Valid Reasoning and The Ten Commandments
I, KLH, stated that It is logical to follow The Ten Commandments because they are based on self preservation.
Righteous Atheist, however, responded with this rebuttal:
"So - you don't know what 10% of the ten commandments even mean.
Possibly the worst selection of ten morals to follow ever actually. "
I am curious as to how and why he believes I am wrong.
I may need help. I am not good with arguing for what is obviously true. But, I will try…. if no one else steps in.Doesn't this belong in the religious forums?
No, because there is the issue of valid reasoning. I say it (valid reasoning) is based on love. it is more of a free form discussion, in my mind. But I see it has been placed here. ( EDIT: I did mean for it to be in topical. Sorry.)
That is not what you said at all.
This is what you said:Isn't that what I said?
"For Instance, it is logical to follow the Ten Commandments of Jesus or the Eightfold Path of Buddha because these guidelines will prevent us from suffering. It is reasonable to follow them, based on love for ourselves and others."
I said it better the second time:
"It is logical to follow the ten commandments because they are based on self preservation."
(... not to mention the preservation of others.)No. Then you said this:
And I responded as you quoted.
The " Ten commandments " as they are presented are only audible spoken portion of the COVENANT between The YHWH- God the Creator and the israelites presented at Sinai. The Ten Commandments are summery or basis of the whole Law of Moses ( Ex.20; Dt, 5 ) There are mentioned 203 others commandments as wells 2.713 commandments in the Law of Moses.
If anyone doesn't want them or disagree with them, let him/her be better person morally and socially thus to prove the God of the Universe wrong."God of the Universe"
You mean Mighty Triple O?
( I wrote: "I am convinced Mighty Tripple O, (an omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent force) would be a better name than "God".
MTO for short. ")
"May the force be with you."No, what I wrote I mean the YHWEH , God the creator of the Universe; I don't have any idea what/who "mighty" triple o " mto" might be; additionally to this I reject a "force " because with me is the Spirit of the Living God YHWEH .
YHWEH, MTO Heavenly Father, Divine Mother... its all the same force.
No further discussion on this theme. Have it your way.
Don't you think it's a bit dogmatic to insist on a particular name, Michael-Milec? God exists throughout the universe in the smallest of particles to the whole of its existence, including every galaxy.
...and the dark matter as well.
God has EVERYTHING and can give ANYTHING. Still we deny His existence and argue over whether He exists or not!
And now his name. Give me a break.
God is waiting patiently for our focus, devotion and love. He is smiling, knowing what beauty is in store for us.
and what joy... what fun.
Yet we argue about trivialities such as what name He is to go by.
It is a matter of expanding our consciousness.
How?
meditate!
Pray.
Thanks for taking the time to respond here with valuable information regarding the origin of the Ten Commandments.
(This is the true value of a forum… many people contributing their insights and knowledge. Naysayers provide road blocks to expanded awareness. Oh well. Maybe they make us work a little harder.)
Michael, Milec: Thank you for expressing your faith in God. You have your name for MTO or OOOF as we are calling Him here. But, don't expect us to call him YHWH.
But I am curious why you do.
KLHHello KLH, you've got your break!(Haha) To me even this phrase has so many meanings. Why do "we'' argue - it is in human nature in quest for being right (vanity on my part ). I Don't really care what most of the opinions are. However, do not expect me to have fellowship with MTO or OOOF or turn back on the One who throughout history has communicated as the real- to real with His people and have revealed His name. In my long walk in His righteous calling upon His name, H e dind'nt object before answering, though showing me every time when I have need to be corrected as loving, merciful Father always expecting of me maximum in doing His will . He is a real person with a real name and my expectation is not of anyone to call Him YAHWEH- His Covenant name, used here by me only because The Ten Commandments are related to His Covenant to His people, though he has revealed Himself under many others name -- which everyone who wants to know them can easily be lead to them by the presence of the Holy Spirit in them.
I really think He has a sense of humor and would respond to OOOF just fine.
I hear him laughing now.
Pardon My Craziness.
PS I pardon yours.
( I am suspecting you are Jewish.)It's no problem at all, Kathryn. You can say whatever you want, we're all here for you because, that is the point of life without God.
I want to know what it is about the Ten Commandments that has anything to do with graven images or not being logical to follow.
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.
You shall not make idols. (graven images!)
So, you think devotion to "God" is worshiping a graven image????
HMMMM……
Again I ask, what is a graven image?
Could it be a STONE engraved with images of various gods as the ones in India? Wouldn't you agree there is logically no point in worshiping a stone or a made up god?
We are instructed to be devoted to a real "God" for our own good.
PS I am convinced Mighty Tripple O (omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent) would be a better name than "God".
MTO for short
Father, however is sufficient. (Spiritual Father)Well - as god does not exist - that is hardly for my own good is it?
Of course MTO exists! look around! look within
or not...
your choice.Nonsense. Your choice to believe nonsense of course.
The question remains, how and will any of these improve humanity?
“You shall have no other gods before[a] me."
Irrelevant to humanity.
“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."
Irrelevant to humanity, plus the majority Christians do this all the time.
“You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name."
Irrelevant to humanity.
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."
A reasonable labour law that most Christians ignore.
“Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you."
Clearly this was only directed to Gods chosen people who we are told he gave land to. Irrelevant to most of humanity and doesn't say what to do if your parents are crack heads. Should you honour crack heads? How about murdering crack heads?
“You shall not murder."
Great idea, unless your government calls on our children to go kill, then it's somehow honourable.
“You shall not commit adultery."
Great idea.
“You shall not steal."
Great idea, unless it's in the form of taxes that we don't want to pay. Then we tend to cheat as much as we can.
“You shall not give false testimony against your neighbour."
You can lie, just don't get your neighbour put in jail for it.
“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.”
Here is an attempt at controlling thoughts, not actions.
Notice it doesn't say anything about slavery, just mentions to not want your neighbour's slaves. Why not delete one of the first few that are irrelevant to humanity with something about not keeping slaves?You keep using the word humanity. Humanity must be valuable to you.
How often do you you use the word "I" or "me" or "myself" or even "mine" in your daily life?
CuriousMy daily life is irrelevant to the discussion of ethics and morality. What is best for humanity is what we are discussing because what is best for me conflict with what's best for humanity.
What is best for you is what is best for humanity.
No, because I may be a murdering, bombing nut job. Do you see the difference, we ask whats good for humanity, murdering, bombing nut jobs are not good for humanity.
-murdering and bombing are good for nut jobs?
There you have it, Kathryn, the Commandments that are not logical, they are not needed and only tend to create conflict and division.
The others are simply ways of behaving that can be reasoned. If we want to exist within a society, we don't want to do to others what we wouldn't want done to ourselves, ie. murder, theft, etc.
It pretty much makes the entire list redundant.
"Possibly the worst selection of ten morals to follow ever actually. "
Can you explain the basis for your opinion. R.A.
Very Curious.If you had only 10 instructions to give to someone in order to make them live a moral life - are these the 10 you would go with?
Well, there were more. Some how these were extracted. right?
Then Jesus came along and said, do unto others as you would have them do unto you and love MTO with your whole body, mind and soul.
I would have thought you would rather have less than more!
Jesus gives us the basis for them all.
Therefore I say, Jesus gives us the basis for all valid reasoning.
