Creationists of all stripes (with their literalist view of the Bible) like to enunciate that Adam and Eve were created by God exactly in his own image. In tne process He imbued in them the concept of a unitarian God (one God and no other) as well as the aptitude to make their own individual decisions(free will). Creating something in your own image is to say the least one supreme act of vanity... but then creating something with the same vainglorious streak as you do, that would be the ultimate act of futility. The vanity that all humans possess ( it was intellectual vanity that led to Einstein's formulation of his now famous equation E=mc2 , and it was political vanity that led the country's leaders at the time, to go ahead with the practical application of that equation to.... the atom bomb) could lead to their eventual extinction in multiple nuclear fireballs.
Evolutionist of all types (with their generalist view of their own bible i.e. the earth's fossil record) like to enunciate that what led to the "big bang" may have been Divine Intervention or some kind of supernatural force but what followed thereafter were all serendipitous and synchronycistic events including the formation of the planet earth and all its inhabitants including the late comers i.e. humans. Evolution (with it's simplistic mantra "adapt or die" ) posits that man has to adapt to be able to survive as a specie. In the long and complicated process of adaptation humans might become a bionic-ized and robot-ized version of their previous selves. Would they still call themeselves humans when that happens? Another example of an act of futility.
The concept of God and evolution are not mutually exclusive in the sense that both manifested acts of futility... the creation of man. In the final analysis all acts of vanity and serendipity ultimately are acts of futility.
I'm so sorry could you please repeat that, I couldn't hear you
Are you talking to me?... Please, Kimberly stop associating with folks like earnestshub et al. . Anyone listening to their bombast could lose their hearing. HHmm I think I'm too late... you're now permanently devoid of your audiologic function.
I"ve been following the comments in this thread.
Seems to me that all of you are just offering opinions which are worth about a dime-a-dozen.
At this point in our "evolution," the finest minds are but doing the same.
We are such an immature and ignorant species that, at best, all we can do is try to make meaning out of the little we've learned and think we understand.
If we destroy ourselves, or bring our species to the point of extinction, one can only place the blame on the reason so many other species have 'bitten-the-dust:" we were not able to adapt.
Devolution? If we are reduced to a level of living that emulates stone age life, why would that be deemed devolution? It would simply be a dip in the evolutionary processes. Man has experienced near extinction before. We are probably nearing that point in our evolution again.
If we succeed as a species, there is no doubt that contemporary man WILL create new human life forms and will eventually involve into a species that will include, in his determination to survive, every aspect of his unlimited imagination.
We may have about another billion years to exist. The possibility that we may be here, exists, but the probability, in my mind, does not.
You sound very down with all your talk of futility...bad day?
Here's a smile...
Bad day?.. nah.. I'm actually having the best days of my life. The post was not an expression of personal angst but a philosophical discussion of the conundrum : Was it God or was it Evolution that created humans...and was man's creation an act of futility by either one?... answers to these questions obviously would depend upon your personal beliefs.
Applying human emotions to a coincidental natural occurrence renders the question almost unanswerable.
"Futility" implies something that was intended. Evolution suggests no such thing and your ignorance of what "evolutionists" think pretty much makes it plain where your beliefs lie.
Evolution produced humans, but - what makes you jump to the conclusion that we are anything special or even that there was an attempt to achieve something? We will either adapt to changing conditions or die out. The same as all life on this planet.
Life is "futile" if you assume some purpose outside of being alive.
Evolutionists believe that life started on earth by pure
serendipity... and that's the point of the second part of the title of my post. Since you are an evolutionist, you can tell me if I am ignorant on that point. However human life on earth started i.e. created or evolved, the fact that man may become extinct as a specie via self-destruction or self-devolution into another life form is what I was drving at. And there lies the futility of it all.
I already did.
Why is it futile?
What was the unrealized goal?
This means life is futile.
What purpose would be useful?
Good questions...do you consider life futile because you won't be around to see it evolve furthur?
Do the goals you set forth in the here and now seem unattainable? Perhaps man will eventually reach out to the stars, overcome the need for fossil fuels. Extend life-spans...the only limits are the imagination.
Do you wish to discuss it as a creationist or evolutionist?
