For believers in anything only

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   Ericdierkerposted 11 years ago

   I got in trouble and banned in response to writing a forum "for believers only", and then defending.  So I finished the sentence here. I just assumed and have never met a person who does not believe in something. Believes in no God, believes there is not enough truth. Believes in creationism or in Evolution. Some folks even believe the earth will just keep rotating. I have heard people say "I believe in you" or the other, I only believe in my self(kind of a cogito ergo sum deal) A rock climber told me he believe in his ropes and a skydiver believed in his parachute.
   I have heard of people that believe in their government  -- Well I do, I believe they will act in their own self interest most of the time ;-)
   
   Most you know that I believe in love, I have never ever not seen it.
   
   I hope that point is now clear. Now I would like to know what people of the writing ilk believe in.
   
   I hope the point here is not to bash someone else's belief but learn from them.

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      Zelkiiroposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Think it mighta been this guy. But he said, "Believe in me, who believes in you," so I can't be too sure.

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         Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Could you help my small brain I believe I cannot figure it out. And that link only confuses me more.

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      Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Interesting. I take it you make no distinction between "believing," in proven scientific facts like evolution or "believing," in majikal Super Beings?
      
      Personally I try not to have unfounded beliefs, and I think most atheists are of that persuasion. So I tend to hold beliefs that are at least based in reality in some way. Having said that I "believe," I am good enough to win a big poker tournament one day, I have just never quite managed it. This is the closest I come to unfounded beliefs.
      
      Do you also believe in hate?

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         cleaner3posted 11 years agoin reply to this

         hate is a trained concept .. children  do not know what hate is.. until it is explained to them that you can hate anyone,  and that is  why you should teach your children well.. that to  forgive someone is the hardest thing to learn .. especially yourself.!

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            Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Not sure what point you are making here.

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               Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Yes I believe there is hate. But I also believe it is in the "nuture"r not nature. I think that belief in things we can physically sense is very normal.

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                  Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  So - you don't or do make a distinction?

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                     Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Make a distinction between what Mark?

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                        Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        Please see my first response.

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                           Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           Of course I do. I also believe there is a difference in believing in the love of your wife and the love of your children. And between the love a nurse shows to a parent and the love of millions of private Americans providing aid to Haiti.

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      Brenda Durhamposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Are you kidding?   You got banned for making a specific thread for believers only?   Whoa.    I remember reading part of the thread, but it wasn't for me because apparently our definitions of "Believer" are different.   But I can't imagine why anyone would want you banned for it.
      
      Anyway,  I believe God's word.   The Bible.  I believe He created the heavens and earth,  made Adam from the dust of the earth, made Eve from a bone of Adam's, and etc.,   that Jesus died for the sins of all mankind so that anyone who will give their hearts and lives to Him will someday get to go to heaven and dwell with Him forever;   all the way up to the last of the Book where it says someday this earth will melt with fervent heat.    So much for radical nature lovers, huh?---their idol the earth will someday melt like a plastic bottle in a bonfire.    The Creator of that earth, however,  has lived forever and will live forever, as will His followers,  anyone who is born again and appreciates His Love and wants to Love Him.  That's the good news.

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         Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         MY point is partially that "believer" just is not a word reserved for Christians. We should always qualify what we believe in as you just did and that is very cool. Thank you for that.

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            Brenda Durhamposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I would ask exactly when did it become a term for anything BUT Christianity,  but I guess I won't.

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               Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Oh no - ask. Do you like any sports? Do you have family members? I do not think I could count the times I patted a player of mine going into to do his best when I said -- I believe you kid. "We believe the economy will improve"
               I understand that those folks that actually followed Jesus Christ around on foot were not call "believers" but "followers of the word" and the Pharisees were called believers.

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                  Brenda Durhamposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Indeed?
                  From whence came that "understanding"?
                  Do you have chapter and verse?
                  Or do you mean that nonbelievers tried to apply that term to people in a negative way, as they so often have tried to use the term "Christians" as an insult, perhaps even from the days of Antioch?

