Read from top to bottom, then bottom to top.
I always believed God existed. I don't recall a time when I didn't believe that. I know growing up in a religious family motivated this. I remember many days lying on my back in our living room looking up at the cloth picture on the wall with the words " In God We Trust" printed on it and thinking, just thinking about this God. Who was He? Church was never really able to answer that question for me...so I didn't seek God. Instead, I sought all other kinds of things.
How anyone can look up into the sky and disbelieve in that some Higher Power exists? How is it that the sun and moon never ever get confused and appear in the other's place? Who else but God could have master-minded that?
About a week ago, I responded to a thread where someone was talking about the the universe creating our solar system. The universe? Creating? Nothing can create without a mind and will to do so. The universe has no will and no mind.
I am posting this thread not to argue and not to really say anything that hasn't been said here before. I'm posting this thread to say that the little girl who once lay for hours looking up at those "In God We Trust" words printed on a wall hanging has been found by God. I was never an Atheist, never Agnostic and have been a Christian for nearly 15 years. We are often misunderstood for wanting to share the message of our hope in Christ and sure we don't always handle the Word of God properly nor our approach to unbelievers, but still we try.
Do I want you to know the hope I have today in Christ? Yes, I do!
If anyone wants to know who Jesus is, why He came and how to enter into a relationship with Him, I'm willing to help all I can.
"How anyone can look up into the sky and disbelieve in that some Higher Power exists?"
How can anyone make up myths based on ignorance, and then say they live according to that made up story?
"How is it that the sun and moon never ever get confused and appear in the other's place?"
It's called "gravity".
"Who else but God could have master-minded that?"
Same answer - "gravity", although there isn't much in the way of "minded" in the correct answer.
In all our "conversations," I don't recall ever seeing your take on eternity. From most of what I say, it appears to me that it is inconsequential, i.e. ppsstt ... your here; ppsstt ... your gone. I have read that there is a theory (yeah, there is a theory about everything but) that space is limited. That makes no sense to me. But what about eternity? Is it limited? Do we affect it at all? Just thoughts.
I don't see eternity as limited in the forward direction. Time began, of course, with the big bang in the opposite direction. (That may make the term an inappropriate one for what I just said, though.)
I WILL say, however, that an eternal life is something to be very frightened of, to dread as worse than any Satanic punishment. It won't matter one iota whether that eternity is sitting at the feet of a God or burning in brimstone; it is something to be avoided if at all possible.
What you said just registered so the hockey game is on pause.
What do you mean "sitting at the fee of God" for eternity? Were you taught that all we will do in Heaven is sit or kneel in front of God and sing "Holy, holy, holy" for an eternity? If that were the case, I would have to agree that there might be little difference between Heaven and Hell.
However, I don't believe it to be the case. I expect to wander around Heaven and the new Earth, among other things, enjoying creation as it once was, but with out the fear of sin. I expect that Heaven and eternity will be everything that Adam gave up and more.
Yes, that's what I was taught.
But it doesn't matter. Whether sitting at a god's feet or wandering the entire universe with a trillion trillion planets for a playground, in just a relative blink of an eye every possible experience will have been yours a million times over. And you will STILL have an eternity to exist - a fate far, far worse than any death could ever be.
No, give me a clean death anytime rather than an eternity of boredom quickly culminating in madness. The human mind, whether corporeal or spirit, is not equipped to handle unending time without change.
You are right that the earthly human mind is not equipped to handle unending time without change. Our natural human minds are subject to quick boredom, along with a host of other negative emotions. Though there is much of worth in our human minds/bodies and in this present earth, it is fallen and full of woes as well.
When Jesus Christ returns for us, we will be raised up as spiritual beings with new bodies, as Jesus Christ was before us. Currently, as temporal beings, we were designed for a temporary situation here on earth. I trust that our eternal beings will be created suitably for an eternal existence, as our Creator God is more aware of our needs than even we are. God is a brilliant Creator and He may continue to create new things throughout eternity.
Let's both assume for a moment that God does exist. Consider the ability you have to grasp what is here and now in your corporeal mind and, without meaning to "pump you up", your grasp of so many things on other pages amazes me.
Anyway, consider, if you were given the mental capacity to deal with this world, would it seem likely that the same would be true for the next? I think so.
You're making an awful lot of assumptions:
There is a god
That god loves us and wants us for companionship, not for food or other unknown purpose.
That god is omnipotent
That god is omniscient
That god does not lie
That god is not mad
It is possible, in the god's "universe", to make an entity that can survive eternal life mentally
Too many assumptions to be likely at all that a god that made us ALSO made us mentally capable of surviving an eternity. It is one of the unsolved problems of religion; once one begins digging into the underlying concept it requires ever more assumptions. Assumptions without even a shred of evidence or reason to believe they even might be true.
I'm really not using any assumptions with the exception that we both move to the same page for a moment and "assume" God does exist. Let's set His attributes aside for a moment and consider my question. If God gave us the mental capacity to deal with life as we know it here, wouldn't it seem He would do the same with the "new life" in His Eternal kingdom?
If His purpose is to supply a long term supply of meat for the angels, no.
Or to just watch the ants scurrying about on earth, no.
If He cannot do it, no.
If His "universe" does not allow it, no.
If He is mad (insane by our standards), not necessarily. A sadist perhaps
If He does not know how, no.
See what I mean? More and more assumptions to come up with a "yes" answer. It's like saying that because I can build a soapbox derby car I can and will build a starship.
Mishpat, "Eternity," meaning "without beginning or end."
If you think of eternity as being that bit of existence tacked onto the end of your life, as something you have to wait for, then it cannot be "eternity," because what you are waiting for has, at least, a beginning.
Eternity = Infinity = no beginning, no end. The only experience of Eternity is right here and now. The instant now. If you tried to measure it, you would fine it so small, it's immeasurable. "Infinitely small."
Think of a circle, any sized circle you wish. Can you "measure" the center? No you can't. You can use geometric calculation to indicate where the center is located, and you can mark a pin-prick point in that location, but then you can measure the size of the pin-prick. And the pin-prick has a location also that you can point to as its center. And so on, and so on. Each time you mark the center you find it gets smaller and smaller. Thus the actual center is "infinitely" small, meaning it cannot be measured.
The center of yours and my life, our existence, is just like that. We are, individually, a manifestation of the Infinite, the Eternal. The manifestation is momentary, we only last a maximum of 110 years, most of us not even that. But our manifestation, our life, is finite., it has a beginning and an end.
So, what does this mean? It means you are already in touch with Eternity. It is right here and now. You don't have to go anywhere, you don't have to wait for even one second before meeting it. This very moment, so small in terms of our sense of time that it's immeasurable.
Just say, "I AM." This was the message of Jesus.
Wilderness, thank you for educating me on gravity, but I never asked "how were the moon and sun held in the sky" nor did I state that I didn't know why. The point I was making was "how do they know, each one, when to appear and when to fall into the backdrop to greet the other?" Who but God could make this possible?
"How is it that the sun and moon never ever get confused and appear in the other's place?"
And the answer is still gravity. Not a god, not a demon, not an ET, not any kind of intelligence. Gravity is why the sun and moon never get confused and change places.
Nor, in spite of the poetry, do they ever "fall into the backdrop to greet the other". The earth turns; the sun and moon do not "greet each other" in any form at all. They do, after all, remain 93,000,000 miles apart; about the same distance as the earth and sun. Or do the earth and sun "greet each other" as well?
Everything is exactly as it needs to be for us to exist here on earth. Not off just a little here or a little there, but precisely suitable. That's remarkable! And it will remain that way until the coming of the Lord.
Tell that to the people living under drought conditions for year after year. Or those killed by a volcanic eruption nearby. Explain it to the one who has just watched a hurricane or tornado destroy not only their home but their food supply for the next year (crops) and faces death by either exposure or starvation.
There is actually very little of this planet that is inhabitable by man without massive effort and a good deal of changes to the environment. The garden of Eden is long gone and what is left is not particularly conducive to our humanity.
That we can survive at all is a great testament to the powers of evolution, adapting us to a hostile environment. Not to a god that made the environment to match what we are.
Things had to be just so for us to EXIST. The precision met for our EXISTENCE is amazing! No one said anything about ease of life or the absence of pain and natural hardships here. Remember that the world is under a curse and is to be worked by the "sweat of the brow". We can't expect Eden here in this fallen world. But praise be to God, who has given His promise and will create the new earth and new heavens for us!
Not at all - that concept is based on the premise that the universe was designed for our bodies and is something we have to show. On the contrary, we know that our bodies are the way they because of the environment the earth provides; we are as we are because of the way the earth is, not the other way around. It's called "evolution".
We understand as well that there is no "precision" at all in what the earth is. It is a matter of chance producing what it will and man evolving to fit it, not design producing something we would like, 4.5 billion years after creating it.
