23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
i am curious how people read the 69 weeks, which speak of the time fromt he rebuilding of Jerusalem to the time of CHRISTs ministry, and then suddenly in the seventieth week they have it as speaking of the anti-christ. so i would like to discuss what YOU think it means and why. and non believers, feel free to join in, since it is a sad fact that many non believers seem to know more about what the bible says than do believers...
You need jerami for this one. He's got the most interesting take on these things of anyone here.
thank you Emile R. i do not know this Jerami, but if he stops in and shares his views i would be most interested to hear them. i am rather disappointed, but not surprised in the apathy shown by so called Christians. one would think they would want to know what is coming. but like i said, few Christians seem to know or even want to know what the Word of their GOD says.....
It's difficult to understand with the translation you are using. The translation you are using isn't a very good one. Try this one:
There is no word 'christ' or 'anti-christ' in the chapter. To understand God's anointed one (messiah) who was King Cyrus (Koresh), see Isaiah 44:28 and 45:1.
For an explanation of the chapter, see:
hello WriterFox, and thank you for your response. i must disagree with your interpretation though. firstly, King Cyrus was at he time of Daniels prophecy, (Daniel saw this vision when Cyrus was king). also, the Messiah was CHRIST, not Cyrus. as for what bible version i read, i trust the KJV (1611), because it is the bible GOD gave man, the bible HE protected, and the bible HE spread throughout the world. again thank you for your response. also here is a link that helps explain who the annointed on it.
http://www.rightlydividingtheword.com/a … daniel.htm
"Week" means "week." Pure and simple. It means he gave a 70-week prophecy, it turned out to be full of crap, and then scholars kept bullsh!tting their way to explaining it away. And so it continues.
If Daniel (or the writer claiming to be Daniel) really meant to say "age" instead of "week"...he could have just said "age." The Hebrews had a word for it. They had words for many things. It's a very complex and flexible language. They can articulate these things.
Trying to say "Oh, he meant this" or "What he's really saying is this" is bollocks of the highest order. If he was delivering such a dire prophecy, you'd think he'd want to spell it out as clearly as possible so that, y'know, action could be taken to prepare for/change it. And if he had a brain in his head, he would have. But nope, he went with "weeks," and so it's "weeks," and hindsight is 20/20 unless you're blind.
Daniel spoke what he was told to speak. if GOD wanted the word for ages used, then it would have been. pure and simple. and if you believe it was a literal period of 70 WEEKS, then i can see how it would appear to be "total crap" as you so delicately put it. most anyone who studies bible prophecy agrees that week meant a period of seven...and going by this, history has shown that this prophecy has already been fulfilled. unless someone can show me, of course, that this is not true. and that is why i started this thread. i want to make sure i am right. and if it turns out i am wrong then i will need to change my thinking.
What do you say to the accusation of several biblical scholars that the book of Daniel is a forgery, written much later than it claims? Its explored in some depth in Bart ehrman in his book, aptly named "forged"
i say that satan has many people, including so called Christians, fooled.
And how do you know or demonstrate which side is filed and which side is right?
because my GOD shows me what is truth and what is not. but i honestly do not expect a non believer to understand or even accept that answer. however, it is the only answer i have or care to have. i have spent my entire life trusting in my GOD (44 yrs). not because i was taught to by man, but because i was taught to by GOD. i see no reason to stop trusting in HIM, and plenty of reasons to continue doing so.
also, the point of this thread is not to bash believers (or non believers) for their faith or lack of it. so far, no bashing has been done, and i would like to keep it that way. i am not here to discuss whether the book of Daniel is valid or not, but how it is read or interpreted.
Is asking a question consisted a breeding ground for potential bashing? In a free, open forum like this, you're not only to get people who agree with your point of view. I have as much right to post anywhere I like as you and I have said and done nothing that can be deemed disrespectful. Is that a problem?
