jump to last post 1-18 of 18 discussions (84 posts)

Baptism

  1. sunflower1 profile image61
    sunflower1posted 7 years ago

    Do you believe babies should be baptized?

    1. profile image60
      (Q)posted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Do they actually have a choice? Does anyone have a choice to be indoctrinated into their parents religion?

      1. sunflower1 profile image61
        sunflower1posted 7 years agoin reply to this

        I have a problem with people who answer a question and have no profile to say why!

      2. sunflower1 profile image61
        sunflower1posted 7 years agoin reply to this

        I have a problem with people who answer a question with a question, and have no profile to say why!

    2. Davidsonofjesie profile image60
      Davidsonofjesieposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      No it should be only for those who can understand why they need it!

    3. Cagsil profile image59
      Cagsilposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      NO! smile

      1. ForKicks profile image54
        ForKicksposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        I think we have a winner.

      2. profile image0
        SirDentposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        I agree with Cagsil.

        1. sunflower1 profile image61
          sunflower1posted 7 years agoin reply to this

          That was easy! Why?

          1. profile image0
            SirDentposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Baptism is symbolic of death burial and resurrection in Jesus Christ. It is an outward sign of an inward change. Babies are not ready for baptism. They must be able to make the decision for themselves.

            1. Mikel G Roberts profile image86
              Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              I agree, and I believe the reason babies get baptized is a direct result of the scare tactics of 'going to hell' and the misconception of being born with 'Original Sin'... *being guilty of a sin committed by someone else.

              1. profile image0
                SirDentposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Original sin was made by Adam and Eve. We are all born with a sin nature. We do not pay for the sin of Adam and Eve, but we  pay for our own sins.

            2. sunflower1 profile image61
              sunflower1posted 7 years agoin reply to this

              Have u been baptized?

              1. tantrum profile image60
                tantrumposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Yes I was. My family is Catholic.

    4. IntimatEvolution profile image81
      IntimatEvolutionposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      I never understood the reason for doing so.  You know children are recognized as innocent, until they are of the age to know the difference.  That means, it should be solely based off that individual's timeline, rite of passage or personal life dilemma.  Moreover, if children are guaranteed their place in heaven as the bible says, why do they need to be baptize in the first place?  However, it is so ingrained in us Christians to baptize our children early, that it is done without second thought.

      {I baptized my son at birth}

    5. profile image0
      cosetteposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      if you are in a faith where baptism is a rite then yes, all babies should be. but if not, then, no.

      1. sunflower1 profile image61
        sunflower1posted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Let me ask u this. Will your baby be baptized?

        1. profile image0
          SirDentposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          My son was not baptized as a baby. He was baptized a little over a year ago and it was his choice. He is now 13.

        2. tantrum profile image60
          tantrumposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Even I'm an Atheist, I baptized my daughter, just in case she wanted to be religious when she grew up. It didn't happen though, and being baptized  didn't hurt her .For me it's a ritual, religious rules. That's all.

          1. IntimatEvolution profile image81
            IntimatEvolutionposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            See, it is hard to put aside those ideas of Baptism that have been ingrained into us all.  You know your daughter could be religious when she grows up, with or without your baptism for her.  That makes no difference.  But still, when it comes to making that decision we all want the best for our children.  The idea of them not being baptize at birth, is almost too scary to not do.   However, Atheist or not, somewhere deep seeded inside you is not for sure if your assumption on God is right. I admire you for getting your daughter baptized, even though you say your an Atheist.   

            You know, like I said before I baptized my child too. That is just what us Catholics do.  Still though, was the fact if there is a heaven, I didn't want him to miss the chance of being with God.  I wanted the best for him.  He's an Atheist himself now, and fully knows the difference between my beliefs and his lack thereof.  Still, I thank God everyday that I had the wisdom to Baptize him before it was too late. 

            Funny how that all works out.

            1. tantrum profile image60
              tantrumposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              I baptized my daughter not because I was scared of her future, but because I thought it would be very selfish of me,not to give her the opportunity of following a religion if she chose too. She even got her communion at 8 years old. Of course she always knew I didn't believe in anything, but I never told her I thought mine was the truth. She always had the liberty to choose.

              1. IntimatEvolution profile image81
                IntimatEvolutionposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                So besides your Catholic faith, and now your new Atheist calling- how many other religions or lack thereof have you introduced her too?  You know, in the spirit of giving her "opportunity of following a religion if she chose too."  Lots, no others, how many?

