What if?

1. 65

   aka-djposted 11 years ago

   Atheist experiences the power of God, after he asks, "what if??"
   
   http://youtu.be/s0F5F4hp3mY

   replyreport
   1. 94

      wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I didn't bother to watch the entire thing, but the main thrust of what I DID see is that a NDE is "medically inexplicable" or just "inexplicable".
      
      Is that why you determine that it is the "power of God" operating?  Because you have no other explanation, and so will create one that agrees with your philosophy?
      
      This is perhaps the greatest logical failure of the believer (in spite of the video claiming it is a logical reason) - "I don't understand the reason, you don't understand the reason, no one really understands the reason (especially if we deny any other possibilities) so it has to be God".  A complete and total failure of logic - ignorance does not prove anything except ignorance.  Declaring ignorance of any other reason does not lead to a logical conclusion of God - it leads to the conclusion that we don't know.  Nothing else.

      replyreport
      1. 65

         aka-djposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         The video in fact asks you watch to the end.
         
         You probably missed the main part.
         
         I can't make you watch it, but then you are also guilty of doing what you accuse me of.
         Feeding your own bias.

         replyreport
         1. 65

            heatblast92posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Well, the video's certainly not winning an Emmy Award any time from now, so don't blame him.

            replyreport
         2. 59

            A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            LOL! You mean at the end where they state that Hell will be filled with atheists and that we MUST believe in the Bible... or else. Hilarious.

            replyreport
            1. 71

               aguasilverposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Yep, wouldn't that be hilarious, if it's correct, I guess the laughter and joy amongst the inhabitants would be extreme!

               replyreport
               1. 59

                  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes, while the rest of them extremely laugh in Islamic hell.

                  replyreport
            2. 52

               tosaveposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Yes that is true, though atheists would not be the only ones there.

               replyreport
      2. 71

         aguasilverposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Yeah, Having just watched the WHOLE video, I can easily see why you clicked out early.
         
         Pity.

         replyreport
   2. 71

      Titen-Sxullposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      The power of which God? There are many deities out there and there are many claims, throughout the millenia, of those who interact with said gods. Odysseus wrestled with the cyclopean son of Poseidon, Athena, a goddess, directly helps and interacts with him on several occasions. Mythology, and indeed human history, is filled with encounters with the gods or the power thereof.
      
      Now to the video itself. This man acts as if atheists NEVER ask "what if" they are wrong. As a former Christian (former creationist no less) it would be absurd to suggest that I, or the vast majority of atheists, have never considered the possibility that they are wrong. What this man is talking about is little more than a glorified death-bed version of Pascal's Wager, where, in the delirium and fear of approaching death, he wants to hedge his bets. This is far from a rational argument, in fact I can't think of a time when a human being is MORE likely to be irrational than during death or near-death.
      
      And of course if the last thing on your mind as you fade from life is thoughts of "what if there's a heaven and hell" than your chemically saturated half-dead brain is going to produce near-death experiences. Dreams can be quite vivid, feel quite real, and one can easily assume that those final thoughts before death, that last "dream" state before the brain can no longer function, must be one hell of a ride.
      
      There is no evidence here, no proof, and no good argument for the existence of God in any of what this man says or what he "experienced". As someone who once believed he was "filled with the holy ghost" and "spoke in the tongues of angels" I can say that religion produces some seemingly profound feelings, but so do dreams, music, movies, poetry, etc.
      
      So tell me, what makes people's Near death descents into the underworld or the heavens any more real than Odysseus' journey to the underworld?

      replyreport
      1. 71

         aguasilverposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         If I remember correctly, these NDA experiences happen AFTER the brain has shown as 'flatline' i.e. the brain is no longer functioning, which would mean the ONLY thing that could be functioning whilst 'dead' would be the spirit and/or soul prior to departure.
         
         Pleased to see that you have "considered the possibility that you are wrong".... keep considering.

         replyreport
         1. 71

            Titen-Sxullposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            So what is more likely? That there IS some residual activity in the brain even after primary brain-function as ceased. Or that someone's spirit, a non-physical aspect of themselves which has never been properly defined, let alone proven scientifically, is preparing to exit the brain/body in order to visit dead relatives, float down a brilliant tunnel, or haunt an attic somewhere?
            
            Please keep in mind that in the case of NDE's the people end up alive, hence the NEAR-death part. Thus far we have no examples of a FULL DEATH experience, as in someone who has fully died, their spirit as left their body and THEN they've come back to life months or years later. We don't have dead people coming back to life to share stories of the afterlife, we have people coming near to death to tell stories of their final thoughts, at least that seems far more likely to me.

            replyreport
         2. 83

            psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            You do not remember correctly.  They occur during disordered neural activity.  A brain state where hallucinations are commonly experienced.
            
            If someone has a "vision" that changes their life, that's fine.  I don't see what it has to do with me or objective reality. 
            
            Belief in God requires faith not facts.  It is subjective, not objective.

            replyreport
            1. 71

               aguasilverposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Guess I was wrong, although the doctor explains about 1.15 seconds in that the brain closes down 10 seconds after the heart stops.... but hey, I'm no doctor and in any case, as you say, it's a faith thing....

               replyreport
               1. 83

                  psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  The brain stops meaningfully integrating experiences in the cortex in that time.  But disorganized activity can go for minutes.

                  replyreport
                  1. 65

                     heatblast92posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Kinda like a decapitated body of a male mantis still engaged and exerting itself in intercourse with its partner.
                     
