Proof of God is the desire for God.
Take all three of my dogs, for instance. I know they have a sense of taste because they will search out, crave and enjoy tasty foods. People seem to have a sense of God in that they try to search Him out. They crave a relationship with an all-knowing, all-loving invisible force to comfort them in times of need, confusion, anxiety, grief, and danger! They also enjoy God and are thankful for His bounty and patience. These human tendencies are instinctive and (mostly) universal.
In other words, whatever you want to believe is true must therefore be true.
Seriously Kathryn, that is an argument only a child would put forth.
First, it is hardly universal. The attributes you assign to your god are not sought after by even half the human race and neither are they instinctual. Most of us grow out of a childish need or desire for a "parent" to take care of us.
Second, ATM is right; the idea that because you want something is proof it is there to have is an argument fit only for a child.
People with no hopes, dreams or real imagination cannot grasp or understand this Kathryn. Unless something smacks them right in the face they do not get it. Many can find joy in life but many cannot because without the above life is pretty boring and depressing. Hence we get folks like ATM. But happily we also get really fun folks like Wilderness.
LOL. Sorry Eric, but we are not fooled by childish arguments. You may consider them intellectually stimulating, but that only serves to show your own level of comprehension.
LOL. Sorry Eric, but you are only hitting yourselves in the face, with your own boots.
Yes Eric, I understand you are incapable of dealing with reality and must find solace in fantasy and delusion. That is what tends to cause and persist many of the problems in the world.
Yes Eric, it is folks like yourself that are the reason nothing ever gets solved in the world, as you retreat back to fairy tales in light of reality. The world is too boring and depressing, so lets all sit around fantasizing and maybe it will all just go away.
[kon-duh-sen-shuhn] Show IPA
an act or instance of condescending.
behavior that is patronizing or condescending.
voluntary assumption of equality with a person regarded as inferior.
"the pot calling the kettle black"
- something that you say which means someone should not criticize another person for a fault that they have themselves.
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/the … ttle+black
n. pl. hy·poc·ri·sies
1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
2. An act or instance of such falseness.
Not sure how that was intended, but what little you know of me... alright.
Maybe I misunderstood? Your post to Eric was not condescending?
Thank you. I think.
Maybe it's because I do have hopes, dreams and imagination. I understand the difference between those things and reality, and do not allow them to control my life, but I do have them and very often work hard to make them become real.
Kathryn, though, and as much as I enjoy her presence on the forums, does not always seem to understand that her imagined things are not real. Ghosts, goblins and gods may all be real, but they may not, too, and that can be a difficult distinction to grasp when one has become firmly convinced that they are really there.
Great comment wilderness, "her imagined things are not real." I think to examine this we must look at the person. I think Kathryn lives much with her head in the clouds --- my family says that of me. But at the same time it would appear that we both live healthy, productive and good lives. So I do not think we are talking about a serious hallucination issue. Just a different perspective of life. I think that you can see things that I cannot. Is it so hard to believe that I can see things that you cannot?
Gray. The world is always gray, darn it!
No one could survive in today's world were the imaginings going on in some of the posts here produced by the same reasoning used in everyday life. No problem, however small (why doesn't the TV work?) could be solved as the answer would always be something from the supernatural, unseen, undetectable world of imagination. Instead of plugging in the TV we would all decide that God didn't like TV or that aliens were sucking up the energy pulses that the little people inside the box were sending out to us.
So sure, an effective life is always possible as long as we leave such flawed reasoning behind us, and everyone does just that.
Wasn't it you that spoke of fox tracks one day? That kind of thing is always seen by one but not another, but "seen" also indicates a silver emulsion on paper can record it. "Seen" in the sense you use does not mean that; it means (I think) that your imagination comes up with things mine doesn't.
In that regard perception does indeed play a much larger role than reality. You will absolutely "perceive" things I do not, and will act based on some of those things. No harm in that, until it negatively affects others (or, I suppose, yourself) and that seldom happens. Very few people allow their imaginations to rule their lives to the point that the followers of Jim Jones did - the huge majority fall back into reality before real harm comes about.
