"there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
weeping are those who knew God and turned away. They weep because God reveals the loss that they have chosen.
gnashing are those who knew God not. They gnash their teeth becuase they hate God. They hated Him in life because they blame him for thier deeds. They hate Him because he requires a change in life. They hate Him because they are so 'smart'.
This is the fate of all who choose it.
Just as a point of order, is it OK to gnash a denture or should it be removed first, to gnash the gums instead? If we get one chance at this it would be a shame to get it wrong. Think of the photographs...
I thought this mode of thinking was totally outdated. I mean, come on, really. Do you really believe in this primitive view of what God is? This is mindless ranting about nothing!
Your religion is nothing more than a form of mind control. I know, because I use to be saved, but I "turned away from" God. In the past I stated those same ridiculous rants as you are doing now.
But now I'm ashamed that I was that delusional.
God is still calling to His people. He takes the saved from every nation, every tribe, of every language- but the trail is narrow and the gate more so.
Who can be so foolish to hate something that doesn't exist ?
the last 200 years have produced greatly falsified belly rubs about how to be saved.
You don't get 7 years to get it right "again".
So, kick "left behind" series out the window.
Babylon was never reconstructed. Pure brimstone can be found there still.
Praise the god who's will is weaker than man's will. Praise the god who offers freewill, and then punishes those who make the wrong decision.
Praise the religion that says, "It's still up to mankind to save themselves."
Sanctus, you sound like a meliorist. Ever read much Thomas Hardy?
In my opinion, if a god can create such a fallible race as human beings, then god (if you believe in god) must also be fallible.
yes, write down all the logical things that you are going to say to Him. Then He will gently let you on your way after He shows you what you failed to learn. Gnashing all the way.
OMG! I just said Fire and Brimstone to someone else today. What a small world!
yes, I wanted to know what brimstone was hehehex
I failed miserably, I gather, but it was funny guessing.
maybe someone will pick this up and tell us?x
I hope so, I'm actually honestly ignorant about it. That's funny, but true.
As someone has already said, sulfur is the answer.
Oh. Um, thank you. I never knew that.(laughing right now)Born and raised Catholic, too!
well, I told you in another thread, just minutes ago !
suffering from Alzheimer ?
Yep, my mom was catholic, very big on the fire and brimstone.
I guess that is why I knew what brimstone is!
well tell us! Give me strength! Sorry... still keeping in mind about being kind and brave...
Please will you be kind enough to enlighten us what brimstone is. I would greatly appreciate it x
Here ya go then Shaz.
Fire and brimstone as biblical references are seen as god's wrath, and the volcanics would have been poorly understood at the time.
brimstone (non scientific) or sulfer, is a chemical element with the atomic number 16.
Sulfur is bright yellow in color.
It is also an essential life element.
well.. come on .. spill the beans on the brimstone thing.. educate us X
*seeking out the great guru sulfur* where is he/she/it? *looking under the table cloth, the chair - no sulfur!* boo hoo!
I feel you did a wonderful job of describing the horror of denying our maker, the moment that faith yields to full knowledge of our God, I hope that even one is moved to repentence by your bold words.
Sooner: Why do you post on the condemnation of the unsaved with such harshness if you're trying to reach nonbelievers? That's a turn-off for anyone who doesn't know the Lord. Why not begin a post with: "Yo! Everybody, come and let me tell you the wonderful things God has done in my life since I've given my heart & life to Him! Golly, gee....Heaven will be a glorious place! Come & receive Him, He knocks at the door, just let Him come in!"
Now doesn't that sound more inviting?
But the thing is,
Has God done something really wonderful in his life ?
Or why dont we just say... how have we been kind and brave today?
yes, thank you for your question.
I wrote about fire and brimstone for a few reasons. The most graphic language in Revelation repeatedly refers to the lake of fire, hell and finally punishment of the unsaved. Jesus mentioned the lake of fire 15 times. Obviously, it was very important that we understood the topic.
The most common questions about hell are also the reasons that many turn their back on Jesus and begin to hate Him. "if Cod is like that, I hate Him" there are similar comments in this thread already.