PS you said: "make them live a moral life." No one MAKES us do anything. These are scientific and psychologically sound guidelines for peace, contentment and happiness within us.No - the ones you quoted are the 10 commandments. And PSUUA. Thanks.
You do know the ten commandments - right?
Well... it's not logical to follow the Ten Commandments unless you're a Christian/believe in God. The first four are pretty specific to God, so unless you believe in him, they don't serve any purpose at all.
"You shall not murder" is a pretty universally accepted moral and not at all specific to the Ten Commandments. Same with 7, 8, and 9 which all pretty much fall under the category of valuing the truth - again, another moral that is about as universal as they come.
It's logical to think about how your actions affect yourself and others, to weigh up the benefits and risks of what you believe and how you behave as they relate to the people around you. But the Ten Commandments specifically? Nah. It kind of strikes me as "First you need to make sure that you worship me and let me explain why.... oh and by the way, don't kill people and stuff."
Morality is separate from religion. It would be illogical for me, someone who doesn't believe in God, to follow the Ten Commandments when the parts actually pertaining to morality are present and significant in my life otherwise.The first four indicate the reality of existence: Universal Consciousness. This is also known as Christ Consciousness
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
The others pertain to living in that reality.
The reality of existence is spirit/ love/ peace which equals the bliss or heaven which is potentially manifesting on earth if we understand it and apply it to action.
Take it or Leave it.Not really interested in a conversation are you?
You might want to look up the word "reality" in that dictionary I mentioned.
They might indicate your perceived reality of your existence, but not mine. Therefore it wouldn't make any sense for me to refer to the Ten Commandments as my moral compass.
Morality isn't dependent on religion or "Christ Consciousness" or whatever you want to call it.Religion is based on the reality of Spirit. Science verifies the reality of spirit.
The basis of spirit is consciousness.
Consciousness itself is evidence and proof of MTOReligion is based on a lot of things. I'm not sure what "science" you're referring to.
Are you implying that religion and consciousness are inseparable?Well yes, actually!
But, many people throughout history have misinterpreted the teachings of the Bible or even the Gita and do not understand their religion appropriately in the correct light… It should be seen in the light of spiritual consciousness.
Your lack of scientific knowledge is somewhat shocking. Science verifies no such thing. Science deals with reality. Measurable reality.
Science knows it cannot measure the essence of life. Man made tools are too gross.
Q Who can measure consciousness?
A. Consciousness can only be detected by/with consciousness.Dear me. Odd you asked any questions when you know everything.
This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.What is my religion and how does it cause conflict?
?
Very Curious
Atheists cannot disprove the existence of Spirit. Proof is all around us and within us.
My hovercraft is not. No wait, I don't have one.
Prove you don't have one then Kathryn. See??? It doesn't work like that.
The burden of proof is on the person stating that something exists. Therefore, the burden is not on atheists as they are not denying that God exists, they merely do not believe in God/s.
So, when you say you don't have a hovercraft, but "Joe Bloggs" says you do - it is up to Joe to prove that you have in fact got a hovercraft.Bring it on atheists. I'll be interested to see how atheism influences society. I'll be interested to see if individuals will be happier without the burdensome concept of God.
- and without the reality of God, as well.Gay couples in the US seem to be benefiting quite well.
Consider the dismal state of families. How many sad situations are children being raised in? I could tell you so many real life scenarios that would make you cry.
Do not commit adultery. Without God in the foreground of our lives, why would we follow this or any of The Ten Commandments?
WHY?
No, we will just be doing whatever we damn well choose.
Whatever seems right to ME.
- or MY view of the way humanity should be. And good luck to anyone who disagrees with ME.
TWISIAre you willing to clarify the correlation between a child being raised in a dismal environment and atheism? Because I certainly do not see any whatsoever.
As far as adultery goes...its human decency to actually commit to the person you pledged your life to. If you do not cheat on them because you fear gods wrath, you shouldnt be married to begin with.
Your logic falls flat on its face. How many atheists and people of other faiths are out there that lead happy lives and contribute to the betterment of society on a daily basis? I would imagine millions, none of them believe in your version of god or consequences, so why are they not out raping and pillaging the town? It might be because they are simply decent human beings....shocking right?What is the point of life without God?
what is the point?
There is literally N O point.
...as I said, we will slip into terrible times without God.
can't wait.
UGH!I find it saddening how people who lack belief in the whatever god you believe in have a much more positive outlook on life, yet you cannot seem to see past an invisible deity not existing because your life would somehow become meaningless all of a sudden.
I find it saddening as well. Sad to not see the deapths of life. There is more to the human eye. There is more. I know there is. We must have faith in Spirit. We must not give up our quest to verify the existence of Spirit. We can perceive God and we will perceive God if we keep trying to stay in touch with the ultimate reality: SPIRIT.
Hint: Consciousness is evidence of Spirit.Well done. Condescending. Holier than thou. Pretend concern. Claims to superiority. Instructions as to what everyone else should be doing. Very nice.
Odd how angry you are getting because of this. And that you see so much more clearly than non believers. How easy it was for you as well. Didn't need to do any work or think logically or anything.
Great example of why your beliefs cause constant conflicts.
The point is to enjoy it and not spend it counting down to our deaths when we may or may not reside eternally in heaven (or in my case, hell... because I'm such a terrible human being and am totally lost and without morals because I don't believe in God...).
I don't need a grand purpose. I don't need my life to mean anything more than it does. I love my life, I love people, I love the Earth and I think that it is so very beautiful and amazing. In the big picture, I am small and insignificant and that's okay. I get to raise a child and she gets to (hopefully) go on to love life and be happy just as I am. Why isn't that enough?
If you think the world is going to descend into madness because of atheism, then you're worrying over nothing. Most atheists I know value life completely because they believe it's all they've got. I would say that in a lot of cases, bad things happen because people DON'T value human life."Also, are you willing to identify the correlation between children being raised in dismal environments and atheism? Dont know if you didnt see my comment or you just outright ignored it."
Without a higher purpose families will produce restless, insecure offspring with no sense of true identity or knowledge of what to work toward. So many ideals have been tossed aside. Things we used to work toward. Wisdom is being sacrificed for freedom. Nothingness is replacing the somethingness of Family, Country and God. Without a sense of belonging to a place, culture or destiny what do you have?Who says that without God one has no culture, place or destiny? I have no faith, yet I have a strong sense of culture )actually in my case...cultures), an incredibly strong sense of belonging to a place (I will always come home to NZ, no matter where I've been...I WILL die here), and well, my destiny is mine to decide...and I'll make it the best damn thing I can.
You group all atheists into one gormless group, shuffling about like zombies, with no direction, no morals, no love for anything. Ignorance gets you nowhere fast, Kathryn. I know no atheists like this. I actually know a Christian or two like this (and not here..before anyone cries I'm judging them).
My higher purpose is to provide the best life possible for my family - my wife, my child (and subsquent children) and in the future their children. (as well as looking after my parents should they need this in their later years).
One does not need God to have morals. Stop trying to make out that atheists have no morals, because they have no God. In fact, morals may mean more if you are moral because you have morals, not moral because God tells you how to be moral.
I'm tired of you trying to make out that because you have faith, your morals are better than those you assume we don't have. No one needs to tell us to have morals....we just do.You don't seem to rely on facts, or even common sense much do you?
How many atheists are you friends with/talk to every now and then Kathryn?God is a reality.
Not a hallucination.
The Ten commandments are needed as a guide to stay on a path toward actually knowing God.