                1. tantrum profile image60
                  tantrumposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  Apart from Catholic, she read about almost all other religions.
                  When she was in her teens ,she decided to follow Hinduism. Now she's Agnostic.

                  1. IntimatEvolution profile image81
                    IntimatEvolutionposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    My son has followed a similar path.  I really find it all so interesting.

            2. sunflower1 profile image61
              sunflower1posted 7 years agoin reply to this

              My father taught me there were two topics never to discuss religion and politics. And I see his wisdom in this hub but also understand why these topics are so emotional. Beliefs are strong but judgment is wrong. No one is really right or wrong here and that is why I like 'IntimatEvolution' response. She baptized her child according to her beliefs without asking any commitment from that child to adhere to those beliefs. Do you know of anyone who has asked for an absolution of a their baptism? They may choose to be baptized in a different faith or choose to follow their own life path. So was the original baptism harmful?

              1. goldenpath profile image73
                goldenpathposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                No, not harmful just unnecessary and that's where the disconnect is.

    6. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      it depends on the 'Rules' of your religion.

    7. alexandriaruthk profile image54
      alexandriaruthkposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      baptism is just ritual, what is more important are the everyday values and practices that are being modeled by parents to the children

    8. goldenpath profile image73
      goldenpathposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Absolutely not!  The practice, although well intended by parents, is an abomination in the sight of God.  The universe, the purpose thereof and our design is to have agency or the ability to choose.  Until a child is accountable for their own actions and thoughts they cannot expect to choose to enter the ordinance of baptism.  Christ appeased the any affect of "original sin".  A broken heart, contrite spirit and the willingness to serve and the desire to repent is what's needed for baptism.  A baby and an unaccountable child has not these facilities and is therefore whole and clean until then.

      1. profile image0
        Deborah Sextonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        PPLeeease..Give me proof this is an abomination. Scripture..Book Chapter.. Verse
        "Suffer the little children to come unto me."

        1. goldenpath profile image73
          goldenpathposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          I cannot except through revelation which the vast percentage of souls on this platform are not willing to accept.  This is partially why we all disagree on ancient scriptural text.  There are a great many things that have been taken from or changed in the Bible to accomodate certain ancient agendas.  God is unchangeable and continues to clarify the Bible meanings and present revelation.  Modern revelation is part of the "restitution of all things" as written in the Bible.

          God loves little children.  Always has and always will.  They cannot sin.  Sin has no power over them.  Temptation cannot sway them.  They are not accountable but are pure.  They are not under any Law until they are accountable.  How many children have died throughout history without baptism?  The number is not countable with human understanding.  If the children are so loved is God willing to send them to an endless damnation because they are not baptized?  Absolutely not. 

          Baptism is unto the repentant.  Repentance is the first fruits of baptism.  Children cannot repent for they cannot sin.  No such power is over them.  That is a part of the enmity that God has placed between Satan and children.  If they need no repentance they need no baptism.  Therefore, if they are baptized it becomes a "dead work" for them as it is not necessary.  This is how it becomes an abomination.  Baptism is of vital importance and when man perverts it into a work for a protected segment of people that need no baptism as of yet it becomes diluted and worthless. 

          If we were to take infant baptism at face value that many religious sects place upon it then the countless children who have not been baptized throughout history would have had to perish in certain spiritual death.  This is not justice nor is it mercy - both virtues of which we all submit that God has an abundance of.

          I know this feeling of baptism exists because I have been told it by many notable religious figures of various denominations.  I respect other faiths so I do not name them here.  I know it exists because they have said so about my child when he died as a child. 

          Baptism is of vital importance.  It is only logical that Satan would have prepared a way to pervert it's meaning and lead many down such a path.  As I have said before.  It is not vastly done due to conscious misinterpretation but rather tradition.  Many baptize children without knowing the original meaning and vital nature of it but do so out of tradition.

          1. profile image60
            (Q)posted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Don't you mean that your god changes his mind entirely from one bible to the next?



            Except for the 25,000 children he allows to painfully suffer of starvation every day.



            He loves them so much he can't wait for the next round to be born and then starve to death.



            So, he lets sinners live and children starve to death.



            They are dead, lying in the streets while the little wormies feast on their entrails.



            At least 25,000 will die today without a baptism. 



            Yet, he lets them suffer painfully from starvation in which death is welcome.



            How about a little food instead of baptism?



            Or, just dead.



            Seems baptism is far more important than food to your god and to you.



