John 3:1-8 has a dialog instructing ‘sons of god’ to go through a spiritual birth and tells us what to look for in those claiming it.
The Bible’s first rebirth reference is Genesis 3:24’s going through the flaming sword and returning to the garden’s way of life.
Romans 1:20 tells us the made things reveals invisible things such as the new birth, do we who claim it have such evidence?
Hebrews 11:1 tells us the faith to accomplish it requires finding evidence and substance to reveal it, where is our's?
We who are must have a testimony of it and I would like to hear others.
I’m interested in testimonies of others claiming it. I will give mine after hearing some others.
You might consider defining what "born again" means to you, in this forum.
Is it coming of legal age? Maturing to the point of caring for oneself? Maturing to the point of understanding and using a reasonable set of morals and ethics? Is it deciding there is a god and worshiping that god? Is it growing able and willing to give charity?
When one reads and comprehend Genesis 3:24 we see human being required to return to ecological living after being banished from it.
Realizing Romans 1:20's telling us something happens similar to the natural birth should provide a clue.
Hebrews 11:1's encouraging us to find things which we know that could represent "new birth" should suggest something in the self-reproducing environment is an example.
Those things were given so people could consider what event(s) in their lives can point to a conception, gestation, trivial, birth, babyhood, childhood, adolescent hood and adulthood happening. With that being said, "Born Again" is a metamorphosis which returns each recipient back to harmonious living in the eco system. So, do you have testimony of your being born again or not, Wilderness?
Glad I asked, because that certainly isn't what I learned sitting in the church pews.
Can't say I live a green life. I go to great lengths to limit energy usage from home to car, but I still use it, and more than any other species of animal on the planet. Not a glutton, but still eat more than I should and certainly more than is necessary to sustain life. I live in a single family home in the burbs, not an anthill high rise in the city or even a cave in the wild. I own toys from computers to TV's to an RV, and use them all - consuming nature's resources that is not necessary for life to continue.
So, according to a strict interpretation of living in harmony with the rest of nature I have not been re-born. And don't know a single person or speak to a single person, that does.
How does people who aren't empowered with the "dominion" abilities of the rebirth (John 3:3-8) expect to reveal things of the spirit? The church is a group of people professing they believe in Jesus the christ but unwilling to obey his teachings. The John passage above is the first step to obtaining the ability to convey spiritual things. So, unless one has become born again with testimony of it they will not b e able to sew spiritual seeds.
How? Because they say they can. Just as some say there is a "spirit" at all, but without ever providing any proof of one. All it takes is a statement that they are "reborn" (living green, according to you) and suddenly they have the right, duty and obligation to spread their own startling interpretations and spirituality to everyone else. Whether that "someone else" shares the same interpretations/thoughts or not. They have, after all, been "reborn" - they said so!
Many things said is not true, to say one can do something doesn't mean they can.
"Living Green" isn't living ecologically, ecological living means olive without making anything to protect one from the elements. "Living Green" without knowing the effects of uncooked foods will discarnate one when ignored.
Your "- they said so! -" is exactly why I want a testimony from others.
I think it is when someone has been baptized by a priest or minister in the church of their choice after consciously accepting Jesus as their savior. I would say guru. They might not use that word. They then live with the sole purpose to satisfy Him. They try their very best to do God's will. They know they are not perfect and accept their human foibles, all the while striving to go forward with pure intentions. I would say they perform Karma yoga for spiritual growth. They might not use that term and shirk from such words as karma and guru.
I am not born again because I shirk from formal things such as baptisms.
That is the traditional Christian concept of "born again" but according to the biblical references given above water baptism is only symbolic.
In many cases the Bible use water as a symbol for knowledge and understanding. An explanation is Matthew 28:19's "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." That implies the name of the "father" is also common ("and of the") to the "son's" and "holy ghost's" names, which is a knowledge. One would not be able to immerse others in that name without knowing it and what it's meaning imply.
The definition of the "father's" name is I AM THAT I AM which is required to be in the "son's" and "holy ghost's" names. Then we would have to know what I AM THAT I AM means. The literal meaning is "you can call me god and I an, you can call me devil and I am, call me any of the terms you favor and I am or call me all the names you reject and I still am." Thus, when one is born again they see no good nor evil, god nor devil nor anything man began to judge "either or" upon being put out of the garden.
So, what I was asking for is testimony of what happened to other "born again" people which brought them into such state of "it is what it."
In my opinion, its original intent was to be 'born again' in the spirit of Jesus Christ. That spirit being an understanding of the true intent of universal law. That would be looking at the reasons for, and the intent behind, Judaic law. Living by the intent, not the letter. Seeing the why and embracing it, of the things that are right and good. Not simply plodding along, filling blocks, in order to be perceived as good.
That, Live to Learn, is the basics of what I'm looking for but it missed the fact that "I’m interested in testimonies of others claiming it." I've often asked people who claim the new birth for testimony but none of their's presents a conception, gestation, trivial, birth nor which stage of birth they are, baby, child, adolescent or adult. As for me, I have 41 years of birth and still only an adolescent awaiting my adulthood which will happen when I obtain the "dominion ab ileitis" he who is called Jesus Christ demonstrated.
