There is a forum topic that is current right now about a woman who committed a terrible crime against another human being. The topic discusses the punishment/rehabilitation and what should be done in these cases.
It got me thinking about my reactions to these horrific crimes that come into the news. From the german guy Joseph Fritzl to the tortures inflicted on Jaycee lee my mind boggles at this type of extreme cruelty.
I believe in the soul, I believe that we are more then the sum of our parts and that is because of our souls. My first reaction to Joseph Fritzl was that this individual is lacking the most fundamental component to being human, a soul. This belief colors my opinion as to the appropriate course of action to take with this crime. My main value in this regard is to safe guard the public and maintain the moral values of the public who in different ways aim for moral greatness. The death penalty is objectionable in these cases not because of the villains who will die but because the public sentiment will be to feel their values may be lessened with the death penalty. It is a noble value to feel distain for legalized murder by the government in the form of death penalties.
I think that the moral argument for and against the death penalty may well hinge on our individual beliefs on the existence of soul and the nature of the soul. I would be very interested to read others views on this topic?
Yes, I think everyone has a soul. What actions we take through the course of our lives either expand or diminish our souls. I wonder sometimes, when I read of heinous crimes and terrible things people do to some children, if the perpetrators may finally dirty and sully and shrink their souls into non-existence.
But I think we're all born with something, something special, something else that's an inner part of our beings that isn't material.
I feel so sorry for the victims, but I don't see how killing the perpetrator helps the victims except as a harsh warning to others, not to commit these crimes because of the extreme consequences; so there may be a deterring factor.
For the perpetrator, he/she has created their own hell.
Another argument FOR the death penalty says, well, they won't do it again if their dead, and that carries a little weight with me, as well.
It would be so much better if we were all healed from the wish to do violence of any kind against each other.
We're all equipped with an essence you could call the soul, like anything else, it can be either enhanced or ignored. The latter action opens that person to commit hideous crimes or at the very least indifference. The opposite causes great achievements.
Every single one alive have a soul. The soul in what makes us decide our every day activities.
The soul decision in our every day life activities depends largely on the influence of the body of flesh contrasting with the Spirit.
The greater the influence of the body of flesh will manifest itself in the attributes of the selfish lifestyle.
The greater the influence of the Spirit will be manifested in the selfless tendencies.
I believe in soul (but one that is not related to hell etc.), because I believe in kharma, i grew up with the values surrounding having a soul. When a hungry child knocks to our door, my mother will always tell me, have a soul, give her a food. Killers are without a soul sort of that thing. Whatever you do here on earth is carried until afterlife, your soul will suffer, thats a very basic catholic teaching. we celebrate all souls day, november 1st. when you die, you die physically but your soul lives in forever, in hell or in heaven something like that, As I become older though I dont buy that anymore.
As with regards death penalty, it is difficult for other country because justice is paid. Rich people with good lawyers cant get away with anything, and only the poor people are executed. (loopholes in the justice system). What if you kill somebody wrongly accused, and after many years because we have DNA now, he isnt actually the one who committed the crime?
I know from psalm 139 God knows we have a soul from the moment we are concieved. He knows us as we are being formed in our Mothers tummy. He has mapped out our whole life before we are born. Who can know what we've thrown in garbage bags from all the abortions- who they might have been, whose life they might have changed, etc. Only God knows. Maybe the great leader we need now in America is in one of those garbage bags from 40 years ago? some of the best people come from humble child hoods. The rich young people think every thing should be just handed to them. They haven't grown characters. Anyway, something to think about.
It looks that you don't know much about rich people !
Not all of them are bad.
And I'm pro abortion.
for your record.
as it seems you like records a lot.
I can't believe you're a girl. Are you really a girl?
i think it is better for everyone that we admit that all have a soul, whatever that means.
Reckognition and respect I suppose
and these are very human values whose comprehension is in reach of any of us
I'm fed up with the 'christian way ' of prying in everybody's life!!