To understand hell, one must also understand heaven and why God cannot allow sin inside of its gates again. Otherwise the process would start over.
1. Are the wicked punished forever regardless of the degree/or number of their sin?
2. Does a sinner who died thousands of years ago suffer those additional years in hell?
3. Would you follow a god who punishes the sinner in hell for eternity?
4. Can hell be tolerable?
5. Does God give the sinner a second chance?
My following posts will depict what I believe hell is, with biblical backing.
Agreed. We do not need to be afraid of life, there is no god.
To whatever! Nice! I believe the term is, um, uh, oh I don't know......
dont say it.... Lets just live the principals eh? x
That's okay, I know where my fireproof handbasket is.
is it big enough for two? 2012 is just around the corner you know! It is all happening in Glastonbury! x
Well if ground zero is 500 foot above sea level.. yes ground zero. But then if you are at the base of the tor it might be something different..... x
There's room for plenty in the handbasket; I'm generous
arrrh kewl.. we can snuggle up in the fire! lmao
No we dont have to be afraid, faith is the condition where we no longer have fear at all
Speaking of brimstone;
Brimstone, from the Greek word "theion" which means; "divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease."
This translation is used whenever the book of Revelation talks about a certain group of people being cast into the Lake of Fire.
Yet, Christians will cry foul at this.
I have bathed in the health baths at Rotarua in New Zealand, the smell of the sulfur is terrible, but I sure felt good afterwards!
I've heard about those types of baths. Not sure if I'd ever travel abroad to take one.
pure sulfer is white and has a less pungent smell than the sulfer produced by volcanic activity. Volcano's nor any volcanic activity can produce pure sulfer as found where Sodom and gomorrah once stood. It is also found no other place on earth. Finally- the region it is found has no evidence of vocanic activity. All news that scientists are stumped by, but won't consider biblical or dead sea scroll writings of what happened.
Well, if true, then this is most exciting. I will await a scientific explanation!
On reflection, it may be more enlightening to investigate why the ancient Israelites had these myths.
Maybe it came from a meteor strike like Tunguska. Even if it exploded in the atmosphere the blast would have leveled any towns below and distributed the composite elements of the asteroid across the area. I saw a special on Discovery once about the unusually high concentration of sulfur in the region and its combustibility. However a good point is while some is found on the surface, most is buried in the soil.
There is a similar phenomenon in the desert of western Egypt, it's volcanic rock though hundreds of miles away from the nearest volcano, extinct or active. The most likely culprit is a meteor strike there are few things capable of heating sand to glass in such a manner. Interesting stuff. We know that several observed atmospheric phenomenon discussed in the bible match known astronomic occurrences and events. Who knows what happened. These cities were destroyed along with others in the region by something cataclysmic and overwhelming.
Why do I have a feeling that the gist of your answers will be, "The unsaved will be tormented in a fiery dungeon for all eternity, because they made the wrong choice. These people chose to go to the Lake of fire, and god is a very just god."
no, it will not. but there will probably be some scriptural quotes that many will not like(A) or ridicule(B).
But I am goint to write it anyhow.
This would work, except no man has ever ascended to Heaven at death. (Save for Jesus Christ, God the son.)
It's wonderful to see that Satan's first lie has bound mainstream Christianity together so will.
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."
the important point that is expressed time and time again in the scriptures is;
"burn them UP" the word "up" exposes the answer. Yes, there is hell, yes people will burn. But not eternally.
So, the question - what kind of god would have his creation burned for eternity? is ansered. He doesn't. when God talks about death, this is the death He talks about. the utter end. "I rejoyce not in the death of the wicked".
More scripture coming to prove my point. also, the scripture that confused the masses.
So out pops the fundie again folks, which will bring other fundies with a different view, and around they will go chasing a myth! Hilarious! Exclusive and hilarious!
This thread is sort of scary, I mean do people really take the time to talk about fire and brimstone? Yikes, no wonder this forum has gone bonkers.
It is always nice to see you too . Have fun trying to rationalize with the brimstone fetish people .
Sad, but true, and there are three views used by Christians, and mainstream Christians.