It is what I believe based on reading the words of Jesus and other avatars.
Am I not allowed to believe it?
Do I have to prove it?
I cannot prove it to people who are anti-God.
I am only sharing with those who have ears to hear
and eyes to read.
Sorry about the blasts produced by the bombs of naysayers.Naysayers, it seems to me that you are the naysayer. I explain reality to you and you say no.
No, Way, Rad Man.
There is a God.
Why do you insist there is not one?
Your insistence is proof that your apparatus for detecting the Spirit of Life/Consciousness is out of order. Completely shut off and rusty. As in not working in the slightest. It is as you wish it to be.
No one, as far as I know, is saying you are not allowed to live your life without being aware of the source of your very existence.
But, having awareness of God is a definite possibility and I am keeping the flame of that possibility alive for others who by chance may be following along in these Forums.
I actually imagine there are those who follow along and that is where my craziness comes in!!!
You are allowed to believe whatever you want without proving it, just like everyone else.
What you aren't allowed to do is assert that your belief is true over others, as well as assert that there is no point to life if one does not follow YOUR religious dogma with absolutely zero evidence and expect people to take you seriously. So far, you haven't provided any logical arguments whatsoever, and any that could be considered logical fall flat on their face when provided with the most basic of counters.Backup your claim.
The first three, agreed. But it is actually about obedience to priests. The last seven has nothing to do with god.
If you want to flaunt it in a public discussion forum; then you have to "prove".
Thanks for admitting that you have no rational arguments.
Usually what a believer does is call anyone who ask to back up the claims, satan. You are saying that those who don't agree with your irrational claims are deaf and blind? Good to know that you really practice what you preach."You are saying that those who don't agree with your irrational claims are deaf and blind? Good to know that you really practice what you preach."
No, I guess you never read the Bible. Jesus would often add, for those who have "ears to hear," after a talk or story.
I believe he meant for those who are WILLING to listen.
I said the same… thats what I meant. I changed it from hearing to seeing since that is the sense we are using here. Sorry. Forcing is the last thing I want to do... ever.
Only each person can find and prove God to themselves. I can't prove God through words keyboarded over the internet.
I can only provide avenues which I believe in, based on what I have read. When I give people example of miracles in my life or responses from God, no one believes me. So I don't bother.
I would provide/discuss avenues if anyone was truly interested.
But one can find their own sources of info.
So, I guess we're done here.
Its a wrap.Since the last miracle someone mentioned on here included god sending someone to be sexually harassed so they could win over a years worth of salary from a court case, well you can imagine how ridiculous that seems.
Miracles people of faith claim that happen in their lives arent even exclusive to them half the time, or dont actually seem to make any kind of sense in regards to god. It is up to you to prove that not only was it a real miracle, but a miracle caused by whichever god you believe in.
But it does not seem you are willing to do that, or have been able to properly do so in the past. Saying it was a miracle because it was incredibly unlikely doesnt make it so, and it certainly does not mean it was from any god. And before you go there again, you are free to believe it was a miracle as much as you want, personal opinions never have to be proven to anyone to be valid. But to then go out and tell people your beliefs are true and then complain that no one takes you seriously when you cannot prove it is somewhat mind boggling."But to then go out and tell people your beliefs are true..."
I have always maintained my beliefs are true to me.
I learned early on to add,
"The Way I See It."
Then some atheists made it clear that my beliefs are those of a crazy person.
So, then I started adding "Pardon My Craziness."
At what point am I allowed to say anything about religion on a religious forum?
Maybe you need to stop reading this thread.
I am trying to close it down, anyway... in case you didn't realize that fact.
!What reason is there that you would feel the need to?
EDIT: Also, you should specify when you edit a comment with something after a reply has already been made, since it only looks like I am exasperating things when I replied to an unedited version of this comment. And sorry, I couldnt tell that you were trying to close things down with your back and forth with Michael there.
But sure, I have no problem stopping contribution to someone who is attempting to be subtly dishonest and trying to make me out to be the bad guy.Because it is irritating to every single person who has responded.
Also The belief or non-belief in God is a personal matter.
I am done!
I was only discussing the logicalness of following 4-6 of The Ten Commandments.
A no brainer anyway. Blame RA who was arguing with me about this.Stop caring so much what everyone else thinks. Your ideas are just as valid as anyone else's.
Let them think you're crazy. ho cares? Everyone thinks I am, and their probably right. But I don't care. I will keep expressing my ideas.Its not that I care what they think. I really do believe that the belief or non-belief in God is a personal matter.
The discussion was about The Six Commandments as being good as boundaries to help promote happiness and peace in one's life.
We had an interesting discussion about this and now it is time to splash the water on these last embers. Good Night!Do you discuss your personal matters in public?
You created a thread knowing full well what direction it would most likely go in and then become upset at the responses you get? What sense does that make? If you want to blame someone, for whatever random reason, look in the mirror.
Don't know if this should be a joke or just sad.I haven't been part of the forums long but RA sure seems to be a popular guy.
I think you seem like a lovely person, Kathryn. I think you dove into the deep end with this thread, though. I'll respect your wishes and stop contributing. Unless you want me to write some more about Santa...Nothing wrong with ribald humor. I think you could start a new thread just for it…
Yes?It's interesting, because you can't nobody can?
It's like a drug addict saying "I'll be interested to see if individuals will be happier without the burdensome morphine".
If the belief in god is a "personal" matter - why keep insisting on bringing it to a public discussion?
Tell you what - you stop publicly spouting about your belief - I stop telling you it is divisive nonsense - deal?
Great that none of this division and conflict is your fault though - always the ones that don't believe you huh? Sounds familiar.
So are you jesus? The charlatans who wrote that said that in jesus name, so?
Not simply 'willing to listen', but believing it without questioning. It simply says you are the authority and should not be questioned but believed.
Other than your confirmation bias have you got any rational arguments that supports your god hypothesis?
Yea you are simply believing that the charlatans have your good at heart.
Please provide.
It's crap.
And I'm sure you have just loads of evidence to back up that claim.
You know, this started out as an okay conversation (albeit slightly scattered) but now it's just turning into baseless preaching and generalizations.My evidence is what I see all around me here in America, LA area to be specific.
I think you are being less than honest here. Perhaps you could give us a specific time where things were "better."? A decade will do.
I would, if you had the eyes to read.
But, you do not.
So, why would I go on?
No reason what so ever.
I am a reasonable person, after all.I have eyes to read.
So you cannot back up your statements with anything then. OK
Of course not as you have nothing to offer.
You are doing a fantastic job of convincing everyone that's not the case.
Just another dogmatic religionist.
Oh yes, anecdotal evidence coming from someone with an agenda... highly regarded as the most reliable source of evidence.
Have you not even considered that what you see in your very tiny LA area does not reflect on what's happening in the world every single day? Have you not considered that although some areas of the world experience more violence than others, many of these events are not as significant as you would make them out to be considering how many people there are in the world and what acts are committed.
Do you go out and commit acts of violence? How about members of your family? Your friends and anyone else you've ever encountered? Do they commit acts of violence every hour of every day?
You simply can't base a worldview on just the very tiny minority of people who do commit these acts, you base it on the good, decent folks you associate with every hour of every day of your life, just like so many others in the world.
That's the real evidence.
Oh dear me. One would think that if we simple believe in God there would be no divorce, unfortunately for you the statistics tell a much different story.