            Yes, we see your gods justice and mercy every day where countless children who have not been baptized perish in certain death, spiritual and otherwise.



            In other words, you're as gullible as the day is long.

            1. profile image0
              Deborah Sextonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              Don't blame God for something man does. There are many rich people and countries that could help but they don't. Again this is man.
              God is not a dictator...He allows those who will.
              God made man to receive from him but they turned their backs because they wanted to receive pleasure in the flesh and not from God. Man was given dominion of the earth. This is how man runs it.
              People should not have children they can't shelter, feed and clothe..Again this is man.

              1. profile image60
                (Q)posted 7 years agoin reply to this

                I'm not, the blame lies squarely on goldenpath for his words.



                Your pathetic attempt to justify the deaths of thousands every day with your puerile understanding of the world is sickening.

                Actually, people should not have children who think like you.

                1. profile image0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  I take care of my child and he is very happy.
                  Nothing I think is pathetic.
                  Why don't you help take care of those children instead of hating those who think differently.
                  To me, hate is pathetic. It is hate that kills our children.

                  And what words of goldenpath?

                2. profile image0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  It's true, only people so engorged with hate, like you should have children. You can then teach them to hate. Hate will help them steal, kill and slander others.

    9. Onusonus profile image85
      Onusonusposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      I would never do that.

    10. aguasilver profile image86
      aguasilverposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Infant baptism is a futile gesture, it's a sweet little ceremony and those who do it feel better and secure, but it has no meaning.

      God requires that the baptist has chosen baptism to declare their rejection of the world and acceptance of Christ as their Lord and Master, to illustrate that Satan no longer has any call over their lives and that they are set apart, called out, bond slaves to Christ.

      Thanks, you inspired a new hub from this topic; Baptism - Who needs it?, which I just published!

      1. sunflower1 profile image61
        sunflower1posted 7 years agoin reply to this

        R U a bond slave to Christ? Were U baptized? I feel no fulfillment in your new hub!

  2. ForKicks profile image54
    ForKicksposted 7 years ago

    I'm not that high on relgion, but this should be pretty entertaining coming from people that are.

    *waits for them to arrive*

  3. WriteAngled profile image90
    WriteAngledposted 7 years ago

    It doesn't matter either way.

    If someone is baptised as a baby, and then decides to follow a different spiritual path or no spiritual path later in life, the fact of the baptism will be irrelevant to them.

    If they continue within the religion of their baptism, they will view the baptism as a valid sacrament.

    More to the point is to ask whether children should be exposed to any religious or anti-religious concepts under the name of "education" until they are old enough to think for themselves.

  4. profile image0
    sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago

    Well we don't until they are old enough to understand the meaning but it doesn't matter unless you have the faith to match.

    Atheists, liberals and idiots don't mess with stuff you don't know or care to know. When you do you're just showing your ass! Try and more past this phase in your development, good luck!

  5. Mikel G Roberts profile image86
    Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago

    Both mine were. 

    <-----Ex-Catholic

  6. WriteAngled profile image90
    WriteAngledposted 7 years ago

    I was baptised as a Catholic baby and educated in a Catholic primary school and then Catholic convent grammar school. My first doubts about Catholicism came when I was about 13.

    By the time I left university in 1975, I knew I definitely was not Catholic. The next 21 years were spent questioning and exploring my beliefs.

    I was married to an atheist Jew for 13 of those years. 

    Neither of my daughters were baptised and neither have joined any religion.

    In 1996, I took the first steps on a non-Christian spiritual path, which I have followed ever since.

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image86
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      (isn't an athiest-jew an oxymoron?)   wink

      1. profile image0
        Deborah Sextonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Nope..Jew is nationality.

        Atheist-Jewish would be.

        1. Mikel G Roberts profile image86
          Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          I thought Jewish/Jew was the religion and Israeli was the nationality...

          1. profile image0
            Deborah Sextonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            I guess kind of. In America anyone born in Israel is a Jew to them.
            Hebrew is the actual term for the people. Jewish/Judaism is the religion. Seems Jew can be both.

            1. Sab Oh profile image57
              Sab Ohposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              Why do you say that? That is certainly not a universally held view in America.

              1. profile image0
                Deborah Sextonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                My husband has been called a Jew since he got here when he was 15 years old. He prefers it.  I have never heard him called anything else.
                What do you hear them called?

                1. Sab Oh profile image57
                  Sab Ohposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  Israelis. There are non-Jewish people born and living in Israel.