The unrealized goal is the continued existence of the specie in perpetuity. Evolution drives each specie to propagate itself by maintaining the same basic form it has evolved into most successfully, and not devolve into another altogether different life form. That God created man (according to creationists) but in so doing gave him "free will" only for man to discover the secret of the atom and its potential for destruction including man's is an act of futility. For evolution to have produced all living creatures( including humans) only for these creatures to devolve into another altogether different life form is an act of futility.
Now if you are telling me that your life has no meaning beyond the fact that you breath, eat, sleep, defecate, urinate and procreate, then it is no different than the life of a rodent that goes scampering in the back alleys of your house.
Some say that science is giving us more knowledge than ever before and soon we will have all the knowledge and technology necessary to create and control life
Others say that religion is undegoing an evolution. They say that culturally , we are between one creation story and the next and that soon the common creation story will be THE STORY, the one that tells us whou we are and where we are.
Perhaps there is an emerging convergence between science and spiritualism, a merging of scientific understanding with a reverence for the universe, a reverence for all life...a knowing that we exist within the web of all being.
No. Not really. The Creation story has never changed. But nice try. Exactly what religion has a reverence for the universe and all life?
Knowing we exist in the web of all being? What does that even mean?
It means that all,(even you Mr. Knowles) are a beneficent living being with all things connected--all crucial and sacred.
A necessary and beautiful part of the Eternal Great Dance.
Ah. Meaningless drivel. OK - gotcha. Surely you mean we are all above inside outside and around the death that is imminent for all - if we are thusly indicative?
Sacred? I really think it is time to buy a dictionary.
Okay how about this...Drivel you spout so much of that the word special comes to mind.
If you need a dictionary there are several online, but since you think you know the definition of life it would be useless to read a dictionary as you already think you know more then the people who write them.
Like I said.
If you have nothing to say - probably best to say nothing. Good luck with that.
"If you have nothing to say-probably best to say nothing " That drivel isn't even yours
Reused drivel is hooey.
Same to ya.
Now don't sulk...If I didn't answer your questions, I wasn't being mean...I just didn't want your negative energy.
Here's a better reason to vent: Science and religion don't have to be in conflict. They have different domains: Science seeks answers to the questions of what and how ; religion seeks answers to the question of why and meaning . Somtimes these two domains get interwoven and want to dominate the other particularly with the fundamentalists of either science or religion.
Have a day
Typical though. Well dun. Never sed nuffink and it my fault. Religionist.
I disagree. As we learn more and with exciting new discoveries we are finding that science and theology are actually not only co-exist,but actually cooperate with one another. The trick is in realizing that science does not define God,but that God defines science. I believe that they share the same domain,and we are just getting around to figuring that out.
I'm going to comment before I read any farther.
That sounds like the perfect scenario.
Lets take that concept a little farther.
Intelligence manifests itself.
We can create life ... And have cured death . No more death. No more hunger.
Every thing is great. EXCEPT There will come a day that new birth has to be prohibited all together.
And that isn't going to be much fun.
In order to maintain a very small portion of room for privacy
Someone gets to decide who is worthy to continue living, and who isn't.
Who gets to decide who goes and who stays.
So given a limited amount of space.. Is there such of a thing as a Perfect system ?
Does dieing inevidabily have to have its place in a perfect society ?
But in the above scenario .. God didn't do it.
That is the absolute best that science has to offer..
i agree with you- good thinking-sometimes when someone else thinks for you life is easy
i'm just curious. If we did evolve from monkeys,why are there still monkeys? Why have no other species started to evolve into higher life forms? It would be crazy to think that only one species is capable of evolution.
You may want to ask Mr. Mark Knowles that question . He is a know-all- kind- of- guy and an ardent evolutionist to boot, but he seems to think his life has no meaning, anymore than a rodent's life has no meaning, so why even bother. But If you do ask him and you get a gibberish answer, don't be surprised because that's how a rodent sound while scampering in the dark alley behind your house.
What a slimy stupid abusive reply!
Mark's capacity for logical thought scares you to bits doesn't it?
The sworn enemy of the religious fanatic..... a rational human being!
Nope it doesn't...... how could I be scared of a guy who thinks his life has no meaning or purpose. I know of a lot of ardent evolutionist, and I am one of them, but I certainly think that my life has purpose (beyond what I perceive and don't perceive) even if I believe that my specie (humans) evolved from a primordial dish, as with every other living things on this blessed earth. The know-it-all-kind of guy comment, I inferred from reading Mr. Knowles written biodata on Hubpages. The rodent inference was I must admit pointed, but I'm sure Mr. Knowles is man enough to take it. He certainly doesn't need you, earnestshub, to defend him.
