Is the modern church "pastor" the money changer that Jesus cast out of the temple?
(mc) built an un authorized business inside the temple (pastor) made an office of a non existingposition (mc) sold animals for sacrifice that were not perfect (bringing sin into temple)
(pastor) sells books,tapes,videos with false doctrines "freely you received freely give" (bringing sin into church (mc) took money from temple that was not authorized (pastor) takes money not authorized from church ( salary, special benefits, tithes) ( takes advantage of church sales tax free , ilegal- more sin in the church) and much more error in the church of men.
what do you think?
Good question. It's possible because Christ was telling them that their shouldn't be selling of anything in the house of God. Pastors sell their books, and they sell dinner plates at churches as well. Some of these churches seem to be hard-headed.
Although there are obedient churches that give away clothes, foods, and employment for those in need. [Matthew 21:13 It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.]
[Matthew 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,]
Maybe someone need to flip over some tables as Christ did, to get the point across.
ann- agreed, flip over some "churches" and cast out some "pastors" as both are not found in the new testament. done away with by Christ, but better be ready to go to jail as Paul did when he upset the hierarchy. they appeal to the cops not to God
Charlie this is such an important question. It is part of the reason I use preacher man instead of "pastor" -- you did not even mention the terrible notion of calling a preacher - Father. Yikes that is troublesome. Man sins, God forgives,,, but only if there is a true (turning away from the bad conduct) repentance. I preached for several years and I "preach" here. One time I got a gift of 300 smackeroos on Christmas. I handed to my wife and she gave to our wonderful lady who cooks for us as communion of same faithful folks. I got an unexpected 3,000 bucks in my business that same week. Maybe not connected to helping feed a group and about 20 homeless.
The best "sermon" I ever did was to children out under a big Norfolk pine tree. I was paid alright with smiles and an excitement to study the Bible more.
"pass the plate" is really a bad notion. A congregant should not be such a bad steward as to do that. We members of the Ecclesial should look to what can help others and do it like our woman who gave all from little.
But perhaps I differ from you a bit on this. I think blue haired ladies that have bake sales to provide for something like flowers to adorn the "temple" are pretty cool, I always buy for more than is asked as a donation.
I think Osteen sins from entrance fees to his "performances" but maybe OK from his book sales. His wife writes these great little kid stuff books about rewards of good and consequences of bad. That whole situation makes me feel yucky inside. Can it be a false promise that brings someone to Christ if they truly then find Christ on their own. ---- That is so tough, like old verses or New Testament.
I compliment you on raising this. Though as we all know the compliment is truly only toward God.
Eric, I would buy Joel Osteen's book from Walmart. But hopefully he's not just selling at his church, know what the Bible says about it. Christ isn't just referring that Bible verse to the sellers but to the buyers also. (Matthew 21:12)
ann- he is under investigation for tax evasion etc because of the way he uses the "church" as his cash cow. Why would you buy or read anythnig from that apostate deceiver of the brethren??
How easy to accuse, how hard to approach a man and set forth standards.
Eric, The children under the Norfolk pine and the preacher man are a good pattern. If there is a need, then there will be those who step up in spite of the lack of financial gain. Only when wealth is not an issue will the church find its place.
I am just having trouble with this. Don't get me wrong here, but I really do want a pro and not an amateur as designated team captain. I know about Paul working and toiling so as not to be a burden on the church. But for 3 years Jesus had no job?
Per the biblical record, Jesus stayed at homes of supporters. When he needed money for taxes, it was donated by a fish..sorry, don't mean to be sarcastic, but it's in the gospels. When he needed food, he created it by miracle, i.e. bread and fish.
Chris why are the day to day expenses not talked about. Did I read something poorly about Judas being the keeper of the "purse" of the group? God provided him with needed things, doesn't a congregation do the same it is just that God works different
It's a good point, Eric, and really cuts to the chase. John 12:6, Judas, keeper of the bag, helped himself to what was in it. Corruption started even among the disciples. It shows that Jesus did have income but doesn't state the source. Donations?