Religion % have been divorced
Jews 30%
Non-denominational ** 34%
Baptists 29%
Born-again Christians 27%
Mainline Protestants 25%
Mormons 24%
Catholics 21%
Lutherans 21%
Other Christians 24%
Atheists, Agnostics 21%
Now that you are no longer ignorant of the facts, perhaps you will rethink you thoughts. I've been married for 24 years and have never cheated on her nor do I have any intentions of ever doing so, and I don't need any God to tell me not to. All I need is an understanding not wanting to hurt those that I love. An understanding that ID or superego do not rule my mind. This is another example of how people who allow the superego to run their mind also all the ID to do whatever it likes even at the expense of those they love. Please don't pretend we need God to tell us to behave, because clearly that's not working.Correct me if I am wrong but, isn't your wife religious? I thought she was Catholic. Would not the success of your marriage be partly due to her?
If that statistics can be believed then divorce has nothing to do with being religious or not. If I remember correctly there was a hubber, a divorced christian, who could explain how Jesus exempt divorce at least in her case.
" Divorcing " in its practical outcome is mainly a matter of character and integrity of BOTH of you.. Religion has nothing to do with it unless cowards want to justify their actions already premeditated. You want to stay in your marriage? Work on it; LOVE is a hard work, not a cheaply abused phrase " I love you" - then you lie,( especially in English speaking culture : I love my dog, I love my cake, I love this weather and so on...). Why are people going to Jesus for their divorce justification now, after they failed to faithfully execute ALL his commandments?! ( Don't ask me haw we survived 55 years in marriage covenant, and everyday it gets better: put God first in your life and you will know your answer.)
I can't stay in marriage because I am not married.
You just restated what I said except the last one. God is a delusion, so no point.
Sure, look at the stats, both Catholics and Atheist run at 21%.
I'm of course not saying that this is a hard and fast rule, what I'm saying is we need to know why we don't feel around on our spouses. Religion simply tells us not to, just as Kathryn described. She then somehow fail to understand why Atheists don't just do anything we want, why because perhaps she doesn't know why. I've heard this argument so many times and it saddens me for so many reasons. It's an immature moral/ethical understanding. It's like a child who thinks the only reason one doesn't steal or hit is because you might get caught.
BTW, I don't think my wife identifies with Catholicism any more. She may have read enough about the corruption in the Vatican to see the light.I simply think statistics thrown out are bad. Too many variables in being human to be able to point to a smoking gun for any behavior patterns.
Again, the only way we know something is working or not is studying it. Statistically religion is not making people hold on to their marriages. It doesn't keep them out of prison or make them better people for reasons Kathryn gave. How many times have we heard someone say that without God there would be nothing stopping from murder or adultery. This was taught to them by their religion and it's wrong and not working.
I agree with you on the fact that her claims lack any fact. However, if we throw out statistics which don't fully support the point we are attempting to make, I'm not sure how we would be perceived as different.
What statistics? Was it done by an unbiased source, how large was it and where were the samples taken from?
Argh. I get where you are coming from but no one is the sum total of one thought running through their brains. I don't think so, anyway.
So you would do whatever you choose and break all the commandments if there were no god?
Do you respect your parents because god told you to?
I do it because I love them not because anyone told me to and I am doing it since my birth.
Why go on the attack, when I was merely asking you to prove what is often requested of us as Atheists.
SMH
So... you think that morality is intertwined with the belief in God and the spiritual aspect of consciousness. Do you think then that telling the truth is right because God says it's right, or do you think God says it because he knows it's right?
To fool somemone is not in accordance to love. Logically, it is wrong to lie. It creates the hell of discordance, etc.
I'm not sure that answers my question.
Did God decide what is right/good/logical and that is why we believe it to be that way? Or does God simply apply logic when making the rules?God??? what does God have to do with what we are saying???
We were talking about the reasonableness of following the Ten Commandments. What are you talking about?I have no idea what God could possibly have to do with a discussion about the Ten Commandments.
What is your question? What is it you are trying to find out? Happy to respond to a specific question if I know why its being asked.
I thought we went over this already. I said it wouldn't be logical for most people to live life according to the Ten Commandments since a lot of it is God-specific. Then you said you that the God part was the reality part. Then you said religion and consciousness were inseparable. So I assumed that God was relevant in your interpretation of the commandments. Though I've now come to the conclusion that I have no idea what you're trying to get at here.
If it's a simple question of "are the non-God parts of the commandments reasonable to follow?" then the simple answer is yes, because they're just universally accepted morals. They have nothing to do with God specifically. But seeing as nearly half of the commandments are related to a belief in God, then I would say it's illogical to follow the commandments as someone who doesn't believe in God.…the way I see it, the "God parts" are misunderstood by most people.
You are not talking to a typical theist.
Unless you understand where I am coming from, you will not be able to accept my answer, so why would I bother? You want to argue against the typical. I have stated many times elsewhere that I have been an atheist.
Well, I was asking the question in order to better understand where you're coming from. It's a question asked by Socrates regarding the Divine Command Theory, which I thought might be relevant to this conversation. Though I get the feeling that if I keep trying to guess what's relevant to this conversation that my brain will start to melt out of my ears, so... nevermind.
"Divine command theory is a meta-ethical theory which proposes that an action's status as morally good is equivalent to whether it is commanded by God. The theory asserts that what is moral is determined by what God commands, and that to be moral is to follow his commands."
Socrates asked a question in regards to this theory? What was it? Keep in mind that in Socrates time there were many gods.
Very Curious
A variation of what I was trying to ask you: "Does God command this particular action because it is morally right, or is it morally right because God commands it?"
But if you don't think that God actually has anything to do with the Ten Commandments then you're right, it's probably not relevant. I brought it up because you suggested that religion and consciousness were inseparable, so I wanted to hear your thoughts on this.Consciousness has to do with religion in that religion helps us connect to the Spirit of God. Why is this good? Because connecting to the Spirit of God is good for our consciousness. What do we get out of it? Joy and Peace.
The Ten Commandments allows us to connect and stay connected to Spirit. Thats all.
TWISINonsense. Surely asking questions with no intention of listening to the answers and instead finding a platform to push your irrational beliefs is lying?
FAUOA"Oh Dear' is usually said by a female. Its so cute when a Righteous Atheist dude says it.
FAUYAWhere have you been. We were starting to miss you! Oops, I'm lying.
Still curious? Wonder why when you have all the answers.
SAWTANow you're talking about God again after you just asked me what God had to do with this conversation.
Commence brain explosion.You wanted to know what religion had to do with consciousness.
When I say "God" I mean the reality of Spirit (Of God) which manifests in all life and nature, on the earth and in the universe. Not the concept of an imagined commanding deity.Thats it - keep on using words that mean something else to show us how much you know.
I agree, it is a matter of reality vs imagined concepts.
Not really. I suggest looking up the word "concept" while you are in that dictionary I suggested, looking up all the other words you don't seem to understand.
concept
concept |ˈkänˌsept| noun
an abstract idea; a general notion: Dictionary
How did I misuse it?Maybe to you, but not to everyone. Some know OOOF through direct perception. Believe it or not. I happen to believe one can get in touch with Spirit through meditation and prayer. Who are you to deny me of my right to believe that God is a concrete reality and not just a concept?
Righteous Atheist: Why take precious time to combat us believers? You want us to believe in Nothing? Why?
