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jump to last post 1-9 of 9 discussions (136 posts)

What does Scripture say about Salvation for a baby that dies??

  1. celafoe profile image61
    celafoeposted 3 years ago

    What does Scripture say about Salvation for a baby that dies??

    I want a scriptural answer, I do not care what I think, you think, your church thinks, or any opinions at all.  What God says is what I am looking for.     If you post without at least 2  new testament scriptures IN CONTEXT (scriptual witness) It will be immediately deleted.    I will not allow discussion of this sensitive subject to be led astray.

  2. PhoenixV profile image67
    PhoenixVposted 3 years ago

    I think is almost a given that babies are saved. I think it is adults that are in question about salvation.



    Matthew 18:2-3King James Version (KJV)

    2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

    3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Mark 10:15
    Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

    1. Ericdierker profile image57
      Ericdierkerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.  Not on point?
      Hmm - I think you mean "not what I wanted"

    2. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      eric-  totally not.    It is talking about the ability to receive as a child and and This has NOTHING to do with salvation of a child, but the attitude of those being converted  should have a simple child like ability to receive.

    3. Ericdierker profile image57
      Ericdierkerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Charlie I like that narrowing of notions. I think it is helpful and will lead us further into inquiry. Great question! You know my perspective, but let us find scripture.

    4. PhoenixV profile image67
      PhoenixVposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Mark 10:14
      Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

    5. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      eric- good scriptures but not applicable.  And also we cant use OT to learn the NT truth.  I want the word of God on this subject....to either prove what I  see or prove me wrong  i dont care which..   pheonix-- not applicable here

    6. PhoenixV profile image67
      PhoenixVposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      No ambiguity here: Let the little children come to me, and DO NOT hinder them, for the kingdom of God BELONGS  to such as these.  Do we hinder them with a doctrine of original sin? Commentary that does not apply to them? What a church says?

    7. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      pheonix-- correct translation  "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.  15 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it."

    8. PhoenixV profile image67
      PhoenixVposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Always put the children first. Especially in Mark 10: 13-14. What does your conscience say? Just an opportunity for an object lesson?  Jesus was rather indignant. Always put the children first.

    9. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      phoen- sorry but it takes two scriptures in correct context and approval from the Holy Spirit to accept anything as scriptural.   my conscience(heart) as is that of all mankind, deceitful above all things.   plse scripture for always put the chid 1st

    10. Rich kelley profile image61
      Rich kelleyposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      There are mill stones for the necks of those that lead children astray. Show them how to sin and they will, the flesh will like it and kill the child like spirit needed to follow after Him.

    11. PhoenixV profile image67
      PhoenixVposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Did you ask me to provide scripture on whether we should put children first?

    12. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      phoenix--- yes

    13. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Charlie:  "phoen- sorry but it takes two scriptures in correct context and approval from the Holy Spirit to accept anything as scriptural. "  Deut 19:15 Matt18:16, II Cor 13:1! Amen Charlie! Where is Witn Script for Matt 28:19? They are blind! Gal3

    14. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      noreen-  u use lots of scripture.   your churchianity  is blocking U from being able to see many truths that the HS would show u.   You will not convince those that hear the HS clearly with your inappropriate use of scripture-- just church folks

    15. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Explain Charlie!  Trying to "learn!"  Not what "religion" has taught you, but what the Word of God says!

    16. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      noreen-- good, then dont answer anything until U have studied it , casting aside what U think U know and asking the Holy Spirit to show you truth.   read my hub How to study scripture to find truth

    17. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Charlie "Your Hub" is "your interpretation" of the Word!  I receive mine "only" from the Holy Spirit!  Gal 4:16?  He has!  I Cor 3:6!  It is up to you to be as the Bereans in Acts 17:11 & Study II Tim 2:15!  "...man rather than God..?" Acts 4:19

    18. Ericdierker profile image57
      Ericdierkerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      There will always be the problem of one telling us what to believe as opposed to us learning it ourselves. Still we look for some guidance and challenges to our own views. I must be ready to learn from others but not a deviance to what I believe.

    19. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Eric that why II Tim 2:15.  Acts 8:31 "some MAN..."  Then it's up to us to be as Acts 17:11!  I Cor 3:6!

  3. Rich kelley profile image61
    Rich kelleyposted 3 years ago

    What does scripture say about salvation of a baby that dies?

