There are so many different definitions of agnosticism, what is it to you?
To me it's the belief that the existence of a deity or deities can be known. There is also agnostic atheist which just includes not holding a belief in a God. So many labels. Lol.
It means you don't know whether or not there is a God/Gods/Creator
By this you infer agnosticism and athiesm are religious ideologies. Bravo.
The rejection of religion is, by definition, a religious ideology--as in, an ideology that excludes religion.
From the Universal English Dictionary, Ed. Henry Cecil Wyld, Waverley Press, 1960:
Religion: “…..1. Belief in, acknowledgement of, a supernatural power which controls the universe and directs man's destiny......”
By this definition, Agnosticism and Atheism cannot be regarded as "religions."
Hello Jonny. Yes, that is one definition. Under other definitions, (probably from the same dictionary, although I did not confirm this), atheism and agnosticism would fit. Actually, I believe they fit under this one as well, but making the case represents more time than I have to spend here right now. I think there have even been threads on this in the past. I was just pointing out the inference made by the post I was commenting on. I know how badly the folks who identify themselves as atheists and agnostics typically want to be viewed as somehow above religion and/or not religious, so it is rare when one so clearly infers they are religious.
Thanks for your comments.
I can't help thinking that all the for and against arguments about religion and faith fail to address the underlying emotions which we are trying to appease.
I don't qualify as an agnostic. I do qualify as an a-theist. Why do I? Why do I reject the notion of a "god' looking into my life, who can direct me, discipline me, punish me? Because I reject control! Because when I feel trapped, imprisoned, I react violently against that control.
Such a god represents the control that my fellow humans (try to) have over me and my life. So I reject any semblance of such a god.
When a person who claims to have the authoritative backing of a supernatural being, tries to "Lord" (pun intended) over me, then I either confront, fight, or run a mile from that person.
Here you see my emotions at work. They are what primarily direct my actions and reactions. Not really the logic of the situation.
Maybe this point of view (which does not address the meaning of agnostic) will open up some deeper understanding of you folks in this discussion.... I await your feed back.
If I may, Jonny. Based on the information you provided here, this doesn't necessarily line up with the definition of atheist. By definition an atheist is a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings. Here you aren't specifically denying the existence as much as simply rejecting the dominion and authority of said being.
I'm not trying to argue here because you can call yourself what you want. But if we go by the definition, rejecting authority is not the same as lacking belief in the existence of
Ok, thanks for that.... my emphasis was on one of the reasons for thinking/feeling the way I do. But I understand the point you are getting at. Thanks again.
Technology it is an ideology about religion, not of it. So grammatically it would be more like an contrareligious ideology.
Hmm. That's an interesting take. Most agnostics I know will argue that all is belief and there is no way to determine which is correct.
Including that said argument.
There is one method that can clear misunderstandings and can reach conclusions about "ultimate reality",- deduction and definition.
That's why agnostics don't offer anything of value.
I don't think people develop deeply held beliefs with public utility in mind. That is just how they see the world.
I think the point to fence sitting is that they don't see the world at all.
Imagine this fence is in reality a brick wall. Those sitting on this fence sees both sides while everyone else are half blind compared to those which see both sides.
If they saw both sides, they would have something to say, but they don't.
Very good point, I had not thought of that.
Or they don't build fantasies they assume are true and must be spread aggressively, but are honest in their lack of direct knowledge. Not many crusades have been lead by agnostics and not many totalitarian regimes ruled by them.
First time my dad let me drive his truck (over 50 years ago) I was told to try to keep it half way between the ditches. That way if i lost controll a little bit I'd still be OK. That is where the Agnostic is at. The agressive Atheist has gone up the outer side of the one side of the ditch, and the agressive religionist has gone off the other side.
All the while the agnostic is walking down the middle of the road talking to an Atheist on their right and a theist on the left.
Or something like that.
That being said, I would assume agnostics would have done the rigor to gain some direct knowledge of the world around us, insomuch as to at the very least have a grasp on how things work and how other things have never been shown to work. With these tools in hand, they need not build fantasies or make assumptions but can actively synthesize that knowledge to get them off the fence.
Well yes, I would suspect that running a crusade or regime would require some effort but that would also require one to get off the fence, first.
You do realise that offering a job to run a crusade or regime won't be incentive enough? Who wants to run a regime? It's work, work, work. What with summary executions, forced labor camps and genocides. True, there are some perks while in power, but a lot of sleepless nights.
Do you have a point or are just ranting?
Hmm. You can't follow a conversation and you don't get a joke. What, can you do?
Definition of JOKE
a : something said or done to provoke laughter; especially : a brief oral narrative with a climactic humorous twist
b (1) : the humorous or ridiculous element in something (2) : an instance of jesting : kidding <can't take a joke>
Do not scoff at that which you don't understand.
I'm not surprised. It's unfortunate there isn't a market for scoffing. He'd make a killing.
lol... yeah, below the belt.
I do respect what you say actually... and I have a respect for someone who is seeking and open minded. One day you might lean one way more and the next, the other, but you are usually very respectful of both sides, and you have not closed the door to truth while looking for it's definition.
You may be the minority view on that, but thanks.
Personally, it has taken a bit to get over the whole death camp guard thing, but I must say many of your posts of late have been encouraging. I may almost finally be over it.
So, you feel it perfectly acceptable to take wide open, cheap personal shots at others here, yet you cry the victim constantly.
It's just so Christian of you.
I have no problem poking you back, no. If you don't like it, be nice, I will be so respectful, you will grow tired of my lowliness.
This is a personal insult. Emile is an Agnostic, you just said she had nothing of value to offer. You see? That is an insult.
What I find incredulous is the fact that ppl are *obsessed with something that they either claim is untrue or they're not sure about.
There is something to this Jesus or so many ppl wouldn't be consumed with the need to talk about spirituality constantly... daily.
Hey. The subject of spirituality encompasses more than just Jesus. But, I do agree on some level. I think most everyone respects Jesus. A lot of my problem with Christianity is that they don't, from where I'm sitting. Up here on the fence, with nothing valid to say. I added the last part to save ATM the trouble of posting in response.
Actually, you're just not on the fence.
I would respond with that is your perception, but you don't understand that argument. So, I'm forced to mimic Melissa.
Whatever you say, dear.
Didn't you hear? The great and powerful ATM has spoken. I'm obviously not agnostic. He's never wrong.
No, it;'s just that you're rarely ever right about anything.
That's called an appeal to popularity fallacy.
Many of us would like that need to talk about spirituality constantly to stop, completely.
Please... feel free. No one is stopping you from talking about the big game.
Isn't that indicative of a stand which creates conflict? You would like (you used the word us, so it is assumed you are included). That represents a want. Then you reference the needs of others. You want them to suppress their needs. To accommodate your wants. Is this a fair request? If so, then why?
No, they are attempts to stop the conflict, with speech rather than violence.
Gibberish. Try talking sense.
Ok. And I'll type slow, so you can follow. Tolerance is a virtue. Maybe you should work on it.
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