Very CuriousBecause your beliefs cause constant conflicts.
How? My beliefs are neutral to you or anyone else. It is how you react that makes them positive or negative.
Ah - everybody else's fault then. Gotcha.
This is a good example of the sort of dishonesty that gets people's backs up and causes conflicts.
You specifically asked me about "us believers" and lumped yourself in with "all believers":
Then when I responded you made it seem as though I had singled you out and defended your beliefs only.
Can you honestly say that god-belief does not cause conflicts?" anyone's" beliefs, then. GOSH!
Check it, RA: You are the ONE worked up over it.
PS are you a Gemini… ? You seem to love words words and more words.No - I am not a Gemini. But - I understand you are not actually interested in an answer when you claim to be curious. Just want to argue. Thanks for making my point for me.
How does anyones's beliefs create conflict for anyone else?
Tell you what - you answer my questions before I answer another question you intend to argue about?
Your Question: "Can you honestly say that god-belief does not cause conflicts?"
My Answer: Yes, for myself. I cannot answer for you or another individual or the whole of humanity, as Radman keeps mentioning.
My Question: What kind of conflicts are you referring to?Not again. Answer the questions I already asked that you chose to ignore.
Your Question: "Can you honestly say that god-belief does not cause conflicts?"
My Answer: Yes, for myself. I cannot answer for you or another individual or the whole of humanity, as Radman keeps mentioning.
My Question: What kind of conflicts are you referring to?
I am quite aware of how the church and all its dogmas are easily absorbed by the masses and does cause conflict. But, it is up to each individual to find the truth. Let us individuals, here, search and reveal our discoveries!That was not an honest answer. Please answer the question I asked instead of pretending that you are no longer part of "us believers."
Repeating:
I am quite aware of how the church and all its dogmas are easily absorbed by the masses and does cause conflict. But, it is up to each individual to find the truth. Let us individuals, here, search and reveal our discoveries!So - you agree god belief does cause conflicts. Excellent. Now you might understand why I choose to spend some of my time combatting it. Don't you think that is a worthwhile endeavor?
Yes, but not when you try to shut ME down! of course! ha ha ha!
I do appreciate dogma busters.
Thats not what I peddle, in my humble opinion. But you have a right to your opinion, I must grumblingly and grudgingly accept.
Fine.Of course.
Having said that - I have never tried to shut anyone down. Just pointed out that their beliefs are largely nonsense and asked that the more dogma-based preachers keep their fear mongering to themselves.
But - you all get into this dogma habit. Several times you have taken the trouble to tell me what is good for me. This is the problem when speaking for god - you all think it must apply to everyone. This is why god belief causes conflicts.
You might want to pick a name other than God for your Real Life Spirit Thing, since God is pretty much reserved for that imagined commanding deity. It's a tad confusing.
Well, I agree. Thats why I often call it Mighty Triple O! Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient Force of the Universe.
L O L ! Well, He doesn't mind. He is personal, He is impersonal, He is close, He is far. It is a mystery and cannot be understood intellectually. But, it is fun to try…
Thanks for joining us, Aime from Canada.
It is logical to follow The Ten Commandments for the individual. It protects his own happiness to follow them. (…they also help to alleviate the need for any sort of fear.
)
Yes or No?No. They are mostly not applicable to me and do not affect my happiness.
Yet, you do follow the ones past #4 out of your own sense of decency and rightness and common sense… one would assume.
So - we have now discarded four of the ten as not being applicable.
Exactly how do the other six make me happy? And no - I have broken some of them on occasion. Wouldn't you when the need arose? Would you not steal to feed your children if you had to?Yes, without the first four, the next six are hard to follow.
Without faith in God, one would steal to feed their children.
If one had faith in God, one would not stoop to such desperation.
One would keep his morals and offer to work doing anything.
This would maintain one's pride, dignity and self confidence.
... not to mention one's peace and joy of life. What would the children think? It would certainly teach them to steal.. and a whole downward spiral would thereby ensue.So - you would let your children starve to death rather than steal if you had no other choice? Wow!
But -look at your reply - just another religionist claiming that belief in god makes one a more moral person than non believers.
This is why your beliefs cause conflict.I would have a choice. God gives us a choice. For Gosh Sakes!
By looking within one's soul, there are always choices. You cannot just do what you need to do without considering the consequences to someone else. That is not love. You are breaking the code of love and respect for another's property. You are justifying something which if others witness, might copy and start a terrific trend of stealing for the sake of their children! It could become a massive widespread problem!!!
This is actually what you are advocating.
… and I am the one causing conflicts?Letting your children starve is love? Not really interested in listening to you preach any more dogma at me. I find it causes nothing but conflict.
Oh, I see, Righteous Atheist. Let us steal to feed our children.
Let us love our children more than anyone else in the world. Now you are advocating egotism. Great.
Those will be some special children, all right.And there you go again preaching the holier than thou dogma at me. This is why your beliefs cause conflict.
Why am I recalling the days of nickels on LP's?
Because you asked me to explain why your beliefs cause conflict, so I did, and then after I asked you to stop preaching holier than thou dogma at me you continued to do so?
Here is my last comment:
It is logical to follow all of The Ten Commandments.
They are beneficial for oneself and for humanity, whether one wants to acknowledge it or not.
THINK about it.
FinisI have thought about it. You are wrong. THINK?
Please......... Have fun splashing around in the shallow end of the pool, RA.
I am a swimming teacher. Can't help it.
I tried to get you to float in the deep end.
You just refused to go there.
So, stay in the shallow end with your life-jacket of atheism. You need it for some reason… as you mentioned, maybe you were corrupted by fear mongering. Thats too bad. There is another way. A more logical approach. I was just sharing it. Really.
TWISIYes, yes I know you are better than me. You have made that perfectly clear. This is why your religion always causes conflicts.
I would say that letting my kid starve to death in the name of God would be far more egotistical and selfish than stealing the bare necessities to keep her alive until I found a better solution. My morals don't centre around pride, dignity, and self-confidence. My morals centre around what's doing best for human beings - you know, the ones who are actually inarguably here, and real, and don't need made up acronyms. Say I stole $20 worth of food from a different supermarket every week until I found a job. Is that $20 loss from a chain store really not worth saving a human life? I would obviously rather not steal, and under thousands of circumstances I would not, but when it comes to saving a life... that's a no-brainer for me.
This reminds of the Heinz dilemma, have you heard of it? If not, here's a link: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_dilemma
I'd be interested to see what your response would be. You can probably guess what mine would be as I've used the same reasoning in the situation above.
Edit: I also wanted to add that I wouldn't steal anything if it were only me that were starving to death. It's when a child who depends on me and needs me to make that decision to save her life that I would take the extra step.Commandments are not suggestions. Boundaries are in place for our own good. One must follow them. Of course, this is easier said than done. However, I would not steal the medicine. End of story. Would my wife die? Yes, But God would bring her to heaven. If I stole the medicine, she would know it and be ashamed and feel selfish. It would be a bad example to all. My wife would be the type to want to set a good example to all around her.
God would take care of the druggist's Bad Karma. Shame on the druggist!Would I take/steal medicine to save a life. You are darn right I would. I'd then pay them back, but life is precious and people would understand. You're just guessing that God exists, if your wrong you just let someone die, if you are right you just killed someone and broke a commandment.
If I was your wife, I would rather you let me die. What good is a life if it stands for nothing much.
