Visit muslim-nonviolence.org. That will cure your delusion. That link you gave belongs to a scam website.
@vidal no need to go in either of two websites...what muslims world over are doing practically is enough to concludes false claims of religion...there is peace only if one agrees , dare one criticizes historical figures like jesus,muhammad ...peace vanishes...
When did anyone criticize historical figures like jesus,muhammad ...and peace vanished thereof?
when?...many times...from salman rushdie to recent film on islam...time and again....irony of latest episode was that movie was made by some one in usa and muslims got killed in pakistan and other muslim countries because of violent protest...how ironical...
Did you say 'jesus,muhammad'? If so, where are they in your post? You are only bringing Mohammed and Islam into the talk. I hope you're not hiding your prejudice behind a cloak of generalization.
You could only cite 2 examples where criticism of Islam caused violence. Have you read 'The Satanic Verses'? You should, before you jump into conclusions.
@vidal ..they r not two but more than 2000 in recent times...if u look at history it would be more than 20,000....
salman rushdie is not only author who was targetted and nothing justifies violence....even if salman abuses muhammad , violence is not justified ...
taslima is another e.g....muhammad film , danish cartoon ....
also invite u to read any pakistan daily for one year , you would find violence against shias,ahamadis every 10 days....
On Same lines call jesus something and see how muslims react....
Now I understand. You are very good at mixing things. You have already mixed 'criticism of Islam resulting violence' with group violence. Bravo.
no i doubt u understood...topic is "So easy to upset these "peaceful" Muslims".....group violence or violence due to criticism of Islam in end doesn't go well by claims of Islam being peaceful religion...only truly peaceful religion is jainism...u abuse mahavir or critize their book, result wont be violence....i hope this time u understood my point...
Well, you obviously love to increase figures from illegitimate sources. I previously said that you could only cite 2 examples where 'criticism of Islam' caused 'violence', and you added the casualty of 'violence against shias,ahamadis' with those examples. Why so? Don't you have good enough examples?
And, to make the case clear, you probably have no idea of the dynamism of those reactions. You could take a crash-course by reading the 'The Satanic Verses'.
so news dailies are illegitimate sources?....hmmm....then what is legitimate resource?
3) chopping hand of professor in kerala , India
4) death threat to danish cartoonist
5) latest anti islam movie...
u r missing whole point....it is not about satanic verses...it is about reaction of muslims which we are discussing out here...stop defending undefendable...reaction is uncivilized and barbaric....u need crash course on reactions of muslims....
You obviously have a twisted everything.
Anyway, I meant, by 'illegitimate', that you are adding up figures from sources ('violence against shias,ahamadis) to increase the number casualties caused from 'criticism of Islam'. They are two separate issues.
The number of casulaties ever caused by any criticism of Islam, are numbered. And you have no idea why those reactions were caused, in the first place.
And you have no idea why those reactions were caused, in the first place.
thats again not the point...u r not getting core point...most muslims sell their religion as being peaceful....do u agree?...
now whatever causes reactions is not the point...point is does it turn up to be violent?...if yes...the claims are false...
if u view reactions world wide in recent times , only one reaction was peaceful...17 countries saw violent protest...
The number of casulaties ever caused by any criticism of Islam, are numbered.
again that doesnot mean anything...topic is "so easy to upset peaceful muslims'....
If you want to discuss the characteristics of Muslims, that's fine. Do that and be happy.
But just look how we started. I asked you a question, which was, "When did anyone criticize historical figures like jesus,muhammad ...and peace vanished thereof?"
When did I want to talk about anything else? You couldn't provide any satisfactory answer to that question. You started with both Christianity and Islam. But now, it's evident that you are biased against one particular religion, which is Islam.
Even there, you could provide only 5 examples. And you have no idea what caused those supposedly five reactions.
The topic is "So easy to upset these "peaceful" Muslims". Not anything to do with Christianity.
By your own admission pisean has already given us 5 examples of violence brought on by Muslims because of criticism of Islam. Now I personally have never meet a muslim I didn't like, but when we see such reaction it seems like persuading evidence for the said question.
So far your only response has been (why are you picking on muslims) and (well you should read 'The Satanic Verses'. Does this imply I would become violent and call for the death of the writer if I read it?