I would think we were all adolescents, cosmically speaking. Whether born again, or not.
You exaggerate. The universe is 10 Billion years older than the earth, the earth is 4.5 Billion years older than the human species and the human species is 150,000 years older that you and I are - we aren't completely out of the womb yet!
(cosmically speaking, of course)
From your perspective, of course. I was thinking spiritually. I think the obvious truths (spiritually) are easily seen, not so easily grasped, as the mind expands with physical experiences.
But, for sure. Physically,as a species, we are not even babes in the woods. Not even zygotes. We are little more than the sparkle in our father's eye, maybe?
Oh, we have to be zygotes at least; we exist, and more than just a concept.
But spirituality and the cosmos? I would postulate that we can't have the faintest notion of what spirituality means cosmically. Until we've met and interacted with a thousand or so of those (presumed) ET's out there, we cannot know what it is. Perhaps we are children - children who are selfish and self-serving, then grow into young adults that are more "spiritual" towards our fellow children, and then finally come to understand that we cannot change the world. True spiritual maturity may be the understanding and willingness to destroy all other intelligence we find. Or perhaps it's the ability to become pure energy, or even leave this universe altogether. Or maybe we are alone, and have every natural right to decide for the universe what it means to think and behave spiritually.
We cannot know, and to think that we have a handle of what the term means to the cosmos is egocentricity on a massive scale.
You "would postulate that we can't have the faintest notion of what spirituality means cosmically" but I disagree. The spirit of the "cosmos" runs through every entity within and without of it just as our life-forces runs through everything within our bodies, including diseases, therefore the cosmos is able to change at the "its will" what things are and do. That is the same principle behind man's ability to heal one's self but only after understanding it via New Birth. Would the scripture say "physician heal thyself" if it wasn't possible? That would make no sense.
Why are we told "man are gods" in our law if we don't have the ability to comprehend all things and do what god can? If that wasn't so scripture would be lying to us so why believe a lie?
Every physical manifestation is a conglomerate of living entities consuming one another to sustain themselves and their specie, what happens in one place happens in all localities, thus we have "the macro being the same as the micro."
Oh, I agree that to say we know would be egocentric. I prefer to believe all have a tiny bit of the truth and in order to have more you have to be willing to listen with an open mind and a dose of skepticism. Unfortunately, skepticism and ridicule can look alike, so those you hope to glean information from are sometimes less than forthcoming.
I like that - that skepticism and ridicule can look alike - for it is absolutely true. But I have to wonder, then, if skepticism is taken as ridicule by a listener because they know they cannot show truth in their statements? Being caught out is always embarrassing, and it's human nature to turn the anger of that embarrassment against the one causing it.
We may indeed all have a bite of the truth, but until we can know that bite is truth and not just a cheetoh, it isn't worth much. Our species has come up with some of the most outlandish beliefs, based on thought, desire, wish, curiosity or anything else, but never actual observation and tests, that you'd think we would learn better. But we continue to do it - our demand for answers is insatiable and we aren't that concerned enough about the truth of those answers.
I think it is less embarrassment for some, and more a frustration of not being able to articulate in a manner the listener can understand. And there is, of course, the unwillingness of one to accept the testimony of another.
But, I agree. While lack of proof exists we all need to hold our beliefs loosely and be willing to reevaluate as we slowly feed our insatiable need for answers.
Holding our beliefs loosely while listening to another belief and then objectively looking at both beliefs together to incorporate and reject what is in both views to make either a more comprehensibly explained, in my findings, is the primary means of finding the whole truth concerning any subject.
One cannot "objectively" look at any belief, no matter how hard or loosely held. Nor does one accept or reject beliefs to make a more logical, comprehensible or desired belief, for truth is not to be found in thought, guesses and imagination. Only in observation, and repeated observation at that.
I didn't know I was doing the impossible when I was doing that. Maybe I was because I an no longer human or woman as my "new birth" made me into a man although not of the age to reproduce as of yet.
All truth is a belief until all pros and cons have been answered and proven, via finding their place or lack place in the subject matter.
I was thinking the other way - that a listener hearing skepticism takes it as ridicule because they cannot show their belief to be true and know it. But the speaker, just as you say, then becomes frustrated at being unable to articulate their skepticism for what it is.
Sorry. I was coming from the angle of the believer. The skeptic probably moves from skepticism to ridicule as the one attempting to share the belief becomes more and more aware of the fact that their explanations are constantly questioned and, or, denounced.
I do believe that, especially in this type of environment,many have no real interest other than to attempt to disprove the validity of the belief of another. Which exacerbates the problem.
LOL About as many trying to disprove the validity of unsupported beliefs as are trying to prove the validity of their beliefs.
But I don't see most skeptics intentionally moving from skepticism to ridicule, at least as long as their "opponent" remains civil as well. Some do, of course; there are always trolls around. It doesn't do much good to ridicule people in most cases.