Its just a matter of pointing out the faith involved, that we are here, able to ponder our own existences to this very degree..... that in order to do so, does in fact need some great precision to allow for that. To think that matter and chance produced this without any direction or will from an outside source, a cause for the incredible effect we see, is simply an astounding amount of faith. The fact that might just be so random, and because of chance and evolution as you say, is so incredibly defying of the odds, shows its quite the miracle no matter how you look at it. An incredible amount of faith is needed in that "thing" that has yet to be known or suggested, that "isn't" or couldn't be god. You can't really fault people for saying "hey, this idea of God could be the kind of thing that could get this done." As far as options that have been put on the table. Its not just pulled out of thin air for comfort or explanatory reasons, it actually makes sense for whatever it is you want to think is a more viable option I think. Doesn't that seem kind of fair to you? I know where you stand, but just trying to get you to consider the whole picture, and that it isn't really so crazy as its being suggested.....
And again, sir, who is responsible for gravity?
I appreciate your words. Don't be dismayed by the non-believers. Some are true searchers. Others, as you noted, just want to argue. Their comments usually indicate the difference.
The following was witten some years ago in response to a newspaper article that depicted an Atheist as a hate mongering and arrogant beast. The response was never published, but did lead to a public debate.
At the close of the debate, I was met by a group of fun loving Christians who accused me of being a communist and a mouth piece for the devil.
What Atheism Is:
Atheism is---accepting life as the ultimate of human existence.
Atheism is---understanding that the purpose for life, your life, is defined by you.
Atheism is---an awakening, a sense, a feeling of life. It is the reasoned knowledge of who you are, what you are, where you are, and the purpose of your existence. It is an absence of ignorance, an embracing of knowledge.
Atheism is---a cleansing of the mind, clarity of thought and of living.
Atheism is---to embrace the unique preciousness of intelligent life and the unparalleled and fantastic capacity to reason----that is you.
Atheism is---the freedom to think freely, to act freely without the stigma and guilt of contrived religious sin and government promoted social guilt.
Atheism is---a respect for and a love of self and in that, a love of life, a respect for life.
Atheism is---the ultimate empowerment of the individual----“I am”.
Atheism is---a philosophy of self, self realization, self worth and with that, the greatest contribution to the human community, a reasoning, self sustaining, and self quantifying human being.
The name Jesus is false, the true Hebrew name is Yehowshuwa. And what do you mean by 'relationship' do you actually mean worship, and do you actually think Jesus is God?
The Messiah say the greatest commandment is to worship his father Yehowah.
Mark 12:29 And Yehowshuwa answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear , O Israel; (the Lord) Yehowah our God is one (Lord) Yehowah: And thou shalt love (the Lord) Yehowah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. (Direct quote from Deut 6:4 which has his Father's name written, often replaced with Lord)
Thank you for sharing that! That is really nice. Happy New Year
Really good point! Yes, JESUS exists, GOD exists. Why say so otherwise?
To those who are unbelievers: Hunny, please, please, PLEASE, look at the sky and not tell me God exists. He can wipe you out as easily as He brought you in. But He hasn't. Because He's giving y'all a chance. Think on that, my child.
OK - I looked at the sky, but no god. Then I looked at trees, dogs and cats - no god. Then mountains, but still no god.
A little confused about looking at the sky and seeing god, though - as an ET from another universe why would He be in the sky?
I mean to LOOK TO THE VASTNESS of the world.
Hunny, do you need proof that God exists? I could give ya proof if ya ask for it.
First consider the ocean. If the world was billions of years old, then wouldn't there be more sediment in it? Just a thought. Sorry I replied 12 hours late. I was sleeping. I need sleep.
Another thing. Don't say this is because of medical tech. This is from my own life, and I (as well as my family) consider this a miracle...
I am a quadruplet. I was born 10 weeks earlier than when I was supposed to. I was brought home with my eldest brother while my younger sis & bro were in the premature infants ward at the hospital. About a few months after, my sis was brought, then my bro. My bro had reflux problems. He was treated, with a tube thru his stomach (etc). We were on oxygen a long time before my mum weaned it off us.
We were close to death a few times.
OK - the world isn't a pinprick in the vastness of the universe. That is almost beyond my comprehension - just how big it is and how insignificant the earth and everything on it is.
But I still don't see or detect any gods.
Ocean beds are constantly recycled back down into the earth, or pushed up where we can see the layers of sediment accumulated over milions/billions of years, so the sediment amount seems correct. But even if we think there should be and there isn't, our ignorance of what is happening to the sediment is not indication of a god. Just of our ignorance.
Thanks for sharing and revealing your heart for those who don't yet know our Lord. You make good points and show a desire to humbly share your hope. A hope not only for this life, but more importantly for the one yet to come. A hope that will not disappoint. May God bless you and cause you to overflow more and more with His hope and love!
Here are a couple of cool pics for you, essayist.
Just another example of our amazing God.
Center of the Whirlpool Galaxy
"The Eye of God" Helix Nebula
First of all I would like to thank essayist for her beautiful testimony. What non-believers do not understand is that God is not to be sought after. If you are willing and have an open heart, he will find you. And yes God created all of the universe, planets, etc. I saw where one gentlemen said this was because of gravity. Nonsense. Who created gravity? Something cannot come from nothing. The great creator (God) has done a miraculous job in creating everything possible. Thank you again essayist.
And what you don't understand is that I am fine as I am, thanks.
JThomp42, very well said. Thanks and God bless! I really wanted to go further into my testimony and some other things, but for the sake of time I decided not to.
"Something cannot come from nothing."
Your evidence, please? Or do you make the claim simply because everything in your own extremely limited experience comes from something else?
Plus, of course, the claim gives rise to the inevitable question of where did your god come from if something cannot come from nothing...
You want evidence? There is all kinds of evidence, you are too self absorbed to look for it. Read this and rest assured you know nothing of this when you speak of science. Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God. http://www.wsj.com/articles/eric-metaxa … 1419544568
What has science discovered about the beginning of the universe?
Astronomers now find that they have painted themselves into a corner because they have proven, by their own methods, that the world began abruptly in an act of creation to which you can trace the seeds of every star, every planet, every living thing in this cosmos and on the earth. And they have found that all this happened as a product of forces they cannot hope to discover.
This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being. And if the fixed stars are the centers of other like systems, these, being formed by the likewise counsel, must be all subject to the dominion of One.
For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries. http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/c … -evol.html
Sorry, I don't sign in to anything in order to hear a sermon founded on belief rather than fact.
No, astronomers still show that formation of the earth took billions of years. Your statement is, in fact, a complete falsehood. Nor have they found that it happened as a product of forces they cannot hope to discover; the very statement is a logical fallacy.
The system is beautiful because we live here and find beauty wherever we are. Not because of a god making it. Nor is there any indication that a god made other systems as well; this is again only wishful thinking without any supporting evidence.
And finally, a quote from your second link: "For all the matter, energy, nine space dimensions, and even time, each suddenly and simultaneously came into being from some source beyond itself.". Only a theologian, not understanding even the little we know of the physics of the big bang, would ever make such a foolish statement. It's why I don't read such stuff - the basis for it is barbarian myths rather than observation and reason and is thus very nearly worthless as a source of knowledge.
So you are so self absorbed you even admit you are so closed minded you can't even investigate any world view that differs from yours, yours by the way being that of a tiny minority of America's population which of course an elitist like you knows are nothing but followers of barbarians (your word not mine). Well at least you admit to your prejudice. It is understandable that having that attitude you concoct the conclusions you do. And understandable that when it comes to barbarians your world view, that there is no God of the Bible, has been the spawn of barbarians and barbarous works throughout history.
The first link I gave you has nothing to do sermons but is about science increasingly making the case for God and the second link I quoted from, well I'm really not sure what it is that really intimidates you about Dr. Ankerberg, is it his PhD ? Where is yours? Maybe this will help you to understand what he is really talking about...http://cavern.uark.edu/~cdm/creation/universeorigin.htm whoops, another PhD, guess you won't sign in to that either. But what the hey, we all know I'm just talking to the wall.
And mister know it all without doing your homework, the statement I posted which you claim "is a complete falsehood" wasn't penned by me or any theologian but by Robert Jastrow (September 7, 1925 – February 8, 2008) an American astronomer, physicist and cosmologist. He was a leading NASA scientist, populist author and futurist.
You are so transparent. All you had to do was Google what I wrote and you'd discover that it was written by a scientist with credentials you couldn't hope to muster in a lifetime.
Yet you contend God doesn't exist based on your beliefs, not facts...sounding somewhat hypocritical, there, wilderness.
Even in the Vilenkin model, quantum foam had to have existed. Yet, quantum foam is something, not nothing. And there is a basic mathematical concept named "the empty set," which contains zero elements, and from such, nothing can arise. This is a mathematical fact. Something creates something. It cannot be the other way around.
So you actually believe that something CAN come from nothing? WOW!
If something can't come from nothing then where did God come from?
God is not a MERE something Aime. He is the beginning and will be the end as the Bible says.
Good sidestep: ignore the question and preach instead. Are you a politician?
But God, ALL gods, ARE "mere". Mere imagination without any known connection to reality.