Don't you people have a life ?!
Just a thought. But if good people have a soul and killers don't, what happens if good people kill. As in the death penalty. I'm not blaming the excutioners particularly as they are acting on behalf of the good people. But doesn't the death penalty diminish the soul of everyone who is responsible for it? As in everybody? But isn't the soul eternal? Can it be diminished?
So if everybody has a soul so do killers. Or if killers don't have a soul nor does anybody else.
Consciousness of self. Nice idea. How do we get our leaders to do that?
With great difficulty it seems. No restraint. One party says the "wrong" thing and the other party loses it like a petulant child.
If they could read to grade four level I would suggest the excellent children's starter on basic interaction "I'm OK your OK".
I do not think too many of the worlds leaders are anywhere near sane either.
Power corrupts and all that jive!
There was an excellent series on TV some years ago you may remember. I think it was called "Our sick leaders" or similar.
It was an eye opener.
The word soul is a man-made creation to describe an individual to another individual.
Just as in the word 'spirit' is another way to describe a person.
I have to disagree with you on that one Cagsil. A good definition is: "The spirit is the eternal and incorruptable part of your essence, and the Soul or your Astral Body as the clothes around your essence while experiencing human life." It is the soul which is corruptable and often corrupt. It's the soul that loses integrity to a fallen state, and when one speaks of consciousness, firstly it's the consciousness of the entirety of the soul that is required before attaining and maintaining a higher state beyond the malaise of the human condition. That includes any dogmatic teachings that don't serve.
I realize you're understanding and where it comes from. I have no problem with what you've learned.
The actions of person are corruptable.
The thoughts of person are corruptable.
But, to establish a person has a 'soul' is and can only be done by the perspective of a person, who has seen the actions of someone else.
Each person can say "He has a good soul.", because they are judging the actions of an individual, but doesn't mean that there is actually anything other than normal body part.
Just like the 'spirit'- the only reason people believe that there is a spirit inside someone's body, would be because they believe in a higher power or authority and think that we move on to some other place after death.
Which is was is learned through religion.
That is why I say there isn't a soul or spirit in a body. Because, both are really defined by man, who is fallable.
Change your terminology perhaps. Higher power comes from yourself, it is not an external principal. You will find in my writing I do not speak of anything external. It's not necessary.
Spirit and Soul are like geographical features of states of consciousness. Use the words as a language only. If you can involute into your own self it's not hard to see. If however, you take the work of something else, you will come to the conclusions you have. Don't believe what other people tell you. Have your own experiences and see the principals inside yourself.
I don't do religion - it's up the proverbial creek.
Not just thinking. These are experiences. Too much thinking gets you into trouble. My favorite all time quote is this:
"An honest introspection, the exquisitely painful approach to Wisdom. Self-scrutiny, relentless observance of one's thoughts, is a stark and shattering experience. It pulverises the stoutest ego. But true self-analysis mathematically operates to produce seers. The way of "self-expression', individual acknowledgments, results in egotists, sure of the right to their private interpretations of God and the Universe.
Man can understand no eternal verity until he has freed himself from pretensions. The human mind, bared to a centuried slime, is teeming with the repulsive life of countless world delusions. Struggles of the battlefield pale into insignificance here, when man first contends with inner enemies!"
So certain. That makes me nervous. Certainty is one step away from dogma
How else would you explain why people actually do the things that they do?
And, please do not bring in religion, because that won't work and only provides a place to place blame.
So, what makes a person kill another?
What makes a man rape a women?
What makes a pedophile take advantage of kids?
And, you want to believe a soul really lives inside people?
Come on. Let's keep it real.
Actually, um, it's called free will. The concept of a soul has nothing to do with that.
Sure, why not? I have just as much proof as you do ;p
Here is my proof:
As I said: It is a word created by man-
definition: an entity which is regarded as being the immortal or spiritual part of the person and though having no physical or material reality is credited with the functions of thinking and willing, andhence determining all behavior.