I really do think that frustration plays a bigger part than anything else, at least when people aren't just trolling and looking for a fight. I know it does to me - when someone insists that their beliefs are correct but refuse to give me the same courtesy frustration inevitably sets in and yes, it can get to the point where I begin to ridicule the insistence that a completely unsupported belief is absolutely correct..."because I just "know" it is".
(Of course I kind feel like I'm being ridiculed when someone tells me they "know" something because their god gave them the knowledge...knowledge that the next person making a claim will refute with knowledge the same god gave them)
I agree with your first paragraph completely.
As for truth, actually, all truth is contained within us but until we are born again we are not allowed to bring it forth until we are no longer human or woman [both meaning minds unable to comprehend all things] by being reborn into man [minds able to comprehend all things].
That is the reason I desire to hear other's testimony of their new birth.
I believe it would be more accurate to say listen "objectively willing to explore those different outcomes and then reason with one's findings" instead of skepticism.
I believe it is impossible for human to apply a date to anything on that sliding scale you provided. All scriptures suggests nothing had a beginning except for a specific manifestation that re-manifests unceasingly. Everything has a pacific time to manifested itself to human while man perceive they have never been without their manifestations.
Human determine everything's being are like their temporal manifestations with beginnings and endings that suggests "there was a time when existence did not exist" which is an error of perception. Everything has always existed in the recognized manifestation or a decomposed form of itself [see my hub "The Bible's Cycle"] but everything has always been in existence.
While you have every right to your own beliefs, and every right to express them, those rights do not mean that those beliefs have any connection to reality. Using scripture (whether the bible in some version or another, the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, the Tripitaka or any other scripture) does not add to your argument, either.
For instance: there is absolutely no reason to think that the human species is anything but a blip on the cosmic radar. No reason to even consider that the rest of the cosmos was designed for us, that cosmic events happen with any regard to us at all. Certainly most things existing today did not exist before this, not even if we accept that a "decomposed" something is the same as the something is (which is patently false).
Believe what you want, all scriptures confirm my beliefs, it is people's inability to see similarities which blind them, thus, the reason one needs the "new birth" to comprehend spiritual things.
I shall, the same as you do. But it IS interesting that you have "interpreted" all scriptures from all religious beliefs to say the same thing - I dare say there isn't another person in the world that would make such a claim.
All religions comes from the source called god so in one form or another all religions say "god is one" [THE whole] meaning all religions' messages are intertwined.
Take Ajuna's being instructed to kill his family members in the opposing army, that's saying the same as Matthew 19:29 and Genesis 3:24, have no attachments for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. When read understanding the words meanings they do say basically the same.
Adolescents means "weaned from nursing parents but not of the an adult at the age of reproduction". Since the christ said "there sower went forth to sow" (Mat. 13:3-9) he would have to be referring to reborn adults and not prepubescent adolescents for they would not have the understanding which would cause the reproduction of such truth in others.
No one alive today appears to have that ability. Everyone talks but only an arrogant fool thinks he's 'reproducing truth'.
That is EXACTLY the reason I say I am only an adolescent, the ones I've seen didn't reveal their ability to me but they made me know they were in other ways.
I've met an about 50-year-old girl with all of the "dominion" abilities the christ demonstrated but almost no reasoning abilities associated with normal living. Because of her, and other girls who can perform but can not reveal how they do it, I've concluded "femininity" represents "spiritual abilities" while "masculinity" represents the "intellectual ability of reasoning."
She has memory of her physical conception, things happened during her gestating, her physical birth, born able to verbally talk, read people lives, levitate, learned how to disappear and do so many of the things the christ supposedly demonstrated but, before meeting me some three years ago, had no understanding of how to even use those powers to protect herself. She was sent to me to reveal what I will be like once I'm a spiritual adult and for me to show her how to use her abilities to protect herself and others and to reason the whys and hows of things during our eight-day fellowship.
That is what makes me to realize I am not a spiritual adult.
My "New Birth" testimony is found http://prop1.org/protest/elijah/nature.htm with the content title of "The Book Of Elijah: A Letter To The World."
I can guarantee you that,after your first paragraph, if I read anything you wrote it would be for amusement only.
That is why people don't believe in what the Bible and other scripture say, everything in most of them suggest things just as bazar so I can clearly understand your and probably most people's stands.
I have no real problem with the Bible. You appear to be stuck in traditional church philosophy on some things. I simply see Jesus, his actions and his words as being in direct contrast to your beliefs.
Evidently you have no "spiritual" eyes. Nothing I talk about is on the level of traditional views. Yes, I use traditional terms so people will understand what I'm talking about but I don't define them the way traditional church do. Even the word "church" I defend according to how the one called Christ meant it, "the callout from the world's mindset and behavior".
If I was traditional shouldn't I be interested in getting paid for what I say - which I am not interested in? Wouldn't I be dressing traditionally - which I don't? Wouldn't I be condemning people as sinners, standing in between them and the opportunity to find truth by demanding they follow me - which I don't? So, how can you even begin to believe I am traditional?
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