No, it's just decency and honesty that I am defending.
Can you do me a favor and read from the very top of this post and scroll down the conversation that Mr. Knowles had (regarding the topic I posited) mostly with luvpassion. Can you tell me in all honesty if Mr. Knowles treated her with common courtesy and decency? I don't think so.He resorted to name calling and was very condenscending... characteristics of someone who is so enamored of his self-perceived brilliance that it blinded him of the fact that other people may have something intelligent to say about a topic. You are being dishonest if you tell me that you read the whole script before shooting darts in my direction implying that my reply to him was abusive and slimy and stupid. And he certainly was not being decent with luvpassion in his conversation with her. I certainly did not take it gently when he called me ignorant.
Why? weren't you already aware of that?
If someone on the forums engages in what you perceive to be a personal attack, report the post and move on. Responding with name calling will result in a forum ban, regardless of whether you feel it was justified by a previous conversation.
I can of course suck up any amount of personal insults - I know that is what people who believe in god tend to do. It must be very frustrating wandering around not being able to understand anything, but desperately needing an answer to the unanswerable.
But - please - I pride myself on clear communication. Where is this gibberish? If you - as you seem to do - have some compelling evidence of a meaning to my life that you can show me without being a condescending hypocrite or resorting to some religious garbage - I am all ears.
I love my life, enjoy it fully and delight in the natural world. I also spend a good proportion of my time helping other people and generally living - which is what I consider to be the "meaning" to my life.
But - no - I do not consider myself any more important or special than a rodent. I have just evolved the ability to be aware of my own mortality. It could just has easily have been a rodent instead of a monkey that developed that facility. Maybe will be next time - who knows? Take all the rats away and you would be wishing them back pretty quickly.
Dear me. What a dishonest attack you make. I take it you are a Christian?
A Eureka moment For you Mr. Knowles.. you finally admitted to the fact that your life has purpose and meaning.
"I take it you are a Christian?" A silly question if you ask me Mr. Knowles. Since we are on topic of asking silly questions here are two that may be silly to you: What is it about people with religious belief that riles you and your acolytes so much? What is it about their religiosity that palpitates your heart, wrenches you gut, boils your blood, breaks your bone, and ultimately bends your mind to the point of rupture, leading you to irrational, illogical, ill-mannered expressions of your ill-conceived, self-perceived intellectual superiority?
Ah, I see my question has already been answered.
I was kind of sending it his way. I get a kick out of people who firmly believe in something, strongly disagree with you, and yet have no foundation,one way or the other. All too often we dissect the question instead of accepting the answer.
Besides, if he really did believe that his life had no meaning, then he would have nothing to lose by believing in God,right?
what proof do you have for evolution? I would love to hear an intelligent arguement from the other side.
Just a statement for no real reason. Mark Knowles contributes reasoned and well thought out comments to these discussions, if his intolerance of stupidity grates a bit it is probably becasue of hte thousands of threads by lesser people asking the same dumb questions with the same lack of backing or thought.
I have only been here a few months and I find the level of christian argument infantile and pethetic, there is a case for defending christian beliefs, right or wrong, but nobody in the forums makes it with any clarity or intelligence. You are going to get trashed by Mark every time in these stupid subjects so get used to it.
".....thousands of lesser people asking the same dumb question?....WOW.. where do you guys come from? From the Obama school of arrogance and hubris?
Gee I'm surprised to see Obama in here. What's wrong with Obama? Is it that he is black or educated?
Oh don't give me that racial stuff earnestshub... black and Harvard educated has nothing to do with being arrogant and hubristic...just look at you and Mr. Knowles and alternatepoet.
What's wrong with them? Are they black and educated too?
Your rot is showing!
def out of the park!
hot dog anyone?
Spoken by a true Jungian... whatever that means. Freud is twirling in his grave. Frankly my rot is nowhere near as stinky as your rot.
What the hell has Freud to do with it?
You know nothing of psychology either do you?
HHmmmm....looks like you just can't stop delivering your zappy-zippy one liners that are totally devoid of wit and grit; Nippy-nappy comments that neither lacerate nor eviscerate.
