Texas wants to edit the history books

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Mark Knowlesposted 14 years ago
Little did I realize, but the Texas Board of Education, after managing to get irrational beliefs introduced into the science classroom, by allowing critiques of evolution by non-scientists who believe an invisible super being created the earth in 6 days to be taught along side the actual science, are now trying to get the history books re-written to reflect chistianity in a more favorable light.

According to one of the reviewers, "We're in an all-out moral and spiritual civil war for the soul of America, and the record of American history is right at the heart of it."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124753078523935615.html

Dear oh dear.......
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  Davinagirl3posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Now, do you see why I want to home school?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Like I said - it depends on your motives. Most people seem to want to homeschool for the opposite reason.
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  Davinagirl3posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I want my child to be taught, not preached to. I am afraid that is where we are headed. I don't want my daughter to be afraid to speak her mind and question everything.
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  SparklingJewelposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  but whose to say what is being preached...why is it so hard for people to understand that people preach much more than religion...it is just too convenient to call religion talk preachy stuff...secular evolution and science is just another form of religion, and just as bad when it can't stand up next to another perspective on anything, especially from a God religion standpoint.
  
  KIds will figure out what they think according to many factors, not just their own or the parents. Why is creation such a bad perspective...when a person thinks that way about another person's perspective then they are just as bad as those they are accusing of doing the same thing.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Truth is the difference.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You know Mark, us always have undercover agents, and them always have bloody spies. Or their terrorists and our freedom fighters for that matter.
  
  The point is - motive is always the same - people want their kids to pick up their values, not the state mandated ones.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh for the love of satanic principals. of course that is not really funny.
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  Davinagirl3posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I live in Texas and they are taking away so much from our children, it is ridiculous. The public school system here is not academically competitive, to say the least.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ya, I hear ya. I thinks they want our children to be stupid. Over here in Cali. they take away everything from the kids and needy first...
  
  Go to a church and ask for help... yeah right. I tried that before.
  
  I think America dropped down to the bottom of the list since Bush's no child left behind act, for the stupidest kids in the world.
  
  Probably because, they wont pay to have good teachers, good classroom sizes, good learning material... did you know some school are using outdated books! ZOMFG!
  
  - if they did update them to reflect christianity, you would think they would include the number of wars in recent history to add to the pile of religious conflicts too.- but maybe that is just a dream.
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  Davinagirl3posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Texas is a beautiful state with nice people. But, its politics are so backward it is frightening. It's like Fox News incarnate!
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  drej2522posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  it's a little funny
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Kudos to Texas!
  They're just trying to correct some of the hogwash that WAS either changed or ignored by more recent liberal "educators". I put educators in quotes because so many modern "educators" are pseudo-educators feeding our children hog swill for history and social values.
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  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  "hog swill"?
  
  actually, what they are doing is taking out 75% of the world's history and literature and putting back stories culled from the Bible.
  
  here are one home-schooler's comments:
  
  "With traditional Christian textbooks, I generally don’t have to weed out information I would rather my children not be exposed to such as evolution, false religions and gods, mythology and fables. Romans 16:19 says, “For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.” Deuteronomy 12:30 tells us to, “Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise."
  
  how does this encourage critical thinking, or open-mindedness? if children aren't exposed to any other way of life, how will they successfully navigate through the world when they become adults?
  
  not to mention having huge gaps in their education and a wholesale ignorance of great literary works?
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soni2006posted 14 years ago
"now trying to get the history books re-written to reflect Christianity in a more favorable light"

hahahhaha
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Dame Scribeposted 14 years ago
Historians won't be happy with that, lol
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onthewritesideposted 14 years ago
What are they going to call the new class? "Myth"ory 101?
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Randy Godwinposted 14 years ago
Well, that may be better than having someone from Texas creating bad history from the top government job for eight years. LOL
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David Bowmanposted 14 years ago
Perhaps we should allow Texas to secede after all.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/1 … 87490.html
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Texas would make a good buffer zone for the border.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah build the wall on this side of Texas. Because they've just proven that white Texans are more dangerous to society than Mexican immigrants ever could be.
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lrohnerposted 14 years ago
Good thing the religious fanatics on here haven't found this thread yet!
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Uninvited Writerposted 14 years ago
Shhhhhhhh
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rebekahELLEposted 14 years ago
o.k. I just found this thread after reading that they did approve new revisions for the textbooks for the next 10 years.

the man in charge is in office until the end of the year, but he has been voted out.

as of march 13, this is what I found, just posted it on FB.

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/5245
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/1 … 98003.html

you will want to watch the video. this is absolutely crazy.

Thomas Jefferson is removed from being one of the great enlightenment thinkers and replaced with John Calvin.
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Rafiniposted 14 years ago
my kids have learned evolution & creation - creation was only mentioned in like one chapter while evolution went through the entire book! Even though I don't agree with evolution I am glad to see that creation has finally been "approved" to be taught alongside the theory of evolution.

Plus, this year my son learned about religions of the world in his History class. This is okay with me, because many world religions have had major impacts on the worlds history.

I should have included prior: Creation was taught at my kids school as a Theory.
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  Paul Wingertposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hmmm, geology, astronomy, chemistry, and phyics being taught along side creation ( an ancient story on how the earth was magically created in 6 days and included a talking snake). What's wrong with this picture?
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rebekahELLEposted 14 years ago
with these changes, it is clear the far right, religious faction of the board is imposing their religious, political bias to textbooks. it's not just about evolution and creation.
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cosetteposted 14 years ago
'k, this is very scary indeed...
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  rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  scary and just wrong.
  
  texas purchases most of the nation's textbooks and influences much of what goes into all of the textbooks throughout the country. college students in texas were protesting today.
  it's going to take more than college students.
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Pandoras Boxposted 14 years ago
So go ahead and tell me again about how the beliefs of others don't affect me and I oughtta just respect their beliefs and leave them alone.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Religion in school. What's next- the President sleeping with animals?

Who thinks up this garbage? Re-writing history to portray Christianity in a better "light" is absurd.

Christianity is what it is - a poorly thought out philosophy which was ill-conceived from it's inception.

How can anyone spin that to make it sound better?
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  Rafiniposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Can you deny the fact that many religions have played a major part in our worlds history? Whether or not you feel it was beneficial?
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  rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  did you watch the video of the man explaining his reasoning??
  this guy is nuts. was this on the news today or yesterday and I missed it? if you didn't read the article from the link, it's a must read just to see what they're doing.
  
  it's back one page. http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/18250#post883191
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  Rafiniposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am only going on the idea of teaching the theories of evolution & creationism, nothing more. Teaching Religion does not belong in schools. Period.
  