Of course, it is, Eric. You do not have special powers, you are human like the rest of us. Your eyes are no different than any other human. Pretending to see things that we cannot is simply childish and immature behavior.
I think you may think you see things we don't. But most of us are given the same senses, so you are either special or you are not perceiving what you think you are.
So I reckon Rad Man you can see a "David" in a stone and can perceive the right play to call like a Pro Quarterback with an option. And you can fly a space ship --- just because you have eyes and ears and senses like Neil Armstrong, Michaelangelo and Drew Breeze. I imagine you can discern a tumor with your bare hands and play music as well as Springsteen, and preach as well a Graham? I could take you hunting and you would not see the snake I see until it bit you.
You senses are not tuned like mine and mine not like yours or any of the examples above.
This is also proof of unicorns and dragons and Hello Kitty. (And a suggestion that atheist are not human?)
Joy of Life is proof of God. It is especially evident in every young child.
LOL. Bowling is proof of leprechauns. It is especially evidence in every bowling pin.
Bowling is proof of leprechauns? Is it that time already? What is evidence in every bowling pin? I perceive you are jonesing for the bowling alley!
What do you mean? Can't you see the evidence in every bowling pin? It's obvious, anyone with shamrock can see it. You must not have shamrock, hence you will not understand or see as we see.
Each one of us is proof of God: Small drops in the Ocean. Destined to return to the Ocean. Consciousness cannot be detected by man-made apparatuses. Does that mean we are not conscious? Three states of consciousness include: awake, asleep or not on this plane. (There may be more, like alpha state, etc.)
When the atheists get to the other side they will say to all the theists, "You were Right!"
till then, happy disagreeing!
LOL. Then, suddenly, Allah appears! What does Kathryn do???
Allah is the same as God as the same as Jehovah as the same as Brahma… there is no name for God in heaven except...
So, when did you become a Muslim, Kathryn? Why aren't you wearing a Bhurka?
Not my culture, I guess. I'm sorta Scottish. Wish I had some plaid kilts, though. What's your ancestry, ATM... Irish? (...you do seem to enjoy discussing leprechauns and shamrocks. I like them too.)
A Super-being? to be created by a matriarchal society? Huh?
Actually, after the great war of Zentalquabula, many of us fled after the Harkonnen gained back power over the galaxy. We now remain in exile awaiting the return of the Great Green Arkleseizure and "The Coming of the Great White Handkerchief".
Warning: meandering thoughts: Think of the word tend.
What is tending? Tending to reality, like tending to a garden.
What is pretend? Pre/tending to fantasy or make believe, before it is a reality. For instance, kids playing house or dress up are pre/tending (to) that which will eventually become reality. So, maybe some only pretend there is a God…
But, eventually God will be something REAL
to tend to.
- proof of God is the consciousness of each person. God is consciousness. We are facets of the same crystal.
Yes, would you agree that the conscious is where decision lies? Curious.
Actually, it's proof of a brain... well, for some of us anyways.
Well, that effectively ends the intelligent design theory! No consciousness at the time of creation, no god, no intelligence.
The Big Bang reigns supreme!
Proof of God lies within. The soul, spirit, essence of joy and light is found inside. Your "decision maker" aligns with God when you say yes. Cannot convince the carnal; but they flock like...
So, when you put together unintelligible word salads like this one, do you actually believe anyone can understand them?
Actually, I really do not expect you to understand anything I say.
Then, you are very successful in your endeavors to confuse and obfuscate. Why anyone would want to make that their goal is equally baffling.
Just to be sure, I only realize that obfuscation will be the chosen result from our conversation. Not my intent; the "hearer's" intent.
The reader's inability to find understanding in random words strung together is their "fault"? Is that because God made them stupid or something?
That seems the concensus. But it is more like a choice to see certain paragraphs as random words strung together. Hogwash! Is the reply. Yet those same seemingly incompotent minds will go and "understand fully" theories and so-called facts from the scientific kingdom. Heck... obfuscate??? Now THAT is understood; but not "you must FIRST believe that he is..."