That's sad. Life is all we know. Material things like money can be replaced, life can't.
As far as you believe. I believe there is more to life on earth. If we came from somewhere, we go back to somewhere. If you watch a baby, they know so much… it seems to me they have been here before… they know what is up and what they are to become: Themselves… the soul never dies. As I believe. Am I allowed to believe this Rad Man? Does it cause conflict to you?
I hope not.
To refresh the Original Post:
It is logical to follow The Ten Commandments for the sake of individual happiness and for the harmony of humanity as a whole.
Yes or No?That is not what you asked. Dear me.
No.
The first 4 are specific to the christian god, meaning they have no impact on people of no faith or other faiths. The next 6 are mostly pretty common throughout the world. I cant imagine someone on the opposite side of the planet who has never heard of any kind of religion would automatically want to disrespect their parents at every turn (unless they are absolutely not worthy of respect at all), murder people, steal a bunch of crap, cheat on their spouse willy nilly, or lie about their neighbors in a court of law. As far as covet goes, you would have to talk to a highly egotistical person about that one.
There is also the fact that those commandments are incredibly vague. I shouldnt murder? So does that mean I can go out and beat the crap out of as many people as I want provided I dont kill them? I shouldnt steal? I guess I will just take it and return it someday before I die. As long as it gets returned, it isnt stealing right? Dont bear false witness? Doesnt mean I have to tell the whole truth. The truth can be just as damaging as a lie if not told properly.
Example: "Was John Smith in the house during the time of the murder?"
"Yes he was"
"Well clearly he is guilty".
No one mentioned that John Smith was listening to loud music and getting drunk in the basement at the time. No one lied, but now John Smith is the prime suspect.
I wouldnt really want to interact much with someone who doesnt do any of those things because they fear divine retribution, rather than simply not wanting to be a jerk/psychopath. You shouldnt have to be told not to do those things. Somewhat related to that, I saw a video asserting that since Atheists do not follow the Quran (substitute it for the Bible if you wish) and as such lack morals, that they would have no problems drinking their dad's sperm since there is a lack of moral consequence.
That is some pretty terrifying logic.So, lets throw them out. Lets not consider the spirit of them. Lets forget we have judges and lawyers who specialize in the art of logic and reason. Lets just slip back into the dark ages of BCE, shall we?
GOSH!
Can't wait.
I have a feeling I won't have to wait long.
Note to self:
Get out your spear…
and your rock and your towel.. (right RA?)Commandments - spiritual
Judges and lawyers - reason and logic
I am not sure what correlation you see between those.Judges and lawyers specialize in the art of reason. Valid reasoning is based on love. Without God we do not know what love is or how it is to be applied. Its all spiritual.
You must not talk to a lot of people outside your circle of belief then.
Well heres the difference with my statement versus yours (aside from the fact that I talk to plenty of people on here that have the complete opposite views of my own), until you prove otherwise.
There are plenty of people that were raised in atheistic homes. Are you saying those homes lacked love? Because if so, that is quite the statement to make, which would also enforce my own that you do not talk to many people outside your circle of belief. Before god was even a widely held concept, people were still raised with love and care. Do animals have any concept of your particular god? I am sure a mama bear will eat me alive if I went anywhere near her cub. Is it because god gave them the knowledge of love, or because they instinctively (meaning no outside force) know that they should love and care for their cub?
EDIT: Also, are you willing to identify the correlation between children being raised in dismal environments and atheism? Dont know if you didnt see my comment or you just outright ignored it.Humans can go wrong very easily since they do not have the instincs that say a bear does.
Interesting. Thanks for answering. I must say, I don't think you're as different from "typical theists" as you seem to think you are. That's not meant as a slight, just the more you say here the more it seems like your views don't differ that much from what you'd expect to see in most believers.
Not seeing any appreciable difference myself. Obey what the bible says unless it says women are not to preach. Many religionists try and disguise what they are. All it takes is the right situation and there they are, forcing dogma down your throat for your own good.
Thats why believers, no matter what their (legitimate) religion, are mostly on the right track.
There is truth and truth is revealed through God's prophets and avatars.
As I Understand.I actually don't think religion has anything to do with how good/moral someone is. If someone needs a set of rules to live by in order to avoid burning in hell then I would argue they're not on the right track at all.
No burning in hell. Burning in one's own consciousness/conscience or in the reaping of one's own bad karma.
Okay, fine. Acting morally for the sake of not burning in hell, or getting bad karma, or consequences in general... I don't think that's a good thing. That sort of stuff should be instrinsically motivated.
Fear of consequences is good motivation. Avoiding suffering is natural.
What is an example of intrinsic motivation?
We can so easily hurt others without meaning to.. We think it will do no harm to pretend, to manipulate, to steal, to lie, to commit adultry...For a god of love it doesn't seem so good...
...for a God of love, He just wants us to live lives of creativity, joy and abundance. Not lives of selfishness and greed; Of no boundaries; Of too much freedom; Of sneaking, hiding and killing. For a God of love to instruct us how to have life and avoid death of not only body, but of spirit... its pretty good.
If you say so. It would seem, though, that if He truly loved us he would "fix" the problem without invoking eternal fire as a motivation, that's all.
That is not in the NT!
If He fixed everything we would not have the capacity to guide our own wills. I mean, if he fixed everything… oh my gosh… I can't even imagine life if he went around fixing everything for us.
This does not sound like a wilderness response.It's called "heaven". The perfect place, with god in control there just as He is here. No?
And you don't have the ability to guide your life anyway - not with the motivator of hell hanging over every move you make.Its a turn of the dial, wilderness… just turn the dial toward the positive and not the negative.
If you follow The Ten Commandments you will have a pretty much problem-free life. What about that?Heaven is a place within us. It is a spotless sunshiny consciousness.
According to My Way of Understanding.
Pardon My Craziness
Take it or Leave it.
But, it IS what Jesus said... if you happen to believe that silly story... which I do.
“The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:20-21).Pretending negative is actually positive does not change it. It's still negative however much you try to convince yourself otherwise.
And if you use free will and do as you were created to do you will burn forever. How 'bout THAT?Oh brother, you have a negative mind set, wilderness and there is nothing I or anyone else can do to make it positive. Because for the logical mathematician types, every negative removes a positive.
The fact remains, freedom and discipline are two sides of the same coin. You cannot have one without the other. The discipline and boundaries of the Ten Commandments give us freedom.Don't know about a negative mind set - I try hard to see the good side of everything.
But that doesn't mean I'll pretend black is white merely because I wish it were. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck it is probably a duck. And the biblical representation of the Christian god does not look like anything but a devil. It talks like a devil, acts like a devil and its acts look like the work of the devil. I shall not pretend it is anything but that.
So when you pretend that a creature made of love COULD help us all but instead motivates us to behave differently than our nature with the threat of hell and then indicate it is worthy of my worship...well...you may find such a thing worth worship but I do not. There is a major problem with Christianity as a whole and pretending it isn't there doesn't make it go away.Don't you know that I dislike dogma as much as you? I advocate Reality. Not imagination, or maya.
According to Me.
Instrinsic motivation = being driven by something because you value it on a personal level. No promise of rewards or consequences, just doing/believing in something because it's important to YOU.