No disrespect to your religion here, just trying to understand.
What was I thinking? Of course you were not defending Islam.
So you are saying because Muslims get upset, their religion is false ?
Well. upset feeling is not wrong if no improper action is presented.
Anyway, we have to consider world's situation & how rich countries are taking advantages of poorer (where a lot are Muslims).
From the link...
"Relations between the French state and its significant Muslim community have been strained in recent years by a string of controversies that have put the Muslim faith at odds with France's secular tradition."
Once again, societies are put under the thumb of religious beliefs. But, what is far more interesting here is the fact that if anyone decides they want to live in an Islamic society, they are expected to follow the rules there, yet when Muslims move to a secular society, they want the rules changed to align with their religious beliefs.
The stench of intolerance and hypocrisy is high.
Ok, Rad Man has come here. How do you know I am a Muslim, Rad Man, and not a Christian? Do you guess people's religion by their face?
Regarding your questions, Rad Man, I would suggest that you learn where the conversation between me and that piscean began. I asked him a specific question, which he still couldn't answer. I don't have any interest to analyze the characteristics of the Muslim community. If you have that interest, do that. Be happy.
Piscean claims 5 reactions. Well, they are claims. And if you want to talk about them, then one can expect that you know about them and their history. Without reading Rushdie's 'The Satanic Verses', one can not successfully give a proper opinion on the controversy that emerged based on that book.
Salman Rushdie didn't compose children's comics for the 'The Satanic Verses'. It's a different material.
@vidal i am surprised by your comments...those are not claims my friend...those are news....read professor hand chooped off in kerala...is it claim?....nope...taslima attacked...is it claim?....libya governor killed...is it claim?...salman rushdie translator killed...is it claim?....
u dont need to read exam paper of professor to see result of his hand chopped off....so dont justify reactions ...no violent reactions is worth justifying....and such reactions have no place in civilized world...if they feel hurt there r ways of protesting peacefully...
Well, man landed on moon, that's also a news. al-Qaeda destroyed the WTC, that's also news. Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, that was also a news. There is an Islamic fascism that the West must encounter, that's also news. There are many news to believe in.
".if they feel hurt there r ways of protesting peacefully..." -By the way, you should have given that advice to the Bushiers. That could've saved a million human lives.
@vidal agreed ...but taslima was attacked live by muslim political group....kerala hand chopped was proudly claimed by muslim group....bounty was announced for salman rushdie by iran's spiritual chief...bounty was announced for film maker in latest by pakistani minister live...12 where killed in protest in pakistan , protest was covered by media...dont defend something which cannot be defended.....
That media had also broadcast footages of supposed al-Qaeda leaders. That media also televised the whole episode of the moon landing fairy tale. That media fabricates stories each day, twists facts and opinions, makes fake images, victimizes people by making them villains, where they were actually the ones who have been oppressed. If you wan to believe in that media, then feel free.
Where did you read that someone's hand was chopped off? Did you see any valid images of that? If you did, then how do you know who was actually responsible for that? These could be all fabricated with political motives. And in India, they have enough reasons to fabricate them.
yes....is saw video , interview of professor and her sister...muslim group claimed responsibility and two where booked and right now are serving term...the group is extremist muslim group ...
one cannot fabricate live taslima attack ...the politician is too famous to be fabricated with...
yes claiming that islam is all good is fabrication...every religion has its positive and negative...violence is negative aspect of islam and sooner muslims rise to curb it , better for their faith...other wise muslim mullah would keep fabricating to project themselves as victims and in end islam would only suffer....
Did he survive after his hand was chopped off? Where is that clip, anyway? This sounds interesting.
Anyway, do you know why Taslima Nasrin was sent back to India? Have you read her works?
And, again, have you read The Satanic Verses? If you haven't, then you have not sufficient ground to claim anything against anyone.
@vidal u r again justifying things which cannot be justified...point here is not about taslima or salman...even if both of them on record abuse muhammad..so what?....we are here talking about reactions....violent reactions are never ever worth justifying...
also two more e.g.s governor of punjab (pak) was killed by security personnel because he supported withdrawal of law of blasphemy..
a buddist village was rampage by muslims because one buddist put deteriotary post on Islam...
coming to professor ,yes he survived...u can get clip from youtube...just type kerala professor hand chopped....