    I found no scripture Old Testament or New Testament that specifically addresses the salvation of babies. I also did not find scripture that says they go to eternal damnation.

    With that said "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool. (Isaiah 1:18)

    Revelation 20:12  And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

    The only thing that should be written in the book of life for a dead infant is the fact that they were born. They have done nothing to be removed from the book of life.

    John 3:36  Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

    The rejection is the cause of no after life an infant will be hard to reject something it knew nothing of.  There is a reason the Gospel is to be preached, so that people will know and can be accountable for Belief and eternal life or rejection and no life with God’s wrath on them.

    The term age of accountability should actually be the conditions of accountability. It might be 7 years old or 53, once the conditions have presented themselves and you are to make an informed decision, choose life.


    Deuteronomy 1:39  'Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

    This scripture speaks of the promised land and who will enter it. If a child has no knowledge of good and evil they shall go in, this strengthens what I believe happens to babies even though there is no direct scripture quote.

    1. Ericdierker profile image57
      Ericdierkerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      I found this scenario and scripture helpful as David seems to say the baby goes to the Kingdom before him 2 Samuel 12:23 And then I look at the blind dude Mark 10 46-48. Son of David is a title that is accepted.

    2. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Rich-- I believe I have some scriptures for this but I am looking and praying someone has the mind of the Lord in the matter as it is very important.    So you dont believe we are born in sin?  also OT scripture is not appropriate we need NT.  ???

    3. Rich kelley profile image61
      Rich kelleyposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      I think we are born into a sinful world and by nature follow the examples before us. all the children quotes people are using show us the nature we are to have to enter the kingdom. Born in sin yes born a sinner no. becoming of the world makes us sin

    4. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Rich-- glad you replied.   I still dont think I have the mind of the Lord on the original sin thing and I want it.    Yes the scrip describe the attitude/ demeanor needed to receive  the act of grace that gives us entry into the kingdom

    5. Rich kelley profile image61
      Rich kelleyposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      My mind is being renewed daily I also desire to come to full knowledge, I know mans original sin teachings end up an excuse, their twisting of the word to fit doctrine turns my stomach. He is a just God and will show us because we seek.

    6. PhoenixV profile image67
      PhoenixVposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      If it is not too personal to ask Charlie, what does your conscience say is the answer to your question? I know you are looking for scripture, but you said you prayed for someone that had the mind of the Lord and that could be you.

    7. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      phoenix-- when I have the mind of the Lord on a subject I KNOW IT and stop searching.    I think I do but cannot prove it and until I can I cannot teach it.    see my last comment about deceitful conscience (heart)

    8. PhoenixV profile image67
      PhoenixVposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      I hope you find the correct answer Charlie. Thank you for allowing my two cents.

    9. Rich kelley profile image61
      Rich kelleyposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      I have searched the KJV, NASB, NKJV and not found the often used phrases by “believers” Sinless, original sin, sinful nature, sin nature, all manmade terms to support doctrine. Like; per-trib, trinity, OSAS, rapture, pastor, bishop, born a sinner.

    10. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Rich: SinlessIICor5:21;Orig sinRm5:12;Sinful natureGal5:17,sin natureJm1:15,pastorEph4:11,bishop ITim 3:1, born a sinner Ps 51:5."Trinity" nowhere. OSAS yes. If HS in you, u will chg fm glory to glory II Cor 3:18. Not asked HS for rapture! II Pet 1

    11. Rich kelley profile image61
      Rich kelleyposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      You are making the scripture fit the doctrine you were tough by men and religion. By the way quoting more and more scripture doesn’t make you right. You have yet to quote anything in context for an answer. That is called deception.

    12. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      noreen-- still trying to bully ur way into having us believe you with inappropriate use of scripture and your denominational errors its funny tho cause the scriptures U use discredit U instead of making your case

    13. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Please explain Charlie!  Trying to "learn!"

  4. tsadjatko profile image55
    tsadjatkoposted 3 years ago

    https://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/12239576_f260.jpg

    People say that babies cannot understand sin and therefore are innocent. But that's not what the Bible says. Understanding sin is not required for being under the penalty of sin. Two passages in Psalms tell us about the true nature of children. One says, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity" (Ps. 51:5). The other reads, "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies" (Ps. 58:3). There are no exceptions. All of us are born with a sin nature; even though we have not yet done anything wrong, our nature is sinful. Every baby needs a Savior, just as every adult does.The Bible addresses a baby's need through the blood of Christ. Jesus' blood was provided for the salvation of mankind--men, women and children. Until we reject the promise of God's salvation, the benefit of His death is still available to us. Even though babies are not innocent, they have not rejected God's salvation. The blood of Jesus Christ is there for them.
    Psalm 19:1 says, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork." Intelligent minds are not without knowl-edge of God's existence, even in people groups that have never heard the Gospel explained to them. Romans 1:18-21 says that God's wrath is against those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, "because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them."