Yes, we do understand facts and theories from science. There is no confusion or obfuscation in science, only well thought out explanations of the world around us. Sorry, that you refuse to learn anything about our world and are compelled to merely offer word salads, instead of well thought out explanations. Such is the destiny of the incompetent mind.
Well-thought out is right! I remember Science class and Biology class; yeah that stuff was really simple. Tell me this; how is it that people who understand facts (that take an entire language developed to understand) are so dumfouded when it comes to matters of faith? Realizing that the "facts" can rarely be stated with 100% certainty.
So, you didn't actually learn anything there, correct?
We are not dumbfounded by faith, we are dumbfounded by people who believe in ridiculous nonsense. It's as if they have scooped out their brain with a melon baller and replaced it with carbuncles.
That would certainly be the opinion of one who doesn't recognize a fact.
How much of a percentage would you give to gravity being a fact?
How much of a percentage would you give to God being a fact? In your scenario; gravity is a fact. But not all of it is understood perfectly. The intricacies cannot be had by average thinkers. We put our faith in the team that says, "we have found the answer. " first. We believe them until someone else says ""we have a new discovery"
Based on the evidence, zero, of course.
No, that is reality, not my scenario.
There is no such thing as understanding something perfectly, because that makes no sense.
What does that supposed to mean? Are you saying average thinkers are unable to understand that gravity is a fact?
Yes, I understand that you take everything on faith, that you have no understanding of things, but that is now how the rest of us operate. We actually do understand, hence we don't need faith and beliefs to rule our worldview, because we know faith and beliefs are very often wrong.
It sounds as if we first have to accept an unproved assertion as real, then make up new meanings for words and phrases that fit within that assertion. Only then can things like "Your "decision maker" aligns with God when you say yes." or "Cannot convince the carnal; but they flock like..." This is because things like "aligns with God" are meaningless unless the belief is already there, but also allows the listener to decide on whatever meaning they wish. Whatever meaning works for them in their personal perception of reality without regard to what reality actually is.
Do I have it right this time?
Wow knowledge. But no understanding. This life will be closed to your eyes as long as you close your eyes to it. That is a really simple statement. But nobody understands.
Notice Wilderness, that Cgenaea states you have no understanding, but is incapable of explaining anything and simply goes on to say that "nobody understands". This certainly appears to be a case in which Cgenaea has created a complete fantasy world for herself that only she understands, or at least, pretends to understand.
Oh, I understand all right. I understand perfectly that closed eyes will not see, but I'm not at all sure that you do. Firmly closed eyes, with an imagination feverishly working overtime to come up with explanations that "feel" good but have no apparent connection to reality is not conducive to understanding. Just to feeling good about whatever perception of reality is chosen to believe in.
Sorry, but your word salads are not my intent or anyone else intent, they are simply the result of an uneducated mind.
So, if I had a desire for a Flying Spaghetti Monster, does that make it real? Sometimes I desire for Scarlett Johansson to appear naked in my bed, but it doesn't happen.
It's not that people desire God, I and any other non-believer doesn't, it's that people sometimes desire meaning and answers to questions about themselves and existence, and this is filled by the concept of a god.
The desire for Scarlett Johansson to show up naked in your bed proves you have love in your heart for a pretty actor. The desire for God proves that we have love in our heart for our conscious, intelligent, loving, invisible creator whose essence is the same essence as our own. That essence is consciousness. It cannot be detected except through extrasensory perception of the third eye of intuition, which must be developed through use, which requires meditation on the object of our love, God. At first faith is required, eventually God comes to you in the blink of an eye. Then you will know, "I Am that I Am." It is beyond intellectual comprehension and words, words, words. The Yogis say God manifests in your own mind as the feeling of Bliss, the sound of Aum and the perception of Light.
One never looses self-identification, but rather, one absorbs the Consciousness of God into one's own consciousness. Who wouldn't want to do that?