Post a specific link where it shows that his hands were chopped off, and that he is still alive. Then you have to show that this attack was due to his criticism of Islam.
Anyway, I ask again, did you read the works of those two controversial writers? You have no valid argument, what you have is only sentiments against Islam.
Ah, moon landing fairy tale? You may want to look into the Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment. They bounce lasers of the mirrors that the lunar landing left behind and measure how long the laser takes to get back to earth to determine how far the moon is away. The fact that this can be done is absolute proof of the lunar landings.
Ms Ashtiani, now 45, was convicted in 2006 of having an 'illicit relationship' with two men following the murder of her husband the year before.
She was sentenced at that time to 99 lashes, but was then later also convicted of adultery and sentenced to death by stoning.
Naghi Mahmoudi, a lawyer forced to flee Iran for defending Ms Ashtiani's second lawyer Houtan Kian who himself was arrested for representing her, also hailed the news.
You don't seem to defend these thing you seem to dismiss them. I'm just wondering why. As I've said before I've never met a muslim I didn't like and I've met a lot. Just wonder what you think of these things and where you get your information?
Okay you've made the same claim a few times now and it confuses me a bit. You keep telling us (and if I'm wrong I'm truly sorry) that Rushdie's 'The Satanic Verses' was a good reason for violence. I and others (some muslims as well) keep saying that there is no reason for violence especially if they are just words. We have a saying in the west (I'm not from the U.S.) sticks and stones my break my bones, but names will never hurt me. Do you think Rushdie's 'The Satanic Verses' is justification for violence? I will not read Rushdie's 'The Satanic Verses' because I believe it to be hate speech, but hate speech is just that speech and not a reason for violence.
"Do you think Rushdie's 'The Satanic Verses' is justification for violence? I will not read Rushdie's 'The Satanic Verses' because I believe it to be hate speech,"
-Here is another take on the matter. You haven't read Satanic Verses, and you believe it to be hate speech. Bravo.
Yes, I believe muslims think 'The Satanic Verses' is hate speech. I would prefer to develop my own opinions on Islam. I'm asking for your help, but you never answer any questions. I ask are you a muslim and you reply "What is this crap?". I ask do you think 'The Satanic Verses' is justification for violence and you as if I read it. I'm trying to learn. These are just question, I'm not trolling.
You have already made a prediction that I am a Muslim. On what basis did you make such an affirmation?
No I have not, I have repeated asked you if you are, but you refuse to answer any questions.
1) "No disrespect to your religion here, just trying to understand." -What is the meaning of that statement?
2) "You are defending Islam." -When did I defend Islam? Please cite examples.
Why should I answer your question when you won't answer one of mine? I could most likely go back through this forum and find the information for you, but you refuse to answer even the simplest of questions. I certainly don't think it's a bad thing to defend Islam, I do it when I say I've never met a muslim I didn't like.
Thanks for pointing out that he is a troll. He earlier almost confessed it-
"I ask are you a muslim and you reply "What is this crap?". I ask do you think 'The Satanic Verses' is justification for violence and you as if I read it. I'm trying to learn. These are just question, I'm not trolling."
I know, I know, but I couldn't help it. If you get a chance I recommend his hub. Don't worry it's not a long read. Two maybe three sentences. He starts of well and ends well, but the middle sentence falls short. I guess I thought I saw something in him.
You could only see Islam there, to correct the phrase.
Yup, he's this guy.
He's had about a trillion incarnations since his original account was banned...lol
And you're this guy.
I have no evidence, but my gut feeling says so. It must be then the case. You're angry because I had upset your game on this thread. And now, you are conspiring against me using fake avatars.
Uh, yep. I'm steaming like a clam. I thought the fact that chip's forum post and your hub are the same word for word was evidence in its own right.
Hmmm. Mark? No one's ever accused me of being Mark, but I'll go with it.
Starchild is a theory on the origin of life. It's not that only I have had the access to that theory.
Anyway, don't start talking to yourself here. That looks ridiculous. Keep one persona.
"I talk to myself all the time. I make more sense than anyone I know."
That is a symptom of severe mental illnesses.
It's so funny that you think I am a Muslim, but you can't explain why.
