weeping are those who knew God and turned away. They weep because God reveals the loss that they have chosen.
gnashing are those who knew God not. They gnash their teeth becuase they hate God. They hated Him in life because they blame him for thier deeds. They hate Him because he requires a change in life. They hate Him because they are so 'smart'.
Just as a point of order, is it OK to gnash a denture or should it be removed first, to gnash the gums instead? If we get one chance at this it would be a shame to get it wrong. Think of the photographs...
Here ya go then Shaz. Fire and brimstone as biblical references are seen as god's wrath, and the volcanics would have been poorly understood at the time. brimstone (non scientific) or sulfer, is a chemical element with the atomic number 16. Sulfur is bright yellow in color. It is also an essential life element.
Sooner: Why do you post on the condemnation of the unsaved with such harshness if you're trying to reach nonbelievers? That's a turn-off for anyone who doesn't know the Lord. Why not begin a post with: "Yo! Everybody, come and let me tell you the wonderful things God has done in my life since I've given my heart & life to Him! Golly, gee....Heaven will be a glorious place! Come & receive Him, He knocks at the door, just let Him come in!"
I wrote about fire and brimstone for a few reasons. The most graphic language in Revelation repeatedly refers to the lake of fire, hell and finally punishment of the unsaved. Jesus mentioned the lake of fire 15 times. Obviously, it was very important that we understood the topic.
The most common questions about hell are also the reasons that many turn their back on Jesus and begin to hate Him. "if Cod is like that, I hate Him" there are similar comments in this thread already.
To understand hell, one must also understand heaven and why God cannot allow sin inside of its gates again. Otherwise the process would start over.
Questions; 1. Are the wicked punished forever regardless of the degree/or number of their sin? 2. Does a sinner who died thousands of years ago suffer those additional years in hell? 3. Would you follow a god who punishes the sinner in hell for eternity? 4. Can hell be tolerable? 5. Does God give the sinner a second chance?
My following posts will depict what I believe hell is, with biblical backing.
pure sulfer is white and has a less pungent smell than the sulfer produced by volcanic activity. Volcano's nor any volcanic activity can produce pure sulfer as found where Sodom and gomorrah once stood. It is also found no other place on earth. Finally- the region it is found has no evidence of vocanic activity. All news that scientists are stumped by, but won't consider biblical or dead sea scroll writings of what happened.
Maybe it came from a meteor strike like Tunguska. Even if it exploded in the atmosphere the blast would have leveled any towns below and distributed the composite elements of the asteroid across the area. I saw a special on Discovery once about the unusually high concentration of sulfur in the region and its combustibility. However a good point is while some is found on the surface, most is buried in the soil.
There is a similar phenomenon in the desert of western Egypt, it's volcanic rock though hundreds of miles away from the nearest volcano, extinct or active. The most likely culprit is a meteor strike there are few things capable of heating sand to glass in such a manner. Interesting stuff. We know that several observed atmospheric phenomenon discussed in the bible match known astronomic occurrences and events. Who knows what happened. These cities were destroyed along with others in the region by something cataclysmic and overwhelming.
Why do I have a feeling that the gist of your answers will be, "The unsaved will be tormented in a fiery dungeon for all eternity, because they made the wrong choice. These people chose to go to the Lake of fire, and god is a very just god."
"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."
the important point that is expressed time and time again in the scriptures is;
"burn them UP" the word "up" exposes the answer. Yes, there is hell, yes people will burn. But not eternally.
So, the question - what kind of god would have his creation burned for eternity? is ansered. He doesn't. when God talks about death, this is the death He talks about. the utter end. "I rejoyce not in the death of the wicked".
More scripture coming to prove my point. also, the scripture that confused the masses.
Sad, but true, and there are three views used by Christians, and mainstream Christians.
1. The Lake of Fire is an eternal torture chamber. 2. The Lake of Fire will completely destroy/annihilate the wicked. 3. The Lake of Fire will be used to purify the wicked, and turn them into new creations.
The lake of fire may be used to purify the saved, but not the wicked. There is much scripture about being "forged by fire" but never once does it say the wicked are forged, but instead "burned up". Also God mournes the losses. "no sin will enter the gates of heaven"; may suggest that sins of the saved are burned off. And agian, "to give every man according as his work shall be."