  I did mention my son learned about world religions, and I think it's okay just cuz religion has affected world history.
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Madame Xposted 14 years ago
This has very far-reaching implications. Texas is a huge market leader in the school-textbook industry. The enormous print run for Texas textbooks leaves most districts in other states adopting the same course materials, so that the Texas School Board effectively spells out requirements for 80 percent of the nation’s textbook market.

Texas has been reviewing and approving textbooks since shortly after the Civil War, and, periodically, the rest of the country notices the clout it has. The last time this blew up was in the early 1990s.
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Kenrick Chatmanposted 14 years ago
Another individual feeding the Texas "country bumpkin" stereotype. "You know that's just ain't right!"

Unfortunately I will have to relocate from my native state to a suburb of Chicago (Lisle, IL) shortly.
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Onusonusposted 14 years ago
This thread has been set up to breed hatred. Some athiests can be just as credulous as some Christians.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,461424,00.html
The bottom line is that the few loud people don't represent the whole organization.
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  Kenrick Chatmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm a Christian but I do not try to impose my views on others. I was born and raised in Texas. These individuals should be concerned with improving the quality of education in Texas especially the public school system.
  
  The Dallas Independent School District (DISD) has to be one of the worst public school districts in the nation. Several of this district best graduates struggle in college.
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  rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  the original thread was posted 8 months ago. I found it again tonight after I read the most recent news and I am not an atheist. it's not about hatred at all. it needs to be brought to the public's attention. imposing political, religious views in textbooks is wrong.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This is the danger of allowing believers to influence academic study in our public schools. If a person of Muslim or other faith attempted this, the Christians would have a fit.
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  rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  it would be an outrage, as this should be. I couldn't believe it when I read what they are revising.
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thisisoliposted 14 years ago
Religion belongs in religious education.

rewriting the history books to try and make it sound as though america was actually founded as a christian nation is appauling in what is meant to be a progressive nation.
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rebekahELLEposted 14 years ago
this is from the opinion page in yesterdays NYT.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/opinion/l16texas.html

"Conservatives who are scorning Big Government might well turn attention to Texas, which is about to require that a Republican fictional history be taught to children throughout the state. This is government mind-control of young students who do not know to contest it."

"The curriculum standards will now be published in a state register, opening them up for 30 days of public comment. A final vote will be taken in May, but given the Republican dominance of the board, it is unlikely that many changes will be made."
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  Kenrick Chatmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "Religious" Republicans in Texas are quite interesting. George W for example who started the unprovoked, futile Iraq War. I guess "Thou shall not kill" did not apply.
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  Daniel Carterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ouch. Methinks you do hit too close to the mark.
  Well put.
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  Madame Xposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "Unprovoked?"
  
  Oh, now I get it - rewriting of history . . .
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  Kenrick Chatmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How was it provoked?
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  how was it provoked??
  
  Come on Kenrick.. what about all those weapons of mass destruction they are JUST about to uncover??
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  Kenrick Chatmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I forgot about that Greek One... Those WMDs were quite provoking.
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  you are referring to Saddam's eyebrows obviously
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  Poppa Bluesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What you fail to realize is the UN was being denied access to possible sites where WMDs might have been hidden.
  
  This was a purposeful act by Hussein. Remember he was at war with Iran and he WANTED to perpetuate the belief that he had nuclear weapons.
  
  He was caught between a rock and a hard place. He didn't want it to be proved that he didn't have weapons but he had to appear like he was complying with the UN mandates.
  
  Bush too became caught up in his own rhetoric and left himself no wriggle room. Once he made the ultimatum, Hussein had no choice but to comply yet he couldn't.
  
  This wasn't just a failure of American intelligence, but a misinformation success by Saddam. Fact is, had Saddam complied and allowed the UN access to all the sites in question, we wouldn't have gone to war with him. However, had he done so, Iran just may have!
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  Madame Xposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, the voice of reason
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The UN was not leading the charge to get into Iraq..
  
  but you are right.. if Saddam had done the politically impossible and bare all, then George Bush might have not had the support to wage an unjustified war...
  
  despite the urging of the neo conservative war hawks that were bent on using 911 for their own objectives
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  Poppa Bluesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No but they were trying to carry out the provisions of a UN resolution that had broad international support.
  
  I still maintain, that if Saddam, had allowed access he would have removed the excuse for America to go to war. His only other choices were to cut a deal for himself and leave voluntarily, or face America's military might.
  
  Unfortunately for Saddam, he made the wrong choice.
  
  Sadly, for America, we took out an enemy of Iran, and in the years to come, we may find their influence in the region growing. Strategically destroying Iraq may not have been the best course of action.
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree that Saddam was a fool and he guessed wrong....
  
  but his mistaken assumption regarding the extent some in Washington wanted a fight doesnt excuse those who made the decision to go to war, nor does it justify the war
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  Poppa Bluesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The war WAS justified, even if it was wrong at the same time. Though we didn't have the same support we had in the first Gulf war, we did have international support.
  
  Hey, I didn't want the war either, and it cost the republicans, and our country dearly. Still, I would never vote for a socialist just because I didn't agree with a decision by our President. Those that voted for Obama because he wasn't Bush or a republican, did a real disservice to America.
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He was elected simply because he wasn't George Bush or any other Republican, I know, that's why I voted for him.
  
  Never again, never again.
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  Poppa Bluesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I wasn't thrilled about McCain either, BUT I couldn't in clear conscience vote for a democrat President when there was already a strong democrat majority in Congress. Besides, I listened to what Obama was saying and I knew where he would lead us. But what really irked me about Obama, was the fact that he stabbed a friend and supporter in the back in order to get his senate seat. She had intended to run for another office and gave Obama the opportunity to run for her seat, but when she saw that wasn't going to work out for her she asked him to step aside so she could run again and he blew her off!
  
  Loyalty shows character and in that case Obama lacked it, as well as the experience. I honestly can't see why anyone voted for him!
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am an independent so I vote for who I think has a clear vision. I was hoodwinked into believing Obama was a moderate so I voted for him. The media sold him as the future and I was stupid enough to buy into their trap.
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How come no one stands up and screams that Ted Kennedy "lied" about Iraq, or Hilary, or Kerry, etc.?
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  Poppa Bluesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That's true! Congress supported the effort.
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Because liberals are dishonest, otherwise they would never get elected.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yup.
  And because those people, especially any Kennedy, can do no wrong supposedly. Plus they deflect any opposition by counter-attacking before the right can get a word in. Like ____ Kennedy did the other day with his red-faced rant. (I can't remember his first name!)
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  They are brazen when it comes to their misdeeds, they know that most of their constituents will not hold them accountable. I can be considered liberal on some issues but if the issue circumvents our Constitutional rights I will become conservative real quick.
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  Daniel Carterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "Because liberals are dishonest, otherwise they would never get elected."
  —Padrino
  
  Now wait. I think you just contradicted yourself. A little flip-flopping, perhaps.
  
