100,000 Britons have de-baptized themselves since the National Secular Society offered the service.
Another 100,000 in hell I guess?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090330/ts … ismfeature
The Church of England's response has been to pressure the government into allowing them to be of service to the community by putting Post Offices in their church buildings.
http://www.secularism.org.uk/now-its-fa … fices.html
As Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society, said: "The Church is desperate to find a new purpose. As a religious entity it is finished. It now has to find a new reason not to switch off the life support machine. With less than a million worshippers on the average Sunday, it would be dead and gone if it hadn't been enabled by the Government to extend its influence into so many other areas. It is increasingly looking to force itself on to the community through schools, hospitals and now through using its buildings to house essential services that will compel people through its doors. The Government is scared to say no. And so we all have to suffer as these pushy holy Joes elbow their way into yet another area of our lives."
Leave us alone?
what? What is this you say, leave us alone? Didn't aka dj ask you to do the same thing?
Leave us alone is right in your case. Mark you are a man true to your form. Welcome to what it feels like over here in America. Sucks doesn't it?
I carry an "interesting" knife scar and two missing teeth for dis-respecting a man's religion in the mid west. Well, two men's religion actually, and I am pretty sure one of them never walked again. Oh well. I was just passing through so no worries.
As a native of the midwest I totally believe you. Michigan is less barbaric than Indiana but not by a lot. (It depends which part of Michigan--I'm in a fairly easy going part with a big university.)
I have license plate holder that says "Jesus was a liberal Jew". In Indiana I got milkshakes, eggs, toilet paper--all kinds of crap thrown on my car everywhere I went, even at home. The first year we moved up here people would come up beside me on the highway and honk--I thought OMG now I will be shot, but no, they were giving me a thumbs up sign and laughing.
Parts of the U.S. are just plain nasty.
I like the de-bapitism idea though.
Pam- That is so sad to hear about those unfortunate experiences (actually if the windshield is damaged or anything then I guess you can report to the police for vandalism). Having said that I find in every religion the good part about coming together of different people (family/friends) and celebrating there joys to be a very enriching experience. As they say "man is a social animal" therefore we need the company of others and reasons to come together to celebrate.
But then there are a few extremely conservative folks who assume the higher moral ground and start pushing there views about dos/don'ts(through words/actions) and then the religion(s) start losing there appeal. If only religion was made voluntary(chose in adult life only) and totally a personal experience for everyone where every individual takes the good aspects of it(whatever that is be it any of the existing organized/unorganized religions or even atheism/agnosticism/rationalism) and does positive things like building schools/hospitals instead of pushing an agenda the world would have been much more tolerant and peaceful place.
In the part of Indiana where I grew up there is just no respect or tolerance for diversity in any form. When I worked for the Democratic party to get a Democrat into the Bush Congress (as MANY people did for the first time ever) the eggs and crap hit the house too.
That is really sad and it is due to a few such folks that the rest of the moderate wonderful folks also get a bad rap. In fact it is counter productive since nothing is ever achieved by forcing someone to do or believe in something(and even if some "progress" is made in momentarily converting some one then it will be short lived). And since you have a house there in Indiana too (as you once mentioned) and now in real life your neighbors/family/friends who are more religious(yet moderate) do you ever go there and participate and involve with them in occasions like Thanksgiving/ Christmas?
No actually we don't see our neighbors very much. We are on an acre. I see them when I walk the dog. Lots of them are actually from India, weirdly enough! They teach at the university here and work for the big drug companies.
WOW!! We really are everywhere(we were late starters in world travel but now we seem to have made up for it in sheer numbers)..LOL
Would this organized effort make the NSS a church?
I also saw that they charge for the certificates for de-baptising.
Ah you godless Brits! Founding fathers knew you'd end up this way, that's why they fought the war for independence!
Here things are much better. As far as I can see church parking lots are full on Sundays, and there are churches on every corner...
PS Sandy, Marks "leave us alone" was sarcasm...
Sure I see it was sarcasm but um... more like he was saying to aka jd, "we won't leave you alone, we will make sure that every single church gets discredited, that everyone who talks about God gets shut up, that whenever they hear more God talk, they will come like they have some radar around their necks just waiting to stick their tongues out at believers and get their kicks off of every person they intentionally hurt, for every job that is lost that was for God..."
Well you get the point. It wasn't a funny sarcasm Misha.