    God has revealed Himself both in external creation and in man's internal conscience. But when the heathen suppresses what they can know about God and choose to worship what they create with their own hands rather than their Creator, they are without excuse.

    But this is not true of a child. Babies do not have minds that can comprehend nature around them or a conscience within them. Babies are guilty of having a sin nature, but they have not weighed the evidence and rejected God. They have not been condemned by their own actions as the heathen have.

    It's evident that little children do not have the ability to make moral decisions and to take responsibility for their sins. Young children have not rejected the blood of Jesus as the heathen have. It is there for them, covering their sins, washing them clean, even though they have not had the ability to exercise faith in Jesus, which is required for the salvation of men and women who understand the consequences of their sin. Only rejecting the blood deters its power, and babies haven't done that.

    1. Rich kelley profile image61
      Rich kelleyposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      "They go astray as soon as they are born speaking lies".  Now think about that it takes time to lean how to speak as well as sin. They will speak like those around them and sin like them as well, but they were not born doing it. They learn quickly.

    2. tsadjatko profile image55
      tsadjatkoposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      You need to think about it.If that isn't the truth the Bible is in error.They will lie not because their parents lie,because it is their nature,they will lie before they even know what a lie is and the Bibleclearly says  we are all born under sin

    3. Rich kelley profile image61
      Rich kelleyposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      It is your assumptions that are in error not the bible. Their nature is to learn and follow. Christ wants that nature in His disciples. We are born in a sinful world. Christ was born just as we were and yet did not sin.

    4. tsadjatko profile image55
      tsadjatkoposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      I used scripture for my Ans.Where is yours? Sin nature is passed down through the father. Rom. 5:12  "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."

    5. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      tsad-- Rom 5 does not support your statement  "sin mature is passed down through the father"  do you have one that does?

    6. Rich kelley profile image61
      Rich kelleyposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Psa 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
      Until you understand the scripture you quote there is no need for me to play ping pong scripture with you. Think of the Christ child.

    7. tsadjatko profile image55
      tsadjatkoposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Jesus has2natures:Col. 2:9 "For in Him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form."His human nature from Mary,His divine nature through God/Holy Spirit.Therefore, He was sinless, had no original sin, and was both fully God and fully man.

    8. Rich kelley profile image61
      Rich kelleyposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Col 2:9-10  For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
      This is speaking of a man Jesus of 30-33 years old, now what of the infant in the womb?

    9. tsadjatko profile image55
      tsadjatkoposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      I have explained why Jesus did not sin, scriptural his father was God not man where sin nature comes from. You claim sin is learned from a child's parents. If that were true Jesus would have learned to be a sinner or else Mary&Joseph were sinless

    10. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Col 2:9-10;Eph 4:5, Phil 2:10. Matth 28:18 "ALL AUTHORITY" then where is God asleep? NO,  for HE IS "I AM!" If u could wrap your "carnal" mind around "truth" and look at Scripture "spiritually" (Jn 4:24) you would understand!

    11. tsadjatko profile image55
      tsadjatkoposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      RK assumes the opposite of scripture which clearly states everywhere,we are born with a sin nature,If sin is just a learned behavior that would mean a baby is born sinless&could remain so.Show1scripture that says we are not born w/a sin nature

    12. Rich kelley profile image61
      Rich kelleyposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Norine
      I have already looked at scripture through your “spiritual” eyes, the darkness was very deceptive. Your scriptures have nothing to do with the Christ child. You want to make the Child God, not His only begotten Son.

    13. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      noreen--being a bully will get you nowhere.    I assure you that you are not more spiritual with those of us you are trying change to your way of thinking.    Most of the scriptures u use are not applicable to the subject

    14. tsadjatko profile image55
      tsadjatkoposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Celafoe has a point Noreen, we can all be spiritual but still disagree on debatable points without accusations of carnality, so relax, apologize maybe? and maybe we all can learn something from this Q&A if we respect the inerrancy of the Bible.