It's so funny that you don't know if your a muslim or not. As I said I could go back and show you where and when you were defending Islam, but instead I decided to read your only hub. Get back to me when you can carry on a conversation. I won't comment on your hub, but I can see why you're a little confused.
You have been trolling from the beginning. You have no idea where I started on this thread. Your only argument is that I am a Muslim. Even there, you have only a claim. It's visible why Islam is your dislike. You have only claims even there. Learn first how to discuss properly. Then find a buddy of your own level. You are in the wrong club. You can't hang here.
How can I judge if a person is a muslim by there face? Islam is a religion and not a race. You keep deflecting the questions. You keep saying what about Christianity. This forum is not about Christianity. You are defending Islam. Are you not a muslim? Again this is not about race, as as far as I can tell from your picture you are a white guy.
"No disrespect to your religion here, just trying to understand."
-What did you mean by that?
"You are defending Islam. Are you not a muslim?"
-What is this crap?
It is YOU who are coming over my face and making absurd clarifications. I have nothing to do with you. Be happy. I didn't want to talk about the features of the Muslim community. My question was something else, and you have no idea of that.
There are peaceful Muslims and very aggressive Muslims, just as there are so many aggressive Christians. It was so easy for Bush to persuade the USA and England to attack Iraq only because of the anti-Muslim sentimens by the majority of Christians. The evidence for Iraq to have participated in the 9/11 attack was non existing. Nevertheless, millions of Christians were totally satisfied with a few fabrications, just to have an excuse to kill Muslims.
I am neither Christian, nor Muslim. Indeed, my religion is much older and has no name. I believe in peace, love, harmony, and an integration with the universal energy. God is the spirit of the universe, not the creator. I am neutral in the battle between religions. Christians, Muslims, and anyone else under the banner of an organization keep forgetting God, in the name of their religion. God is supposed to be love, at least in their own preaching.
gramon1-- Its always nice to have neutrals taking part in such discussions, as they provide unbiased view point of affairs.
With all due respect, the wars against Iraq and Afghanistan are not religious wars - at least not on the part of the USA. Our government is a secular one, not a Christian one. Many of the citizens of the USA are not Christians.
That being said, these are wars being (that have been) fought between a nation with a secular government (England's too) and nations with religious governments and predominantly Muslim inhabitants.
Yes, indeed there are religious extremists everywhere, but it was not an attack on anyone's religion that prompted these wars.
Bush said it very clearly: "The United States is A Christian Nation." I, as a non Christian was angry and offended regularly by him. Perhaps you didn't hear it because it didn't affect you. Romny and the Tea Party are appealing to "Christians" with their anti-choice rhetoric. Officially, the USA is secular, but "In God We Trust" is written in our currency, The house of representatives opens with a prayer, and children have to recite every day in school "One Nation Under God."
Now that the delusion about USA secularity is out of the way, my point is that nobody with common sense bought the ficticious propaganda the Bush administration fabricated to send us to Iraq. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Afghanistan had much to do with 9/11. It harbored the perpetrators of such vile attack on our nation. Bush took advantage of the attack and the ANTI-MUSLIM American sentiments to expand the war to Iraq. The real reason to attack Iraq was to provide its oil to Hallyburton, a company controlled by Chenney, Bush's vice-president.
@gramon1 obviously what bush did was illegal and he should be tried in international court...but topic is not bush ...topic is "So easy to upset these "peaceful" Muslims"....
My point is that "peaceful" muslims are as easy to ignite as "pe4aceful" Christians. All you have to do is to let them know that the people they are killing are not of the same religion. Christians have killed more millions of people in history in the name of their religion than anyone else.
@gramon yes christians have killed...but in todays time abuse jesus and ur chances of living would be much more in usa than in saudi arabia...just try abusing muhammad any where in the world including usa and u would know the difference...may be 100 yrs down the line muslims would be much more civilized in reactions and far less violents...they need serious reforms in their religion...
Most muslim countries need serious reforms in their politics. I am sure that if the Tea Party takes over, we will be in the same position. For instance, The Tea Party wants to declare abortion as legal murder. We have the death penalty. Therefore, they will be able to easily execute MANY WOMEN if they become the law and the enforcers. I see the dangers of extreme Muslim and extreme Christianity as the same. We are just lucky that the Christians do not have the totalitarian power that the Muslims have in some countries. It is a matter of extremism, not of any particular religion.