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                     Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     I will not quote but remind and you decide -- Before the rooster crowed they did not ask Peter - are you a believer -- they said "he is one of them that follows Christ" (we could also argue what disciple really means - but basically follower/student)
                     What I am saying is that the dictionary does not see it your way -- so common parlance is that we can believe in many things. But a Christian is distinguished by belief and faith IN God, not by the word belief.. If you were to tell me that true Muslims do not believe in Mohammad I would be skeptical of your thinking. Or the Jews not not believe in Moses well, that would be tough to agree with.

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                        Brenda Durhamposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        Ah, so it was "they".   We know who "they" is in that instance of course.
                        Which illustrates my point.

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                           Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           That me just get this clear: Brenda to you the word ''Believer ' can only apply to a follower of Christ?

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                              Brenda Durhamposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                              That is the normal usage, yes.
                              Now of course, there are many examples of usage of the word "believer".   When the Beatles sang "I'm A Believer", I'm pretty sure they weren't talking about God.  haha.      Anybody who has a grasp of ordinary language knows that the word "believer" can be used for many subjects.
                              
                              You, on the other hand, seem to be trying to lump all religions into one big leaven-puffed lump,  as seems to be your usual intent.   You admit you don't believe the Bible, so you're trying to posit a theory that all "believers" in anything at all have the same God;   in other words,  I'm not surprised of course;  it just called for a correction, that's all;   it's saddening when a Preacher doesn't heed the warning about a little leaven leavening the whole lump.   But oh that's right-----that comes from the Bible that you don't believe in.............
                              
                              
                              And it's the same concept with the word or title of "Preacher"..........it used to mean, and should mean, a Preacher of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.     These days,  there's an increasingly steady agenda to turn a Church, including the title of the place, into a place where unBiblical things are espoused,  where even Satanic things are taught.    To me, that's not a Church,  it's a devil's pit, and it should be called such.     Reckon a lot of groups want that tax deduction etc.,  as well as to re-define everything.

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                                 Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                 Brenda when I say I do not believe in a book. Try to get to grasp what I am saying  There are over 200 copyrighted version of the Bible in English. Which one am I to believe in? I believe fully that the Bible was inspired by God. I read the words in Bibles every day and meditate on them. But if you as me do I believe in a book of which there are 200 different versions - no I do not. But I believe in the story within. And I believe that Christ is the living word.

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                  Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Where are you "understanding," this from? Because that sounds like it was made up to defend Christians. Did you make that up yourself or take it from somewhere?

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      HattieMattieMaeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      when we argue with anyone it is your belief system you are arguing with!

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         Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         YOU mean that when ever we argue we are just arguing with our own self beliefs --- or did you mean "their" belief system?

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   cleaner3posted 11 years ago

   I think I believe in a concept ...of such, a group
   that would put together...something,  I could see
   it happen ...but would
   my own eyes.... lie to me
   Faith of belief.. therefore can be two or one .
   that is not possible   
   my mind says ..   believe it
   so my  heart   screams
   Have faith... it will happen ..
   but  hope  isn't actually real
   it is Faith.

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      Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I see the distinction you make. I will have to think on that one. So it should really be "faith springs eternal"?  (kind of works with your latest poem) hmmm

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      Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Yes I worked on this one in the little factory in my head. I have trouble for I have seen folks thet we say "all they have is hope". And not all of them have faith they just hope for better futures. The simply hope rain will come to water their fields.
      (but that could just be semantics)

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         wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I don't see it as semantics at all.  Hope is what it is, just as you say,  Faith, on the other hand, is a mistaken feeling that hope WILL be fulfilled.  If that makes sense - I'm not speaking in the faith that God is there, God loves you, etc., but that God will give you what you want or need.
         
         The amazing (and unsettling) thing to me is that when faith is not rewarded (the parent dies, rain doesn't come, whatever) that faith, sometimes in the exact same form, comes again the very next day - the person somehow is able to ignore/forget/forgive/rationalize the faith that didn't work.