And we are so well reminded that Jesus the chief of all priests did not wear the robes of a rich man but allowed himself to be cleansed by the most expensive of oils. -- for himself. And we must wonder of the donkey rode instead of walking.
Hi Chris, Christ was a Carpenter, I don't think He had to pay for much of anything. Especially if He did Services, He healed the sick, cast out demons, taught the Word, raised people from the dead. And did I mention He was a crafty Carpenter?
HI Ann, I see you've chosen Mark 6:3, "Carpenter," over its parallel passage Matthew 13:55, "Carpenter's son." Also, you seem to know a lot about Jesus' activities as a carpenter when these are the only two references to that in the New Testament.
I'll throw my two bits in here before reading the comments by Ann and Eric and anyone else who can type faster than I can. Charlie, I agree with you on this point. So I won't restate what you have already stated.
I'd like to comment on your use of the word "unauthorized." You used it along with "not authorized three times." Paul quoted Deuteronomy 25:4 when he wrote that certain church leaders, especially those who preached and taught, were worthy of the wages paid to them. So a paid clergy was inevitable from the beginning and authorized by the Apostle Paul. What happens when we attach money and power to a position? It gets mired in politics and corruption.
In a similar way, Jesus himself opened the door to the corruption of the church. The meaning of his words have been debated, but he did mean something when he said to Peter, "thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church." Jesus, the man who was said to be God in the flesh, went on, in the same passage, to say, "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven." Clearly, something was being transferred in these statements.
What is to be expected of a gathering of people under a designated leader who has been endowed by God with great authority and power? Corruption is the answer, as I see it. The undertaking was doomed from the beginning.
So the only point on which I disagree with the original question and setup is that paid positions within the church, positions of power, were most definitely authorized from the beginning by the biggest players of all, Paul and Jesus.
And spoke in such love I appreciate from my friend of years. But by golly jingles are there no leaders?
Eric, Thanks for seeing the spirit in which I said this. Are there no leaders? I believe there are and will be. It will require a departure from how things are currently and have historically been done, a cataclysmic restructuring of the Church.
Chris refer to Lk 10:7 which you refer to. the "wages" were food and shelter only that which God promised us, not a paycheck and all the xtras
Charlie, yes, the context defines wages here as food/shelter. The word is used broadly as compensation including money. Here is another misstep which opened the door for corruption. The step to money was inevitable. Better to say "no pay" of any kind
That may be a first. haha. Thanks, Charlie.
I have the idea that compensation does not disqualify a preacher. I have been researching, personally, that notion. I am sorry to report that I find no exception. Many attendances at many congregations of all walks. They are compromised by need.
eric-of you research ways men which of course support their way of doing things. We are talking about what SCRIPTURE SAYS, which they reject and devise their own ways as they do in everything. there is no scripture to support modern church ways
He was criticizing commercial activity in a holy space. Today's equivalent could range from Starbucks in the church lobby to daycares on church property to credit cards accepted as tithe (so that people go in debt and pay massive fees in the temple).
I would say no as a direct answer to the question. The temple and the institutional church were both run by men. The directions for the temple, it’s funding and day to day running are mostly covered in the scripture. The same cannot be said for anything known as the institutional church.
Bible believing Christians quickly point out all the problems caused with the aural laws that have been passed down with the Jewish religion. Christ even made many aspects of his teachings rebellion to the oral laws and practices of the religious leaders. Despite this the system then and now is nothing but volumes upon volumes of man-made laws.
Pointing to a money bag kept by the disciples is typical of the way justification of the church system today works. Instead of hearing the words of Christ that said NOTHING good about hirelings, we search to justify what man has built. We quickly point out how the originals sold everything they had and put it at the feet of the disciples, yet fail to mention none of the money was spent to send someone’s kids to college, or to build a house to live in, or establish a retirement fund.