  So then, we might also conclude that not "all" liberals are dishonest, because you have admitted to being one at least on occasion.
  
  Just trying to help avoid generalizations, which don't seem to help much.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  Just caught this and had to laugh. That phrase "it isn't "helpful"" is one the libs use so often toward conservatives as a cautionary measure, as they themselves all the while are "helping" turn the USA into a third-world country.
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  Kenrick Chatmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sab,
  
  Because if you did not support this war, "you were unpatriotic". That's one advantage Obama had over Hillary Clinton. Obama did the right thing by not supporting this futile war since he was not scared of any potential, negative consequences (or was not concerned about getting reelected).
  
  Several nations were against the Iraq War from the start and were not sold by the WMD evidence presented by the US.
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  Kenrick Chatmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This war was not justified and as it turns out, there were no WMDs. This is what happens when you elect chickenhawks into office.
  
  Iraq war wasn't justified, U.N. weapons experts say Blix, ElBaradei: U.S. ignored evidence against WMDs
  
  http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/03/21/iraq.weapons/
  
  Iraq war was illegal and breached UN charter, says Annan
  
  http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/16/iraq.iraq
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  Poppa Bluesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes very nice articles written after the fact. Hindsight is 20/20.
  
  However shaky the evidence was, there was evidence, and there was support and Hussein refused to comply and allow access. There was no way to know for sure he didn't have WMDs, which is how Saddam wanted it.
  
  Again, I'm not absolving Bush. He continued to increase the rhetoric of war until he reached a point where he had no choice and had to follow through.
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "Iraq war was illegal and breached UN charter, says Annan"
  
  Is that the same Annan whose son was getting rich off under the table deals with Saddam?
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  Madame Xposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Um, 9/11? Ever hear of that?
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah... I think I remember??...
  
  wasn't 911 the terrible event that had absolutely NOTHING to do with Irag?
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  Madame Xposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Where's Irag?
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Irag was where all the WMDs where being kept.. cause they sure weren't in Iraq
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's where Jebus was born according to the Texas public skool kericulim.
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  Madame Xposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Dang! You learn sumpin' new everday
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Depends on if you're going by the republican version of history or reality.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, you've heard of 9/11.
  
  The latest Republican excuse for shredding the Constitution and thumbing our noses at the rest of the world.
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  Madame Xposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Unlike the latest Democrat excuse called "healthcare"
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, the civilized world is all atwitter at the prospect of the U.S. actually providing healthcare to it's citizens.
  
  Scary Stuff
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  Madame Xposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And the uncivilized world can't wait to see the end of the US Constitution
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "shredding the Constitution" wouldn't mean anything to you anyway, right?
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Of course it would TK...OJ... BJ...Hell, I can't keep up with all of your banning-induced name changes.
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  Madame Xposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Looking forward to celebrating?
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, the next 30 minutes should do it for the latest clone.
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "Of course it would"
  
  I thought it was just a loose collection of suggestions written by evil, racist old white guys to you, and that we shouldn't worry about adhering to its words or principles.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No (fill in the blank with your next name de plume),
  
  You have once again gotten it wrong.
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I guess you need to be more careful with your words then
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  Kenrick Chatmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes and Osama Bin Laden was the dictator in Iraq we removed from power. lol. The Republicans illustrated their national security intelligence with that maneuver.
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "How was it provoked?"
  
  Ask the Clintons
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  Madame Xposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  HA HA
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Are religious democrats in Texas not interesting to you?
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  Kenrick Chatmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Just individuals in power who use their "faith" to make bad decisions. You do know that Christians are a diverse group and do not agree with each other all of the time.
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Bad decisions are the ones you disagree with, right?
  
  All people of faith are informed by that faith in the decisions they make.
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  Kenrick Chatmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Bad decisions are bad decisions. Bush W probably had a reputation of a "country bumpkin" on a global basis.
  
  "A person, usually from a rural area, the south or small town; who speaks or behaves in a manner that indicates a lack of understanding of the ever changing, modern world. Country bumpkins tend to speak in terms of social overtones indicative of pre-civil rights America and characteristically speak in offensive terms without knowledge of doing so. A bumpkin is more ignorant than uneducated, though most are probably uneducated. Either way, educated or not, country bumpkins are neccesarily ignorant."
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  With a degree from Yale.
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  Kenrick Chatmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "A bumpkin is more ignorant than uneducated."
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Will Apseposted 14 years ago
Quoting from the Wall Street Journal referenced above

'The curriculum, they say, should clearly present Christianity as an overall force for good -- and a key reason for American exceptionalism, the notion that the country stands above and apart.

"America is a special place and we need to be sure we communicate that to our children," said Don McLeroy, a leading conservative on the board. "The foundational principles of our country are very biblical.... That needs to come out in the textbooks."

Anyone who believes their country is somehow better than every other is a menace to their own country and their neighbors.

Sadly, there is hardly a population in the world that can't be led into believing this- especially if they are less than perfectly secure in the value of their culture.

I mean what is Al Qaeda all about? What bolstered the horrors of European colonialism? What was Nazism about?

Dangerous men in Texas.
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  Poppa Bluesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not BETTER, but UNIQUE! Because the constitution says that our rights come from nature, and are bestowed upon us by the creator. No where else on the planet does that concept exist, and I see nothing wrong with mentioning that fact in a textbook. After all the founders came here FOR religious freedom and for the most part were Christians of one form or another. Should that be ignored? I don't think so!
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prettydarkhorseposted 14 years ago
This is sad, changing history for your own sake wow, Doesnt men do that always, reinventing HISTORY for their own sake!
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  Will Apseposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You're right, Pretty Dark Horse, we should all despair of men.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Pretty, you shouldn't be complaining about this as it is a perfect example of what people will do when they follow their belief systems.
  
  Notice that you didn't follow those beliefs yourself as you used logic and critical thinking to understand it makes no sense.
  
  See how that works?
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, but as a previous poster will soon chime in, critical thinking and a lack of slavish devotion to certain documents inevitably leads to Communism; then of course Hell.
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  Poppa Bluesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Again, you miss the point, it's not blind adherence to a DOCUMENT, it's recognition of the concept that YOU are born with rights, they are yours because you exist, NOT because some document GIVES them to you! The right to be FREE, to be left alone, to pursue happiness as you see fit can not be taken away by government because they are not given to you by government!
  
  Get it?
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He gets it, he just thinks he is terribly, terribly 'clever'
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks TK. You're a hoot.
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Rod Marsdenposted 14 years ago
The six days bit for the creation of not only the world but of everything may actually be founded upon the misinterpretation of a Greek word. What was meant may have been ages rather than days which makes a great deal more sense. Also ages allows for the theory of evolution. Creationism or the new term that's floating around for it isn't science at all. Maybe it could be taught in bible class but it doesn't have any place in a science classroom and shouldn't be put up against Darwin's well thought out ideas as some alternative concept. DNA in recent years has gone a long way to confirming Darwin's ideas. Creationism is just magical nonsense. If the people of Texas want another monkey trial in the south they will no doubt get one but it will only do Texas more harm than good.