1. The Lake of Fire is an eternal torture chamber.
2. The Lake of Fire will completely destroy/annihilate the wicked.
3. The Lake of Fire will be used to purify the wicked, and turn them into new creations.
The lake of fire may be used to purify the saved, but not the wicked. There is much scripture about being "forged by fire" but never once does it say the wicked are forged, but instead "burned up". Also God mournes the losses. "no sin will enter the gates of heaven"; may suggest that sins of the saved are burned off. And agian, "to give every man according as his work shall be."
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Matthew 10:28 Jesus speaking.
the word "destroy". if a structure is destroyed, does it burn for eternity? No.
You do realize that the destroyer in this case is Satan, right?
"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
those entering hell, are alive.
If those wicked burned for eternity, we should be able to find them? But because they are burnt up, there is no place to find them. Even those who enter heaven will ponder at first the place of "eternal torment" but it does not exist.
"For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."
here, some look for hell and maybe those who entered. but there is nothing to be found because those are burned "up" as stated before.
Or it could be that the wicked have had their dross and filth burned away, and have now become clean, pure, and new creations.
What's the point of purifying brimstone in the LoF if it's not going to purify?
to "burn up" the wicked. As stated- again..... and again.
Brimstone (concordance #2303); from the Greek word theion which is defined as:
a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease
is used in the following verses;
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Add that along with the Bible saying that "God will be all in all" and "God will do all his pleasure" and "God does not desire that anyone should perish, but come to repentance" and "God will reconcile ALL to Himself"
This is all very, very, silly. If a religion encourages us to go out and help others, then it should be promoted vigorously. If not, if it focuses on silliness like this, it should be ditched. And this goes for Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, any of them.
"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."
this does not need added to.
The brimstone is not being purified. that is what is in the lake of fire to destroy the wicked.
the Lord God.
"How can I give you up?" Hosea 11:8
"What more could I have done than I did do to save them?" Isaiah 5:4
I am confused here. Billions of people out there in the world have no food to feed their children, no clean water, no health facilities, sometimes no roof or shoes, and no hope.
If we assume the Gospel writers portrayed Jesus as he really was (and this seems likely to me, frankly), then Jesus spent an awful lot of time comforting the poor, the needy, the sick, and down in the poverty-stricken areas of his region. Indeed, his energy seems to have been focused on showing an example to others as to how to live.
Christians, i.e., people who believe Jesus was a light, an example to follow, a guide, should be doing the same. There is simply too much misery to ignore, in our modern world.
Focus on this, rather than this business of hell, and so on. If it exists, fine, but remember Jesus said -- I was hungry and you did not feed me... so YOU be warned!
I agree with that message as well. perhaps you should start a thread about it. But this was a message of Jesus as well.
Glad we are in sync ;-) . It does worry me, however, that so many non-Christians get turned off by these sorts of things though. It seems clear to me that Christianity can be a great force for good; many, many missions to the poor have been started by Christian groups. It can be an edifying force in a person's life, I am sure of it; but if people get gummed up discussing brimstone, revelations, and so on, I worry...
I understand your concern. I have been here maybe three months and never seen "fire and brimstone" preached. not one time. though I have seen many accuse me that it has, but it is like the moth to a flame. look who is here.
again, thank you. I was prompted to discuss these issues when I read some hideous comments about abortion. If people can make those comments without guilt- then quickly turn and post how "unfair" God is; I feel this is a light subject.
would you agree?
BTW, that's good advice: I am going to start a thread about it. Look out for it in the next few seconds... (not being sarcastic, incidentally, I'm really going to do it. :-) )
1 Corinthians 3:13-15
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
EVERY MAN'S work shall be made manifest and tested; the wicked will have their works burned up, but they will be saved by the fire.
I agree. But do you believe that ALL are entitled to heaven?
Nobody goes to Heaven. When we die, we die. The only hope is the resurrection.
God will move his kingdom down to Earth from Heaven after the millennial reign of Christ.