That is the precise definition man has put on it.
Where did the word come from? Religion?
If religion didn't exist...you wouldn't even be talking about it.
Therefore, it doesn't exist.
Remember, religion...a man-made creation also.
The Soul is a persons psyche, it is that which animates the human body. Everyone has one, no-one is excluded from having a soul. It's what is done with the soul that is questionable. We live in a polarity, everything is mirrored or reflected. There is the choice to use the soul in whatever form and that is the positive or negative aspects of the soul. In spiritual work, it is the Soul that is subject to transformation. And so in the context of your post you are referring to people who've committed abhorrent crimes against another. A good question would be "Is every Soul transformable?"
The Soul is what makes psychiatrists and psychologists earn a paycheck. It is also what sends people to prison. And if you're a 'religious' person it's what sends you to either heaven or hell.
Well, it's easy to see why you have the numerous fan base; well-said.
You need to believe every person has a soul, because that's what you have been told all your life. It is understandable that it would be difficult to reverse course now.
So, I guess I'll just agree to disagree.
The term Soul equates to the astral body, but also with ancient Greek literature in which psyche (the soul) was the seat of emotions, passions and lower rational faculties). It's a term also used by Rudolf Steiner. This just clears up the definition of soul.
Unfortunately the term has been dramatized and romanticized in R&B music particularly. But it really is the term to describe emotions and thoughts. The good, bad and ugly. Allot of R&B is sad, it's not all lovey dovey coolness.
Another way perhaps to get around this issue is, instead of saying soul, say integrity or heart. Does a person who can lock up children for decades and rape his own children be a man of heart and integrity. There has to be something off center.
Why he did this - well the psychiatrists and psychologists will get to the bottom of that. Perhaps his own mother was the mother from hell. Maybe he was abandoned or neglected. Did his father beat the crap out of him?
Does he have a soul - yes he does, or course he does. Does he see his spirit - I doubt it very much, it's buried underneath allot of his mental crap.
Is his soul transformable? Good question. I don't know and it's not really my job to find out. I'd like to think so.
I've said this before in another forum, that the worse possible punishment you could give a person is to make them look at their own mind, sift through the malaise and transform it. It's hell and it makes that person live his/her own hell. It's putting light into the darkness. And some people have very dark places in their minds.
Having a good day ernest, about to head off the the gym - too much computer ain't good for the soul.
I agree incarceration is not done correctly. If I had my way criminals would learn the real deal of deconstruction and meditation. It's not light and love as the new agers would have you think. True self introspection is difficult. But really, it's what's necessary. I don't think prison guards are trained in such things!
I think we have 2 prison psychs in a state of 7 million!
that may change. I think every second person is doing psychology at university. Either they are looking for a job or sorting their own neurosis.
From the psych students I've met I think its probably the latter
That's why I dropped out of psych in college - too many neurosis', too many blahs, blah, blahs, too many marginal psych professors. If I couldn't get past all that, how would I ever be able to get past the clients?
I know this is a generalization, but I am pretty sure that most people who take psychology courses are wanting to change everyone else around them because they (the student) find people so screwed up and it upsets them. Funny though, it's the fact they are upset that needs fixing in most cases.
I thought many were looking for a way to avoid self examination, and thought if they did psych they would be able to explain to everyone what was wrong with them, so take no ownership of their own condition!
Yes, see if everyone else is fixed they don't have to look at themselves. It's a bit like if the savers save everyone else, they also will be saved - no self-responsibility type thinking.
Guilty as charged not until recently have I discovered the only way I'll ever help anyone is to fix my own screwed up life first and do something with it. It's not an easy thing to realize in the quest to save the world you need to start in your own mirror.
No us blackhearted viewpoint jumping defenders of all faith and beliefs don't partake of soul food.....But we do like burritos and Ramen noodles to fuel our crusades.