Re-writing history even at the best of times is a very dangerous and also a very slippery slope.

Yes, the Nazis had a go at it. They re-wrote German and then world history to suit themselves. They even made documentaries.

Muslim nut jobs are also into re-writing history. Why not Christian nut jobs?

Oh for some sane Muslims and Christians that respect history and see no need to tamper with what is known about the past.
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rebekahELLEposted 14 years ago
see how that works? indoctrination? kids believe what they're taught. they have a right to know the facts, to be taught how to think critically, not to have ideologies shoved in their face as history.

McElroy is a dentist. now we have dentists rewriting history.
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  " they have a right to know the facts, to be taught how to think critically, not to have ideologies shoved in their face as history."
  
  Somebody's ideology is always shoved in their faces, unfortunately.
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  Will Apseposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Believe it or not Sab, academics whether historians, scientists and even economists have some pretty rigorous rules for establishing what is fact and what is opinion.
  
  It is also possible to present information as being either well established or controversial and open to interpretation.
  
  In other words not everything is ideology.
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Daniel Carterposted 14 years ago
Hmmmmm, looks like the monkeys have taken over after all....
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I like monkeys. Not keen on creationists. Monkeys are smarter.
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  Daniel Carterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My point, exactamundo.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You like monkeys, too? Good for you then Daniel.
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Greek Oneposted 14 years ago
<--------- Church over here State over here ---------->
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed Greek One. What's more, the French have agreed with that point of view since the French Revolution. It also works in Australia.
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rebekahELLEposted 14 years ago
I hope you've read the entire articles about the revisions, it's more than just creation/evolution. this board wants to rewrite history with a religious, republican slant.
here's one: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/opinion/l16texas.html
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And then other people want to remove mention of Christopher Columbus and include ten chapters about obscure figures who did not in fact alter the course of history but happen to fulfill a diversity criteria.
  
  Always someone's agenda...
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  rebekahELLE, Re-writing history with a political agenda such as an American religious, republican slant has been acknowledged as dangerous and a slippery slope.
  
  I am not the only one here to mention the Nazis and their religious and political agenda in re-writing history for the Nazi cause. Anyone who re-writes their own history or that of other people for political or social gain of any sort are likely to create confusion or worse. Read 1984 by George Orwell for another voice on what can happen when we tamper with what we know of the past.
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  rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I've read 1984, years ago. in school. now it probably wouldn't be allowed.
  
  what a bunch of cowboys and dentists... woo hoo, let's rewrite history, folks.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If you read 1984 then you know where I am coming from.
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Greek Oneposted 14 years ago
Why does every other forum topic give the reader the impression that he is sitting in the jury at the Scopes Monkey Trial?
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The banana peels
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Think about it Greek One. We've also mentioned the Nazis and 1984.
  
  Sab Oh, I agree with you. I don't know how anyone could possibly remove Christopher Columbus from American history. It just doesn't make sense. Why not also remove Penn from American history while you are at it and rename Pennsylvania? Why not say the Spanish never came to the USA and rename Los Angeles and San Francisco? Why not say there was never a very special tea party once in Boston and then go on to say that the USA doesn't exist and that the American colonies are still part of the British Empire? Re-writing history can be fun!
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, there are those of a certain ilk who would be only too happy to remove Penn and include a chapter on (sean) Penn. Anyone who refused to read and agree with that chapter would be imprisoned and given rectal cancer.
  
  Coming to theaters near you soon!
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Good one Sab Oh!
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Daniel Carterposted 14 years ago
To put it another way, if the muslim religion were the predominant religion of Texas, this incident could actually be stated in the headlines as "rewritten with a muslim slant."

Now where does that put all your God-luvin' acceptance and tolerance?
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Doesn't matter who messes with history with an agenda in mind it is still messing with history with an agenda in mind.
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  Daniel Carterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Again, precisely my point.
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Greek Oneposted 14 years ago
hold on a second...

Texas has books??
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yup.
  And BIG books too.
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  you mean those huge pop up books???
  
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  In Texas, they are refered to as doorstops.
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So are you.
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Madame Xposted 14 years ago
Where's A Texan when you need him . . .
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He fell from HP grace 'cause of some libs who wanted to re-write history. Yup we sure could use A Texan about now.
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Daniel Carterposted 14 years ago
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3VOa2F_BzM

The movie has no US distributor because "America is too religious."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne … erica.html

Darwin didn't particularly disbelieve in God. His findings were independent of God. However, religionists were outraged at his findings.

Regardless of what any one may think of Darwin, the truth cannot be forever covered up in zealotism. And I don't pretend to know what it is, but I would like to know, and therefore, don't really care what religionists or atheists believe.

Darwin asked the hard questions that are only now becoming acceptable to ask without religious ridicule.
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  rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  looks interesting. hope it finds a US distributor. I'm sure it will.
  
  well if texas keeps this up, they'll have to get rid of all of the major holidays as they derived from pagan influence.
  
  o.k. must sign off and back to work. I wonder where knowles is.
  I'm sure he would like to see the latest news since he originated this thread many months ago.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Does this mean they'll be canceling Christmas since it was a pagan holiday before it became Christian? well, I suppose Easter also has to go...Too bad. I like Christmas and Easter.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not when you rewrite history.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Here Daniel you are making a lot of sense.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Unless you're in these forums, of course.
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Padrinoposted 14 years ago
Why is everybody upset about the nonexistent sky fairy? If he doesn't exist just call this creative thinking class. Atheists sure get excited about folklore.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There are also a few Agnostics here and no doubt a few Christians who feel Darwin should be heard in schools and Columbus' voyage of discovery should be made known to students of American history. Oh and there is one lover of history here jumping up and down because he loves history.
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Greek Oneposted 14 years ago
What does it matter what is written inside school books in Texas?

No one actually reads them... they just store them up so they can provide cover for assassins who like to shoot liberal democrats
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have two friends living in Texas. They are published writers. One served in the US military. Since they write books I believe they also read them. For all I know they might be the only ones.
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  rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  it matters for a few reasons.
  
  this is clearly a far right, religious move that has deep $$.
  texas purchases most of the textbooks for the country. funny how they removed the word, 'capitalism' from the books and replaced it with 'free enterprise system.' one of the board members said capitalism had a negative implication...
  
  they wanted to eliminate Albert Einstein and replace him with an American...
  
  this is the same board that banned, brown bear, brown bear from the 3 rd grade curriculum because they mistook the author Bill Martin, Jr. for another Bill Martin who wrote about marxism...
  
  country founded on the premise of freedom OF religion, not one religion for all. geez, didn't the texas rangers hang Hispanics?
  is this in the history book? Thomas Jefferson was a Deist, so he's replaced with John Calvin, the French theologian.
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  Daniel Carterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wow. Replace Einstein with an "American." That seems so Aryan of them, which is ironic, since Einstein seems to fit that Germanic/Aryan background.
  
