Uncertainty or Determinism?

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   TruthDebaterposted 14 years ago

   Do you believe that things in the universe is uncertain in what will happen, or do you believe in determinism that the future can be predicted in everything from the past and present? Which do you believe and why?
   
   Also, determinism leans to everything having a purpose, uncertainty has randomness.

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      wilmiers77posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      The universe obeys immutable physical laws. Yes, it is set on course from beginning and into infinity. Its purpose was created for the Sons of God who seek God and receive His Holy Spirit.This is our purpose.  Don't confuse our purpose and limitations with God's Will. In our efforts to define reality, we can only measure or observe so near. this is the uncertain principal in quantum mechanics. We can not observe reality without distorting it.
      We live in a discipline and the rules were set by our Creator. We have the free will to make choices, but there are consequences to each choice; hopefully good for you. Determinism wins out decisively over uncertainty.

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         TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Thanks. You say in our efforts to define reality, we can only measure or observe so near. Yet, you try to define others reality by claiming someone must receive a holy spirit to understand. Seems as if you are trying to define others reality even after admitting we can only measure so far. How are you sure your measurement is better than everyone else?

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      Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Suitable to being the determined course -action- to a predestined plan, certainly. Determination and chaos are both adjectives for fate with purpose, with or without a destination or completion.
      That is where necessity comes in.
      Light is cyclical, expressing endlessly itself:
      
      
      project-absorb-reflect
      proton-neutron-electron
      question-consider-answer
      ray-optic-wave
      
      etc, etc.

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         TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Thanks. I don't know if you are agreeing or disagree with me that cause can be purpose and purpose can be cause. Many have said they believe something requires thought to have a purpose. I'm glad you brought up fate, I also think fate and purpose are the same as determinism. So, do you believe free will is nonexistent since everything is dependent on something else, a cause, or purpose in determinism?

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      stephane86posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      In my view, determinism means that things act by the very necessity in-built in their nature. Bodies fall to the ground, because it is their nature to do so. Atoms collide together to form molecules because of the very logic of the forces that animate them. Determinism means that things will always act the same way, if put in the same conditions.
      
      However, uncertainty introduces an element of randomness. Even though things are directed toward the same ends, there can be change involved in their movement.
      
      Purpose is for me different from determinism because it involves guided and creative activity. Purpose means in my view, directed toward an end by an Intelligent Agent. In that end, the universe for the Christian and the believer is essentially purposeful. The sun rises in order to give warmth to the heavenly bodies and provide light to the children of men. Men have eyes in order to see. Men and women are created differently in order to pro-create and bring forth children, and so forth.
      
      As such, purpose is directed, it implies willful organization whereas determinism solely implies logic, intelligence and in that sense, the absence of freedom.
      
      In the last analysis, the universe for the believer, is free, since it is regulated by a spiritual principle, which essentially is the angelical cohort of God, that directs its harmonious and consistent march.
      
      Sincerely,

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      azdp1posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I don't believe there is some manipulating the invisible strings. I think things just happen to us, just as maybe light-years away, in deep space, a star goes nova. If I believed things were predestined, then I am in hell, because anything I ever wanted, I haven't been able to have, and I don't mean that in a totally materialistic way.
      People believe that God is good, and bestows goodness, but there is a lot of pain and horror in the world. Yes, the deer grazing in a field before a snowcapped mountain are beautiful, but a baby pig born in a factory farm lives a life so hellish, it can go insane before ever slaughtered.
      If I believe that there is destiny, then I have to believe whoever or whatever does that is evil.

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         TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I agree with many of your points. But can things really be random rather than predetermined when everything has a cause? Can something with a cause be random? I agree it would be nice to have free will rather than predetermined destiny, especially if that destiny sucks. Possibly free will is only in the mind, then again, the mind is the most important.