                  1. profile image0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    Sorry, Israeli is an offensive term. Not good. There are those of Israel and those of Judah/Judaea. Calling all of them Israeli is like calling all women blonds.

                    Really?? there are non-Jewish living there? I didn't know. neutral

      2. WriteAngled profile image90
        WriteAngledposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Jew is an ethnic identity. My ex's family are ethnic Jews. If I remember correctly, one of his grandparents was a rabbi. However his parents both joined the communist party. My ex and his brother also became party members.

        My ex always used to mock any form of religion or spirituality, saying it was a crutch for spineless morons who were too weak to take responsibility for their own lives.

        He didn't see that his political beliefs also had a religious character smile

  7. goldenpath profile image73
    goldenpathposted 7 years ago

    When our child died in infancy my inlaws pressured to have the child baptized or it's "going to hell".  Although at the time I was still not quite active in my own faith the insinuation of damnation despite the child's indecision seemed repulsive and counter to any justice and mercy of God.  It was wrong and I knew it.  For something as important as salvation, something that personal.  It must be based on the freedom of choice.  I cannot override agency and induct my child into the Kingdom of God.  It must be his choice.  We did not get the child baptized.  I challenge anybody to accuse that innocent child is damned.  Children are "alive in Christ" and are whole.  The Atonement, including the suffering and crucifixion, of Jesus Christ fulfilled that broken bridge between us and the Father inducted through Adam and Eve.  Although Adam and Eve knew the transgression was necessary in order for the plan of humanity to take place.  The other part of the plan was for Christ to come and heal that gap and to fulfill the Law of Moses.  The plan is perfect and remains in effect today.  Unaccountable children are protected and are whole.

  8. Valerie F profile image60
    Valerie Fposted 7 years ago

    You know, when Jesus blessed the children, they were brought by their parents. Somehow, in light of that, I really don't think baptizing babies is an "abomination."

    1. goldenpath profile image73
      goldenpathposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, Jesus was blessing them.  The children were "brought" not dragged against their agency.  When they were blessed they were not asked or pressured to enter into a promise or covenant with him.  There was no ill-agency taking place.  That is different from infant baptism where there is no personal choice involved on the part of the one receiving the baptism.  Every ordinance entered into in one's life is a step or a journey.  They all should and must be thoughtfully and sincerely entered into according to choice - especially the first ordinance of baptism.

      I don't condemn anyone for their choice in baptizing their children at such a young age.  It is their choice and most of all tradition to do so.  That is their faith.  The Lord does not condemn for it either.  However, in His sight any ordinance or action in life not willingly entered into is a violation of personal agency which is part of our primary ingredients for personal progress.  He does not inflict vengeance for such an act but He does weep, but with understanding.

      1. Valerie F profile image60
        Valerie Fposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Nowhere does the Gospel say none of the children Jesus blessed were babies. Nowhere in the Gospel did Jesus say, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them... unless they're babies being brought to me by their parents, because they're too young to choose."

        Baptism comes with blessings, regardless of whether people choose them or not. I would think that God would weep more about parents willfully withholding any blessing from their children.

        Do you insist your children eat their vegetables, or do you withhold all nutritious food until they are old enough to choose it for themselves?

  9. h.a.borcich profile image59
    h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago

    My son was baptized as an infant, same as I was. I do not believe a childs soul is in jeopardy until they reach the age of accountability. His baptism represented my bringing my child to Jesus - more of a dedication - to give him a solid christian upbringing. I did as an adult rededicate my life to Christ and was baptized again then.
      The church I attend also does not feel infants require a baptism. When a child is old enough to understand and desires to be - they are baptized. Instead on Mothers Day and Fathers Day there is a dedication ceremony with prayer for the children.
      Holly

  10. Mikel G Roberts profile image86
    Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago

    Did I Kill the thread? Bad joke or bad timing?

  11. WriteAngled profile image90
    WriteAngledposted 7 years ago

    There are Jews all over the world. They are not all Israeli citizens. The state of Israel does have the "right of return", whereby any Jew who wishes can receive Israeli citizenship.

    The Jews are a Semitic people. Originally, they became distinct from other Semitic groups through their religion. However, today there are many Jews who consider themselves to be atheists.

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image86
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      OK so the name of the Faith of Israel, is the same name as an ancient tribe?

      How does 'Hebrew' fit in there ...it is/was a language, is it also a tribe/nationality?

      1. WriteAngled profile image90
        WriteAngledposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        It's a horrendously complex question, given it involves several thousand years of history.