"But God, ALL gods, ARE "mere". Mere imagination without any known connection to reality."
Can you please provide proof? Thanks
Identical proof to the claim that it is real. When you make up imaginary entities that are undetectable you kind of set yourself up to be asked for proof. Until it is provided, that entity shall forever remain only imagination.
And when you claim that your made up entity is true and real it goes beyond setting yourself up; you are virtually begging to be asked for proof. Much better that such a creature is presented for what it is; nothing more than make believe regardless of how much faith one might have or how much they might believe.
You speak a lot of words, but still you offer no proof that God doesn't exist. The burden of proof is on you and others like you, not on me. So until you can prove that he doesn't exist, you set your own self up to be seen as hot air blowing, producing nothing. At least in my eyes. But I am hoping you will some day see the truth.
Essayist, go back to school and learn some simple logic. When you claim the existence of something which has no form, no means of recognition, relying upon only the mental desires of yours and others, it is not possible to disprove it. You cannot dis-prove something that does not exist...
You have been brainwashed by your collegial studies.
Thank you wilderness. Not a side step.. the truth. It is beyond a humans minds perception to really understand God because all we know are "earthly" things. Very few, like yourself, just cannot wrap their minds around a creator.
If not a sidestep, you might want to answer the question proposed. Where did your god come from?
Evidence that your god is beginning and end might be helpful, too. You made the statement - can you back it up with something more the millenia old words from barbarians?
Of course not wilderness. Can you back up your nonsensical view that there is no God? I do not believe you can. Quote science all you want, it is as flawed as anything else man made. Do you believe Jesus Christ existed? Even the most hardened atheists have had to agree that Christ was alive on this earth and did what the Bible says he did. No science needed, it is only men like yourself who are attempting to out think a deity such as God. Only to fail again and again I might add. There is no proof that Julius Caesar existed, but there is proof that Jesus existed. Look it up. Even your own beloved atheists cannot deny this fact.
You know better than that. No atheist believes that Christ performed miracles, raised the dead or turned water to wine. Outside of ancient writings from unknown authors there is exactly zero evidence of such nonsense. That he existed is probable, that he was a god is impossible.
So I ask again for evidence of your god. Evidence beyond those writings. Or do you fall back onto the position that anything you claim has to be truth until proven otherwise? The world doesn't work that way, you know - claims require proof they are true, not proof from others that they are wrong.
Well, 2 billion people are wrong and you are right? Give me a break!
How about 2 billion people are wrong and 5 billion are right? Or are you ignoring the rest of the world's population?
Where is the evidence of your god? I note that you carefully ignore that question once more...
I cannot prove that God existed no more than you or ANYONE can prove that he does not exist.
From one of your fellow atheist quotes: It is my understanding that most biblical scholars regardless of their theism/atheism regard Jesus Christ as a historical figure who existed.
Since atheism is simply lack of god belief, calling an atheist who also regards Jesus as not even being an historical figure as a radical atheist makes no sense as all atheists do not have god belief, and that lack of god belief is what defines an atheist not what kind of historical figure she/he believes to have existed. Theists could also reject Jesus as a historical figure, are they then radical theists?
Once again, we need to point out that there are is only one Universal Atheist Belief: Gods are not real. That’s it. Some other beliefs are common among atheists, but none are universal.
You cannot prove your god, but believe in it and expect others to do the same based on your unsupported claim. Do you also believe everything you read on the internet, or is it just supposed to be others that maintain such foolish attitudes that anything in print has to be true?
I do believe that "biblical scholars" are all much the same - start with a belief in a god and manipulate the words to maintain that belief with the only evidence being the very words they are twisting out of shape.
What's with the "Jesus did not exist" rant? I agree he most likely did exist and said so - why do you keep saying that atheists think he did not? While there is no definitive proof, and corroborating evidence is slim, it is enough to tentatively agree there was a man called Jesus at about the right time frame.
Atheists are so confused they do not know what they believe. You are certainly not a consistent bunch are you?
And what are you proclaiming that an atheist believes, beyond that there is a need for supporting evidence prior to declaring truth?
But yes, atheists are about as consistent as believers. Some believers believe in beheading people while others don't, some believe in the trinity while others don't and some believe the pope is connected to God while others don't. Belief does not seem very consistent regardless of the root of that belief, does it?
Jonny...... I choose not to interact with you and your delusions. So, in the future do not interact with me again. You have nothing to say that I want to hear. Anyone who calls my God names and mocks him on a regular basis cannot be taken seriously. Thank you. Have a nice day.
When is the last time you have heard of a Christian wanting to behead people? You are talking about oranges and apples when you bring up Islam. Islam is a cult. They live by works. Christians have a loving God and they live by the promise of salvation through Jesus Christ.
The term used was "believer", not "Christian". And in fact, there have been several beheadings lately by believers in the same god you profess to believe in. That they use a different label doesn't seem relevant; they believe in the same god and follow it's orders just as you do.
Sure, Christians have a loving god. One that "Hardened Pharoah's heart" in order that it had an excuse to murder thousands of innocent first born children. Right - you may ignore such atrocities as you wish but others recognize them as real attributes of the entity being talked of.
You talk as if there is no God then you profess the things that God has done. Typical atheist behavior. You fear the unknown.
Atheists believe in God too. They are just in rebellion. The proof is they are really maltheists.
Your book, your reports, your sacred writings. Either they are true or not - make up your mind. I but point out how how wrong your thinking is when you take some of God's word and reject the rest.
Wilderness ....... this is you peoples main problem. You ASSUME too much. ALL of the Bible is true. The OT is no longer for gentiles, it is for Jews. The new covenant was created in the NT when Jesus died on the cross for all's sin. "NEW COVENANT." I really think you need to educate yourself in these things that you are claiming falsely.
JT, have you not read the history of Europe during the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries? Christian to the T. So much superstition, so much cruelty and judgment. So much torture and cajoling people into believing about a fictitious god. Beheaded, broken on the wheel, hung-drawn-and-quartered. We did it, boy-oh. People of Islam are just a bit behind the times, old-fashioned. These days, there are much more efficient and agonizing methods, like the TAZER and Water Boarding and Brain Washing.
Oh, by the way, who has been teaching and training those people in their torture techniques today? Good christian people of your own country? There is a saying that speaks of "pot calling the kettle black," or something like that.
It just shows that your beliefs in your god are nothing more than a smoke screen of convenience for self-deception.
"that he was a god is impossible"
Impossible? Based upon what?
Where did our God come from?
He came from everlasting...synonym of eternal (NO BEGINNING and no ending).
Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, from EVERLASTING (or no beginning) to everlasting (Psalm 106:48)
He (Abraham) worshiped the Lord, the ETERNAL God, at that place (Genesis 21:33)
Glory and honor to God forever and ever. He is the ETERNAL King, the unseen one who never dies; he alone is God (1 Timothy 1:17)
If God could "come from", how could He be God? He would have had to be created from something or someone greater than Himself and there is no such thing.
So why does that logic apply to God but not anything else? Why can't gravity have come from nowhere? Because there's no book written by Gravity that declares it the creator of all things?
I'm okay if people want to say "yes, it's illogical, I don't know how to explain it", but to apply logic to one thing and then completely dismiss it from another makes absolutely no sense to me.
All things were created, except for God. Why can we not also go further to say that you and I came from nowhere? Actually we could say that, but that would be a lie. All things were created by Him, including you and I and gravity as well. What makes no sense to me is how anyone could believe that gravity or any other force just could suddenly come forth from nothing, yet disbelieve that there is a Creator of that force and all other things besides.
Why is it so easy to say that us (or the universe) coming from nothing is impossible but that God coming from nothing is just the truth? It seems to me that they're both equally as perplexing but once you throw in the idea of an all-powerful, all-knowing creator, things become even more fantastical and unlikely.
I am not surprised that you are perplexed Aime. Sorry, I did not even realize you were still here.
Is that really necessary? I was asking honest questions and not trying to be rude to anyone at all.
Aime.. you said you were perplexed. Only making an observation. I did not even realize you were still in this thread.
I looked back after observing this exchange, and perhaps you are newer to these boards.... But this thread is only two days old, and she posted on it both of those days, as well as today. I have observed people go for days without posting in a thread, to come back to it later on. At least I know this is true for me and many others here.
I have never been a part of the forums. So, yes I am new to the forums on this site. How can you say these things about me when you do not even know me? I suppose we should choose not to interact period. God bless you Aime!!
You know your previous activity in the forums shows up on your profile, right?
Of course. Knock yourself out. I have only commented on this forum and one other. Hope you have a great day. But, like I said please stop interacting with me. For you and I to try and agree to disagree is frivolous.
I'm on my phone so perhaps I'm viewing the page differently, but there are three tabs - Hubs, Q&A, and Forums. If you look under Forums you can see that 20+ months ago he had posted several threads himself, who knows how many he participated in.
Exhibit A: http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/107896
What makes no sense to me is how someone can say everything has a creator...except the one thing we don't even know actually exists. What makes that god different? Why is there no creator for it but there is for everything else?
