trustworthy at a job or fellow that hunted or fished with me, now to be hated and cast away from my friend list? NO, I'll never believe that yes should be the answer.

      I do believe that scripture provides statements in regard to this as "in no ways shall see the Kingdom of God". Do I believe that? Yes. I don't see it different than being a habitual liar, or thief, or a multitude of things listed as sins. They all have a ranking of the same, while society puts a color of difference to the significance of "Murder" over "stealing" the scripture does not.

      A christian is to be one of kindness and accepting of those who will hear them, and those who will not are directed to knock the sand of their sandals on their way out. Like don't waste your time with them. Leave them to wallow in the wickedness until they become teachable.

      Teaching is the core of "duty" as a follower of Christ, if they are willing to listen, let them listen, and maybe they will hear what compels them to try and do better. Maybe you'll see a miracle of awakening.

      I had one and was baptized one day, then the next day I most likely, if not the same day, sinned in one way or another. Get me in the company of crude speakers and most likely you'll hear just what kind of vocabulary I have, way different than that of the one I would use if I was inside a church or in front of folks that I don't know.

      It's just this, we are not charged with condemning our fellow people, we are charged with setting an example and some are teachers, none are judges and I have stepped aside of mainstream religion and the word "christian" in favor of "follower of Christ and his teachings" not least, a failure at that most days, but I am allowed to repent, and that was the biggest miracle of "Christ" his payment for all sins yet to come, and everyone who is alive can repent right up to their last breath, after that, you've died in or out of sin and that is what I will believe until then.

      I thank you for writing an article that brings us to thought on an interesting topic, 50

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      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Claire.

      You still don't get it I,m afraid.

      If God is The Creator of all men, and He is Omnipotent and infinetly just, would He create a category of human that was handicapped from birth by a sexuality that was not allowed to be expressed?

      The modern understanding of homosexuality is that it is something that people are born with. It is not a learned behaviour. I know that much from personal experience.

      I am assuming that you are a heterosexual woman.

      If you were told, that you were obliged to live a life of celibacy, because it was inherently wrong for you to have sex with a man, even if you were married, how would you feel?

      Do you feel that a just God would put such strictures on how you live your life?

      If you answer no, why do you feel that God, Who is supposed to be equally just to me, would condemm me to a lifetime of sexlessness. There are up to twenty percent of His human creations in the same situation.

      I don't believe God made me as I am, and then expected me to deny expression to the nature that He endowed me with.

      I don't feel that he expected the centurion, or his "servant" to do so either.

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      Claire Evans 6 years ago from South Africa

      It is not for me to condemn anyone to hell no matter how much I disapprove of something. So just because someone sins I must condemn them to hell or else I'm conceding no sin exists? As a sinner, I'd certainly not like someone to condemn me to hell because they don't know what is in my heart.

      And, yes, there are many consequences to sins. We are all to held accountable for it. I know that if Jesus doesn't condone something, it is not to spoil anyone's fun but because it is in our best interest.

      You do a lot of assuming, I think you know that. You somehow think that all Roman centurions were homosexual and that all of them couldn't control themselves because they didn't marry and thus had to have sex with young boys.

      I think if the Roman centurion was gay and had a servant lover, the gospel of Luke would also have referred to the servant as pais and not doulo. Since Judaism was very much against homosexuality, as stipulated in their laws, it would have been reported in the gospel that the man was homosexual and that people would have urged Jesus to condemn him, but no one said anything. The message of the whole scripture was the centurion's faith and not about any sort of homosexuality. Why are people turning it into a homosexual issue when it has nothing to do with the scripture?

      Greeks were known to have orgies and were obviously idolators. Now because no mention of these things are made by Jesus in the healing of the servant story, does it mean He condoned it? Why didn't He call him a filthy pagan? Obviously Jesus didn't approve of paganism but pagan worship had nothing to do with the centurion's faith.

      As much as Jesus had compassion on us sinners, make no mistake in thinking He condones any of it.

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      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Hi Claire.

      If you don't condemm homosexuals to Hell what is the problem? Obviously by your standards there is no sin, because there is no consequence.

      You are correct in Luke 1:69, and I was incorrect in saying the word "pais" did not appear in the NT except in the centurion story, but words must be understood in the context in which they are written.

      In Luke 1:69 David is obviously a special servant of God, but that still does not take away from the fact that in the greek of the time, the word "pais" usually referred to "same sex lover", and considering the restrictive way that roman soldiers had to operate at the time, (not being allowed to marry), it is more than reasonable to assume that the servant was his lover.

      I reckon, that if Jesus was telling the parable of The Pharisee and The Publican today, homosexuals would be taking the part of The Publican. I'll leave it up to you to decide who The Pharisee should be.

    • Claire Evans profile image

      Claire Evans 6 years ago from South Africa

      "Claire. If you set the same standards for alchohol as you set for gay sex nobody would be ever allowed to have a drink."

      Don't be silly. It is the abuse of alcohol that is wrong, not merely drinking it. There's no such thing as gay sex in moderation which makes it right.

      "You are treating homosexuals with disrespect, when you say gay sex is always sinful, and, whether it makes you uncomfortable or not, the word "pais" as used in the account of the centurion, does mean "same sex lover"."

      Am I treating prostitutes with disrespect when I say prostitution is wrong? Respecting someone doesn't mean you have to agree with them. Disrespecting gays would mean I'd condemn them to hell which I don't.

      The term "pais" can be interpreted in many ways. It is translated as son or servant, or a servant that is much younger, in other words, a child servant. It is derived from the Hebrew word ebed, meaning slave or servant. Luke refers to doulo, not pais, which obviously means servant. Doesn't it occur to you the centurion may have viewed his servant so dear that he was like a son to him? It was the centurion's compassion and faith Jesus was commending, not his homosexuality, if one is to argue from that point of view.

      Pais is also mentioned 24 other times in the Bible. Are they all references to homosexuality? One example is Luke 1:69 whereby David is referred to as pais, i.e, a servant of the Lord. Was David God's gay lover?

      The evidence all points to the centurion having a servant that he didn't engage in sexual relations with. It is clear in Matthew 8 that the centurion loves the servant so much because he is so faithful and loyal and obedient. He didn't say he loved him to much because he was his lover.

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      Debra Allen 6 years ago from West By God

      Does anyone notice that the bible doesn't say anything about women laying with other women? Interesting hmmmm.

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      Christopher Antony Meade 6 years ago from Gillingham Kent. United Kingdom

      Lady Guinevere.

      Thanks again.