So, let's go with "thou shall not commit adultery". Intrinsically Motivated Guy doesn't cheat on his wife because he values their marriage. Extrinsically Motivated Guy doesn't cheat on his wife because he's afraid of going to hell or doesn't want to deal with a guilty conscience. I can tell you which guy I'd rather be married to, and based on motivation research, I can tell you which one is in all likelihood going to cheat first.Fear of consequences is not bad. Why are you insisting on intrinsic motivation as being superior? If we were angels we would all be in heaven. It is just part of the human condition. We could all aim for intrinsic motivation and base all our actions on love, but as we know ... that is the ideal and not the reality for most.
I might not steal something only because I dread going to jail! But I agree, if I dread stealing from someone and causing his loss that would be a more enlightened reason.
Not all are there.When it comes to something like morality, I think intrinsic motivation is completely, 100000% superior.
Sure, extrinsic motivation works pretty well for students who study because they don't want to fail a test. But when it comes to how you live your life and how you treat others, referring to external fear or reward as a motivator doesn't exactly strike me as being ideal.
But that's just me.Yes, but you are more angelic than most.
I actually advocate intrinsic motivation as being way superior for students as well. I think students should study and when they are ready to take the test, they take the test.
One way to have a good life is to follow Karma Yoga. This is basically what Jesus taught. It is the path of regaining our spiritual selves by behaving rightly and not causing violence or harm to others. Who benefits the most? We do!
Bhagavad Gita
Krisna to Arjuna:
"I am the self, Arjuna
seated in the heart of all beings
I am the beginning and the life span
of beings and their end as well.
Of the sky gods, I am Vishnu
of the heavenly lights, the sun
Marichi, chief of the wind gods,
among the stars I am the moon.
of the Vedas I am the hymns
Indra among the gods;
the mind among the six senses:
the consciousness of all beings."
Etc.
Krishna, like Jesus, is an avatar of God.
Just sharing.Wilderness,
In other words, according to what you wrote:
God does not accept us as we are.
God punishes us for being as we are
God chooses to do nothing to help us become better than we are.
God expects us to love him for WHAT?
It would indeed be better if God could accept us as we are, not punish us, but instead help us and not expect us to worship him unless we are motivated to do such a thing.
I think God himself would agree with You, wilderness.
But, I believe God does accept us! What father does not love his children? Furthermore, I do not believe He punishes us, but lets us learn from the school of hard knocks and the reaping of our Karma. In so doing He gives the gift of self guided free-will.
I believe He set forth the commandments as a guideline to follow to help us avoid making mistakes in living our lives. Our choices alone create happiness or unhappiness for ourselves and others.
To me, He has given us so much as far as these bodies, our lives, the beautiful things in nature, the world and the universe, that we should be "as happy as kings." Our thankfulness and awe of His magnificence could motivate our devotion and could motivate our willingness to embrace the Spirit of all that exists and surrender our ego in favor of His love and power. What do we get through willing surrender/devotion?
True Joy of Life and ultimately, Freedom.
The Way I See It.
Pardon My CrazinessThank goodness the sort of love you are pushing is becoming less prevalent as your religion dies out.
Uh, I don't think its even started yet. But it will… probably not in your lifetime, so you have nothing to worry about. Enjoy your up and coming atheist movement.
I will thanks. Who knows - might even get some right wing religionists thinking for a change.
I'll be watching this reality show, for sure!
For instance here are the Boy Scout oaths, etc.:
from:
http://usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsoathlaw.asp
Boy Scout Oath or Promise
On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.
Note that the Boy Scout Oath has traditionally been considered to have three promises. Those three promises are delineated by the semicolons in the Oath, which divide it into three clauses. The three promises of the Scout Oath are, therefore:
Duty to God and country,
Duty to other people, and
Duty to self
DUTY TO GOD AND COUNTRY: Your family and religious leaders teach you to know and serve God. By following these teachings, you do your duty to God.
Men and women of the past worked to make America great, and many gave their lives for their country. By being a good family member and a good citizen, by working for your country's good and obeying its laws, you do your duty to your country. Obeying the Scout Law means living by its 12 points.
DUTY TO OTHER PEOPLE: Many people need help. A cheery smile and a helping hand make life easier for others. By doing a Good Turn daily and helping when you're needed, you prove yourself a Scout and do your part to make this a better world.
DUTY TO SELF: Keeping yourself physically strong means taking care of your body. Eat the right foods and build your strength. Staying mentally awake means learn all you can, be curious, and ask questions. Being morally straight means to live your life with honesty, to be clean in your speech and actions, and to be a person of strong character.
Boy Scout Law
A Scout is:
Trustworthy,
Loyal,
Helpful,
Friendly,
Courteous,
Kind,
Obedient,
Cheerful,
Thrifty,
Brave,
Clean,
and Reverent.
Boy Scout Motto
Be Prepared!
Boy Scout Slogan
Do a Good Turn Daily!
The Outdoor Code
As an American, I will do my best to -
Be clean in my outdoor manners
Be careful with fire
Be considerate in the outdoors, and
Be conservation minded.And don't forget to ban gays and atheists from joining.
And girls
Funny story though....I was all three of the G's that Scouts don't permit - Godless, Girl and Gay....except I was a Scout...20yrs ago.
New Zealand's just a little more progressive than most, I guess. (To be honest, I'd not quite figured out why I preferred boys to be friends rather than 'going steady'...until a little while later...but hey)
Interesting you should quote the Boy Scouts....one of the most judgemental, and exclusionary groups for children made in the name of God.
You know they only allowed gay scouts this year....under pressure from the public.
Gay leaders....nope.
Girls???? NOPE.
Atheists? NOPE.
If you are one of the Three Gs you aren't allowed in - Gay, Girl or Godless.
Though, I do have to say....in New Zealand 20yrs ago.....I was actually ALL THREE, and a scout. (I just hadn't worked out why I didn't like boys like the rest of my friends....that was a year or three later).
So, morally, where do you stand on exclusion of CHILDREN who may have been deemed as gay? You okay with children being segregated from their friends, and other boys, because someone is uncomfortable with the notion of someone's God given sexuality??
Or the exclusion of Girls - whats wrong with a female being able to look after herself in the bush? What if she gets lost on a bush walk...is she to just sit and wait for a big burly bloke to come rescue her?
But hey - other than the Duty to God - I have always lived by the other laws of Scouting - before I was a scout as well as after.....but, I'm not religious in the slightest. So....what is your point?Ahhhh I see - you didn't have one.
Just because you believe and that fact makes you feel as though no one could be as moral as you doesn't make it true. We are moral with God...which if you really want to look at it could be considered a more pure form- no one is telling us we have to be - we just are. But we don't view our morality as better or worse than any other.
It's only you doing that
You don't want to listen unless someone is backing up yr story. Increasing yr knowledge of all things would be more helpful to you than preaching.
But hey - I'm out - I've better things to do than argue....like helping people (without God telling me too - imagine that)
God is an actual reality whether you want to acknowledge Him or not.
You can choose to be ignorant of God if you so choose. I am not advocating ignorance because there are definite advantages to knowing God.
Thats all.You are an example of some one who knows god? I will pass thanks.
What is the advantage of having a delusion or hallucination?
Drugs can help in getting the same, is that advantageous?
Anti-Godists, have a great day. Your bombs are getting to me.
I dont recall stating or even implying that I was anti god, but nice of you to assume things.
I'm not Anti-God either...I just don't believe in your interpretation, or anyone elses, of God or Gods. Doesn't mean I'm anti them.