Is it just because it doesn't fit in with the belief system that "created" the god but doesn't want to admit it?
@ wilderness... just because it does not fall under your belief system does not make it untrue. It is with your human perception that you are using to rationalize your own ideas and thoughts.
Just so. It doesn't make it true.
Likewise, just because it falls under your belief system does not make it true, either. Yet you present it as factual...factual without ever producing any supporting evidence that the statement is true.
Because you don't have any? Because you wish it true so strongly that reality doesn't matter? Why?
I have the exact same perceptive ability as you do, so no reason to put yourself on a pedestal that you can see things I can't. Unless you think that denying the rationality you also possess will gain you knowledge?
Obviously your perceptive ability is not the same as theirs or you would perceive that your belief system is a farce, a result of emotions and opinions not based in fact at all as even science is unraveling the facts to support her belief. Talk about belief systems, it takes way more "faith" to believe atheism than it does to believe in a supernatural creator and that is just the plain truth.
Absolutely. It takes much faith to "believe" that we don't know everything, much more than to believe in another universe with a single omnipotent ET that loves us so much it created this universe just to have us worship it without ever showing itself to the ants of earth.
I have been around the horn many times with the atheists, (almost universally adherents to Scientism whether they own it or not). It is amazing to me how they don't see the breakdown in their logic and that a creator is the most reasonable conclusion based on the available data.
I believe it would be quite clear to an impartial observer, if such a thing exists, that Scientism employs a lot of blind faith, considering assumptions and ideas as facts and extrapolating them to create more assumptions and "facts". Often utilizing genuine scientific observations as smoke and mirrors, they don't see, (or at least won't admit), how what they contend and purport is based on faith not fact.
Here is a recent go round with Wilderness, which is fairly concise, (currently that whole thread is just 3 pages, where I left Wilderness with the "last word") : http://hubpages.com/forum/post/2690576
What I find ironic is that there is pretty much just one area of common ground. We both agree the other is blindly following their "religion" and believing as gospel truth the words of their respective "holy men" regarding things that have not and cannot be proven materialistically / scientifically.
I of course contend the believer has more resources, via spiritual discernment, and that the key to understanding it all is only available that way.
Atheists often will create the strawman of all believers only believe using faith. Then they will make their own position clear of empiricism/ materialism. (A posteriori knowledge or justification is dependent on experience or empirical evidence) and they believe that this is the only way to observe potential truths. What is missing from their assumption/ strawman and what is missing from their own position are the same thing: deductive reasoning/ a priori knowledge.
Most atheists use what they believe is evidence of evolution as "their reason to disregard the idea of “God” as irrational drivel made up by people who were just too ignorant to know any better (barbarians?). However, the thing is… it doesn’t really prove anything."
Dean Richards explains How Science Proves That We Actually Don’t Exist That's right, according to natural laws and recent scientific discoveries and scientific theory about the beginning of the universe you can't exist.
"When humanity started questioning the reasons for its own existence, it makes sense that they wanted to know the specifics, including the very first occurrence of anything that wasn’t “nothing.” Currently, scientists are still unsure about this, as all they know is that there was a big bang once upon a time, and that after that the planets were created. But the question an evolutionist does not like to hear while debating the existence of God is the question “How did that big bang happen in the first place?”
Of course, the easy answer is “We don’t know yet, but that doesn’t matter.”
The thing is, though… it kind of does matter. It is a fundamental flaw in evolutionism, especially for one very simple reason: science has proven that it is impossible for “nothing” to become “something”. One cell can become two cells, a bacteria can become a human being, but according to science, it is impossible for “nothing” to become an atom or a molecule.
And there it is: how did anything ever come into existence if it cannot be created out of nothing? Science has just disproven itself, and the idea that mankind has come into existence without the help of a God has just become complete rubbish. “1-0 to the creationists!” you might think.
There is just one more problem… How did God ever come into existence? Science has shown us that everything has a beginning and that it is impossible for something to be created out of nothing, but seeing as God is also a “something” (or perhaps more of a someone, but that’s a different subject), it basically means that God cannot exist either. Unfortunately, that brings us back to where we started: how then did mankind ever come into existence?
There is only one remaining answer: we didn’t. Yep, sorry. You don’t exist. It’s just scientifically impossible. I can imagine that this is difficult to deal with, but well… reality can hurt sometimes. Or actually… there is no reality… because well… we don’t exist, and neither does anything else…"
Or you do exist because you were created from nothing by the God who isn't ruled by the natural, who exists outside of the natural world and is not subject to natural laws, he is supernatural and because he is supernatural and he is love he sent his son into the natural world who chose to be subject to the natural world so that his creation (mankind) could be saved, can exist with him for eternity.
Make sense? Well I guess not because according to science YOU don't exist. Oh yeah, science makes perfect sense.
All well put. Not hard to understand from a spiritual perspective, but if you are locked into there being nothing but the material, you've got no chance to get it. Funny how none of the things we value most are material. Love, justice, peace, etc. Concepts, thoughts, sentience, all not physical, yet they contend only the physical exists. What I find confusing is how anyone can think that when the truth is self evident. Oh well, at least this should give them a "pound" of ponder!
Which ones? The untrue statement that "That's right, according to natural laws and recent scientific discoveries and scientific theory about the beginning of the universe you can't exist."?
The lie that "science has proven that it is impossible for “nothing” to become “something”" (we know of many particles that come from nothing)?
The lie that "Science has just disproven itself" (which knowledge is forever growing, science has never disproven the field of science)?
The lie that "the idea that mankind has come into existence without the help of a God has just become complete rubbish" (after the big bang, gravity and evolution take over and we know there was no need for the big bang)?
The logical fallacy (apparently based on the falsehoods above) that "There is only one remaining answer: we didn’t (come into existence)?
Or was it the point being made that if we don't know an answer we should fabricate one and pretend it's correct without ever trying to corroborate it?
Which one of these would you consider "good", given that they are all either false or logically incorrect?
More probable is that "God" existed before the "Big Bang," and "God" was the Big Bubble..... so the Big Balloon ceased to exist, splattered it's contents all over the universe, and little pieces of it have ever since been trying to reconstitute the "Big Balloon."
Bit like a water melon when you accidentally drop it on the floor!
What gives you the idea that the universe was created just to have us worship the Omnipotent?
Wilderness, why would anyone want to serve a God that could be created? What would make Him different from any other creation?
Who said something came from nothing? God is not nothing and again, all things came from Him.
No, but if you think God is something then by the very basic "everything had to come from somewhere" logic that people love to quote in defence of God, God would have to come from somewhere, too. Did he create himself? Did he appear out of thin air?
We know that everything in the natural world has to come from something. We who are in the natural have witnessed this to be so. But God is not a part of the natural world. He is Spirit. He created both natural and spiritual things, as it's written, but from our natural point of view, we are witnesses only to the fact that all natural things come from something.
God is Spirit, not part of the natural world, which has been created by Him. We are dependent on Him for our knowledge of the spiritual realm. Who are we to say that God must come from something, when all we know in our human wisdom is that all NATURAL things must come from something? It makes sense for us to question where everything in the natural has originated, as we have discovered many laws for the natural. But anything beyond this is beyond our realm, beyond our natural laws, beyond our understanding, and so on. There's no reason to say anything outside our natural realm must come from something. Why apply a natural law to that which is not natural, but spiritual? If we do so, we're misapplying natural laws. Our only knowledge of the spiritual comes from God Himself and the spiritual realm.
An infinite amount of events occurring in the past leads to contradictions. (That idea leads to contradictions that would also have to be answered.) That it looks like our universe began to exist with the big bang is consistent with this idea. We have reached this point in time right now. If there were an infinite amount of events in the past, we wouldn't have ever reached this moment in time. This is how we know in part, that we do have to have something that is an uncaused cause. Not out of desire to line up with an ancient text or desire to have belief in a god or something else just for the sake of it.
Whatever it would be, would have to be an uncaused cause. This is not just a problem for people of varying religions. Its the case for every human being that wonders about any existence at all over just non existence. Its a human dilemma we have. What best explains it? Not knowing what it could be and holding out hope that science will discover it is still just that, hope in something unknown, something, anything that couldn't possibly be a god. I know some esteem that as a very superior view, but I think its good for us to talk about how other views actually weigh in very well with what best explains what we all do see and even agree on in science, humanity, etc.
A devil's advocate might suggest the possibility of cyclic universes, with finite beginnings in time. Even though there could be infinite amounts of old and new universes, in the past, it would be conceivable to arrive at this time because of a definite beginning. It may seem counter-intuitive or cheating because there could still be an infinite amount of cycles in the past. The question would remain however of "why any cycles of universes at all" ?
Contingent things like a drawing of a triangle on a piece of paper can be explained. The paper was made somewhere, the pen or pencil was made somewhere, and someone or something drew a triangle on the paper. But who created the "nature of a triangle". It exists in itself (by it's nature) and is not contingent in this analogy. All it needs is three sides to exist, if it has four, it is a conceptual contradiction ie a square, if it has zero sides, it is nothing at all.