But to answer you questions.....I must admit Psychology?Psychiatry were never my favorite subjects in Pre-Med/Medical school respectively. But what little I know of Psyschology generally, and Jungian Psychoanalysis specifically is enough to tell me that you are a Freudian in Jungian clothing. If I remember right, Freud and Jung, who were close collaborators initially, parted ways on the subject of the Psyche's primal driving force, Freud believed and thus emphasized the physical/anima/sexual nature of the primal driving force. Jung based his principles on man's inate humanity, spirituality, and yes religiosity.
In terms of his belief system, your intellectual idol, Mark Knowles is more Freudian than Jungian. So I could not understand why you, a self advertised Jungian could be in the same intellectual bed as he is. Dishonesy perhaps? hypocrisy maybe?
And Oh by the way, a Psychatrist friend of mine who is not into Psychobabble just reminded me that Jung in the sunset of his life and career said" Thank God I am Jung and not a Jungian."
I read you hub about your old geezer/greek neighbor and surprise surprise... I liked it.
Glad you liked the hub I rest my case on your scant understanding of Jung. Jung was always in to others being post Jungian.
He never claimed to know it all, and encouraged his students to continue his lifelong pursuit of the self while always building empirical evidence in support of any claims or theories.
He was never a believer in an external god, and as his work strongly shows, he knew lots of gods, all psychologically archetypical.
As for your opinion of my comments. Guess what? I don't give a rats nether-end!
When you say that he does not believe in an external god,, and he believed in a lot of gods, all psychologically archetypical, that runs counter to his being enveloped by a family belief system that involved believing in a unitarian God. Agan if I am not mistaken his immedtiate family (from his grandparents, parents and relatives, were all believers in the spiritual and religious. Did Jung actually, in his exploration of various archetypes, dissociate himself and therefor rejected the belief systems of his immediate family who I assumed had a great impact on his intellectual growth and development.
Once again, you make the assumption that he followed his family's religiosity to the same conclusions. He did not.
Religion, especially the trinity are seen as guides to understanding myths archetypes and psychosis among many other things, but he did not conclude that there were any external gods in the religious sense in any way.
All the gods of Greek mythology serve the same purpose in Jungian psychology as do the bible and quoran and their forefather Judaism.
By arrogant I guess you mean they don't agree with your opinions?
You're here!.....and Kimberly too...hhmmm I guess earnestshub did call the cavalry. I have always wondered what Einstein thought of Darwin's epochal book? Have you?
Still not reading anything other than "the good book" tk?
Man: God's final act of vanity or Evolution's vital act of serendipity
Where did the Creator-God Allah YHWH state that man is His final act of pride?
How and on what basis one could surmise that man is evolution's act of destiny?
Is evolution expressive in Word?
I was posting an idea..that you may agree or not agree with. The main objective is to intiate intelligent discussion, not to push a certain belief system.
Would this be that "intelligent discussion?
"Oh don't give me that racial stuff earnestshub... black and Harvard educated has nothing to do with being arrogant and hubristic...just look at you and Mr. Knowles and alternatepoet."
We all share one thing. We disagree with your opinion of yourself and the sky fairy myth that animates you.
I find it exciting that a lot of well-informed people like yourself disagrees with my opinions. Keeps the adrenalin going.. A pity that not a lot of folks share the same sky-fairy myth that animates me. Now that you are starting to a least scratch the surface....i must tell you that your arguments are still not the lacerating eviscerating weapon I would expect a true Jungian to brandish on ignorant folks like me.
I'm sorry if I seem blunt to you. I find that with a lot of my American friends.
I have spent some time working in America and noticed that some found me and other Australians to be blunt about many things.
Maybe I can learn how to avoid saying things directly, but I doubt it. It is a bit culturally ingrained to just say it as I see it.
I only express what I believe sincerely; you or others may try to push to their side, if you can; i am always open to and for Truth.
Did I hear my name mentioned - and I don't even recall contributing to this thread - yet !
I tried to read from the beginning but the whole thing seems to be a mess of yah-boo-hiss.
The OP has woven the question up in such unneccesary wordage that there is not real question to answer, this leaves several questions and so the merry go round.