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            azdp1posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Good points. I like the idea of exploring all of this. I guess randomness appeals to me. If I say things had a designed cause, then how do I explain the bad fortune I have had? I have worked hard, taken risks, worked in bad environments, sucked it up, gone the extra mile, you name it and I am without a job. I am terrified.
            It seems anything I want in life, I cannot have, and anything I don't want, I get.
            If I credit a Creator, Prime Mover, whoever with this, they aren't looking too good. Purpose can't enter the equation then, because they are trying to take me down.

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               TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Thanks, I am enjoying the conversation as well. It makes my head want to explode. I think randomness appeals to me an many more because it represents freedom. If something is deterministic, it is determined or governed by it's cause. I can't answer your questions,  but I do think they were still determined rather than random. I have bad luck as well, no matter what I do at times. All I try to do is imagine life being a test in which I die maintaining my sanity, while learning as much as possible. If things are already predetermined, we can't change a thing as of free will. If we do have free will of mind, it seems logical to keep working as hard as possible expecting a random change of luck or fortune.

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      Pearldiverposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      What is certain here is:
      
      That you haven't written any hubs (under your entity) yet you have several dredging threads open.
      
      The sooner the rules for non contributors change here the better!
      
      

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         TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I see non contributions as you who simply troll to other forum threads with nothing of value to add but controversy. Who is really more destructive to the forums?
         
         How are you so sure to assume and jump to conclusions that this isn't research for my first hub?

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   Jeramiposted 14 years ago

   Would you not think that the destiny of our sun has already been determined?
      I would think that everything in the universal scheme of things, the conditions necessary for stars going super nova, etc have already been set in place. I doubt that there is anything that we are capable of changing some to these things.  We get to play with the little stiff.  And some times we get to mess up some big stuff like the oil leal in the Gulf; or was that destiny also?

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   wildernessposted 14 years ago

   As Jarami points out, we accept determinism if painted with a broad brush.  The sun will die one day, but which day is uncertain.  If I drop a rock it will fall with a particular acceleration, but will I drop it all?  Your concept of determinism could be said to be the basis of most science discovery; the past actions "determine" the next identical action.
   
   However, determinism in no way indicates purpose.  Cause perhaps, but not purpose.

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      TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks. If you are determined to drop a rock, isn't that rocks purpose or determinism to fall? Purpose being the past actions that cause the present or future actions. If gravity's determined to keep planets in orbit, isn't gravity's purpose to keep the planets in orbit?

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         wildernessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Semantics raises its head.  You seem to use the word "purpose" where I use the word "cause".  My purpose (to me) might be to see the rock fall.  When I release it I no longer counter the pull of gravity, which then "causes" it to fall.  Inanimate objects cannot have a purpose to their actions, only a cause.  Just semantics.

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            TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Still not getting how you reject gravity's purpose as to keep planets in orbit or grounded. If it had only random actions without purpose, it would be unmeasurable or unpredictable.
            
            Why can't inanimate objects have purpose? Isn't a vehicles purpose to transport?

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               Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Seems to me that  ....A animant object can have a purpose, if its being where it is  causes a desired effect, and was intentionaly PUT there.
               
                 Such as our moon.
                 If it was thoughtfully PUT where it this; it has a purpose.
               controlling the tides.
               
                 It it JUST happened to arive where it is, it then has caused a desired effect.
               
                  But I could be wrong.

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                  TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  That is very interesting what you brought up about purpose requiring thought. What is so ridiculous that the universe didn't require thought to create life with thought?

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                     Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     This my friend is the basic argument.
                     
                        What caused the Big Bang? 
                     In the beginning moments; Did it already have an inevitable outcome? 
                       How many ways was possible for the universe to have unfolded?
                     
                       I would think that given the available materials and energy being focused in the manner that it was, at that first moment, Most all things were predetermined; … At least as far as the big picture is concerned.

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                        TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Would it make sense for only the big things to be predetermined and not the small things? Wouldn't this contradict the big being predetermined if the small wasn't?

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                     azdp1posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     The thought thing, good point.
                     But what if the universe, in some form, always was? What if IT was eternal, infinite, etc.?
                     If there is a God, then I must hate him, because his "Plan" for me is evil. If this reality is God's "Plan", then I must hate him. It is easier to say he isn't there.
                     