Which gets us back to : "why any cycles of universes at all" ? The "reason" cannot be a contingent thing. It must be something that "by it's nature" provided the reason.
You bring up excellent points. I think the answer to why is there any existence at all, is because something with a will, willed it. As you point out possibly, why any cycles of universes at all instead of nothing or none, I think the answer is something with a will. A mind, with a will, and an incomprehensible amount of power. Yes, something that just "is" on its own, and that would line up with what we observe, and the necessity that our reality dictates as we can seem to understand it at this point. I will have to think more on this.
"cyclic universes with finite beginnings in time"? Some people would rather believe anything over truth, while deeming themselves bright they sound foolish. Wow!
Guys, I know it gets frustrating at times, and many have previously received rude or condescending comments themselves, so our defenses go up, but it's best if we avoid any unkind words. As it's written, let's just share the truth in a loving, humble way. Thanks, and God bless you as you continue to share words of truth!
Says the guy who threw the first punch.
Hope you find someone else to play your silly games with. Good luck!
Twenty + months ago. I cannot even remember 6 months ago. This had to have been before I took an 8 month hiatus from this site. Grasping at straws aren't we? 20+ months ago? REALLY?
I remember what forum I posted on 12 years ago, so unless I have the world's best memory, I think you're the one grasping at straws.
People can come to whatever conclusion they'd like. Just wanted to put the correct information out there before they do so.
You my friend are WRONG. I may have started that thread..... list all of the forums I have been on. Enough for me to forget that I was even on them at all. What you are basically doing is calling me a liar and are on the verge of getting reported for your harassment of me constantly. Now you are following me on the forums? Like I said, grasping at straws trying to save face for what you have accused me of. You are dead wrong!
Here, I have an idea....Welcome back to the forums, JThomp42! Everybody happy?
Mhm. Whatever you say, JThomp. I don't buy it for a second. And go ahead and report me - just be sure to refer back to where this all started (when you decided to randomly insult me) when you do so.
And on a completely related note.... Hey, does anyone know if you can block posts by certain users on the forum?
I've seen the question posed several times before and don't ever recall anyone reporting a way, (if you just mean within the forums).
My lord! Of course not. I do believe you are ashamed for calling me out and being VERY wrong. Did you even bother to check and see if I participated in these forums or if my name was mentioned? Yes, every time your name is mentioned it shows up on the forum it was mentioned on. Did you have any idea of that?
The only thing I'm ashamed of is letting you suck me into one of these ridiculous conversations again. Hence why I would do best here if I just didn't see your name at all - apparently letting things slide is not my strong point. You were just saying we should cease interactions... I'm looking for a permanent way to do so.
Aime, you are being addressed, in public, as "My lord." That is quite a veneration, congratulations!
"My lord! Of course not. I do believe you are ashamed for calling me out and......."
That's right, jonny, when we have nothing worthwhile to add to the conversation, take another hubber's words out of context.
How dare you make a joke, Jonny!
(For the record, it made me smile, so I appreciate it.)
Sir, it seems you are only here for "target practice," but I do love a laugh. If your god is incapable of laughter, I have no wish to know him/her, thank you.
Sorry, Jonny, but the only person missing out here is you. He's really an awesome God. Don't take my word for it, I know you won't anyway. Ask Him to reveal Himself to you. He's not shy.
Essayist, as a student I am surprised and disappointed that you have become so fixed in your knowledge and that anything new or outside of your comprehension gets kicked out of court.
I have been in that evangelical position, a long time ago.... you are free to make your own choices. I am free to make mine.
I can assure you there is NO god "out there" and that bible which you depend upon for your ideas is only a prop for your imagination. It has no more "truth" within it than what you chose to perceive as "truth." The real truth is what you manage to discover about yourself, by going inside of your mind and meditating. This is what that person "Jesus" would have done if he was indeed an enlightened person.
You are, again, free to make your own judgment of my life, but you know so little about my life that any judgment will be totally flawed.
I wish you lots of exciting discovery and success in your studies.
First off, I'm not a sir Jonny. Secondly, I am on hubpages to practice writing my essays. Yes, I call it "target practice". I'm in the forums to do like you, use my voice. I checked out your profile. Impressive! Now that's funny.
JThomp42 - You make my point well. The belief is that all the bible is true, which means that much of it must be "interpreted" to mean something it doesn't say or simply ignore it. At least if your idea of a "loving god" is to be considered correct.
Either the historical reporting was correct or it wasn't. If it was not then the whole of the book is thrown into massive doubt while if it is you are worshipping an evil beyond anything any man has ever exhibited.
Yes, there is massive doubt for those who do not believe. I think this to be out of fear. Fear of the unknown. As Christians we have faith. Yes, in life we must have faith. Faith in a perfect creation and creator. Historically everything that the Bible has predicted has come to fruition except for the rapture. Be watching those clouds in the sky. If you have anyone who believes you will be wondering where they went on this glorious day.
You may be right - a lot of people do think that belief comes from that fear of the unknown. It is so great that answers must be found, and whether they agree with reality is immaterial. It is an answer, regardless of truth, that is desired and religious belief most certainly provides that.
But the atheist does not appear to have that fear; while an answer is desirable to such questions as the origin of the universe, the desire is insufficient to accept an answer without discernible truth in it. Truth carries a higher priority than the fear to an atheist, while to the believer an answer, any answer is preferable to the unknown. Faith, in the sense of unsupported religious belief, is not a "must" for the atheist.
A great many people have made predictions (Nostrodamus comes to mind) which, if interpreted loosely enough, comes true. Others have made predictions based on political/social/cultural facts which are almost inevitable and also come true. Neither of which shows any supernatural force at work.
wilderness, you said "Truth carries a higher priority than the fear (of the unknown) to an atheist, while to the believer an answer, any answer is preferable to the unknown." I'm interested in knowing what truth you refer to? What other truth is there besides Jesus, The Truth? What truth is there outside of Him? John 14:6 KJV - Jesus saith unto him (Thomas), I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
- by "me" he meant, "my consciousness."
Thank you for putting that point, Kathryn, but I expect that, as usual, it will fall upon deaf ears. The traditional understanding is so deeply ingrained that rarely will it be dislodged to make way for any other possibility. I don't blame people for believing otherwise. C'est la vie.
Kathryn, you missed the whole point of what I was saying...but it happens often on these religious threads.
JThomp, I agree that there is much doubt amongst those who are unbelievers and I also believe like you it's due mainly to fear, although in general, they point to the believer as the one fear-ridden and that it is that fear (of the unknown, of living, of dying, so on and so forth) that drives the believer to search for God. Who doesn't have fears in their life? Whatever it is that causes a person to seek after God, so be it. I would rather be in a situation where fear had caused me to want to know God than to live a life supposedly so free from fear until I fooled myself into believing either God doesn't exist or if He does I don't need Him.
And yes, what a glorious day it will be when we hear Him say "Come up hither."
I want God to say "Come up hither" to me! When will I hear Him say that to me?
It depends on what you mean by that.
- what do you mean?
Jonny, if I were to create a God...in my own mind...that god would be I. Believe me! You know, sort of like the one you've created in your mind.
Be honest with yourself. That god in your mind is unique to your specific needs. That god has no actual form, only imagined form. So you can build your god, out of view of anyone and everyone else. No one can scale the walls of your mind and disprove what you believe. So you are safe from invasion.
"Be honest with yourself. That god in your mind is unique to your specific needs. That god has no actual form, only imagined form. So you can build your god, out of view of anyone and everyone else. No one can scale the walls of your mind and disprove what you believe. So you are safe from invasion."
It bothers me to see you speak of yourself in this manner Jonny, really it does.
Ok, so your mind is so steeped in your christism dogma that you can see nothing else. Is there really any point in any discussion between us?
You go your road, I will go mine.
Yuo might consider the "Amen and god bless you" as something sincere coming from your heart.
But it rings very, very hollow for me. You have been brainwashed into a christian perspective and nothing outside of that perspective is allowed to be true for you.
Your only reason for being here is to draw others into thinking the same way as your religious beliefs.
That has been played before and it does not work, you know that. If you are a student, please act like one.... one who is open to new knowledge.
I am open to new knowledge. Trying to convince me that God is a figment of my imagination is not knowledge. It isn't even new, for I have heard it before. If I am seen as closed-minded because I believe, then I readily accept that title.
- what you are is willingly obedient. How did you become so?
Thank you, Kathryn. It's relationship with the Lord, over time. Although I would be lying if I acted like I am always faithful (obedient).
And what is it you are hoping to achieve here in HubPages?
Is it your objective to convince everyone, including myself, that we are "sinners" in the "eyes" of a god that does not exist except in your mind?
You can keep trying to do that, sister, but you will be wasting your time 100%
Your "faith" and your proclamations make you feel good, that is all. You have no more authenticity than that. As mentioned before, your God is your own concoction. Your reading of, and your interpretation of that bible is all yours, designed to prop up your own ideas and beliefs. You have a right to those, of course. However, your ideas that everyone else has to have the same beliefs as you have is totally erroneous. So, have fun. You have totally left me out of your game.