    15. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Charlie:  The Word "bullies" not me! Heb4:12.I apol for getting "off topic" but  not for the Word although not 1st to ment Col 2:9!  TSAD right! All born sinful! Rich:"Thru MY spiritual eyes?"Who am I?Jn1:10says Jesus is God, not me! "IAM" is JESUS!

    16. Rich kelley profile image61
      Rich kelleyposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Again your scripture does not say what you imply.

    17. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Explain Rich.  I'm trying to learn.

    18. Rich kelley profile image61
      Rich kelleyposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      TSAD You and I are aware of good and evil, thanks to Adam and Eve. Our nature once able to choose is to please the flesh. Christ chose otherwise, His Father was well pleased. You know the rest of the story.

    19. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Rich:  Too much meat?  John 16:2

    20. Rich kelley profile image61
      Rich kelleyposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Norine
      Some day you will want to learn, and when the student is ready the teacher will arrive. Right now you want to promote your beliefs, many which I've had in the past. The oil in your lamp is smoking, you need to trim it to see through the smoke.

    21. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Rich:  The "Teacher" has arrived, the "HS!"  And I'm doing "exactly" what He's telling me to do & hope someday you will come into the realization of TRUTH, if God's Will!  II Cor 4:3  But you have to be as the Bereans in Acts 17:11!STOP LIMITING

    22. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      noreen--get back on subject or I will have to shut you down    you have gone too far astray now.   dump the self righteous attitude
      You say you want to learn and that is not true you want to teach us your false doctrines

    23. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Charlie I've tried to stay "on topic" but something/someone draws me away! I have given scripture and my ans that babes will be saved by the blood of Jesus if they die because they have not rejected Him.   "...God is not the author.." I Cor 14:33

  5. oceansnsunsets profile image89
    oceansnsunsetsposted 3 years ago

    There are multiple verses on the need for salvation due to our sins.  My main reason for thinking that babies go to heaven is they have not had the chance to sin.  It is our sin that needs to be pardoned before God, on judgement day.  Jesus is our pardon, because He took on our sins.  So there is salvation to those that confess their sins, and he is faithful and just to forgive them.  My heart tells me that if a person is separated from God in the first place due to sin, that God will welcome a little baby into his kingdom, that never had the chance to sin, not even once.  No defiance, no breaking of God's moral code, etc. 
    I John 1:9
    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

    Psalm 32:5
    "Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD." And you forgave the guilt of my sin."

    A baby cannot/has not sinned, and cannot confess the sin they never did in the first place.  God is righteous and just, and not willing that any should perish.  Adding logic, love and reason which I think all come from God, this makes an air tight case, to me.  It would be like an all knowing judge, condemning the innocent to eternal death.  This to me is contradictory. 

    2 Peter 3:9  "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

    1. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      you have provided no scriptural proof.  just supposition and personal belief, that is not what I am looking for.   Read the whole  q uestion

    2. oceansnsunsets profile image89
      oceansnsunsetsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      I provided scripture about God's desire that no one should perish, and what it takes to be saved.  There's no direct scriptures for your exact scenario.  Its hard to believe we are discussing whether innocent babies are excluded from heaven or not.

    3. Ericdierker profile image57
      Ericdierkerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Yes Paula you did and if read in the light that one should read scripture then you have made a great point with good scripture. Thank you it was very good to read.

  6. profile image69
    graceinusposted 3 years ago

    celafoe- This is question is one of the most interesting questions I have read from anyone in a long time.

    To be honest, I have never read a verse in the bible that is directly related to your question. There is no direct verses that I seen so far with regards to a "baby's salvation. However, it is stated in Titus 2:11 (NKJV)

    11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL men.

    When it states "all men" it means all mankind to inclued babies." Just because a baby may not realize that God's grace exist does not mean it's not there for a baby. And I have never read a verse which states the grace of God is removed from a baby at death because it's to young to understand.

    I'm sorry I can not provide a second supporting verse at this time. If there is one I wouldn't mind hearing it from someone else or you. Should you decide to delete my comment, I will understand.

    God bless.

    1. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Grace -- delete??  It is a valuable answer within the guideline.   I was hoping to hear from you.