  Odd how White Supremacy is migrating, now, to needing to be more "American."
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  rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yes, it's called "American Exceptionalism" .... cough..
  
  here's a chuckle
  
  http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/03/16 … ooks-yall/
  
  "Texas is in last place for high school graduation rates.
  For the second straight year, Texas has the lowest percentage of high school graduates in the nation, according to a U.S. Census Bureau study released Tuesday. "
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  Daniel Carterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  *cough...*
  
  I think the long-horn state is full of bull. Apparently the math supports it.
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It does unless you ACTUALLY read the source supplied.
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  rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yes, thanks for the update. it was in a comment.
  now 43rd out of 50. a slight improvement.
  
  the point being, something is NOT working.
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As with all states the problem is teachers not students! There are exceptions to this but not very many.
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  rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't have time to argue that one, I've been in both public and private schools. until we get rid of no child left behind, it's hard to teach other than to to the tests. pre-k is now kindergarten...
  
  in some states, graduation standards have been lowered so much that graduation rates don't mean too much anyway. they are gathered differently also, if you check Ed Week, statistics are different from random searches. it doesn't help a student at all if he still graduates not knowing how to think critically and be able to problem solve.
  
  teachers are not the biggest problem. they are part of it, but administration, state funding, curriculums, parents, media and students themselves all play an integral part of public education. many, certainly not all, children in public schools are totally dependent on the school itself for their education, their character training, their values as it's not taught at home.
  
  off for now.
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My statement is not directed at you personally.
  
  That's the typical liberal mantra when it comes to education, blame the parents and never the school or teachers. Public schools are another area where big government has failed us and the Democrats can't seem to understand that.
  
  There are ways to get children out of the public boondoggle and into private institutions where the teachers are actually qualified.
  
  But Democrats can't stand the idea of losing control of young minds that they can mold into believing whatever scam they want to perpetrate next.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Like Jefferson, Einstein and Darwin? Yes indeed, keep our children away from the great thinkers and innovators.
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, not like Jefferson,Einstein and Darwin, like Gore, and the rest who indoctrinate instead of educate.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No it's not, it's parents. Parents are responsible for the education of their children, and if the parents don't care, the children won't either. Thinking skills begin at home.
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If that's true then why am I paying taxes to the public school system? The problem is Teachers, Schools and Administrators, no matter how much you try and blame everyone but them it is still them!
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  blue dogposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  thank you, pandora.
  
  http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/03/13-1
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Bill Maher? He certainly is a qualified, well, never mind he isn't qualified for anything.
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  blue dogposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  and you are. tex.
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am qualified to speak and write about what I know, not what I know nothing about. tex?
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "Bill Maher? He certainly is a qualified, well, never mind he isn't qualified for anything."
  
  He isn't qualified to work as a doorstop.
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your stats are almost 4 years old, Texas is not last in High School graduation rates.
  
  http://www.politifact.com/texas/stateme … ed-states/
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Daniel, how can A. Einstein fit the German/Aryan mold? He was born a Jew. He had to leave Europe because he was born a Jew. He came to America because he saw it as the land of freedom and opportunity because he was born a Jew.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes I guess they finally got the point about Jefferson. So now they just pretend he didn't exist. They keep it up they're gonna have to write off a bunch of the most active founders.
  
  How you gonna write off Jefferson? What the heck is wrong with these people?
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Some if not all of the founding fathers of the USA were into Freemasonry. How does that sit with Texas?
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Padrinoposted 14 years ago
Having visited Texas a time or two for business I can guarantee Texans do not care what the rest of the world/country thinks of them.

They will continue to be the most innovative people on earth with a great economy, my state should take lessons from Texas on how not to self destruct, whoops too late!
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alexandriaruthkposted 14 years ago
History is very important, politics should not come into it, It is a nations history of being and becoming -- it should be exact -- in ideal terms -- and leave it as it should be

isnt it that history should be devoid of personal belief etc. it should be facts

and to reinvent it is just an insult to the legacy of the people.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  well said alexandriaruthk!
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Brenda Durhamposted 14 years ago
Y'all can't talk 'bout bumpkins that way!
Dontcha know that's hate speech?
What are y'all thinking??
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  We are thinking y'all should get a shovel and bury political correctness then stand by with a crucifix and a stake.
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Greek Oneposted 14 years ago
the REAL problem is the kids!

they are just plain dumb and stupid!
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Some of 'em sure are.
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  mod2vintposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed, except they are not dumb and stupid. The kids are awful, mean, and to worried about the social aspect of things. Like lets dress like a thug, look like a gang banger, and see how out right mean we can be. Teachers, administrators, and the parents that give a crap cant have disciplinary control over the kids because OMG it might be construed as freaking child abuse.
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There are a lot of grades before the kids start worrying about peer pressure, I will agree that some parents are to blame for their twisted offspring, but the bigger problem is in the public school system!
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  mod2vintposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, the public school system sucks, but every child has the same oportunity to learn in it as the other. It is what that child makes of it. But when the teacher has no control over the class room, and the kids know it, and can do nothing to the disruptive child than whats the point. They all join in and no one learns. If a child finds a certain area of study interesting its up to them to go above and beyound what the school system is required to teach to learn more. The thing is the kids don't want to.
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The Teacher is not doing their job if they have lost control of the classroom, you can't blame kids for being kids. The Teacher is ill prepared to Teach and should therefore be fired, sorry, its just the way it is.
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  mod2vintposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The kids have no fear! And your right the teachers are not prepared to face thirty thugs in a closed room with no one to get their back. I guess if it were me I would get fired and spend the next year on unemployment like so many others, that or be in jail for standing up to some little thug.
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thirty Thugs in a classroom, eh, not even worth continuing.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  In Australia it is forty thugs to a class room but they don't get to play with guns.
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  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  my child is a product of the public school system and he got what i consider a good education. he started reading at 18 months of age...no one taught him that. he just started reading. i assume because we (his parents) read to him from a young age). the school system recognized that he was 'gifted' and offered him accelerated classes at a young age and allowed him to flourish. i got to know all of his teachers throughout his academic career and there was only one really bad teacher and she got reprimanded severely for terrorizing her first graders. but other than that, most of his teachers were involved and dedicated and demonstrated that they really knew my son and weren't just going through the motions. i would much rather have my child in a public school than a home school.
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Why not home school? According to you he started reading at 18 months, you must have been one hell of a teacher!
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  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  i read to him, and so did his father, when he was a baby, so i guess he absorbed it somehow.
  
  why not homeschool?
  
  well, for me, i don't think a child can get a complete academic training unless he goes through the education system. that is my opinion, and i certainly don't expect others to agree with it, 'k?
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You mean the Public education system. I would bet if you home schooled your child you would give him a superior education than he received from the public school system. I also believe the graduation rates of Home Schooled children and those from private schools would obliterate those of the public schools.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Isn't that kind of obvious? You're comparing a group of children generally given every advantage of parental interest and involvement to a mixed group coming from all different backgrounds. There aren't alot of troubled, low-income children in private schools or being home-schooled.
  