I have much more important and rewarding things to do with my time and my mind. Around me I see wonders and beauty unimaginable. In biology, physics, chemistry. In the birds, insects, animals, fungi, the rocks that are millions of years old. Life and all its manifestations go on around me all the time, just beckoning me to take notice and join with them. Within 10 years or so, I will say good bye to these things. Forever. Why do you imagine any of us is justified in wasting time worrying about theoretical ideas of "life after death?"
You choose to concentrate on that after-life and worry about passing the entrance exam to reach it. You could, instead, spend that concentration upon the world at your finger tips.
I choose to concentrate on this world as I sense it, through all my faculties, every moment of every minute of every hour. Just before the moment of my death I will be aware of one understanding.... I wasted as little as possible of my time.
You just go on wasting your time.
I believe we actually spend more time on the other side than on this side. Now, if the essayist chooses to focus on that world and what happens to her after the moment her heart stops beating, its fine for her… So we can give her that leeway… as she needs to give you the leeway to value being in the here and now. Ideally we can value both life on earth and life after earth.
Note to the essayist: Ideally we need to respect others' belief systems and allow others to choose their own. God is a personal matter. Adults search and make up their own minds. We can answer questions, but not preach where not invited or accepted.
The Way I See It.
Jonny... this is the essayist's forum. You knew the topic before you decided to interact with your anti-God rhetoric. If you do not like what is being said, you can always choose to leave this forum.
You are too biased, JT. This thread was certainly started by essayist, but she essentially pitted theist against a-theist. She therefore was inviting a backlash from those she was against.
I joined the fight. No regrets, no apologies. I will never stand back and allow the self-appointed christian zealot to presume the whole world needs his/her version of a message.
I believe in free speech, and hope this has been demonstrated several times, but the same rights apply to each of us.
I hope you would agree, JT.
"You are too biased, JT. This thread was certainly started by essayist, but she essentially pitted theist against a-theist. She therefore was inviting a backlash from those she was against."
I pitted no one against anyone. Everyone joined in of their own choosing. I am against no one. Who said I was against anyone? And trust me, the backlash doesn't frigthen me. I have a history on hubpages and the threads. I know how it goes.
"I joined the fight. No regrets, no apologies. I will never stand back and allow the self-appointed christian zealot to presume the whole world needs his/her version of a message."
"And what is it you are hoping to achieve here in HubPages?
Is it your objective to convince everyone, including myself, that we are "sinners" in the "eyes" of a god that does not exist except in your mind?
You can keep trying to do that, sister, but you will be wasting your time 100%"
What my objective is at hubpages is to practice writing of essays. We've gone over that already. Remember? And to participate in the forums and wherever else I would like. What is your objective on hubpages? Hold up, never mind, it doesn't really matter to me.
"Your "faith" and your proclamations make you feel good, that is all. You have no more authenticity than that. As mentioned before, your God is your own concoction. Your reading of, and your interpretation of that bible is all yours, designed to prop up your own ideas and beliefs. You have a right to those, of course. However, your ideas that everyone else has to have the same beliefs as you have is totally erroneous. So, have fun. You have totally left me out of your game."
You are continually trying to convince me that God is a figment of my imagination while accusing me of trying to have everyone believe as I do. Hypocrisy! Isn't that what you are trying to do with me?
"I have much more important and rewarding things to do with my time and my mind."
Yet you keep showing up to engage this thread...
"You choose to concentrate on that after-life and worry about passing the entrance exam to reach it."
I'm not focused on the after-life. My God is alive. I'm focused on the present moments with him . The after-life is not here yet. It comes AFTER
"I choose to concentrate on this world as I sense it, through all my faculties, every moment of every minute of every hour."
I don't think so. You choose to focus on this thread and my made-up God. If it's unimportant to you, why do you keep showing up? Go on your way, like you said you would a few posts ago. Remember?
Furthermore, I'm not wasting my time here, but I do believe you are.
Hope you have a very Blessed day!
Coming back to the theme . . . without God, what is the foundation (or purpose) of societal morality and what would be the baseline for such morality.
Whatever you choose to make it. The baseline is what is good for society as a whole. Outside of artificial rules designed to simply control others for no other reason than control, there has never been any other baseline.
The baseline should be survival of the fittest, kill or be killed. Only living people can feign morality. But in general humans have an inherent morality. They seem to know for the most part what is good or bad, cultural differences aside. Deep inside a human's mind is a conscience, unless they are incapable of one for whatever reason. I think it more plausible that a conscience is the desired fruit or product of an intelligent first cause, than some evolutionary by product.
People are, for the most part, inherently moral. At least as far as the basics (not killing people, not stealing from people, etc.) go. Basically the morals covered in the Ten Commandments are common sense for most of us.
If we lived in a world where basic morals hinged on external factors (obeying a god/gods), we'd be living in a terribly immoral world. External motivation only takes you so far for so long.
Then cannibalism has never been acceptable? Human sacrifice? It has never been moral to steal/pillage neighboring villages? The slavery condoned in the Old Testament of the bible never happened?
Almost anything has been considered moral at some time and some place, particularly when it involved treatment outside of one's own social gathering.
And I'd say all of that was influenced by external factors. I'm not saying morality is infallible or that it's always consistent across cultures (in fact I'd say only the 'basics' - murder, stealing, etc. are consistent). What I'm saying is that if people depended on God/religion, or even just law, to know the difference between right and wrong, we probably would've died out already... or at least been living in a much less civilized way. In my opinion it runs way deeper than that.
And I agree with you, as long as we recognize that morals are neither universal nor static. They come from the culture where they are found, not the world, and they change through time. Even "basic" ones change - the US is one of the few countries still killing people for committing crimes and it is disappearing here as well.
I do have a personal faith in Jesus based on love. Does that count?
John 3:16-18 says: 16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
We have to acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, sent to live a sinless life in order to be worthy to die a sacrificial death to atone for our sins (all are sinners by birthright because of Adam's and Eve's mishap). He made right with God what Adam and Eve fouled up, thereby making it possible for man to again be able to be in right standing with God (which is where Adam and Eve were before they sinned, in right standing with God). We CAN have right standing with God, but only through Christ. "For he (God The Father) hath made him (God The Son) to be sin FOR US, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Corinthians 5:21
Jesus lived a sinless life on earth, as a man. He did what Adam didn't. What Adam lost through disobedience, Jesus restored through obedience. The only sins He carried to the Cross were yours and mine and every other person's who would ever live.
After we acknowledge He is who He and The Father have said He is we are ready to receive Him as our personal Savior. He has already completed everyone's salvation, but unless we receive it through acknowledging we are a sinner in need of Him as Savior, His free gift to us remains as an unopened present. He gave it, but it was never opened and enjoyed. That's how I see every person who has ever died outside of Christ. He gave them the gift, but it just sat there, unopened.
Salvation comes when we earnestly (from the heart) confess to God The Father that "I am a sinner" "I believe Jesus came to die for my sins" "I receive His death in my place and ask you to forgive me of my sins" "I turn from those sins (this is repentance) and accept Christ as my Savior and Lord today" If those words are sincere, one is born again. Christ becomes Savior as easy as that. It's so easy until it causes many to disbelieve it is possible, but this is God's doing. It's the way He set it up.
9" That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10
Jesus becomes our Savior the moment we pray that prayer. We are born-again and through prayer, Scripture and time spent in fellowship with other believers, we learn how to let Him also become Lord of our lives. That's why some refer to Him as Savior and Lord. This is His rightful place in the lives of all who say they belong to Him. Yes, Savior, but also Lord over all we are.
you must have great respect for the idea of God and right wing fundamentalists because you follow the Rev. Donald. Hence all your arguments are based on a flawed and bizarre premise.
Haw Haw, oz, you never give up, do you. But the best you do is further convince me that the god of your mind and of Galaxy's only exists in your minds, is yours alone, and does not belong in my life. And I am so relieved by that. Thank you!
That gives me an idea for a comedy sitcom called "Fawlty Premise" about an eccentric man who doesn't believe in God but who worships a right wing Christian fundamentalist.
Do you also love the Rev. Donald? Fawlty very very fawlty premise to do so.
Assuming you don't love the Rev. Donald like Mr Fawlty Premise, you should know by now I don't ascribe to any right wing fundamentalist view. Many atheists here (besides Mr Fawlty Premise?) seem to adhere to the Buddhist religion. Such Eastern advanced religions see the individual as a God or universal "cosmic consciousness". This is closer to my view and does not resemble right wing back woods Donaldite fundamentalism at all.
The misery,suffering,and pain of the majority of mankind lays at the feet of the very same god who helped little Johnny's softball team win their game last night (because they knelt and preyed) while thirty thousand kids around the world starved to death...and claiming god cant change that is bullshit.
Micro:Your wonderful (for the most part) life reflects a wonderful God.
Macro:The horrific and random things that happen to most people (regardless of good or bad behavior) reflects a god who is incompetent at best and down right Evil at worst.