                     Because things happened, nothing necessitates we put an intelligent cause behind it.

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               wildernessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Indeed a vehicle's purpose is to transport - it was built for that purpose.  You have me there. 
               
               A rock, gravity, a tree, a volcano - none of these has a purpose.  Purpose is either designed in or being used in a design.  A bird may carry a stick to it's nest, where the purpose of such action was to build that nest.  But there is no design in a rock, gravity, volcano, etc.  The volcano may erupt as a result of pressure and temperature, but there was no purpose as there was no design even by such as a bird.
               
               Jarami rather expresses my concept - a purpose requires intelligence, no matter how rudimentary.  No intelligence, no purpose; just cause and effect.  Purpose requires intent, and the force of gravity has no intelligence and therefore no intent.  Just cause and effect.
               
               As I say, basically a matter of semantics, unless you want to argue that every particle in the universe, every photon, every bit of energy, etc. has enough intelligence to intend to do something.

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                  TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  One of the definitons of purpose is "determination". This was found at multiple dictionaries. What is the difference in determination and determinism? Gravity determines the particles coming together or not. We both know that determining things purpose is subjective. One could say a trees purpose is to create oxygen. Other thing may have a purpose that may be unknown and called random without purpose. Is the sum greater than the whole, or the whole greater than the sum?

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                     wildernessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     The one definition of purpose I looked at was: "Intending to do something; determination" - multiple usages of the word determination are in use here.  The purpose definition indicates an intent (as do others) with determination being a state of mind.  Determination in this context has nothing to do with determinism.  Determinism is the belief (very simply put) that there is a fixed and unchangeable timeline of events from the big bang to the end of time.
                     
                     One can NOT say the purpose of a tree is to create oxygen, unless one has intentionally planted and grown the tree for that purpose.  A tree without a guiding intelligence to "produce" it has no purpose as it has no intent.
                     
                     Other things may have a CAUSE that may be unknown and called random although it is not.  Very very little in the macro world is truly random - even flipping a coin or rolling dice is not random - just close enough to it for our purposes.
                     
                     Indeed purpose is subjective - as I say it takes an intelligence to make a purpose.  But intelligence cannot assign its own purpose to some act or thing that the intelligence did not affect.  You may push a tree down over a road for the purpose of blocking the road, but if the wind blows the tree down in the same place the wind did not have the same purpose - it did not have a purpose at all even though it was the cause of the tree falling.
                     
                     A rather uncomfortable discussion for me as I am not a "determinist", but rather believe in free will without evidence of such, much as a Deist believes in their God without evidence.  It keeps me happier to think I have free will and can affect my own life, yet here I insist that everything (in the macro world) has a cause.  Perhaps our brain, operating on the subatomic level as it does produces non-deterministic thoughts being caused solely by it's own operation.  Or so I rationalize it!

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                        TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Thanks, I am enjoying our discussion. I want to pick up on the last part. I agree that I would like free will rather than a deterministic fate that is already planned. Instead of proving the deterministic, how would you prove something random? Is anything random or is all deterministic?

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      wilmiers77posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Man's intervention in the universe of set rules made by our Creator equals purpose coming into a clear view. We either talk with God and study His Word or bump heads with Him in hard-knocks scenario. One way or another, God will get His point across.

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         TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         So those you believe are evil, do you think God gave them a predestined purpose to be evil? If all things are already determined rather than free will, why not create all good rather than some evil? In deterministic, we have no free will if all of our actions are already determined.

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         azdp1posted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Hmm, some of us have done that. I was once a truth-seeker. I read a lot of books, did a lot of studying, talking to others, exploring on my own, and came back to square one. No one knows more about a god than anyone else, because no one has any more information than anyone else.
         
         No God ever contacted me.
         
         No one holds God accountable for evil. But if he did create everything, and this is his "Plan", then he wants evil.

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      kessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      all things are because of TRUTH....
      