The problem with simple assertions is that you can say anything you want. That doesn't make it true. You said some people are deceived by Satan, insinuating that biblical scholars who make a living studying these topics are the ones being deceived because they disagree with your opinion. Did I get that right?
since i am the one who started this thread, i am merely requesting that in discussing this topic, we refrain from arguing or bashing. i ask because i know there are many people who like nothing better than stirring up arguments. i will stop conversing with anyone who does this. i did not say you were bashing...i said lets not start. i have also made it clear that i am interested in differing views, as it presents me with a chance to better understand this particular scripture. it does not mean i will agree with differing views, but then i might, i wont know til they are presented.
since i posted this thread, it should be pretty obvious that i believe Daniel to be a valid part of the bible, so it honestly doesn't even make sense for someone to participate in this conversation if they themselves do not believe it. as i said, i am not here to discuss the validity of the book of Daniel, but the meaning or interpretation of certain verses in Daniel. why is that so hard to understand? if you do not have an opinion, i do not see why you wish to join this conversation. sure, you have as much right as anyone else to join in, but if you do not have an opinion on the topic at hand...why would you want to unless you merely want to start an argument?
you join this conversation, challenging my beliefs, when i just wish to discuss one topic. i said in the beginning i welcome non believers to join because i have noticed many seem to know scripture better than many Christians. i did not invite non believers just so you can challenge my beliefs (which you can never do). if you cannot discuss the topic as i posted it, why join the conversation? as for your question, yes, you got it right. CHRIST HIMSELF said many would be deceived, would believe false doctrines...so why should my saying be so strange?
All I did was ask what you think about an overhearing number of actual biblical scholars reaching the conclusion that Daniel was a) not written by Daniel and b)written much later than thought. I think that I'd this book is an actual forgery, it bears a lot of weight on your forum thread. With all due respect, my posts have been on topic, brief and respectful. You seem to be the one attempting to pick a fight with me with your doubly long responses and insinuations of my intent.
i think i made my answer on the validity of the book of Daniel quite clear. so lets get off that boat shall we and back on the boat that started this thread. i never said you were being disrespectful, i never said you were bashing...i said lets not start. since i believe in the validity of the book of Daniel, and i stated as much, then obviously saying it has no validity has no bearing whatsoever, for me.again, i am looking for answers from people who believe (obviously) that the book of Daniel is the real deal and part of the bible. specifically i wish to know if people (going by Daniel 24) believe this has already been fulfilled or is yet to be and why they believe what they do. got it?
Would you have responded the same way to me If I was a believer questioning the validity of Daniel? Or do you simply assume because I'm an atheist that I'm somehow out to challenge the faith of any believer from any religion that I meet? I'm just curious.
In topic, however, whether or not the book of Daniel is valid belies the bigger issue. One of the criteria for prophecy is that it cannot be ambiguous. Ambiguity is one of the justifications that believers give for rejecting claimed prophecies from other religions. As such, If a certain passage can be interpreted a million different ways by a million different people, isn't it the definition of ambiguous? I can provide an example. Say, for the sake of argument, that there was a prophecy circulating That "one day, the sun will fail to shine". One person could say that it predicts a cloudy or overcast day. Another Could say it predicts an Eclipse. A third could say that it predicts the end of the world when the sun burns out. This is an ambiguous prophecy.
In addition, it's really easy to make a prophecy retro fit an event that has already happened. If there was a prophecy somewhere that said there would be a big mountain, and an eagle would fly into the mountain and the mountain would burn and ultimately collapse and many people would die, it would be relatively simple to look at it in our day and agree and say that it was clearly a prophecy about September 11 when a plane crashed into the twin towers and killed thousands. These are only two of the problems when it comes to prophetic interpretation. There are dozen more.