@gramon1 no it is about religion too my friend...muhammad set this example by getting rid of poetress who was critical of him...it is in hadith...in long history of islam very few can get away by criticizing muhammad or quran publicly....i agree though that there are extremist in all religion but islam is special in terms of violent protest they under take...only non violent religion in true sense is jainism
The fact is that christianity is not about Christ either. The first Gospel was written about 60 years after his death. The last one, anout 200 years. Christianity as we know it, was started in the second council in Nicea. It was a political manipulation to shift the power from the politheists to the Christians. They redefined the religion, destroyed any other versions of the new teatament, and moved the capital of the empire from Rome to Byzanthium. Thereafter, Christianity grew through Europe by war, invasion, imposition, and murder. Point in case, Christianity was started and spread through murder and war, just as did Islam. However, there are MANY good and loving people in both religions. The problem is to think that they are the murderers, while we are not. Of course, when I said things like this in my religion classes, the preast called me a heretic. Eventually, they persuaded me that I really am one.
I do actively fight for women's rights in Islamic countries. I understand the evil of having a country controlled by a religion. Nevertheless, the evil is not in the Muslim religion. The evil is in religious control of the people.
Do you have any suggestion as to how this "religious control of the people" can be diminished, or can at least be decreased? Just thought you are serious enough on these subjects, so.
(A little advice- Ignore the fish.)
@gramon1 u r missing whole point...can u call bible a false book and be assured u would be safe?....can u abuse jesus?...yes or no?...try this with quran and muhammad...then conclude...islam needs reforms...or else they r heading towards disaster...
Great, I'm always looking for a chance to say Bush is and was a moron. There I said it.
"In God We Trust" and "Under God" point only toward God - not toward Jesus specifically. Unfortunately, while Bush may have been hopeful in his statement about the US being a Christian nation, he was wrong. As far as it having an effect on me - I am an American and any time the nation I live in is at war, it has an effect on me.
Our government was designed to be, and is BY LAW, a secular one. Whether people choose to pervert that fact in their speech (or to be persuaded by speeches that pervert that fact) is, sadly, another story altogether.
In the end, you are incorrect. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are not religious wars on the part of either the US or England. Again, if people believe that is the case, they may be hopeful, but they are wrong.
You said that it took advantage of anti-Muslim sentiment in the US. That I don't disagree with. But many of those who are anti-Muslim are not Christians at all.
You also said that the war was about oil.
So, which is it? A religious war or an economic one?
I said that the reason Bush could convince so many people to ignore the lack of evidence was their ANTI-MUSLIM sentiments. Had Bush tried to run a war against the Vatican, he would have had ZERO support.
Christ had to tell people "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what bellongs to God." The reason he had to say it was that people mix religion and finamnces all the time, hence the wealth of any religious group you want to look at. It is a human tradition to blend religion, money, and power.
I find it comical that you think Bush would NOT have support in a war against the Vatican. If you think Americans hate Muslims, you should ask them about Catholics sometime!
And, originally, you stated that it was due to anti-Muslim sentiment from Christians. I disputed that. You later changed it to anti-Muslim sentiment from Americans. Again, I have no argument with that statement at all. You're absolutely right about that. Unfortunately, there is a great deal of anti-Muslim sentiment among Americans - of all faiths and of no faith.
I may have said this before, but my European Father in law taught me something about human nature when we were talking about my new brother in law who is his countrymen. He told me he is hard headed because people from my brother in law's province are all hard headed. I said what about people you your own province?
He replied "which town?"
I said "well, what about the village next to yours?"
He said "Oh, there all morons".
"What about the people of your own village?"
His reply was "which street".
That I'm afraid is human nature with of course a little bit of ignorance thrown in.
That is SO true. I am of Italian descent on my father's side. When someone used to say to him that Italian men had terrible tempers, he used to jokingly reply - "Only Sicilians."
Stories like yours should really put things into perspective for us during conversations like these.
You're right about Christ's warnings about 'giving to Caesar.' Please keep in mind that this was in a region of the world where government is not now, and has never been secular.
It seems obvious to me that the peaceful Muslims are the ones not rioting. If every Muslim was rioting, I assure you, we would be in a lot more trouble.
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