What I am Anti - is people pushing their beliefs on others, particularly to the extent where they seek to deny me or mine the same rights they enjoy. Atheists have never tried to deny anyone anything other than the ability to force their religion on another, which no one has a right to do to anyone.
Pushing your belief as the only truth and anyone who doesn't believe as you do as "immoral" is one such example of the things I am anti.
I in fact love learning about religion...all of them. So much for ANTI God/s.
But to quote someone in the internet:
Religion is like a p***s....it's fine to have one, it fine to be proud of it, but if you start whipping it out in public and shoving it down my or my children's throats we have a problem.
Thanks for your posts Michael. I would not have kept it up if not for you.
BFNThis conversation is messed-up: the comments befall oddly not to right spot; My confirmation to a "good" answer meant to be to Aime F..." this started out as an okay conversation..." Now this " Thanks for your posts Michael. I would not have kept up if not for you. BFN. ( Exempt me please, from any further conspiracy.)
Oh, sorry MM.
I meant you are the one God believer in our midst and it has been inspiring to hear from you. Sorry if not mutual.
KLHit does relate to that part which isn't clearly stated , like BFN and such...
That is: Bye For Now!
what is: "and such?"
- what is "conspiracy" you mention?
Are you really bothered because I cannot accept that name?
Did you not appreciate my post quoting Krishna? (If so, I understand.)
Just WonderingWe are dealing here with a living Master of the Universe - the Creator if you wish, -tragically enough called "God" for lack of human words to contain His greatness and uniqueness in His power and will to keep up with the original intention of having His man on the planet Earth according to His design. The Ten Commandments in first place aren't subjected to any reduction by con discussion . Their powerful conviction is sufficient enough to hunt those who want to live life contrary to its moral requirements. Those living in the USA if having open eyes have an opportunity to see opposition to it leading to "Higher freedom " beheading those who confess their loyalty to the ordinary common sense... As to answering your question of appreciation your post quoting Krishna , it is mainly between you and your god what you would like to live by or teach the others. For me is sufficient to stick by the One who said I am the way and the truth and the life... and by the way my personal faith isn't put up for anyones speculation or discussion, unless having the same experience living it.
Thanks for BFN explanation, which is right way of communication not leaving others in limbo. In other language "BFN" might mean a horrible thing as well as many others indicative messages left without proper spelling.
Good night now, have a productive week, tomorrow is a working day again...Krishna talks about the way and the truth and the light/life too.
In fact he teaches how to FIGHT for it within your mind/consciousness.Have Krishna died for your sins to redeemed you back to the Father ? Jesus did for me, He rose from the dead for my justification. Did Krishna or any other god, or prophet or any kind of "good " teacher?! Only if the people would dare to keep the Word of the incarnate Creator of the Universe, - seriously, unwaveringly, we would show the world the SAME results of the Kingdom of God as He did while walking the land of this of our.
To fight for what ? Once " I " am submitted to God- occupied by the presence of the Spirit of the Most High ( You don't like this Name, why ?)- I do not need teaching " how " to fight, I am strong enough to resist the evil, once "I " " am the light of the world why to "FIGHT' for it ? I have no idea what you are telling me...I believe there are other avenues of Truth. Krishna and Christ bring the same salvation and deliverance from satanic delusion and redemption into the kingdom of heaven. My advice: Forget the words. Meditate and sense the purity of the consciousness of God.
According to my understanding, there is a fight involved. It is one of focus and determination. It is one of body, heart, mind and soul willingness to perceive true self as opposed to false self.
You have found your path, MM and I respect it.
Just sharing another avenue. I know you disagree.
Thats fine.
Peace.Our conversation proves to be going unparalleled You say " I believe there are other avenue of Truth." That sole statement alerting . And it is fine with me, one can believe whatever choses to. However next quite a long sentence " Krishna and Christ ..." Put on the same level of accomplishment doesn't deserve any elaboration on my part because any further discussion would be casting time and feeding a nonsense . Christ's mission and message has no equals. You know it and everyone who reads His Word know it. Regarding The TRUTH He said " If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples and you will know the TRUTH. .." To KNOW all he said leads to knowing the truth and became free from that which " knowledge" of the Word makes on free.. . A " FREE' person who knows the TRUTH revealed through the manifestation and deeds / words of incarnate Creator of the Universe will reject concept the " same salvation and deliverance from Satanic delusion..." You better read the way of Jesus' dealing with the Satanic oppression and the same empowerment He has given to all of us The redeemed an filled with the power of the Spirit of God to continue successfully to spread the Kingdom of God the way Jesus of Nazareth entrusted / sent to continue now and heard until He comes back. You have put me in quite awkward position using terms strange to the saints vocabulary flung in the Scripture. Isn't me finding "my path " - its a direction " Follow Me " - which means f o l o w i n g , not imitating, but doing which comes as easy task once a person becomes a child of the Heavenly Father ( John 1; 12.13 )
Finally there isn't anything to disagree; simply I reject any teaching not coming from the throne of the merciful, gracious Creator who desires that everyone would come to know the Truth and accept the gift of salvation.
PS Could that be that one of my post has disappeared and a challenging remark to it, I have seen it last night late, since I am involved in production, I need to give my body sufficient rest. To day those two are missingThat way or the high way. I do not believe it. Spirituality is based on the science of Life. Jesus taught the science of Life. It is a science. Others explain the science more clearly where Jesus could not due to ignorance of the people of that time as far as knowing about electricity/ energy. He had to speak in parables because many realities could not be explained directly. Can you tell me what he meant by this: "If your eye be single your whole body will be full of light?" I believe Jesus was speaking of meditation.
I only ramble on because I find it interesting and others might be interested. You understand and insist of your way. A way which makes sense to you. Not me. I must know the science.
So what ? am I going to hell?
"The harvest is abundant but the laborers are few." What is the harvest? what is the work required?
What is the work required???The same He was doing while on this earth: NOT for everyone only for those who believe ( John 14:12)
NO, you are not going to any hell. It doesn't exist. No just, loving God would allow it.
Had to edit. I felt bad about asking if I was going to hell.
and actually I agree with your response.
See, I do have esp… I was thanking YOU ahead of time. Ha ha.
(Just kidding.)
What would you do, Rad Man if religious forums were not allowed here on HP any more?
Good for you; No surprise to me : It's between you and your god...
- my God.
And actually this topic is something each person must figure out for themselves. The kids are right. Maybe religious discussions should be kept out of public forums on the internet.
Its useless and people get hurt.
I should get out while the getting is good.
Actually, I did not want to bring in the religious aspect to all this, but lo and behold The Ten Commandments do include the belief in God.
I forgot about that.You are welcome.( For your thank you.) @ Katherine
Now you know what your gibberish sounds like.
Not believing in God doesn't make one "anti-God". I don't believe in Santa but I'm definitely not anti-Santa (in fact I absolutely adore the idea of a sweet old chubby man jumping down my chimney even though I know it's not real).
I am anti-false claims with no evidence other than "because I said so." You can base your opinions on anything you'd like, but make sure you present them as opinions and not fact. It's irritating and it doesn't make for good conversation.That Santa thing sounded a little bit dirty, didn't it?
I feel less guilty about having a dirty mind now since you brought it up.
Just throw in the word presents somewhere and I think it fixes itself..."I adore the idea of a sweet old chubby man jumping down my chimney, presents and all."
Welp, I think I am a lost cause. That didn't sound any better to me
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