I think you misinterpreted Mark. I know he is evil dolphin hater, but still
What he was trying to say by this phrase is: You ask to leave you alone, and at the same time you (the church) are trying to infiltrate as many parts of our life as you can....
That is exactly what I was saying. I think it is funny that religionists are asking to be left alone, and then doing something like this. Funny. Sarcasm appropriate.
Although - Sandra has got god now and you can't make fun of that because it is just not funny.
God can't take a joke.
And as for all the other words she put in my mouth.......
Sure Misha, I would have believed that was what he meant last year but not since he is pretty sincere about his intentions to ridicule and poke fun and whatever else he has said about anyone who believes in God.
So, sorry he might fool you but he doesn't fool me. Seriously Misha, what kind of person sits on a religion forum, "knowing" for certain that religious people will come to talk about religions on a religious forum... waiting, yes waiting just to get in a good laugh, just to make someone one feel bad....
What kind of person does that? You might want to ask Mark. Or did this routine not happen in Russia?
Not sure why this version does not suit you Sandy, even after Mark himself confirmed that this is what he meant. It is still making fun of believers, so I just plain don't see any point in insisting on your interpretation which clearly was said to be wrong, sorry.
And what is the deal with Russia? You lost me completely here
I think Sandra has joined the "If you are an atheist, you must be a communist and then want to murder all the god-fearers. Just look what happened in Russia." Or something..........
Interesting that my thinking their belief in a god is silly makes them feel bad and I am only saying it to make them feel bad.
Yet when they say I am a fool for not believing, that is "for my own good."
There is a word for this. And it is the same word that prompted me to start this thread.
Well, she is breaking my heart, but we all have to make our own mistakes on our way, so I guess she needs this detour for something. I can only wait and hope she'll get better while I am still alive
Me too. But we all have to go our own way - and hopefully not piss off too many people who care about us along the way............
So I guess you were glad when you could say (for real), "Toto I don't think we're in Kansas anymore!"
Well, they got intelligent design into the schools in Kansas for awhile. Big flap over that one. That's how they got a Democratic governor--even Republicans couldn't swallow that comfortably.
How does one, exactly, get de-baptized? Sounds like a waste of time to me. If one doesn't believe in baptism, doesn't it follow that that baptism was ineffective and pointless? Why then, bother with this 'ritual'? A symbolic gesture I suppose. What a tragedy.
Apparently, you pay 3 pounds by credit card and download a certificate that says you are de-baptized.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Symbolic gestures are taken seriously by some. Not everyone needs 'the certificate', but it is proof for some. A bit like clearing clutter or tying up loose ends. And this symbolic gesture can be as much about making a statement, can make a person feel good. I personally didn't need to do this when I ceased being a Catholic, I aligned to something else and it was very clean. I'd be interested to know if this register of debaptized people goes to the church's administration and is acted upon in any way?
No. The church refuses to remove anyone from their register on the basis that this is "between the individual and god." They are not really interested in what people want - only what their god wants.
Although there was a successful case in Spain recently where a man took the Catholic church to court to have his baptism erased from their records.
Like it was mentioned in the article, hard for the decision to be made by the individual and god when you're 5 months old. So this is really about not being dictated to either overtly or subliminally. I like how people are seeing the difference and choosing to own their own destiny again. It's powerful stuff, all the jibes and sarcasm aside, it really is reclaiming your right to make choices according to your own truth. Like that.
Sandra doesn't strike me as an 'infiltrator' type, I've got to say. Those of faith do have a right to post and discuss.
They are not all stupid, fundamentalist, depraved, lacking in facts or philosophy. I could name quite a few spiritually informed authors and sophisticated thinkers I respect, ie. It's not as simple as A or B, black or white, Christian or atheist for many. Heck, I'd even say for most.
This whole conversation reminds me of the Family Guy episode I saw on Sunday
"I have license plate holder that says "Jesus was a liberal Jew". In Indiana I got milkshakes, eggs, toilet paper--all kinds of crap thrown on my car everywhere I went, even at home."
That's weird, because it's just true, not controversial!
Is this like un-bathing? A reverse shower?
Ya you can really put yourself in danger by saying Jesus was a Jew in some parts of the Untied States.
No, this is like making one symbolic gesture to symbolically undo another symbolic gesture that some one else made for you.
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