"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
If those wicked burned for eternity, we should be able to find them? But because they are burnt up, there is no place to find them. Even those who enter heaven will ponder at first the place of "eternal torment" but it does not exist.
"For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."
here, some look for hell and maybe those who entered. but there is nothing to be found because those are burned "up" as stated before.
Brimstone (concordance #2303); from the Greek word theion which is defined as:
a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease
is used in the following verses;
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Add that along with the Bible saying that "God will be all in all" and "God will do all his pleasure" and "God does not desire that anyone should perish, but come to repentance" and "God will reconcile ALL to Himself"
This is all very, very, silly. If a religion encourages us to go out and help others, then it should be promoted vigorously. If not, if it focuses on silliness like this, it should be ditched. And this goes for Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, any of them.
I am confused here. Billions of people out there in the world have no food to feed their children, no clean water, no health facilities, sometimes no roof or shoes, and no hope.
If we assume the Gospel writers portrayed Jesus as he really was (and this seems likely to me, frankly), then Jesus spent an awful lot of time comforting the poor, the needy, the sick, and down in the poverty-stricken areas of his region. Indeed, his energy seems to have been focused on showing an example to others as to how to live.
Christians, i.e., people who believe Jesus was a light, an example to follow, a guide, should be doing the same. There is simply too much misery to ignore, in our modern world.
Focus on this, rather than this business of hell, and so on. If it exists, fine, but remember Jesus said -- I was hungry and you did not feed me... so YOU be warned!
Glad we are in sync ;-) . It does worry me, however, that so many non-Christians get turned off by these sorts of things though. It seems clear to me that Christianity can be a great force for good; many, many missions to the poor have been started by Christian groups. It can be an edifying force in a person's life, I am sure of it; but if people get gummed up discussing brimstone, revelations, and so on, I worry...
I understand your concern. I have been here maybe three months and never seen "fire and brimstone" preached. not one time. though I have seen many accuse me that it has, but it is like the moth to a flame. look who is here.
again, thank you. I was prompted to discuss these issues when I read some hideous comments about abortion. If people can make those comments without guilt- then quickly turn and post how "unfair" God is; I feel this is a light subject.
Pulling your leg, as we English say... I meant simply that you have to give us a source; otherwise, should we simply believe you? We've never even seen you. You are just a little square picture on the side of the post, for us :-)
And the Bible doesn't work as a source, because if we believed the Bible in the first place, then we wouldn't be arguing with you at all... So you need a bibliographical source that is not the Bible, or a logical argument we can follow, and decide if it makes sense or not.
For example, here is a logical argument:
A)Christians believe God is Love. He loves us a huge amount. B)I'm a regular guy; so I love some people, and try to be decent to most other people. C)Christians say God is more loving than any human being D)When someone has offended God (or inherited sin from their ancestor Adam), they are destined for hell unless they repent and accept Jesus E) When someone offends me, I'm pretty pissed off; I may even wish to see them burn up to a cinder... but NOT FOR ETERNITY, that is simply too long! Same goes for eternal darkness; it's just too cruel F) I am therefore more compassionate than God. Clearly (F) is ridiculous however.
I am trying to devote my life to uplifting the poor. This is difficult, because ultimately I am a rich Westerner, perhaps more interested in girls, and hanging out with my friends, than I am with this cause: but I am trying to steer myself in this direction.
I know the gospels well, because many years ago I was an evangelical Christian. Most of the gospels (except the Easter story, perhaps), are filled with stories of Jesus helping prostitutes, tax collectors, and so on. And of course also the lame and the sick. This is admirable. This is more than admirable. This IS WHAT JESUS WAS.
But Gandhi too, Mother Theresa, and many others also set this example. The difference is that Jesus' influence is potentially gigantic. So, am I a Christ follower? I believe that accepting the Easter message can bring about spiritual (and psychological) transformation. That we can be resurrected from a less-than-excellent past, that it involves spiritual regeneration (if I can put it that way), this, I believe, is right. But if you are asking me whether I believe in much of the Christian doctrine, I don't, to be honest.
Exactly. For me, this is something no-one can argue with as a noble mission. If Christians put this forward as model for living, as a religion, and kept quiet about the rest, I think we'd all be a lot happier... especially the poor! I invite you to help spread THIS part of Jesus' message; from the perspective of those suffering under abhorrent conditions of poverty, this is the most important part of Christianity in any case.