  In the end it isn't the schooling that makes a difference but the impact of the parents.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree. To be fair if my children were forced to attend a school in a low income area that lacked adequate funding then I might feel compelled to pull them out, and certainly if it was a dangerous environment.
  
  Otherwise I feel that my children benefit from being exposed to different people and varying ways of doing things and various viewpoints. Sure it's not all good, but neither is reality.
  
  Most importantly, WE TALK!!! and about everything. But I am not so egotistical and close-minded as to think that others cannot contribute something worthwhile to my childrens' educations.
  
  It would no doubt surprise people to know that my son often attends a local church. He attends the youth group night as well as most weekends the Sunday service.
  
  He goes mostly because he has friends who attend, and he is quite capable of separating the wheat from the chaff in the teachings. Sometimes he says it was the same old same old, sometimes he comes home talking about something that was discussed or brought up in the sermon.
  
  So I have no sympathy for these fools in Texas afraid their children will be indoctrinated into lax values if they're exposed to the legacy of Thomas Jefferson.
  
  No let's get rid of the man who believed "all men are created equal" and replace him with Calvin who espoused unconditional election, otherwise known as free will doesn't exist and god sends people to hell for no reason whatsoever.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What do you mean?----Jefferson has a legacy of belief in God/Jesus.
  
  But hey, the doctrine of Calvin?----I don't EVEN wanna get started on that false doctrine!
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It seems Texas is ahead of you on Jefferson's religious beliefs. God -yes, more or less. Well, less than you certainly. Jesus -as a great teacher yes. As the virgin born son of a god and savior of the world -not so much.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  " Thomas Jefferson believed that the ethical system of Jesus was the finest the world has ever seen. In compiling what has come to be called "The Jefferson Bible," he sought to separate those ethical teachings from the religious dogma and other supernatural elements that are intermixed in the account provided by the four Gospels. He presented these teachings, along with the essential events of the life of Jesus, in one continuous narrative."
  
  http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/
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  Madame Xposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This is a fabulous book!
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Too bad Texas wants it banned.
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  Madame Xposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  They do?
  
  Gotta source?
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i read a book that listed all the books which Texas had banned...
  
  I tried to pick up a copy during a visit to Dallas...
  but it too had been banned
  
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  Madame Xposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yet amazingly, the Cliff's notes is still available.
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yeah, but the Texas version is written by a guy name Cliff.. and jit ust talks a lot about salvation
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ahhhhhhhh, I knew there was a catch.
  
  More cowbell!
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  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  you raised many a good point; all of which i agree with - regular, honest communication and exposure to other ways of thinking, other values even, allow our children to grow and to keep from straying from the core values their parents teach them. it is when we try to keep them in tiny shrink-wrapped worlds that they fail to develop skills needed to not only survive in this big, crazy world, but thrive. there's nothing wrong with allowing them the freedom to make their own choices. i wouldn't want an obedient robot for a child..i would feel that i failed him in some way if that were the case
  
  oOo, now that makes them even tougher, no doubt...
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  rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  peer pressure begins as soon as a child begins school. it starts at the local preschool.
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And?
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  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  omgsh hee hee you just made me visualize a bunch of baby thugs wearing leather jackets
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  mod2vintposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL--- don't forget the tatoos!
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  rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  oh yes, very popular!! they are so excited to show them off.
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have kids from the 3rd grade on up to High School, none of them were concerned what other kids thought until at least the 7th grade. My experience has been that you are not correct.
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  rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  your experience speaks for yourself and your children.
  
  I have enough experience to say what I said.
  
  it is up to the parents to help educate their children.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  In Australia if a teacher talks mean to a kid he or she can be in trouble. Little johnny might be punching some other kid's lights out but the teacher can't pull him away from the other kid or talk mean to him.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Can't break up a fight? That doesn't sound right..
  
  And define "talk mean to a student." That does sound right, frankly.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If a teacher touches a student he's in trouble. When I was a kid a teacher would break up a fight by taking both students by the scruff of the neck and hauling them off to the principal. you simply can't do that any more. By talking mean I am saying talking stern. It could be considered verbal harrassment and that it a no-no.
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  rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  a real 'touchy' subject...
  
  parents will tell you, 'do whatever you need to do', and then blame you for something you didn't do... or something their child fabricated. best advice, don't touch them!
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That's horrific. I can't understand the logic behind this. Did some school official go too far and get the county sued or something? This seems like a case of an extreme reaction to a rare incident ending up in a policy that leaves schools powerless to deal with violent students.
  
  Is this law in effect outside of school? Are citizens required to ignore violence when they see it and just call the police? If a couple of guys see a woman being raped in an alley, are they not allowed to interfere if they feel capable of stopping it? What if a female student is being raped in a school bathroom? Are teachers not allowed to pull the attacker away from her?
  
  This sounds very extreme. And ridiculous. Why would any parent agree to send their children to schools that will not do everything possible to keep them safe?
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Protecting the rights of the individual against the rights of everyone else has gone too far. Kids basically know that they can get teachers into trouble quite easily and so push the line.
  
  Right now in Australia if a parent is seen smacking their own child.s on thew behind for misbehaving in public they could be brought up on assault charges. Hence you have little children playing merry hell with parents in supermarkets and all the parent feels he or she is entitled to do is either reason with the kid to stop the bad behavior or bribe the kid to stop the bad behavior.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I've never felt a need to beat my children.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Beating kids is just wrong.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Smacking the behind of a kid screaming its lungs out in a supermarket because he or she knows or thinks they know they can get away with it is another thing. Discipline with care and restraint is a bit different from beating someone, anyone up.
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  They aren't stupid, they are being indoctrinated into believing stupid things, by, hold on, here it comes, Teachers!
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  and what were teachers once?
  
  stupid kids!
  
  see.. it all goes back to stupid kids!
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, regular kids who were indoctrinated, we could be doing this awhile.
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "They aren't stupid"
  
  Oh, some them are.
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I guess you're right.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Might makes right rules the classroom if teachers are not given the power to do something about it. You legally tie their hands together and expect them to teach? Good luck on that one!
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  School teachers don't have that much influence over children.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That is what I am saying and they should have some influence.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Haven't got time to go back and see what I said this is response to, (wish hubpages hadn't shortened the thread appearances in replies this way), so I'm just gonna wing it.
  