"When I was a child,I thought as a child,I spoke as a child,and I acted as a child.When I became a man I put away childish things"~The Bible~
Don't be afraid to join right on in...Cause if God really does exist it's clear by his actions he doesn't give a good god damn about us...
When we read the English versions of the Bible, it is important to know the Greek or Hebrew meaning of the word "God" or "god" and how it is used in context. There is the one true Lord God, and all His specific names. Then, there are other meanings for the same word used, and that is where much confusion comes from. Even the fallen angels and the god of this world that is known as satan, and all of the earthly rules and leaders can be all inclusive in the English interruption of "God" in some Scriptures. So much is lost in translation to English, studying and knowing the ancient text unlocks that.
The Lord God is not schizophrenic.
The "god of this world" doesn't give a god damn about us, neither do the fallen angels (sons of god), or Lucifer's followers...unless we happen to be disposable useful idiots.
And how would you define, or recognise, a "disposable, useful idiot?"
It would have to be a very insecure judgement, colorfulone.
Is 'God' all powerful?
Is 'God' all knowing?
Is 'God' just?
Is 'God' benevolent?
Is 'God' Perfect?
Those are just a few of the requirements to BE God...in any country at any time in any language!
Ultimately (if religions perfect God exists) everything is known to and under his control...or he...is...not...God...
The bad guy Lucifer,Satan,devil etc argument is a Straw Man argument...Because (if God is God) even the Devil was created and is under the control of God...
So answer me this;Why does this wonderful loving 'God' let Bad things happen to Good innocent people?...and why do religionists always resort to name calling when these arguments happen?...perhaps there are one or two "useful idiots" on your side of the fence as well...all due respect of course...
"So answer me this;Why does this wonderful loving 'God' let Bad things happen to Good innocent people?...and why do religionists always resort to name calling when these arguments happen?"
Its called the Fall.
Religionists? Is that a form of name calling?
I wrote "...unless we happen to be disposable useful idiots."
The "we" makes the description inclusive, not name calling. I guess people read into things they want to for the sake of arguing or something, I don't know. I wasn't arguing either.
According to Scripture we live in a fallen world since the Fall of Man.
Satan is the god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4).
...and he is called 'the evil one'...
1 John 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
So, what is it that "the evil one" does that controls the world?
This is a Christian view of life here on earth according to Scriptures. That is what the thread is about, our views.
Atheist. Is that a form of name calling? Cuts both ways, doesn't it?
From a cosmic viewpoint, an eternal view, would your argument remain sound? How could we know? If our existence is, ultimately, eternal is your argument sound?
... The most unsurprising result of these religionist replies is always the same...side step direct questions,jump to the nebulous ephemeral cosmic 'what if' and turn the tables to put the questioner on the defensive...same old same old.
Anybody care to explain why Bad things happen to Good people?Why this perfect cosmic,mysterious God allows natural disasters to kill hundreds of thousands of people for no reason?...but somehow loves and cherishes every hair on our heads and even cries with us when we bury those dead folks that he could have saved ...or will you come up with some more slippery sidestepping?
And how is the word 'religionist' not,at least,a little better than 'Useful Idiot' ?
The incredible dissonance and diametric cherry picking of beliefs in religion is terrifying in that you people actually vote!
Why do bad things happen to good people?
Again, from an eternal perspective, can we definitively say that is true? What is bad? Who is good?
You want to define God, good, bad. You want to pass judgment without a full understanding of universal law. It can't be done.
Quoting the bible to prove it's valid is absurd.Give us some testable,repeatable by anyone,evidence or keep chasing your tail...and BTW,this thread is open so don't be exclusionary.
I'm not going to launch into the concept of universal application and weather it benefits or harms mankind to counter the 'how do you know what's good or bad' argument either...you should already know that or you haven't done your homework.
So let's make this real simple...
STATEMENT:If God is all good and evil exists,he is not all powerful therefore he is not God.
If God is all powerful and evil exists,he is not all good therefore he is not God....Make that work.
The problem you religionists have is in your "God is perfect" declaration...then you scramble through apologetics to rationalize and explain away how this Sewer of a world is his creation but we and some bad angles messed it up.How can you blame all the bad stuff on 'fill in the blank' when your God is ALL POWERFUL!
How hard is it to understand that ultimately,no matter how you cut it, the stink of this world leads back to HIM! If this 'God' was real he'd make everything perfect with the tiniest of thoughts and the blink of an eye.
That's the self involved micro view;"My life is fine so the world is OK". Take the macro view of the billions who suffer every day and live in misery...and tell me what a paradise this 'world' is...and what happened to your 'Cosmic' perspective?And for anyone else following this thread...notice how not one of the questions i've asked or explanations I've asked for have been offered...just condemnation from the religionist God delusion believing ...
no one is condemning you, or anything else. You say it's a sewer of a world. I said enjoy the ride. That's not a condemnation, simply an acceptance of your view of your world.
I'll tell you. My life is not 'fine' by my standards. However, I know that many, many people can have the same experience and each will view it in a different manner. To some, an experience represents the end of their world, to another the end of their happiness, to another it's just an experience little different from any other. You choose to see the world in the light you choose to see it.
You talk about billions of people suffering every day and living in misery. I've read that third world nations are peopled by those who are happier than those of us in first world nations. They have nothing, by our standards, yet are happy. You may be miserable and suffering but they aren't. Do you ever wonder why? Do they choose to be happy? It's a mystery to me but you claiming their misery does not make them miserable. It is just another example of how you taint the world with your own choice of vision.
My comments about cosmic perspective are simply pointing out that if we are more than the here and now then the here and now is nothing. We certainly can't see that now. Right now, it is all that matters to us. But, my personal belief in my current suffering would seem shallow and silly if I suddenly could view my existence from an eternal view point. Whatever suffering I perceived having gone through in this life would be little different from me whining about a hangnail as if it were somehow the end of the world.
If you want to whine about life that is your choice but you can't expect anyone to spend any amount of time attempting to convince someone who chooses to be miserable that the choice they've made is their choice and it does not effect anyone but them.
And again...the slippery side stepping without addressing the inequities "third world people are happy"???Holy Shit! the delusion goes deeper than I ever thought...and BTW,I'm comfortably retired...nothing to complain about personally which serves to highlight the 'human condition' of 'Billions' of others (can you say,Research) and makes me wonder why the innocents suffer while your god sits back and allows it.So It's my "Whining" VS your 'what if' pontificating and that's become down right obtuse...take comfort in your delusional view of this 'Paradise' you've created in your mind and have a fun pretend life...
Just in the short time you have comfortably participated on this thread Id bet millions of delusional religionist have donated multi millions in clothes, food and care to the " less comfortable". I do not believe that Gods goal would be to create fat, happy pets. But feel free to scapegoat something I believe you would, in odd contradiction, claim does not exist.
Although I do it myself, it's always interesting to see someone trying to define God's goals, interests, etc. We often have enormous trouble understanding the inner workings of someone from another culture, yet feel fairly confident we can understand an entity from not only a different culture but a different universe. One that has less similarity to us than a virus does and one whose "culture" is as far from anything on earth as it is possible to get (a culture of one individual that can have anything it wants). And yet one whose wants, desires and goals are intensely anthropomorphic.
It would seem more apropos to take exception to the one making the assertion of an expectation of an anthropomorphic cosmic babysitter than one offering a juxtaposition. But thats just me. Regardless, I find it interesting that the unbeliever seems preoccupied with, sewers, cesspools and viruses.
The 'Contribution' of some Christians to the poor is commendable...but doesn't scratch the surface of repairing the damage (like the pope telling all those HIV infected African parishioners that using condoms is a sin) done by Christianity.Helping others is a noble and should be a selfless act as a matter of compassion;that does not require religion as a motivator.If being a Christian is your reason for helping others(or your reason for not being a criminal),you should seriously question your real motives.An act of kindness done with the 'going to hell if you don't' gun pointed at your soul has no existential value what so ever.
I don't think I am side stepping anything. I have a different outlook on life than you have. Your outlook is yours, alone. It doesn't matter what anyone might say, you have made up your mind that the world sucks. As to third world people being happy, read this.
http://www.pravdareport.com/society/sto … r_happy-0/
This isn't a delusion. It is research and studies done. I'm glad you are comfortably retired and have nothing to complain about. But don't assume everyone else is suffering because they don't have whatever it is you have. Yes people suffer. I'm not certain why that is some god's responsibility when it is obvious that we could alleviate the suffering of our fellow humans on many levels. We choose not to. Some (such as yourself) slough it off on a god shirking their responsibilities.
You should take comfort in your delusions also. Although, they don't sound like very happy ones.
Studies have shown for many years that the poorest countries have the highest importance on religion for a sense of happiness and well-being.
I don't understand worshiping cows when people are starving. ... but if that makes them happy! Maybe the religion has something to do with the lack of provisions in countries?
One universal rule appears to apply. People can be idiots.
".....may be true that it is not the standard of living in a particular country, but the attitude of the citizens that matters."