    2. profile image69
      graceinusposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      celafoe- Well I'm glad the answer was helpful. And again I wish I had a second supporting verse to my answer but so far I haven't found one. And I'm always happy to hear from you too. Blessings

    3. tsadjatko profile image55
      tsadjatkoposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Graceinus,well said,that all of us are born with a sin nature. There are 19 Bible Verses about Being Born In Sin. http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Being-Born-In-Sin and not one denying it.Babies,yes,born sinners but are covered by His blood

    4. PlanksandNails profile image84
      PlanksandNailsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Why does Scripture call children a blessing if they are born damned? Also, the "supporting" verses that people us as "proof" texts is about committed sin.

    5. Rich kelley profile image61
      Rich kelleyposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Amen Aaron the blood of Christ is for committed sin.

    6. tsadjatko profile image55
      tsadjatkoposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Planks,because no scripture says children are born "damned"!being born with a sin nature is not the same thing as being damned, from the moment they are born they are not damned because of Jesus' shed blood, theyre only damnedonce theyrejectHim.

    7. PlanksandNails profile image84
      PlanksandNailsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Tsad,

      That does not give you the right to use Scripture out of context. You have failed the 2 Timothy 2:15 test.

    8. tsadjatko profile image55
      tsadjatkoposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Scripture out of context? to the contrary I have sighted over 20 scriptures (and there are more)that support what I say&directly contradict your assertions for which you have not one scripture that says we are not born with sin nature, really

    9. Rich kelley profile image61
      Rich kelleyposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      You made me smile I often fall short of  Being diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. 2Timothy 2:15

    10. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Amen TSAD!  And thank Adam & Eve for that! Rm 5:12;19 But Thank you Jesus for the "shedding of Your blood!"

    11. profile image69
      graceinusposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      As I wrote in another comment I believe it's important to read Romans 5:15-19 which is to long to print out the entire verses here. I believe it covers this issue of death and sin vs. no sin. Blessing to all.

    12. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Grace- help me to understand what you see here that I do not.   Either on here or in a message.   I am not sure how you see this

    13. profile image69
      graceinusposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      celafore- Romans 5: 15-19 is talking through one man's offence (Adam) then all men have the judgement of physical death. But because of Jesus sinless life and then death, through Him all men have a chance of eternel life. The gift of "grace thr faith

    14. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Grace:  Rm is just like ur name!  Am I right in interpreting it to say "one man (ADAM) caused us to be born with and commit sin, yet another (JESUS) fulfilled law, died for remission of our sins  and gave us "grace" which v 17 is much more?  Learning

    15. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      grace-- then we are certainly in agreement there

    16. Ericdierker profile image57
      Ericdierkerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Since this is in the context of babies that cannot chose --- it begins to smell like universalism. I do not think that is the intent but please just look at it. If babies get into heaven without choosing Christ -- who else does? It is slippery slope.

    17. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      eric- WOW awesome comment esp since I know where you have stood on this.    Yes as I have have had much contact with  over the yrs this is also a concern of mine.

    18. profile image69
      graceinusposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      norine-  Adams sin is the ONLY sin in which judgement has been passed on to every human being. It's not the sin passed on to us, but the judgement. That's what it ment by " by one man' offence, JUDGEMENT came to all men"

    19. Ericdierker profile image57
      Ericdierkerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Grace that is an awesome short interpretation -- that shall help guide me often.

    20. profile image69
      graceinusposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      celafoe- The answer I gave to norine is the same I'm giving to you to answer your question.

    21. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Amen Grace!  Judgement yes yet "passed on" is the point!  For Romans 5:12 says "...and so death "passed upon" all men..." Charlie:  Did we not say that children don't have the intellect to be an unbeliever?  Why then would u respond that way to Eric?

    22. tsadjatko profile image55
      tsadjatkoposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Graceinus Romans 5:15-19, exactly, he paid the price&so if anyone is incapable of accepting or rejecting Jesus,be they a newborn baby or a mentally impaired person with only the mental capacity of a baby they will go to heaven,Jesus paid forthem.

    23. PlanksandNails profile image84
      PlanksandNailsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      We are all born with the PENALTY and JUDGMENT of death should we commit sin, but we have the CHOICE NOT TO SIN from the day we are born, and Jesus Christ PROVED THIS by never sinning once and thus obtaining Resurrection.

    24. profile image69
      graceinusposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      PandN- I would like to know your understanding of Grace.