  If I recall right, I said this in response to someone who suggested that teachers were indoctrinating children with a liberal bias. My feeling is that what they hear at home is gonna have a much huger impact than what they hear at school.
  
  That said, whatever the slant at home may be, an unbiased education may provide the student a way to break free of parental prejudices and ignorance, should he or she choose to take it.
  
  A collective of historians is qualified to determine what gets printed in history text books, not a biased school board composed of dentists and realtors working from a religious and/or political agenda.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  History has to deal with as close as possible with past events as we understand them. If this does not happen then it really isn't history. It grieves me to know that some history teachers feel they don't have the time to cover Germany straight after WW1. They simply hand kids the cut down version of WW1 and WW2.
  
  In order to really understand how WW2 came about you really have to deal with the years between the wars, especially in Germany. Hitler didn't just come to power and the German people didn't just ditch a failing democracy for a dictatorship. 'Events happened that made the German people so desperate for order and three square meals a day that they let what the Nazis were doing to Jews, Gypsies and Communists slide.
  
  What other countries had done to Germany and the German people in the time between wars also pushed us into WW2. Yet in some classes in some schools they zip kids from one war straight into another and wonder why they are dumbfounded.
  
  Reasoned debate as to causes is also part of advanced history. If there is a bias you can't very well check out all historic proof for various arguments as to how things really did play out. You are stuck with one view only which may or may not be the right one.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah I totally agree. I was lucky though in that my father was a huge history buff. I generally knew more about stuff than many of my history teachers. It should be that way to some extent, your parents/elders should supplement your school education.
  
  On the other hand, the best history teachers I had were ones who knew and loved their subject and were free to talk about it. We might miss alot of what was supposed to be covered, but what was covered we got. Not just the facts, the dates and names, but the forces and ideas behind the events.
  
  A teacher who could spark your imagination on a single thing was worth far more than one who could cram meaningless facts into your head. But since the George Bush "No Child Left Behind" act, teachers no longer have the time to engage students in their subjects.
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  rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  very true words.
  
  teachers, when they're able to really teach, can ignite a passion for learning that will only grow IF the child continues to be inspired, both at home and at school. parents are the first and best teachers when their role is taken seriously.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I remember a teacher got me interested in ancient Egypt. My dad got me interested in American history. He loves Westerns. He still collects the paperbacks.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, Westerns in paperback form and the movies don't often touch upon the real west of the 1870s onwards. They are about the romance of the period. they are about 'a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do' and so on. Even so I got hooked when I started looking into the difference between how people want the west to have been and the reality. The Middle Ages is the same deal.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I used to read historical paperbacks alot, (the kind with a lusty broad and a handsome hero on the front) and the western 'dime novels' as well. Love 'em, usually, but hate it when they try and paint a too glossy picture.
  
  Still, I'm always entranced by the concept of the wide open spaces in the westerns, australians and early colonials. Don't really have time for it anymore though, but every once in a while I'll stop by an estate or yard sale and find a bunch of them. Can't resist.
  
  The middle ages was damned tough. Okay enough if you were rich enough I guess, but too hard on the common people. Don't think I would have enjoyed it. Of course, wherever you are, there you are, but the adventurous west or such strikes my fancy much more than the middle ages.
  
  Even though I hate the consequences of it, what we did to the natives, the loss of the wild, etc., darn what a great time to have been alive.
  
  Egypt is fascinating, but for me it was the greeks and romans -also due to a teacher. My latin magistra was the inspiring sort, passionate about her field and a great person. That was when my dad started borrowing my books, lol.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  With the middle ages there's the romances of fair damsels and shining knights created by the troubadours, the wandering poets and singers. They created the myth about the Christian warrior that lives on to this day. Fascinating stuff when compared to the reality which was basically thugs in armor. My history professor at college got me interested in medieval times with the idea of thugs in armor the reality and the other being what they should have been and possibly wanted to be. There's a Star trek novel that captures this dualism beautifully. Its called There be Dragons.
  
  The middle ages was a rough and ready time in which you really did have to be born into the right family to get anywhere. I too wouldn't want to live in those times. The absurdities and contradictions as well as the hopes and struggles of that period can hook me.
  
  Egypt grabs me for a number of reasons. I guess what really gets me is their desire to defeat death. Of course it is something that can't be done but there is no where else on earth except maybe Central America where such effort has been put into trying to understand the problem and arrive at a workable solution. Living a stone's throw away from a great desert I suppose can do that for you and to you.
  
  Another thing that grabs me is how real Egyptian history is way more fascinating than the Hollywood take. For a long time Hollywood would have us believe that slaves built the pyramids and other structures of a religious nature. Not so. There have been films made of the story of Moses showing Hebrew slaves being whipped, etc as they drag huge rocks for the building of the resting place for the pharaoh. It never happened. Only those who believed in the Pharaoh's divinity were allowed to work on such a structure. Actually the bible of all things come to the rescue here. There's mention of Moses and his people building with mud bricks reinforced with straw. Such bricks were used to build homes to live in and shops. Definitely not tombs.
  
  Yes, there are sad bits to the true West. There are also heroes with feet of clay but still heroes. I would love to visit the black hills of Dakota some day. It sounds like beautiful country not too dissimilar to the Blue Mountains in NSW, Australia.
  
  Australian history really takes off for me from 1901 onwards. Australian mateship really came into its own in the trenches of WW1 and Australia did beat the USA by a considerable margin by giving the women the vote in 1902.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Heroes with feet of clay are the only kind I fully believe in. That said, the poets and troubadours focusing on the best of humanity surely have some role in bringing out the best in humanity.
  
  I didn't know that about the egyptian slaves and the pyramids. I knew they weren't given to revolt, they weren't like what you think when you think of slaves. They didn't much bemoan their lot in life. Weren't certain slaves often also entombed with their masters, to provide them service in the next life?
  
  At any rate, it all comes back around to death, doesn't it? Not fear of personal death, but the difficulty in accepting that those who have gone before us are really gone.
  
  Anyway. Yeah, I dream of a cabin in the woods on a mountain somewhere with lots of open land. Hope I get around to affording it before it's all gone! But then, as they say, we still have the books!
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The rulers of ancient Egypt were like half Gods in their own right. Slaves might be made to build homes and work the fields and bring in the crops, etc but the tombs including the pyramids had religious significance. Those who worked on the tombs, ect did not bemoan their lot because they could expect to be with their ruler in the afterlife. They had their ticket. What's more they were workmen and women who were fed well and they got the best medical treatments available at the time.
  