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            Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Are faith and belief too often used incorrectly? Or should we just accept that they have meanings that are different for everyone?

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               wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Ignoring what a dictionary might have to say, I don't think so.  I say that because belief, when used in a religious sense, is well understood by everyone.  And outside of spiritual matters, it is also pretty well understood as to what it means.
               
               However, there are those that are intentionally misusing the "belief" word in claiming that all non-religious knowledge short of absolute (which includes very nearly all knowledge) is the same as religious beliefs.  They don't seem to like the idea that a belief is not knowledge and will claim that all knowledge is only belief in an effort to "legitimize" their own belief system. 
               
               Faith, on the other hand, is near enough to being interchangeable with belief as to seldom cause a problem.  Plus, you never seem to see it intentionally misused, probably because it has a semi-sacred feeling and is seldom used outside of religious matters.

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                  Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  So folks who do not believe in God think it means  -- just another faith word, and and those that believe in God think it is just their own word and there can be only on belief.
                  
                  Well I hope this forum did some dispelling of the notion. It causes unneeded antagonism.

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                     Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     So you still make no distinction between reasonable belief in proven science and faith based belief in majick?

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                        Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        Mark I make real clear -- belief in different matters is different just like love toward different people is different. Of course they are different but they are still belief. I believe in science and I believe in God. Or I could say I know science and I know God. All have fallibility (my beliefs and knowledge) And I fall short in both. There is a distinction even in how I love and believe in each of my children.

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                           Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           So - what is your point again? I am confused, "still a belief" implies no distinction. Is that what you are trying to say?

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                              Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                              Mark is all belief exactly the same?  I do not think so. Do you?

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                                 Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                 No - I think belief in irrational nonsense is vastly different to belief in proven facts. I am glad you don't think they are both still beliefs. Glad we cleared that up.

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                                    Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                    Wrong they are both beliefs and they are different kinds of beliefs. I do not believe science the way I believe in God. Because you cannot believe in God does not make it "irrational nonsense". Please stop using such pejorative wording it lessons your credibility. Because you cannot understand something does not make it less than what you can understand.
                                    Please read the forum -- please do not bash others. Cannot you just abide by that in this forum please.

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                                       Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                       It is irrational and it makes no sense. Telling the truth is not "bashing."
                                       
                                       You claiming that you understand when I do not is the actual bashing.

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                                       Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                       Really, Mia Culpa -- you understand my belief in God?

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                                          Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                          Yes, I do.

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                                       Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                       We are all cool then and I was wrong you do understand the difference.

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   wildernessposted 11 years ago

   We all believe, and the vast majority of those beliefs are wrong to some degree.
   
   The earth's rotation, for instance, will not continue.  It has slowed almost 2 ms in the past century and will one day perhaps become tidally locked to the sun.

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      Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Wilderness you remind us well that assumptions are often mistaken for beliefs. thanks

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   hfortinberryposted 11 years ago

   My dear Ericdierker,
   Thank you for trying to be a pin that might break through the "surface tension" that this world's inhabitants have unknowingly created for themselves.  Those who do not hear are those who cannot hear, because their minds are incapable of  allowing in any light.  They are as a closed loop circuit that can only go in one direction and agree with electrons or rather thoughts that agree with the world's dominant narrative.  None of us cannot believe, because we have been created in God's image, and as the creator, He must have faith and belief in his visions and in His Word in order to have "the substance of what He has hoped for become the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). Our own visions come from our own beliefs and e must remember that "Where there is no vision the people perish." Have a blessed 911!    H.B. Fortinberry

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      Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Deus Caritas Est - God is love. And I truly believe that love resides within us all. Yes we are taught many other things, but we are not taught love. For love is already in us. I cannot say I believe in a book. I just cannot believe in a thing. Perhaps a living thing (animal) but not an object. But I can believe what the book teaches me. Just as some believe in what we write here.

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