"Who wouldn't want to do that?" Anyone that examines the question rationally.
We all know that man is a rationalizing animal. We have all seen others, often children, that will frequently rationalize whatever they want to be true. My grandson, at 4, proclaimed every meal that he would NOT spill his drink, and believed that to be true. And for months, he spilled that drink at EVERY meal, but it never changed his belief that he would not spill it this time. At 6, he saw his parents in the stadium of a football game being televised and watched in our home (and they were really there). 2 minutes later, he saw them again on the screen, on the other side of the stadium and dressed in different clothes, but "indisputably" his parents! We can and do convince ourselves of many things.
Concentrating on the subject of desire (god) for months on end, convincing ourselves that there is actually something living inside of us, that this god "comes to us" when we wish; well, it isn't uncommon to rationalize such things. Ignoring the naysayers and reality, pretending we actually "feel" something; it all works very well for us. We can effectively "brainwash" ourselves with nothing more than a little time and an active imagination.
And those that recognize this, and don't desire a made up and false to fact perception of reality, don't want to do that.
Even worse in my opinion are those who constantly make themselves insistently reliant upon self and not realizing how incredibly fragile and vulnerable self really is reslistically within reason and with all the "facts" that have been presented.
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
"how incredibly fragile and vulnerable self really is reslistically within reason and with all the "facts" that have been presented."
What is "within reason"? Theists will tell us it means that man is unable to support himself, must have help to know right from wrong. Sorry, it doesn't work that way for many. While the typical (or perhaps stereotypical) theist subscribes to this (must have god, priest, etc. to provide guidance) most accept that we are indeed responsible for ourselves.
And then there is that "facts" thing - just what "facts" do you reference here that have been presented? That god loves us and so drowns us? That he wants us in heaven so kills first born children before they can be saved from hell? The He even exists at all? What made up "facts" do you speak of here?
For at the end of it all, self is all that any of us have to rely on. We can lie to ourselves and fool ourselves into believing in a "fairy godmother" kind of god thing out there somewhere, but have been unable to provide any evidence of that for the thousands of years that men have tried to. Self is all there is; grow up, enter the adult world and be responsible for yourself instead of leaning on a made up myth.
I concur. We NEED to believe in God!
Furthermore, we can't help but believe in God. Look Around you!
Consider the wonder of your own body! Evolution HAD to have been guided by some conscious and invisible force. If the essence of our very beings is invisible, why is it so impossible to believe in God?
Truth is, if you walk up to people on the street as ask,
"Do you believe in God."
MOST of them will say, "Yes."
Those who believe in God are in the majority. Why is that? The Truth is sensed by those who have not closed themselves off to it. Truth is whispering within them as conscience.
I think the opinion is that even thought can be seen because it makes the lights go off on the imaging picture thingy. But it is obvious that thought processes are invisible. We may say with our voices, but our brainstuffs remain a mystery to man. God knows the thought process.
Yes, what is it that c h o o s e s ???? Where does the WILL come from? From the INVISIBLE and undetectable! Our selves!
(The brain/ body is the vehicle for the soul. But in heaven, we have a "light" vehicle. The Pink Unicorn probably has a pink light-form.)TWISI
NO! YOU need to believe in God.
Well just looking around this forum thread, I see ATM, Wilderness, Rad Man, and myself, who all do not believe in God. Why don't you see that?
Unless you have proof that something HAD to guide Evolution, it is only your opinion.
So do you have proof that the essence of our existence is invisible? Good. Let's see it.
It is apparent that you are confusing TRUTH with WISHFUL THINKING.
Ahhhh, It appears to me he is setting aside his wishes in search of the truth while you are attempting to make truth out of your wishes.
So you have no proof of anything you have asserted? And since you have been called out for bluffing, you resort to this level, which seems downright absurd. Can you try to actually stand up for what you say, by backing your bold assertions with proof? Otherwise you lose all credibility. Thanks
Our essence is spirit. We crave to be in touch with spirit. Spirit is bliss. Loosing touch with our original bliss is the cause of drug addiction, and alcoholism. The desire for bliss.