I'm not looking for a fight. I'm looking for an actual honest discussion from different sides. I'm pretty sure that's possible.
no, it makes no difference to me whether you are a believer or a non believer. let me clarify. when i was three i died for four minutes. i met CHRIST. because of that i believe in HIM. i have belonged to HIM from the beginning. i have spent my life learning about HIM, from HIM. once i left off attending church, HE has cleansed me of false doctrines and taught me HIS truths. GOD (and my relationship to HIM) is more real to me than this world i live in. HE has shown me in a way i can understand that the KJV bible is the bible HE approved to carry HIS message around the world. unlike some christians, i do not pick and choose what i wish to believe. in my opinion, you either believe all of the bible or none of it. i believe it all. what is in the KJV is what GOD intended to be in there, what was left out was what GOD intended to be left out. therefore, the book of Daniel is a valid part of the bible. this is why this is not even an issue for me.
the bible interprets itself, it is not open to individual interpretations. however, i am not a bible scholar per se...i do study it and have read it many times front to back. there is a very big chance i am missing something, or not connecting something. that is why i wish to hear what others think. GOD will show me if they are right or wrong. above all, i seek HIS Will...i am not concerned with looking stupid or being wrong.
and yes, it is possible
I understand your personal experience and your reasons for belief. I'm not interested in arguing with them, although I disagree with your conclusions.
Have you studied how the original Bible was put together in the 2nd century after Christ? I'm assuming that you do know the history of the KJV, and that things IN the original Bible were left out of the King James version, that many things are changed, etc. It seems strange to me that you would conclude that version as absolutely true, when it is not the oldest or most reliable version in existence. Do you read Hebrew or Latin? Have your read the texts in the original languages?
I'm sorry, but if you think the Bible interprets itself, why are you asking for interpretations of a specific passage of prophecy? Shouldn't the Bible be interpreting itself?
i think it would help you understand better if you did not take things i say out of context...things like the statement i made about the bible interpreting itself...if you read it in context, you will get the answer you are looking for. one of my biggest pet peeves is having to repeat myself. again...it matters not one iota to me what bibles are older or came before. yes i know the history of the KJV. i also know that is the version GOD has sent around the world, and in spite of mans attempts, no one has been able to destroy it. now, please re read my posts before you ask questions, most likely you will find the answers already there and i wont have to repeat myself. if you have a question i have not yet answered, i will be happy to answer it to the best of my ability....
Wow. .. Okay, you're too confrontational even for me. I'm trying to clarify what you meant. I have to many people accusing me of taking the Bible out of context, there are far too many productive conversations to be had without worrying about someone accusing meof taking their words out of context as well. Good luck to you. Maybe later on you can examine this forum and learn a lesson from how you spoke to others who were simply trying to ask questions and get you to clarify your statements. For someone insistent on not staying drama, you seem to cause a lot more than is present or necessary. Later.
Although I have absolutely no interest in prophesy (I think prophesy would only be valuable if it left no questions as to what and when) I am interested in your statement about the KJV of the Bible. What would make you come to the conclusion that God, himself, chose that version to protect and spread?
Because, honestly, its intent was simply to create a translation in what was, at the time, common English. It was an attempt to help people better understand what they were reading. There are better translations out there now. If you view it from the same perspective they were using when the king chose to order a new translation. Honestly? I find it as suspect as if a government today ordered a new translation written. Who is a head of government to dabble in the business of religion?
hey there, Emile...sorry it took so long to get to this, family medical issues...but i am back now, so lets see if i can answer this for you.
i could have said the geneva bible was the true word of GOD...but that bible is no longer in print, and this to me says GOD did not endorse it, for whatever reason. because HE promised to preserve HIS Word, and that it should go to all the corners of the world. the KJV has been translated into nearly 2500 of the 6500 languages of the world and if i remember right it has been printed more than 6 billion times. it has withstood mans attempts to destroy it. it has for centuries shaped nations and civilizations. it has been around for over 400 yrs. and still going strong. it is considered 95% accurate. i wanted to search how many languages the KJV has been translated into, and i found a site that is easy to read, i will include the link here, as it gives the history of the KJV. in anycase, these things are why i believe this bible is the one inspired by and endorsed by GOD. and because HE has confirmed that belief for me.
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