Pulling your leg, as we English say... I meant simply that you have to give us a source; otherwise, should we simply believe you? We've never even seen you. You are just a little square picture on the side of the post, for us :-)
And the Bible doesn't work as a source, because if we believed the Bible in the first place, then we wouldn't be arguing with you at all... So you need a bibliographical source that is not the Bible, or a logical argument we can follow, and decide if it makes sense or not.
For example, here is a logical argument:
A)Christians believe God is Love. He loves us a huge amount.
B)I'm a regular guy; so I love some people, and try to be decent to most other people.
C)Christians say God is more loving than any human being
D)When someone has offended God (or inherited sin from their ancestor Adam), they are destined for hell unless they repent and accept Jesus
E) When someone offends me, I'm pretty pissed off; I may even wish to see them burn up to a cinder... but NOT FOR ETERNITY, that is simply too long! Same goes for eternal darkness; it's just too cruel
F) I am therefore more compassionate than God.
Clearly (F) is ridiculous however.
You're not a Christ follower are you?
I am trying to devote my life to uplifting the poor. This is difficult, because ultimately I am a rich Westerner, perhaps more interested in girls, and hanging out with my friends, than I am with this cause: but I am trying to steer myself in this direction.
I know the gospels well, because many years ago I was an evangelical Christian. Most of the gospels (except the Easter story, perhaps), are filled with stories of Jesus helping prostitutes, tax collectors, and so on. And of course also the lame and the sick. This is admirable. This is more than admirable. This IS WHAT JESUS WAS.
But Gandhi too, Mother Theresa, and many others also set this example. The difference is that Jesus' influence is potentially gigantic.
So, am I a Christ follower? I believe that accepting the Easter message can bring about spiritual (and psychological) transformation. That we can be resurrected from a less-than-excellent past, that it involves spiritual regeneration (if I can put it that way), this, I believe, is right.
But if you are asking me whether I believe in much of the Christian doctrine, I don't, to be honest.
Good thing I'm not religious though. That's why I believe in the horrible horrible concept of God saving everyone.
Jesus spent a lot of time comforting the poor in spirit, and those who needed to be freed from the chains of religion.
Exactly. For me, this is something no-one can argue with as a noble mission. If Christians put this forward as model for living, as a religion, and kept quiet about the rest, I think we'd all be a lot happier... especially the poor! I invite you to help spread THIS part of Jesus' message; from the perspective of those suffering under abhorrent conditions of poverty, this is the most important part of Christianity in any case.
I have said what I want to say. If there are those who want more scriptural backing about the wicked being burned "up", please ask- and I will suply more. I am afraid this thread will soon be taken over by nay sayers and those imposing their non scriptural agenda.
good bye, sooner than later.
The doctrine of everyone being reconciled to God is not unscriptural. However, so many Christians actually desire for their enemies to be tormented and destroyed, and that's why they hate this doctrine.
I've posted at least one piece of evidence that was happily ignore.
I should write a translation of the Bible called the "Some translation Bible"! I will replace the word ALL with the word SOME. I will sell it to people, and they will buy it.
I will make millions!
And I don't believe in a lot of the mainstream Christian doctrines either.
Christians believe that we have an immortal soul that will either go to heaven or hell at death.
I believe that we are a soul, and a mortal soul at that. When we die, we die.
I believe that there are two ressurections. First the saints, and possibly the mainstream Christians. Then the rest of the world.
Christians believe that the lost will be tormented for eternity.
I Believe that ALL will be saved, but not all in this age.
Christians believe that we have free-will, and that man's freewill is powerful enough to usurp God's will.
I believe that we do not have freewill, and I believe that God's will is more powerful than man's.
Christians believe that Satan was once a beautiful angel named Lucifer, or was the king of Tyre.
I believe that Satan was created as the crooked serpent from the beginning. Crooked meaning fugitive, and strangely enough, serpent can mean 'enchanter/magician'
Christians believe in the Holy Trinity.
I do not believe in the Trinity, and believe it to be a pagan concept.
I could go on.
And I believe none of this matters: what matters is that four billion of our brethren struggle to live on ten dollars a day or less, and one billion of these on less than a single dollar.