    25. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Amen TSAD!  P&N:  Not from the day we are born, (intellect not there), but from the day we are born again, become a "believer!" John 3:3

    26. Ericdierker profile image57
      Ericdierkerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      TSAD you give two exceptions, are there 10 or 20 more? If we exclude the child do we exclude also those filled with hate that are "incapable"? Only through Christ and not through exception? How about the drunkard/addict. Just cute babies?

    27. PlanksandNails profile image84
      PlanksandNailsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Graceinus,
      Babies and children are a gift of God based on His grace and righteous judgement, even the aborted and sacrificed ones. Ezekiel 16:20-21
      Norine, Babies do have intellect and are a gift from God, a reward from him, not damned from birth.

    28. tsadjatko profile image55
      tsadjatkoposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Eric,if you read my comments here under G's answer you'll see 19 scriptures with a link to them.Youcan't conflate people who are capable of rejecting Jesus with babies/children who are incapable of making that decision&onlyGod knows their hearts.

    29. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      P&N:  Babies don't have intellect & until they acquire it they are covered by the blood of Jesus!  If they die, they do receive salvation according to Scripture! I never said damned-you did!

    30. Ericdierker profile image57
      Ericdierkerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      PandN this is exactly what I want to believe -- exactly, with love thrown into the mix;-) But I find no NT scripture to support your statement.

    31. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      P&N & Eric: I Cor 14:20 - "...do not be children in your intellects..."

    32. PlanksandNails profile image84
      PlanksandNailsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      My statement was not based from the NT, but from from Ezekiel and Psalms.

    33. profile image69
      graceinusposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      PandN- I would like to know your understanding of grace as it's described in the book of Romans? The reason I ask is because grace has it's relationship to salvation.

    34. PlanksandNails profile image84
      PlanksandNailsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Graceinus,

      There is not enough room here to explain. I will e-mail you with my answer as your question deserves detailed explanation. Let me know if you receive it.

    35. profile image69
      graceinusposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      PandN- I have sent an e-mail to you. Blessings.

  7. PlanksandNails profile image84
    PlanksandNailsposted 3 years ago

    Original sin has its origins in false Catholic doctrine.

    We read in Scripture that there is a time in a person’s life when he or she “knows enough to refuse evil and choose good” (Isaiah 7:15-16). Evil is something one chooses, not inherits.

    Jesus promises, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 18:3). Jesus promises us that we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven if we do not become like children (1 Corinthians 14:20). Children obviously represent innocence. This verse makes no sense if children are born totally depraved. Sin separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2). If children are sinful, they are separated from God, but they are innocent. We have to become like them as innocent, teachable and trusting to enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Why else would Jesus tell us to become like children?

    Jesus told His disciples, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these” - Matthew 19:14.

    What would this verse mean if children inherit sin?

    The kingdom of heaven would belong to those separated from God. Since children are innocent, the kingdom of heaven belongs to the innocent- those who belong to God.

    Scripture teaches us that, at death, “the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7). The parents do not give the soul to a child, but God does. If God hates sin (Psalm 45:7) and cannot look at sin (Isaiah 59:2), and is the giver of the spirit, then a newborn baby’s soul cannot be sinful.

    Man-made Church doctrine holds strongly to the idea of original sin and teach that sin, based on their false interpretation of Psalm 51:5 is passed down from every mother to every child. The false doctrine of original sin allows them to go through with their other man-made teaching of infant baptism. 

    A natural question is, if sin is passed through our parents, then what about Jesus?

    He was born of woman; therefore, he would have to be born sinful, and therefore, could not forgive sins (1 Peter 1:18-19).

    Scripture rejects the false teaching of original sin. God creates humans and gives them their souls. A baby is born with an innocent soul, and as he or she matures, the decision must be made to do right or wrong (Isaiah 7:15-16).

    1. PhoenixV profile image67
      PhoenixVposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      I agree.

    2. profile image69
      graceinusposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      PandN. There is not enough space here to type Romans 4:15-19. But in short without God's grace babies, children and adults would not have chance to enter the Kingdom of God. These verses tell all of us why we do have a chance. Correct me if I'm wrong

    3. PlanksandNails profile image84
      PlanksandNailsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Sin is spoken of in Scripture as something chosen, and not inherited. ((Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness - 1 John 3:4))

    4. Rich kelley profile image61
      Rich kelleyposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Aaron
      Saved and sent to the Ekklesia
      Thank you
      Rich

    5. profile image69
      graceinusposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      PandN- Unless I'm missing something or misunderstanding, I believe all physical deaths are the result of the initial sin in the Garden of Eden. It's the reason we have physical death. Even Jesus who was without sin died. Note: Genesis 2:17

    6. PlanksandNails profile image84
      PlanksandNailsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Jesus Christ was/is a man as taught in the Bible. If men are born sinners, then Jesus Christ was born a sinner, or you must deny that he was a man. Also, Jesus died because he yielded up his spirit.