I have said what I want to say. If there are those who want more scriptural backing about the wicked being burned "up", please ask- and I will suply more. I am afraid this thread will soon be taken over by nay sayers and those imposing their non scriptural agenda.
The doctrine of everyone being reconciled to God is not unscriptural. However, so many Christians actually desire for their enemies to be tormented and destroyed, and that's why they hate this doctrine.
I've posted at least one piece of evidence that was happily ignore.
I should write a translation of the Bible called the "Some translation Bible"! I will replace the word ALL with the word SOME. I will sell it to people, and they will buy it.
And I believe none of this matters: what matters is that four billion of our brethren struggle to live on ten dollars a day or less, and one billion of these on less than a single dollar.
If Judgement Day comes, and we have sat around debating these sorts of things while these people suffer without help, then I think we need to be very, very concerned. If there is no Judgement Day, then we should simply be so ashamed for having our own heads up our own backsides while such colossal misery out there exists while we did nothing about it. God help us, literally!
Actualy, I think the circular reasoning is being [i]broken[i]
And just to throw a wrench in the works and back up my last post-
ekadaa tu shakadhisho himatungari samaayayau hunadeshasya madhye vai giristhan purusam shubhano dadarsha balaram raajaa
Red TextOnce upon a time the subduer of the Sakas went towards Himatunga and in the middle of the Huna country (Hunadesh - the area near Manasa Sarovara or Kailash mountain in Western Tibet), the powerful king saw an auspicious man who was living on a mountain. The man's complexion was golden and his clothes were white. (Bhavishya Purana 19:22.) Red Text
ko bharam iti tam praaha su hovacha mudanvitah iishaa purtagm maam viddhi kumaarigarbha sambhavam Red Text "The king asked, 'Who are you sir?' 'You should know that I am Isha Putra, the Son of God'. he replied blissfully, and 'am born of a virgin.' "(Bhavishya Purana 19:23.) Red Text
mleccha dharmasya vaktaram satyavata paraayanam iti srutva nrpa praaha dharmah ko bhavato matah Red Text
" 'I am the expounder of the religion of the Mlecchas and I strictly adhere to the Absolute Truth.' Hearing this the king enquired, 'What are religious principles according to you opinion?' "(Bhavishya Purana 19:24.) Red Text
Red Text "Hearing this questions of Salivahara, Isha putra said, 'O king, when the destruction of the truth occurred, I, Masiha the prophet, came to this country of degraded people where there are no rules and regulations. Finding that fearful irreligious condition of the barbarians spreading from Mleccha-Desha, I have taken to prophethood'." (Bhavishya Purana 19:25-26.) Red Text
dhyayena pujayedisham suurya-mandala-samsthitam acaloyam prabhuh sakshat- athaa suuryacalah sada
"Please hear Oh king which religious principles I have established among the mlecchas. The living entity is subject to good and bad contaminations. The mind should be purified by taking recourse of proper conduct and performance of japa. By chanting the holy names one attains the highest purity. Just as the immovable sun attracts, from all directions, the elements of all living beings, the Lord of the solar region, who is fixed and all-attractive, attracts the hearts of all living creatures. Thus by following rules, speaking truthful words, by mental harmony and by meditation, Oh descendant of Manu, one should worship that immovable Lord'." (Bhavishya Purana 19:27-30.) Red Text
isha muurtirt-dradi praptaa nityashuddha sivamkari ishamasihah iti ca mama nama pratishthitam
Red Text "Having placed the eternally pure and auspicious form of the Supreme Lord in my heart, O protector of the earth planet, I preached these principles through the Mlecchas' own faith and thus my name became 'isha-masiha' (Jesus the Messiah)." (Bhavishya Purana 19:31.) Red Text
iti shrutra sa bhuupale natraa tam mlecchapujaam sthaapayaamaasa tam tutra mlecchasthaane hi daarune
Red Text "After hearing these words and paying obeisances to that person who is worshipped by the wicked, the king humbly requested him to stay there in the dreadful land of Mlecchas." (Bhavishya Purana 19:32.) Red Text
Red Text "King Salivahara, after leaving his kingdom performed an asvamedha yajna and after ruling for sixty years, went to heaven. Now please hear what happened when the king went to svargaloka." (Bhavishya Purana 19:33.) Red Text
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