If Judgement Day comes, and we have sat around debating these sorts of things while these people suffer without help, then I think we need to be very, very concerned. If there is no Judgement Day, then we should simply be so ashamed for having our own heads up our own backsides while such colossal misery out there exists while we did nothing about it. God help us, literally!
is this new age? looks like it to me.
Sooner, Are you aware that the bible has been through the mangle, Being retranslated by people who were seeking to take advantage of it, and twist it around to suit their conquests?
Howabout things that people don't accept even today, Like jesus' being and promotion of Vegetarianism.
I believe he was most likely A Bramhana
I don't want to go around and around now. I have said my piece. thank you, good night.
Actualy, I think the circular reasoning is being [i]broken[i]
And just to throw a wrench in the works and back up my last post-
ekadaa tu shakadhisho
hunadeshasya madhye vai
giristhan purusam shubhano
dadarsha balaram raajaa
Red TextOnce upon a time the subduer of the Sakas went towards Himatunga and in the middle of the Huna country (Hunadesh - the area near Manasa Sarovara or Kailash mountain in Western Tibet), the powerful king saw an auspicious man who was living on a mountain. The man's complexion was golden and his clothes were white. (Bhavishya Purana 19:22.) Red Text
ko bharam iti tam praaha
su hovacha mudanvitah
iishaa purtagm maam viddhi
"The king asked, 'Who are you sir?' 'You should know that I am Isha Putra, the Son of God'. he replied blissfully, and 'am born of a virgin.' "(Bhavishya Purana 19:23.) Red Text
mleccha dharmasya vaktaram
iti srutva nrpa praaha
dharmah ko bhavato matah
" 'I am the expounder of the religion of the Mlecchas and I strictly adhere to the Absolute Truth.' Hearing this the king enquired, 'What are religious principles according to you opinion?' "(Bhavishya Purana 19:24.)
shruto vaaca maharaja
prapte satyasya amkshaye
mahiso 'ham samaagatah
"Hearing this questions of Salivahara, Isha putra said, 'O king, when the destruction of the truth occurred, I, Masiha the prophet, came to this country of degraded people where there are no rules and regulations. Finding that fearful irreligious condition of the barbarians spreading from Mleccha-Desha, I have taken to prophethood'." (Bhavishya Purana 19:25-26.)
mlecchasa sthaapito dharmo
mayaa tacchrnu bhuupate
maanasam nirmalam krtva
malam dehe subhaasbham
japeta nirmalam param
manasyai kena manavah
acaloyam prabhuh sakshat-
athaa suuryacalah sada
"Please hear Oh king which religious principles I have established among the mlecchas. The living entity is subject to good and bad contaminations. The mind should be purified by taking recourse of proper conduct and performance of japa. By chanting the holy names one attains the highest purity. Just as the immovable sun attracts, from all directions, the elements of all living beings, the Lord of the solar region, who is fixed and all-attractive, attracts the hearts of all living creatures. Thus by following rules, speaking truthful words, by mental harmony and by meditation, Oh descendant of Manu, one should worship that immovable Lord'." (Bhavishya Purana 19:27-30.) Red Text
isha muurtirt-dradi praptaa
ishamasihah iti ca
mama nama pratishthitam
"Having placed the eternally pure and auspicious form of the Supreme Lord in my heart, O protector of the earth planet, I preached these principles through the Mlecchas' own faith and thus my name became 'isha-masiha' (Jesus the Messiah)." (Bhavishya Purana 19:31.) Red Text
iti shrutra sa bhuupale
natraa tam mlecchapujaam
sthaapayaamaasa tam tutra
mlecchasthaane hi daarune
"After hearing these words and paying obeisances to that person who is worshipped by the wicked, the king humbly requested him to stay there in the dreadful land of Mlecchas." (Bhavishya Purana 19:32.) Red Text
svaraajyam praaptavaan raajaa
rajyam krtva sa sasthyabdam
svarga lokamu paayayau
"King Salivahara, after leaving his kingdom performed an asvamedha yajna and after ruling for sixty years, went to heaven. Now please hear what happened when the king went to svargaloka." (Bhavishya Purana 19:33.) Red Text
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