I wonder where the U.S. of A. came in that list. A country with some of the richest people (and the poorest) people in the world, and supposedly one with the most religion. The latter is renowned for making people appear happy on the outside yet, in reality, worried like hell on the inside.
Your link is a fine example of confirmation bias,alive and well.The real irony of this is here we have an 'old bearded man in the sky who dose things for you if you prey the right way' believer calling someone else delusional.
Check out the stats on how 'Billions' don't have even the basic necessities of life while western fat cats sit around wasting those necessities.
Ultimately this whole argument boils down to one question that you magical thinking religionists (All religions) never have been able to answer.
Why does your all good,all powerful God let bad things happen to good people?
If anyone can justify keeping a young teenage daughter in an underground bunker and forcing her to bear her fathers children for twenty some odd years as Joseph Fritzel' did in Austria,while God (Who Must have Known) sat by and did nothing (and this is one example among millions)...even though he could have,I'll concede this argument and never bring it up again.
Personally I dont think Id want to live in a world where the outlook of " the glass is half empty" was not possible. The outlook of the glass is half empty of hemlock, however, begins to grate.
Really??...Are you really going to reduce this exchange to the very thing you deny doing?
I must admit I am in awe of how vast the repertoire of side stepping,ignoring,and cherry picking tricks to validate religion is.
Still,you could get an apology if you answer the question...
I couldn't give a rat's behind whether you apologize, or not. I suppose the question you are asking is why does God let bad things happen to good people. As shallow as the question is it is difficult to answer. Since you are simply asking why, at any given time and point in space-time, someone is experiencing some form of difficulty. Because, that is what this boils down to. It wouldn't matter if 100% of all people had 99.9% great times there would still be the .1% that some (such as yourself) could whine about. And, I'll tell you. Everything is relative. If we had 100% of our lives led in what is currently perceived as wonderful grandeur then we would reevaluate what constitutes wonderful grandeur and we would relegate some portion of our experience to the category of bad times.
Best I can say is...shit happens. Deal with it.
Awe...did I trigger the little pseudo intellectual into letting their Real nature out?Did I touch on one of the delusions you hide behind cause you're afraid of reality?You should really at least try to let go of your mommy's dress hem you know.You've soaked in your pretend enlightenment for so long you think it's real...that's adorable...
Don't worry about your rat's ass...you haven't earned an apology let alone respect... but you're right about shit happening(though I'm sure there's no God involved). I doubt you've ever had to go through it yourself.I hope you get that chance at least once in your sheltered little life...lol
Wow. I was simply thinking if I started responding, in kind, it would appease you. Guess not.
And, again. I am not in search of an apology and considering the little respect you have elicited from me I wouldn't expect more in return. I do feel sorry for people with such angst and bitterness but I can't crawl up into your wee little head and make it better. .That's something you'll have to buck up and do for yourself.
And I am going through a great tragedy in my life at the moment. Perhaps the benevolent force of the universe will take pity on me and give me some relief. Perhaps not. But, if it does it is not because I am somehow worthy of anything more so than the next person. Conversely, if it doesn't I am not somehow less worthy.
So you know, I don't put any stock in religion. All people seek answers to the universal questions. We all seek God whether we choose to define it as that, or not.
Can someone explain to me why some atheists appear to be so bitter toward those who believe in a higher power? I don't care what others believe so long as their beliefs don't involve hurting others, nor are beliefs contrary to my own offensive. They are, after all, simply beliefs.
Why must some atheists lash out in what can only be construed as hatred?
Its almost like there is some sort of fray behind the scene.
Exactly. But I feel as if such a person perceives my position in the exchange as a deer in high beams when what I feel like is someone standing on a meadow watching a train jumping the tracks.
The phenomenon of this sort of exchange has become more and more common in today's world;It is the quintessential conservative VS progressive argument applied to other than politics.One side (conservatives) argue from logic,fact,and reason.The other (progressives) argue from emotion,personal anecdote,and disingenuous spirituality.The two schools are mutually exclusive in all areas of life;It is diametric and paradoxical and always will be;It is predictable and dangerous in every instance.
This argument was religious;Believer VS unbeliever.In politics it is conservative VS liberal.In male/female relationships it tends to be simply the logical male VS the emotional female.The reason VS emotion paradigm has existed from the beginning and will probably continue till the end....whatever that may be. ....
The underlying problem here is a characteristic which ALL humans share...arrogance.There are things we know;there are things we don't know;There are things we know we don't know;There are things we don't know that we don't know and finally...there are things we are incapable of apprehending with our tiny minds...like infinity,quantum flux,and whether or not there is such a thing as 'God'...no evidence of any kind exists...but that doesn't matter to the emotion based liberal mind set.If 'Believing' softened or helped us accept the foreknowledge of our own mortality only,that would be great...but it doesn't;Believers/religionists/organized religion have been at the root of the most horrific murderous wars and mass killings through out history.Religious administrations have been nothing short of catastrophic.Religion has been the greatest scourge of and done the greatest harm to humanity....and the sooner it is eradicated the better...for ALL of us...including the limp biscuits on this thread...
Hello? Reality check? Highest body count for murderous wars and mass killings attributed to religion? Think Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, etc. Tally the death toll and rethink. Tally the death toll of European imperialism.
I would submit that arrogance is the root cause of atheism. The arrogant belief that personal opinion trumps personal experience. I firmly believe that each believer takes an ounce of truth and wraps it inside of fifteen ounces of speculation, which creates conflict and confusion, but the ounce of truth remains; which causes the atheist to create conflict and confusion by denying the experience of the lion's share of humanity.
I have only met one true atheist in my life. Only one truly felt they had never been part of a greater whole, harbored no animosity toward belief because they truly never experienced it.
So, once you eradicate beliefs from the minds of human beings, will you try to eradicate emotions from quote: "emotional females" ? Would they be next? And by "better for ALL of us" do you mean only people that subscribe to your beliefs and emotions?
cheaptrick is talking eugenics! Gasp, that's the twisted mind set our education system produces. The new cult religion of science, and sounding very religious at that, wanting to control the masses!
"The horrible mess that is now public education is a direct result of the work of these men, their colleagues and disciples. The academic and moral disintegration of the system was caused by the widespread adoption and implementation of the policies based on eugenics, socialism, behavioral psychology, and humanism. As long as these basic policies remain the underpinnings of the system, no meaningful reform will be possible."
* http://www.thenewamerican.com/component … Itemid=660
God help us!
"God help us" indeed! Do you see what you have done?!
You have immediately applied all of your biases and preconceptions to what cheaptrick wrote, then come up with the false statement: "cheaptrick is talking eugenics." That is patently not true.
"Wanting to control the masses" is and always has been a desire of institutionalised religion. Scientific inquiry has the potential to free individuals from that yoke of religion; and by golly doesn't religion squirm when threatened with bold, honest, skepticism?
Now, having read through that exerpt from the New American, I am equally appauled at the warped thinking which ultimately led to the genocide perpetrated in Germany.
We have to lift our human brains into a higher realm, observing our world holistically instead of playing the fear-game with differences.
Some excellent examples of cherry picking,distortion,side stepping,and emotional histrionics here...not to mention a bit of a 'gang' mentality which is common among religionists...and the severely mentally handicapped...Hmm...that was a redundant statement...
The thing about this God delusion that stands out most is the tenacity with which believers hold on to it,even in the face of overwhelming evidence;It's a 'have your cake and eat it too' mindset replete with trigger accusations designed to bypass reason and get that knee jerk Emotional reaction of condemnation and disdain that religionists are so fond of...as they bask in and reinforce their mutual sense of self righteousness...and that is why nonbelievers eventually stop trying to get through to them...it's that headache we get from banging our heads against the wall of delusion they've built around themselves...I'm reminded of Einsteins definition of insanity which brings me back to the most fundamental question of all...Why?
Which one do you see yourself as, Live to Learn? Or if neither, where do you sit in the theist/atheist, religion/science, illogical/logical spectra?
Just wondering, that's all.
That's a toughie. I'm a theist, of sorts, but I see us in a position where we are on our own, together, with the primary guideline for interaction as Jesus' example. God is simply a concept in our minds, at this point, so it shouldn't cause contention in human interactions. I suppose if God sided with any faction he'd chirp up and put his two cents worth in. As it stands, I don't think what we think of God is of as much importance to God as how we treat our fellow humans.
Science trumps religion because if your beliefs don't match up to reality you've got a problem. I would think I caucus with the side of logic however, I think there is at least one on this thread who would argue that point.
Does that answer the questions?
Yes, thank you. You and I occasionally cross swords but not in a disrespectful way; just sharing a few opposite views is not in itself unfriendly.
Sorry if anything I do say is taken as disrespectful.
I have gone back to some of the very early posts in this thread. Here is a snippet:
"Nothing can create without a mind and will to do so. The universe has no will and no mind."
Most of us, most of the time, can only see things from a human perspective and human understanding. Any concept beyond that cannot be described without the use of metaphor. That's fine...but we need to beware of regarding the metaphorical picture as reality.
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