SERENDIPITY - is hoisted as a red herring on many occasions, usually by people who failed in Divinities, this is because they cannot quite grasp the 'significance' beyond the end of their noses.
It has been explored in several movies and even kids can see through the holes in the whole idea, so the movies were mediocre and unconvincing. Now if Hollywood can't get it over convincingly I don't see it being done in these forums.
Applying human characteristics to a mythical being is taking a step back to pre-writing, its all been done in the Odyssey and elsewhere, most grown-ups now know there are no gods puppetting us around, some like to think that they have all kinda compressed into a single super god who has retreated so far that there is NO evidence of him in any way shape form or record. In their VANITY some people like to imagine they have some kind of phone contact with this imaginary entity who talks to them inside their heads, by ego-maniacs, in riddles, signs, omens and other superstitious twaddle that has all been clearly explained by better minds than reside in these forums.
If people are going to try to post what looks like academic writing then it is a good idea to get it right at least, don't over-use long words, don't try to construct clever sounding sentences if you don't have the ability as they just look tortuously stupid, and try to stick to one point at a time.
If you consider my initial post as academic writing.. you must be out of your mind. As simple as my mind works most of the times (after all I work with children, the most simple minded and yet most observant of all God"s or Evolution's creation), the post was meant to not-too-subtly infer that all beings and their actions if not given meaning or purpose are all acts of futility. A point that some of you, especially Mr. Knowles totally missed.
Talk about unnecessary verbiage.. your post is an excellent example of it.
Mock academic I said.
And an argument against the religious despair that you are trying to pass off as futility.
And you have no response.
Religions have been overcome by reason and facts, whinging about futility that you see in others from your unsustainable position is just that - whingeing. You present no coherent argument just a load of blather.
And you present a coherent argument? Please... I've seen more coherence in the actions of ants in their colony than what you are proselytizing.
Now just because I am not a big fan of your prose does not mean that I can not appreciate the artistic talent that went with your poems. Excellent works of poetry....lucid, luminous.. and levitating. Bravo.
I dont see it as an act of vanity at all. Since the intelligence of our being is self existant and an endless entity without begining or end, God made the most charitable decision by giving us bodies and allowing us to experience mortality, to develop and grow in knowledge. he created us in his immage because he is the most advanced being in existence and he wants us to see our full potential to be like him. It was actually a realy nice thing to do.
I guess this would be the logical conclusion of a certain point of view. It takes a special ignorance of reality to get there but I can see how you could do it if you were mis-educated, indocrinated enough and unable to get together enough reasoning power to see through it.
I guess it's more logical to believe that for no reason at all billions of galexies all of a sudden appeared out of nothing all out of coincidence. And one day a monkey pooped out a human.
Nobody claims that it appears for no reason, just not the reason you would like to believe.
And your idea of a monkey popping out a humna is probably the reason you cannot get to grips withthe thinking. The idea of milions of years of slow change is hard to get, this is why flat-earthers can only imagine the world is 7000 years old, it is as far as they can think.
I like how when anyone disagrees with you, you automatically assume it's because they are too dumb to be able to comprehend the idea. It's sort of a dead horse, Have you considered switching to "your momma's so fat" jokes?
No - the reason people deduce that you do not understand the idea is from your comments that make it clear that - you do not understand the idea.
Sorry dude. I see you are showing us a photo of you ready to murder people. How very Christian of you. "Thou shalt not kill," has probably been crossed out in your version of the babble huh?
"Thou shalt not kill unless your children get free health care when you join the army."
Well let me assure you that I am solid with the idea but I'm not swallowing it.
Yes I was out there defending your freedom to speek freely, believe what you want to believe, and pursue happiness. You are welcome.
Alma 43:47 defend your families even unto bloodshed.
As someone who 'has been out there' killing people for all the wrong reasons - you have not been defending my freedom to speak one little bit. You have been lining the pockets of Cheney et al and causing untold havoc. It is your duty as a soldier to do what you are told, but it is your duty as a human being to question the why.
And yet another demonstration of your lack of understanding. You were doing no such thing and - honestly - I am shocked at how easily led you are. I guess the two things go well together. Murdering Iraqis for oil money is not defending my freedom to speak freely.
So let's hear what the resident North Koreans have to say about the issue............ Nothing? I'm shocked! Oh wait, they aren't allowed to talk to the outside world.