                     Pardon the poor analogy here. :\

                     replyreport
                  2. 65

                     aka-djposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     It appears you did not watch the video.
                     An NDE expert speaks about a commonality amongst those who have the experience that mere medical/drug related explanations do not fit.
                     Something of a different nature (spiritual) is happening.
                     
                     Interesting that many of you see this as a religious/faith issue, and not a scientific experience.
                     Yet, the researchers are applying scientific method to find explanations for NDEs.
                     Why is that?

                     replyreport
                     1. 65

                        heatblast92posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        I don't know; maybe it's got something to do with how the video seems so excessively tailored to threaten us lowly atheists with eternal punishment?
                        
                        If this is how what's-his-face-up-there intends to get us to believe in him or face the pits of hell, through infrequent incidents of a vaguely understood phenomenon, well, he's got a lot to work on his presentation skills.

                        replyreport
                        1. 65

                           aka-djposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           Looks to me like He'd be wasting His time on you.
                           You seem like a hard core case, having put yourself beyond reach.
                           
                           I see you are not alone, either. You are in "good" company.

                           replyreport
                           1. 65

                              heatblast92posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                              Believe me, you'll find plenty less virtuous (courteous?) than I am here.

                              replyreport
   3. 72

      getitriteposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      So do Near Death Experiences provide irrefutable evidence that God, through His son Jesus Christ, is the creator of the universe, and that the bible is His inerrant document, by which we should live our lives?
      
      Are you really trying to find out what causes NDE's, or are you simply trying to jump to a vacuous conclusion that religious faith, which has been thoroughly debunked, has validity???
      
      Thank you

      replyreport
      1. 71

         aguasilverposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Apparently it does for those who experienced it... guess they should know better than we do?

         replyreport
         1. 72

            getitriteposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I totally disagree.  Some people suffer from delusion, and actually know nothing about what is truly happening, yet assert their delusions as knowledge.

            replyreport
            1. 71

               aguasilverposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Yep, I can agree there to a degree, I've seen that with some folk who had no idea they were being guided by dark spirits manifesting as 'angels of light', or even totally unaware that they were being controlled.
               
               On the other hand, it seems all these former atheists and scientists only become deluded once they experience NDE.... what would it take to change your mind and allow yourself to be deluded after having an NDE,
               
               I mean you are one of our more virulent secularists here, so if you had that NDE, would you immediately dismiss it as a chemically induced delusion?

               replyreport
               1. 72

                  getitriteposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  replyreport
            2. 62

               pisean282311posted 11 years agoin reply to this

               @getitrite i agree from jesus to muhammad most had that delusions...

               replyreport
               1. 72

                  getitriteposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Then subsequent generations sadly mistake these delusions for facts, and mindlessly, try to live a life with the delusions of a long dead madman as the ultimate guide...IN THE 21ST CENTURY, NO DOUBT!

                  replyreport
                  1. 62

                     pisean282311posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     ...ya thats unfortunate but that is what is so...

                     replyreport
2. 65

   heatblast92posted 11 years ago

   The fear of death is inherent in all of us, an element whoever wrote the Bible seems fond of appealing to. One man's experience does not equate to fact, however true it is to him. If embracing what's-his-face as lord and savior provides the necessary frame of mind for a man to accept death, embrace him by all means, even if it means flying in the face of long-held beliefs. It also goes to prove a point held against religion by Richard Dawkins in his documentary, the God Delusion: give the religious an opening of irregularity, a miracle if you will, and they'll crowd around it as further enforcement for their beliefs.
   
   As the first poster stated, something that is found inexplicable... simply remains inexplicable. (see near death experience) There is still much to learn about the human mind and its inner workings, more so in your case. Its complexity and whatever it does that eludes scientific explanation should not be attributed to a higher being, except to the fact that it is simply more awesome than science. So, yes, I'd stick to the only logical explanation concerning the woman's hearing the screaming of tortured souls from supposedly hell, that she is merely influence of the mind.
   
   Also whoever posted the video apparently seems to have a terrible sense of aesthetics in making videos, though who am I to patronize someone who fancies subtitling videos with biblical quotes? The last comment on false gods, so do you think people outside your religion are capable of experiencing near death experiences as well?

   replyreport
3. 65

   aka-djposted 11 years ago

   It surprises me (not really) how a topic such as this rarely gets lots of comments.
   
   Could it be that it touches the wrong nerve in people?
   Could it be that you all really question your "faith" in nothing, when something like this topic confronts it?
   Just curious!

   replyreport
   1. 65

      heatblast92posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      It surprises me (not really) how overly religious people easily rile themselves up over such a statement as 'God is not great', and their immediate reaction to it is threats of death, damnation and whatever forms of discomfort they could think of at the moment.
      
      Silence does not necessarily translate to a lack of confidence in one's beliefs. It more often than not simply means letting you dwell in that self righteous attitude of yours while sparing ourselves the need to argue on philosophical trivialities as such. Or it could also mean we're a bit enjoying ourselves on other threads.

      replyreport
4. 59

   Linda Cassiniposted 11 years ago

   Meet Me on the "other" side and I'll tell you then..hmmm

   replyreport