  They may have used slaves for the secret passages or they may have used peasants who believed in the divinity of the ruler and saw their sacrifice in this world as not as important as what they were going to get in the next world. To serve their ruler in this world and then in the next was considered an honor.
  
  There were towns build especially for the artisans and their families who worked on the tombs and pyramids. A lot of this information has only been unearthed within the last two decades with the unearthing of one of these towns.
  
  The bible points to slaves in Egypt being harshly treated and I cannot believe there weren't the occasional revolt that had to be put down. The bible also indicates that how the slaves worked had nothing to do with anything the Egyptians would put a religious stamp on unless of course the slave or slaves in question came to believe in the ruler's divinity and in the gods of the Egyptians.
  
  Not sure if death is the end of all. I don't buy the Egyptian ideas on immortality but I do believe that there is something of us that lives on or exists in some way after death.
  
  A fishing spot will do me when I retire. I love visiting the mountains in Spring and Autumn but not fond of Winter there. The sea has its own rugged beauty. I just hope there will still be fish to catch in decades to come.
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mikelongposted 14 years ago
So Texas is trying to move the Anglo form of God into the class while removing or minimizing Cesar Chavez.....interesting.
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  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Cesar Chavez? Is he a God? A Texas hero? I fail to see why any kid anywhere should learn about Cesar Chavez.
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cosetteposted 14 years ago
i wouldn't do it without help, that's for sure. we thought about putting him in a private school...even toured the place but it seemed too cloistered. anyway, we always helped him with his homework and examined what he was studying and were very involved, so we knew he was getting taught everything he should know, and more, over the years.
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Rod Marsdenposted 14 years ago
The gently gently approach to teaching and learning doesn't always work. If the kid is thick or pig-headed they will not only ruin school for themselves but for heaps of others. Then in the USA when they leave school they get to play with guns. Heck some of 'em get to play with guns while in school.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There's alot of room between gently gently and abusive.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Of course there is a lot of room between gently gently and abusive.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, agreed, so why anyone would advocate either extreme is beyond me.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Some people are dumb or have seen abusive happen and it scared them so they have pushed for the other extreme.
  
  There are people who still feel political correctness is the way to go. I have come across late teens that don't know how to verbally express themselves partly because of political correctness (they can't verbally offend anyone in public even if they have been verbally offended) so it all eventually spills over into violence. When questioned about violent activity they have nothing to say, they can't talk it out and possible come to better terms and understanding with others because they have an invisible politically correct zipper on their mouths.
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Huh. I don't know about that. I grew up with kids afraid to express themselves to authority figures because their lives were so different from others that they felt they'd be judged, but I don't think I've ever personally come across politically correct kids. Where I live most kids just echo their parents' ignorant rantings.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Australia and the UK have been playing around with political correctness a lot longer than the USA.
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mikelongposted 14 years ago
Evidently, padrino, you fail to understand Chavez' relevance....

He is a hero, just as Martin Luther King Jr. and Theodore Roosevelt....

He's a significant figure in American labor...he is a symbol of how race in the workplace fell........

But one would have to know of him in order to understand his worthy place, especially in Texas, where a great many Mexican-American agricutural workers are going to need such a role model...

But, it is Texas after all.....
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mikelongposted 14 years ago
Let me clarify my statement further...

The International Longshore and Warehouse Union, under the leadership of another national hero, Harry Bridges, reoriented its stance towards segregation in the workplace....and stood shoulder to shoulder with Cesar Chavez in order to stop President Nixon from sending free-market boycotted grapes to Vietnam...

This move by Nixon is an example of a "bailout" by the government of big agriculture... There were no "Tea-baggers" running around...or cries that Nixon's appropriation of tax payer dollars would be used to settle a labor struggle unilaterally on the side of the growers....

But people belittle or marginalize Chavez.....how interesting....

What are these textbooks going to teach about Nixon, by the way?

ALl of these themes intersect with the undermining of public education, at least in Los Angeles...the drive to privatize education...and then the new "teachers" can use whatever texts they wish....

Private schooling is a good thing, but there should always be a public option......

As with other things......
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Sab Ohposted 14 years ago
Always back to unions again...
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RNMSNposted 14 years ago
history is written by the victors/it has already been edited/no one will ever know the TRUE atrocities done in the name of any higher power
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This is correct when it comes to much of history. From about 1865 onwards, however, this is not true about American history. The people who lived in the South and fought for the Southern cause did write their own history of events leading up to the civil war and even events directly after the war. In some cases their writing did see print so it is possible to see from the point of view of vanquished as well as the victors.
  
  Knowing the true atrocities of any conflict is always problematical but I believe in the last three centuries we do have a better handle and a better take on what happens and what did happen. We do have a hell of a lot more first hand evidence to sift through for any major event. It is important to be able to do the sifting and to reach unbiased conclusions or as unbiased as it is possible to be since we are only human..
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Valerie Fposted 14 years ago
This is nuts. But then again, so was a lot of the "history" I was taught. For a long time, I honestly thought Galileo was put under house arrest for teaching that the solar system was heliocentric. Well, that was what all the textbooks said. No mention was made of the borderline libel he committed against his one-time friend the Pope- which happened to be the real reason he got into trouble.

The fact is that a lot of history textbooks present a rather abbreviated, very simplistic, and one-sided view on various religions, and Texas' overcompensation will simply result in more of the same.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You could be right. Galileo did push friendship too far. He thought he could get away with stuff by putting it into dialogue between what he claimed were fictional characters. Galileo had been pushing the envelope before hand too and that surely would have also been taken into account. The fact that he was right about his findings and his beliefs make up much that is presented to students today.
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Uninvited Writerposted 14 years ago
Texas Explains Decision on History Textbooks
Official Statement from Texas State Board of Education

AUSTIN, TX (The Borowitz Report) – Attempting to explain its controversial decision to revamp its history textbooks, The Texas State Board of Education issued an official statement today.

The one-sentence statement reads as follows: “If you were the state responsible for George W. Bush being elected President, you’d throw out your history books, too.”

In other news, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said it had been difficult to get Republicans to vote for health care because of a “tactical error” by President Obama: “He should have called it ‘gun care.’”

Elsewhere, employment numbers were up, largely due to the government’s decision to start counting people working on Farmville.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Love it!
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Very droll! farmville you say?
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
Nice post Ron. I have been keeping up to date with Egypt's ongoing discoveries, and would just like to say that to the best of my knowledge you are correct about the Egyptians who built the pyramids being workers with property and a good living for the time and place. Well said.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
This has turned in to a great thread full of useful informative and humour!

What the hell went wrong?
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I admit it has been good. Just put me on the history trail and watch me go. There seem to be a few others here who aren't too different from me in this regard. Pandoras Box and, I take it, you are of the same ilk. Always good to make contact with people who have both forms of wit on tap.
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