It was our original state of existence.
No one has to believe anything I keyboard. It is interesting though, is it not? It is based on Hindu precepts.
Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, meekness, faith, temperance; all fruits of the spirit. Hindu principles seem to be in line with those fruits.
Yes, they are! Krishna was Christ-like. Both teach Cosmic Consciousness!
Uh, yep. the bible doesn't call it cosmic consciousness that I know of but I see your idea.
"Heaven is within" That is where consciousness originates. Consciousness can reunite with consciousness... the drop back into the ocean… thats what I mean by "ocean of consciousness."
"The harvest, (of Christ or Cosmic consciousness) is abundant, but the laborers are few." It is a very hard thing for me to accept: to become one with the ocean of Spirit. But what is the option…? at least we can take comfort that we are of God and go back to God.
According to Hindu Scripture.
I'd say lust rather than love, but that's besides the point.
"The desire for God proves that we have love in our heart for our conscious, intelligent, loving, invisible creator whose essence is the same essence as our own." You essentially just said "The desire for God proves we have a desire for God", and the rest of what you said is basically saying that if you convince yourself that God exists then "God comes to you". Of course you're going to believe in God in you spend a fuckload of time convincing yourself he's there, but that doesn't mean you have any actual evidence that he's there. The reason why the argument from personal experience is not evidence is because it is personal; I cannot validate the claim, so why should I believe it?
But answer me this question, and I want you to focus on this. Take your sentence "The desire for God proves that we have love in our heart for our conscious, intelligent, loving, invisible creator whose essence is the same essence as our own" and replace the word God with 'Invisible Pink Unicorn'. Would that be true too? If not, why?
Oh Kathryn, you make me laugh so much. Side splitting.
The Catholic Church was sued, by an Italian priest, who demaned proof, of God. They could not...
The Catholic Church was sued, by an Italian priest, who demaned proof, of God. They could not...
No, Silly, because God is invisible!
Q. How can we prove that dogs have taste buds.
A. By recognizing their stimulus: Tasty foods.
Q. How can we prove that humans have the capability of sensing of God?
A. By recognizing that God is a universally sought-after stimulus.
Logical deduction: Why would humans want a God, if there wasn't a God? Since we, (who are invisible,) want (an invisible) God, there must be (an invisible) God!
I found the proof that even the Catholic Church couldn't find!
I always love this debate
It brings out so many things, even phrases like 'unintelligible word salads' which make me laugh, whether I agree with the direction of criticism or not.
In fact, reading through all of this thread and sub threads, I would say the whole lot is one big mess, one big word salad.
The funniest thing of all, is that really there is absolutely nothing to say on the whole subject. Someone said there is only self that is left, and actually, in some ways that is right, as all of our perceptions on everything are through the polaroid filters of our own mind.
Ah the sweet futility of it :-)
Scientists don't like to admit that they can't prove or disprove anything either way, as it's impossible to make a truly objective analysis of something when you're inside of it (i.e. life, existence).
How to observe a phenomenon when you're actually inside of it? You can't, ergo, the argument of God or not-God are both a waste of time, in a sense. Just one huge word salad.
The question is, what happens when someone abandons excessive intellectualism and abandons all pretense of knowing anything at all?
And meanwhile God is laughing his UNO what off.
Can't. He has no such thing - that "UNO what" (along with several other pieces of anatomy) are far too evil for Him to have stuck to Himself. After all, even humanity must keep it covered; God cannot even possess such a thing.
lol, wilderness. Causal God does not have a body.
Little do you know. He is in fact a body of light, blinding to mere man. Some believers think they can seem him by squinting, but it's just the bulb in the neighbors porch light.
But He has no UNO what.
Listen, when I highlighted astral body, something miraculous occurred… "Subtle body" came up. I am NOT JOKING… Wow. I am "stone cold serious" (as Paradigmsearch puts it.)
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