Then you are much older than I originally thought. And murdering Koreans in order to persuade the Commies to adopt our economic values is not protecting my freedom of speech either.
LOL that you can persuade yourself that fighting an economic war 6,000 miles from your home is defending your families even unto bloodshed.
I'm 33 dude. and if we weren't there, Korea would be one united country under good old kim Jong Ill, and then they would try to spread their commie agenda to the rest of the world.
Wow - you guys will buy anything won't you? Just what the doctor ordered. Free health care and you have been sold that you are protecting me from a commie threat 6,000 miles away to make sure my ipod is less than $100.
"Thou shalt not kill unless the cost of an Apple iPod goes over $100."
Ok lets pull the troops out of everywhere, send them all home and see what happens. Pull all of our nuke-subs out of the water and see who takes over.
Christian war mongering at its finest. Do you believe everything the Government Inc tells you?
"Thou shalt not kill unless the enemy has different economic values to you."
You know what you're right, disarmorment starts with America. Let's disband the whole military, dance around naked singing
"give peace a chance", cross our fingers, and hope that we can shake hands and be friends with everybody who hates us. LOL!
Yeah - you are right - let's not give peace a chance.
Nope, it"s too late I'm gonna go down to the submarine and defuse the bombs first thing tomorrow.
I had better brush up on my commie talk; Здравствуйте! Как поживаешь?
What was that about loving thine enemy?
Do you mean the Commies? But Mark that's why I'm brushing up on the Cyrillic alphebet. So I can get to know them better.
Dear me - if you lern it as gud as wot u lerned biology, I fink not.
Not sure the Koreans all speak Russian either, but I guess - in your 7,000 year old world where we did not evolve and we should not try and make peace with our enemies because we are peace loving - it makes a kind of sense.
Little wonder you joined the army. Are you still a private?
Oh yeah, this one too.
"The people of the Church are patriotic. In this time of preparation for eventualities which we all pray may not come to us, we people must do our full share. We shall confidently expect that no young man member of the Church will seek to evade his full responsibility. We feel assured that every young man will do his full duty, and live the precepts that guide the Church and its membership "in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."
-President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., counselor in the First Presidency.
If America pulled the troops out of everywhere their would be a massive drop in armament sales and it's economy would suffer.
Maybe the solution would be to convert all the military installations into environmentally sustainable fuel and technology centres.
Well got to go. Or as they say in Korea; 안녕히 주무세요! long live the dear leader!
As for Korea, well….Here is another one for "you" to consider; A real patriotic Church quote>>>>
March 19 1970, March Air Force Base, Father John Flarity, Maj. Gen. Commanding; Chaplin Core
This was Part of our Separation Briefing on returning from Viet Nam!!!!
I saved it on tape for prosperity. This was a real speech to the troops returning!
The Generals exact words were: Quote
"Gentlemen, welcome home. I know some of you are wrestling with what went on over there.
What brought you home, and why it had to happen?
I am here to tell you that God understands you and what happened to you. It was not your fault. The necessity of your actions, and the fact you were called to duty and obeyed raised your intentions with God. Following your Government, Gods government!
God knows your hearts and minds, and will let You forget all that has passed. He knows that the past 13 months were not real, and not intended for you as his child, and that you submitted yourself to your Government as Paul called all of Gods people to do in his letter. Following the true word. God's wishes!
God also knows you were provoked by non human acts from others, an enemy;( those people less human!) and he automatically forgives you for your actions; actions justified, done- in dutiful bounty!
For He understands and forgives honorable and necessary transgression.
Now Gentlemen, lets us receive Gods almighty blessing for a job well done, Please bow your heads and pray with me!"..... end quote
Yea, honor and duty means a lot when your Gun is bigger than their’s!!!!
first off i doubt whether in terms of war is Gods government, "Following your Government, Gods government!" Christians are to obey God first if the orders of government are contrary to the ways of God. People think God loves war, God loves justice and people, not war. Jesus is the dispensation now since all the territory is claimed, nations are settled boundaries established the time for war is over as far as the God of the bible is concerned.
God does not automatically forgive anyone.
I guess this is another catholic religion setting the example of what not to believe in again. Incorrectness of doctrine and false claims to the God of the bible.
Sorry you had to go through all that falseness. There are quite a few lies that preacher told you.
by Davidsonofjesie 7 years ago
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