You know when you mention Ramen noodles, you may be summoning the spaghetti monster...
He popped into a forum a couple weeks ago, briefly, then disappeared again just as quickly...
I know scared the capitol letters right out of me. He's there lurking just off screen like some forgotten forum nightmare waiting to pounce on the unwary and unprepared.
Typical of a god to do that, drops in and leaves spaghetti sauce everywhere.
It's that evil twin toothed sky fairy that torments Earnest all the time that really scares me.
Do you need one of those psychologists wyajen or a good plate of spag bolognaise? either way, take a seat and tell me about it. When did you start having bad days?
Now I'm just hungry, what are you all doing to me. Good thing i still have a bag of Halloween candy
FSM works in mysterious ways... I could go for a plate myself...
Jewels, all I need to do is check in the forums, read some frickin' hilarious limericks, see what everybody is up to, and I'm good LOL
I'm just missing my dad for some reason today, so I came over to weigh in my opinion about the soul issue. All good now
"The road least traveled" Gutsy work that!
Have to wonder about the quality of insight though
From the psych students I've met I think its probably the latter.
I must step in to agree wholeheartedly with this! How do they get through? Some are bloody terrible and don't even understand underlying processes necessary to even grasp the subject! Blew me away!
In the state of the world today, it probably won't even be noticed.
Apparently, hookers do not have souls.
That assumption, at least, by reading many of the answers on a recent Hubpage thread.
Yea, everyone has a soul, some just are cold and mean, and the rest are caring and loving
If you are living in this world and breathing, you have a soul. The soul isn't anything but the blood that is traveling through our bodies. The story of Jesus dying on the cross and the soldier that pierced him in the side, recall what came out of him. It were water and blood, after he gave up the ghost. In order for the fleshly body to function it needs 4 things; spirit, blood, water, and ghost.
"My first reaction to Joseph Fritzl was that this individual is lacking the most fundamental component to being human, a soul."
I don't see a soul as a component of being human. If anything its the other way around. The human body is a part of the soul, which is eternal, and in response to your thread question . . of course, everyone has one (or rather is connected to one).
I imagine Joseph Fritzl's soul was none too happy with his actions, but he has free will, and that will not be interfered with.
This comes a little bit out of left field maybe, but...
To me, there are two kinds of "soul"
The first kind of soul is the one that defines you to yourself. Your character, strengths, passions, your self confidence & such.
Your spiritual soul does not exist within you though. Instead, it exists in the people who are close to you. It's the effect you have outwardly.
Those in my family who have passed away are still with me in this sense. I do not believe in the afterlife, but I do believe that those who are gone continue to affect the world they left behind.
For instance, when I find myself saying something or making a gesture that my father did while he was alive, it feels to me like that it his soul that he left in me when he passed.
You don't possess your own soul, but you are responsible for it just the same - by influence.
That's my take.
absolutly, we all have souls..
some good, some are bad...
I believe all of us have souls including animals that's a given seeing all of life is created beyond our comprehension. Of course one may understand the meaning of life on earth and what happens when we leave the earth in religous terms or even scientific terms. There is a very fine line between science and religion I believe this and I believe the different terms and definitions of religion and science confuses people.
We all have souls and spirits, for we are made up of energy hence the universe and the cosmos. Our souls and spirits are who we are and when our body dies, the flesh and blood turns into energy and our soul goes on to another place in the universe beyond anyone's comprehension including every scientist and every teacher at all levels. Your faith is your answer and that comes from your own experiences in life through grief, sorrow, and happiness do you experience your soul and then you know everyone has a soul and we do go on.
These are my own personal beliefs and experiences, so there is no right or wrong here whatsoever, it is what you have faith and belief in that matters, and without being spriritual and feeling your own soul with in and others would make being alive on earth meaningless for our time here is short, but
the soul does go on beyond any one's comprehension however, in regard to space and time....
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