    7. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      P&N: The Holy Spirit kept Jesus under subjection (I Cor 9:27) as we must do today! Jn 4:24! Didn't the Spirit of God enter Mary's womb?  Gal 4:4, but Jesus was God in the flesh!  He was tempted (Matt 4:1-11) but didn't yield.  He knew "no sin!"

    8. Rich kelley profile image61
      Rich kelleyposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Norine
      What version of the bible says that Jesus was God in the flesh? I've 36 version on my computer and cannot find those words any where.

    9. PlanksandNails profile image84
      PlanksandNailsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Rich,

      Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

      Norine's false oneness Pentecostal doctrine supposes that the Father came in the flesh, which is actually a subtle denial that Jesus came in the flesh.

    10. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Rich: Jn 1:1-14 Heb 1:1-14 Col 1:9-17 Eph 3:8-9.  P&N:If no orig sin we'd not need a Savior! We need the Holy Spirit to guide us! Yes, you can believe or not (choice), but if you"believe" you will "receive" the Holy Spirit! NEVER forget He is "I

    11. Rich kelley profile image61
      Rich kelleyposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      We don’t need original sin for a Savior. We are born into a world full of sin and by nature will choose to sin, that is why we need a savior. One just like us to offer His blood for the forgiveness of our sins, not contrived sins in the womb.

    12. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      noreen-- explain your understanding of He is 1

    13. PlanksandNails profile image84
      PlanksandNailsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      God is not angry with the nature that he has created humans, only the perversion of it. It is the voluntary wicked deeds, not the nature in which we are born. God's wrath is not on innocent babies in the good nature they are created in. Eccl. 7:29

    14. profile image69
      graceinusposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      PandN- I never implied that Jesus, as a man, was a born sinner.  I think there may be disconnect with what I'm trying to say and I don't know how else to explain it with regards to death. I will research this further. Thanks for making your points.

    15. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      I don't have enough  room here.Rd Jn 1:1-10, Heb1:1-14,Col 1:9-17,Eph3:8-9,Jn8:58, Exd 3:14.  U see, "carnality" kills! Jesus is in ALL places simultaneously! I don't know why believers can't "see" this if guided by the Holy Spirit?  THE SPIRIT awes

    16. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Noreen--most of the things you espouse are teachings of the churches of men and those of us who live by scripture rejected them long ago.   We are not looking for that here we are looking for scripture truth only no matter who has it the truth is all

    17. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Charlie: I've given you Scripture after Scripture (Truth), yet it seems that truth is not what you want to hear!  I have not spoken, but the Word of God!  For "It is Written!"  It seems u want "confirmation" not "revelation!"

    18. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      noreen- NO you have given the church of men understanding of scripture which I rejected 35 yrs ago.   U also give me IS 1:18 thinking it says we should reason together but God is saying come reason with Him, no man. Truth comes via the HS not men

    19. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      If HS is in one, then it applies!  II TIm 3:16 says "ALL scripture is given by the inspiration of God....for doctrine,for reproof, for corr, for instr in righteousness!"  If you "rejected" the Word of God, what can I say? I Cor 3:6, II Cor 3:18;4:3!

    20. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      noreen-   it depends on which holy spirit, there are many but only One Holy Spirit of God.

    21. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Wow!  Never expected that of you Charlie!  Be careful Charlie!  You maybe an unbeliever of the Word, but I still pray for you!  II John 1:10-11

    22. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      noreen-- wow you really need to get rid of that religious (denominational) spirit that you wear so proudly.         Please do not pray for me,   I Never reject the word of God and always reject the word of 1 that tries to convince me he/she/it is God

    23. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Charlie: I've "only" given you Scripture! It's up to u! I pray ALL come to "Truth" u included!  I see "religion" has conquered u as well and God has turned u over to a "reprobate mind" instead of Acts 17:11!  II John 1:10-11! How did we get off topic

    24. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      noreen-- you got off topic by trying to convert us to your church of men beliefs under the guise of wanting to learn.   Not an unusual thing but wrong.     Your comments  are no longer welcome in this discussion.