      Know Truth you then Know all things and their order.
      
      There is absolutely NO past and future in life, there is Just the present which is eternity.
      
      This age is a journey from the nothing into all things.
      We see things as past and future simply because we do not yet know ......TRUTH.....

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         TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Thanks. If there is no future, how is there eternity? Isn't eternity the future from the present? Why don't we know TRUTH and what do you think it is?

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   ahorsebackposted 14 years ago

   Life and all it's events are just that , no cause , things just happen , I believe , some people are rich , some poor , some live lives of happiness  or tragedy , that doesn't stop mankind from wondering though does it?

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      TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks. If things are random without cause or purpose, why is any action or observation always caused by a thought? Isn't it the thoughts purpose to determine the observation and actions?

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      wildernessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I would disagree.  All "happenings" have a cause even if we can't find it.  A hummingbirds wingbeat might be the origination of a hurricane at a particular time and place.
      
      The rich man is rich for a reason.  He might have inherited it, might have worked hard and made the right decisions, might have bought a lottery ticket, but there is a reason he is rich.  The cause might be from within (good decision) or from without (victim of a DUI), but there is a cause.
      
      I was a safety director for 22 years and finally had to accept that concept.  I never saw an accident that was not preventable - it was caused by something or someone.  There ARE some, I believe, but even those have a cause.

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      wilmiers77posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      There is a difference between unpredictable and random. If one can not accurately predict an event, than to him it was random.
      
      Thoughts have a predisposition and a present disposition which causes a decision; the decision has been predetermined' and the results of your decision has been predetermined. Original thoughts and new creations by anyone usually doesn't hold up under close scrutiny and rigid evaluation.
      
      Einstein stated that all that counts can not be counted, but all counts.

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         TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I disagree. Random is unpredictable. This is why casinos make so much money. The create random odds of winning, unpredictable odds. I agree that anything can subjectively seem random. I disagree that thoughts and actions are predetermined, there is always randomness and changes in thought patterns that can change the persons brain and actions. The brain is plastic rather than fixed.

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            wildernessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Not so, Truth.  Random is indeed unpredictable, but casinos make money because the odds are definitely NOT random.  They are very carefully set, with the probability of winning very slightly in the casinos favor.  It is even checked periodically by the gaming commission.  The few games (a poker table for instance) where odds are not in the casinos favor (can't be - they don't even play) the casino takes an outright cut of the pot. 
            
            If I might ask, though, what causes the randomness in thought patterns?  varying electron speeds on nerve pathways due to temperature differences?  What caused the temperature to change?  New neural pathways?  Why did they grow?  How can it be random?  Or is it just unpredictable given our current state of science?

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               TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               You ask excellent questions, many impossible to answer. I would like to get your thoughts on evolution. Evolution claims random mutations, what does this mean? That they are truly random or that we don't know what causes them? It seems like most everything has a cause leaning to everything being deterministic, so how is there such a large population that believes in life being random?

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      azdp1posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I have become to think this way.

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   TruthDebaterposted 14 years ago

   Those that do believe everything has a cause or purpose as determinism, do you believe the future is already predetermined by the past and present? Or do you believe randomness makes it impossible in predicting the future?

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   Jeramiposted 14 years ago

   Just a thinking out loud moment.
   
     We do not have total controll of our thoughts, as modern medacine proves. Take a pill and your emotions chance and your thought patern changes with it.
   
      Everything in your body is relative to each other.
      Your immediate enviroment is relative to you body and mind.
      The things we eat, drink and think affects our body.And by doing so affects our mind.
   
      Free will can be said to be "the" creative abilities as God is said to have, only in a smaller portion. Sense we are all doing it, these creative abilities somewhat cancel each other out.
   
      If we could all unite with one purpose in mind there is no telling what might happen??
   
       Like I said; just thinking out loud.

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   TruthDebaterposted 14 years ago

   Alright, there are enough proving determinism exists, now prove that random exists. If everything has a cause, does random exist?
   