        I am not an expert on the subject at all. If you want to delve into it any detail, Wikipedia has a very extensive article on the subject, with loads of links to related articles  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew

        1. Mikel G Roberts profile image86
          Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          You mean you'll need six or seven sentences to explain it to me instead of five?...wink

          Thank You for the candid answer, I will do the research, if it becomes a burning desire....(probably won't happen)...    smile

          1. WriteAngled profile image90
            WriteAngledposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            I'd probably need a hub... a very long one

      2. goldenpath profile image73
        goldenpathposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Very true explanation from Deborah.  In fact I am not Jewish at all.  I am just a white caucasion American but I am of the ancient tribe of Manassah.  My wife is of the tribe of Ephraim.

        1. profile image0
          Deborah Sextonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Oh thanks, but I didn't write any of that.

  12. Mikel G Roberts profile image86
    Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago

    Lol, well if you feel inspired, and have the time...lol

  13. profile image0
    Deborah Sextonposted 7 years ago

    Go here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew
    and scroll past the content box till you find "Who is a Jew"

  14. profile image0
    Deborah Sextonposted 7 years ago

    Yehudim is a word for those of Judah.

    The word Jew is used to refer to all of the physical and spiritual descendants of Jacob/Israel, and those of Abraham and Isaac and the word Judaism is used to refer to the beliefs. Technically, it's inaccurate, just as it is technically inaccurate to use the word Indian to refer to the native Americans. However, though inaccurate it is common both within the Jewish community and outside of it.

  15. goldenpath profile image73
    goldenpathposted 7 years ago

    There are few greater feelings in life than to have made that firm commitment to enter into the covenant willingly.  Then to follow that up with going down into the water and being submerged as was Christ and then coming up anew.  When done with sincerity of heart you literally feel the "old" self being left behind in the grave.

    1. sunflower1 profile image61
      sunflower1posted 7 years agoin reply to this

      What does this have to do with babies?

      1. goldenpath profile image73
        goldenpathposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Everything.  As said before baptism is unto repentance.  Repentance requires a broken heart and contrite spirit.  Since infants are protected and saved from temptation they need not baptism and therefore cannot, as of yet, receive that cleansing feeling that a baptism by authority is to produce.  The scenario I described is what one should feel as they enter baptism.  It is deeply personal and should be absolutely memorable to the one receiving the ordinance.  So not only are we imposing an ordiance upon them that they do not need we are also denying them the necessary cleansing feeling of the Spirit resting upon them as they emerge from the waters.  Add on top of that they do not remember the ordinance at all therefore cannot have a fraction of a meaning to them that it ought to - if it was necessary.

  16. wyanjen profile image84
    wyanjenposted 7 years ago

    I'm an atheist. (Liberal too, but not an idiot lol)

    I had my daughter baptized.
    There were problems with her birth and it was clear she would not survive.
    My family (mostly catholic) had gathered.

    There was a catholic priest volunteering at the hospital that night, and I asked a nurse to get him and have a baptism.

    I was actually in surgery while they did it, so I missed it.

    Of course I do not believe in god, sin, an afterlife or an eternal soul.
    But, consider what the baptism did:

    A.) My family was able to share and celebrate her. The ceremony was a way to give her a place in the family however briefly. We have photos and mementos - which I must admit, I keep locked away.

    B.) They had to name her as part of the ceremony. Had they waited for me to get out of surgery, SueAnn would have died without a name.

    I agree with your point of view Tantrum, but I would not have had her baptized if she could have survived. If she had grown up and decided to choose religion, I think it would have been more appropriate for her to do it for herself.

    smile

  17. profile image0
    sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago

    Wyanjen of course you're not an idiot!smile My comments are for those who feel it's necessary to put religious down for their beliefs.

    1. wyanjen profile image84
      wyanjenposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      lol
      Well, two outta three ain't bad...

      smile smile

      1. profile image0
        sneakorocksolidposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Keep smilin!big_smile

    2. profile image0
      Deborah Sextonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Anytime anyone writes anything about their beliefs it is called religious/religion so what's the difference?

      What's your beliefs?

  18. profile image0
    Deborah Sextonposted 7 years ago

    God made the earth and everything in it for humanity to take care of. God gave, man destroyed, man blames God. Typical way to try not to take responsibility.

    "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

    1. profile image60
      (Q)posted 7 years agoin reply to this

      You just encapsulated perfectly how your religion is destroying mankind and the planet. I didn't know you had it in you. Well done.

 
working