    25. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Must have really got you thinking!  Good!  John 16:1-4 applies to you Charlie! II John 1:10-11 also! II Cor 4:3-6. Nice chatting! Search the Scriptures! Acts 17:11

    26. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      noreen- rather than delete this one I will leave it for all to see why you had to be removed.     You have reverted to what the churches of men always do when questioned.  --attack  because they have no scriptural ground to stand on.

    27. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      I stand on the "Word of God" and will repeat "everything" before the judgment seat of Christ!  I will tell you as I've told others, "You can delete my comments, but you can't delete the "Word of God!"  It must have really "cut!"  Hebrews 4:12.

    28. celafoe profile image61
      celafoeposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      doreen-- on 2nd thought maybe I will just let you continue to make a fool of yourself for all to see.    I really have no more to say to you as your religious spirit is still in the way.

    29. profile image78
      Hxprofposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Christ didn't have a sin nature.  Period.  This is why Satan couldn't find a way "into" Christ when tempting Him in the desert.  Christ was a man who was conceived by the Holy Spirit....no sin nature.  He was capable of sinning, but didn't sin.

    30. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      HxPROF:  Amen!  James 4:7-8!

  8. Ericdierker profile image57
    Ericdierkerposted 3 years ago

    It can be argued that these quotes are taken out of context. It could be argued that how I use them now is a claim for universalism. That is a slippery slope. But it does bring to mind that the suggestion that a baby enter into heaven is nearly akin to a universalism concept. We must be frank and honest and at least see the parallels.
    These first two quotes are for the proposition that all CAN be accepted by God1 John 2:2 (ESV)
    2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.Paul wrote, "God is rich in mercy; because of His great love for us, He brought us to life with Christ when we were dead in sin" (Ephesians 2:4-5).
    This one indicates an ability for those not able to fully accept Christ (here prophets prior to Christ) still have sanctuary in grace.
    1 Peter 1:10-11 (ESV) 10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories
    This one is repeated with such clarity within the NT that it seems it must have an “on its face” meaning other than a parable.
    "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 19:14; also Mark 10:14; Luke 18:16)
    The question and limitation in scope finds one reaching hard to translate any portion of the NT to support the notion that babies go to heaven. Indeed these are the best I can come up with and even here I must stretch the notion to get the result that I want. Make no mistake I want to find some direct scripture mandating that babies go to heaven no matter what. But such is not the case.
    So when we are humbled and find no answer in scripture we are best to be guided by the Holy Spirit. The trouble there is that once again we find ourselves in a situation where the answer seems to be “figure it out for yourself”. The OT brings solace in a plethora of Psalms and other wonderful versus exuding peace and grace for all. However that is not the arena in which we look for answers for us now.
    Sometimes the answer is in the absence of something. Is the answer to this question found in the absence of an answer? Yes it is.

    1. Rich kelley profile image61
      Rich kelleyposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Christ was silent on many matters that seem important today. If a question is not addressed it is normally because the answer is already known. Often the known answer doesn't fit so it becomes the time to start with the questions.

    2. Ericdierker profile image57
      Ericdierkerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Well said - hi hi that is what I tried to say in the 300 words cropped off my answer --   We are blessed to be even looking for such important answers.

  9. profile image56
    Norine Williamsposted 3 years ago

    Charlie, this is the "best question" I've seen on HubPages!  Of course we all know that we were "..shaped in iniquity..." according to Psalms 51:8 but thank God for the shedding of His blood babies, who do not comprehend or have not rejected God, can receive salvation!

    Great Question!

    I Timothy 2:4 says "Who will have ALL men to be saved..." babies included.  Hebrews 9:26 says "...hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."  Therefore, by the shedding of His blood and since babies have not rejected God, although "shaped in iniquity," thank Jesus for His blood, they will receive salvation!

    Although "shaped in iniquity," sin is a choice according to John 5:14; 18:1. Romans 6:12;19 and Ephesians 4:26 and babies have not acquired an intellect to choose!

    1. Rich kelley profile image61
      Rich kelleyposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Psa 51:8  Make me hear joy and gladness, That the bones You have broken may rejoice.
      Don't think this is the "shaped in iniquity" scripture.

      Psalms 51:5 works.

    2. profile image56
      Norine Williamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Sorry typo!

 
working