Instead of teaching what exactly was to be tithed (not money and not everyone), the modern hirelings flat out lie and twist scripture to fill the coffers. The famous men of today would not sell books if not for the platform they have built with the deceptive use of the tithing system.
Volumes have been written about the wrongs and deception of churches, yet people still defend them and build new ones every year. The spirit of Adam is still around if man wants something he will reach out and pluck it for his consumption. If not enough people are plucking things from the tree, we will train up a new snake to talk us into it. Until we start eating from the tree that God wants us to eat from we will be banished from His presence.
2Peter 2:1-4 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept
It’s easy to detect the moneychangers today. So many ogle over their every word and deed. They sell the Gospel as entertainment for money and profit. Their “gospel” is sold in buildings they call “church.” Passing of the plate while heart strings are pulled is a common tactic to fill the coffers. The sales groups in the church system are called the board that create environments and templates to appeal to those who walk within her doors. What they call “ministry” is actually a business that sells religious wares and services for profit, although they claim to be “non-profit.”
Christ let Judas carry around the moneybag knowing he was a thief. He did it for a reason to show the real betrayers of the Gospel that help themselves to what does not belong to them.
Jesus said, “where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”
The modern pastor’s today love money and despise God by their behaviours. Their devotion to their “ministry” business is about performing the “right” way to get their “thirty pieces of silver.”
Unfortunately, people put their trust where all the money is. Christ never carried money, but relied on the resources of the Kingdom that came from his Father. Christ gave generously with discernment for the purposes of the Kingdom trusting in his Father to supply all his needs.
The moneychanger’s concern is not to give, but to take for profit for the purpose of their self-ambitions to create their own kingdoms on earth.
The modern “pastor” is simply the replacement of Judas’ position.
He said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because HE WAS A THIEF, and having charge of the moneybag he used to HELP HIMSELF TO WHAT WAS PUT INTO IT. – John 12:16
Helping yourself is about selfish ambition, but helping others is about concerning ourselves with the needs of others. The problem today is the deception of those who claim to help others, but do it for their own selfish ambition and profits.
The temple system is defunct along with the priest-class. Christ abolished it. To keep it going today with its money changing modern pastor hireling is symbolic of trying to “resurrect” Judas, rather than celebrating the resurrection of Christ who is the builder of "temples" that cannot be built with man’s hands.
Planksandnails, it's a good analysis, I think. I'm wondering what the alternative is to the megachurch. The same issues can be found in many smaller churches. Is the house church the answer, with no paid clergy, using money only for missions?
The only way for an alcoholic to clean himself up is not to change one type of booze for another, but to walk away from it completely. Alcoholics are found in any type of bar, big or small, but those who don't drink are found elsewhere.
What an interesting concept to compare "religious church goers" to addicts. An included symptom of the manic side of Bi-Polar is extreme "religiosity". Not extreme spirituality. Is there a genetic predisposition here? All nurture or some nature?
Churches and their pastors do not follow the standard of Jesus Christ's ministry. In the three and a half year Christ taught the gospel of the Kingdom of God, not once did He received pay for doing so. It is often forgotten that Jesus never expected to be paid for or during HIS ministry. And the disciple NEVER paid Jesus to teach them the gospel of the Kingdom. We often forget the words of Jesus when H said, " Freely you have received, freely give. Jesus FREELY taught the gospel of the KIngdpm of God and EXPECT His disciples to do the same and in the same manner. The best example is found in Matthew 10: 5-42. Most so called pastors and pew warmers seem to forget the passage of verses I just mentioned in the bible when it comes to THEIR ministry.
Jesus wanted His disciple to continue HIS ministry, not their own and different andseperate ministry that would be different from Jesus Christ. Christ wanted them to use the EXACT WORDS Jesus Christ used. Not something made up or twisted to sound good or preach out of context to suite their own agenda. Jesus NEVER expect disciples of Christ to be PAID for spreading the gospel of the Kingdom. Because the gospel of the Kingdom was given to them FREELY........ and these so called church pastors make me sick.
Great question celafoe and God bless.
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