   If no randomness, no free will, correct?

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      Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Randomness is within the consciousness. Any parameter or instance of thought is titled sporadic, random, chaotic until a conclusion is accepted. Randomness is choice, having necessity. Free will is constant, having no necessity. They are not the same thing.

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         TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         How is randomness having choice or necessity? If it is random, you have no choice in what determines it. How can free will be constant, but with no necessity? Why would it be constant if it wasn't necessary? If everything is determined by a cause, how is there free will from that cause?

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            azdp1posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I agree. Random is a roll of the dice,  a toss of the coin. Perhaps there are mathematically predictable outcomes, but with the universe, there are too many variables that can be put into the equation to affect things. I think the same thing happens in life. So really, there is no free will, you just have options based on the things that surround you. But everything is not an option, nor do we have the choice to choose many of those options.

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               azdp1posted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Gee, my posts are not falling under some of the posts I want to reply. Randomness!

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               TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Thanks AZ. Does our past and present really determine the future or is the future plastic like our minds? I think we all can get close to the conclusion that all of the big/planets are deterministic. Possibly there is still randomness in the mind of how we can change thought patterns in collecting new thoughts aside from what we are programmed with. Of course how we see or sense determines how we feel or react, but can we change how we see and sense giving us free will? If we change our programming, wouldn't this be considered random from the program?

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                  azdp1posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  I think we can choose how we want to react, but initially, we just experience our own emotional response. I think some are able to deaden that by other things, or become less shocked, let's say, because of exposure.
                  
                  The big variable in the equation is God. If there is a God, it changes everything, because supposedly, a God would do his own will anyway.
                  
                  If there is no god, X becomes randomness. If X is not randomness, what else could it be?

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                     TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     I agree with the equation. Could it be both determinism and randomness?

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                        azdp1posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        I think so...at least my opinion. Either will or no will involved.
                        To me, that's why trying to find God is so important. If God is a force, not a being, then it's not a will, but a set of universal laws governing things, such as the four forces.

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                           TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           Maybe this works the same way when a religious person "believes" they have found God in their mind. It gives them that faith of certainty without waiting on science. I don't know.

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                              azdp1posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              Good point. I never did "faith" well. It felt like pretending. To me, the truth exists without my, or anyone else's spin on it. The truth is objectively independent.
                              
                              I wonder, if the truth really is...because no god meets us halfway, it is THE sign there is none.

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                                 TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 I agree that the truth is objectively independent. Modern physics and mechanics seem to suggest that the truth isn't there until we observe it there. I was before thinking all was only subjective, but I am beginning to change my mind that most is objective by determinism. But I think it could be possible to change determinism though awareness. I think awareness allows us to change our program or pattern. When we change the program or pattern, I think this possibly adds randomness that could be different from our previous decisions. I don't know about meeting God, but maybe when we meet an objective understanding, it will be an equivalent.

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                              azdp1posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              To me,  all the stuff in the mind doesn't work, because my mind can give me just what I'd like to see. I choose to think God would communicate in a nonambiguous fashion. It would make no sense for him to put some thoughts in someone's mind, how could they really truly know it's not their own mind? Too confusing to me.

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                                 TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 I don't know, I agree, it could drive a person insane. I think maybe when some religious people have connected or positive thoughts, they relate them with God. When they have negative or depressed thoughts, I think they relate them with evil or the devil. I haven't seen many people saying God put evil thoughts in their head unless they were trying to get off on insanity for a crime. When they claim the good thoughts, they get praised.

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                                    azdp1posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    God could fix it all. He could stop playing cosmic hide-n-seek and let us know if he is there.
                                    It would solve it all. The very fabric of our existence.

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                                       TruthDebaterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       I can't answer that, but it could be a she, or them, or none. If a God did reveal themselves, I think we would possibly no longer have free will of mind, if we have it now. Now we have free will to believe as we want without conclusive evidence leaning either way. This leads us to explore more and more to find the answers. If the answers were given, would we need to keep exploring?

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