Should I Forgive Anyboby?
Only if the person is deserving for forgiveness and means sorry.Some mistake kindness for weakness and take advantage of it.Eventually even if I forgive it does not matter as god decides on the karmic consequences which is only going to help make that person a better person.Rather everything hs been destined.
I have written these couplets.
Who am I to give?
Who am I to forgive?
The binding force is love,
The symbol being a white dove.
The other aspect is all is you.
That's a serious one Andrew.
I'm with you on this. I too think that unforgiving hurts the person who does not forgive, not the offender.
However, our culture is based on eye-for-eye principle. We think it is just and beneficial. And while it is relatively easy for most of us to forgive somebody who stepped on our foot, forgiving somebody who raped your daughter or killed your mother seems to be impossible for a regular human being and available only to saints...
Funny, just yesterday or the day before I was talking to Sandy on one of her hubs that forgiveness conflicts with the whole body of criminal lawWe were just yesturday. Funny how these things go eh?
Assuming you are still alive that is lol Some "offences" are greater than others.
You are talking presumably about minor offences - nothing serious.
You forgive the man that rapes and murders your 3-year-old daughter - right?
You LOVE him? It is so POWERFUL - your love for that man
And in answer to the question that you already have THE CORRECT answer for -
It depends.I agree. But, why do you think you should forgive him?
And can you ever do so? Unlikely - in your heart of hearts, it will be all but impossible to genuinely love this person.
Forgiveness makes perfect sense - sometimes.
We have all felt the benefit when we forgive some one. Felt the weight lift when we forgive our best friend for stealing that girl we fancied or advising us on a bad investment. Just let it go and forgiven. We feel much better.
But the same does not apply to a bigger transgression. That's why there are lynching parties and thousands of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan at the moment. The Christian thing to do was go kick ass - the entire US felt better - for a while.
Once you realize you are as important as a grain of sand on the beach and the only thing you can ever hope to do is improve yourself in the ways that make sense deep down. Being true to yourself is one of those, and pretending to forgive some one for raping and murdering your 3 year old isn't reasonable to try to achieve. You will go crazy - You might as well try to walk on water
This is why the bible is full of such a lot of contradictions.
Sometimes you should forgive, some times you should string them up from the nearest tree.
Just like God does.
It all depends which makes you feel better
SJ - Your explanation makes no sense to me either I'm afraid.As usual, I can only speak from my own experiences and interpretations...
I still don't see that the bible has contradictions...a person just needs to understand that each instance was that instance and the instance of a particular individual's perspective...let alone the interpretations of the centuries and the language.
And most importantly the ability to reach deeply into oneself for stability in the Unity with the Universe, and find the major blocks to that sense of Unity. I perceive, Mark, you have not done that yet, or at least not come to acceptance (what i call surrender to Universal Law) of certain pains from the past.
I don't know if the examples that have been stated are the facts of the matter (rape and death) we are talking about...but I have had some traumas that run deep as well.
My own sanity was in danger and I feel that I was guided to the answers I needed, once I surrendered. But the surrender was not initially to God, as I knew at that moment, but was a "giving up" on control of my life. I believed I had nothing, was nothing and had no reason for being...but had already in previous years tried suicide, found I knew that wasn't my deepest desire, so gave up instead.
In retrospect, it was a giving up on life, that I had already gotten to a certain point about because of life traumas, and this "giving up" was the only next step that I had been unwilling to take...it took the only good man I had ever loved to die an accidental death shortly after the birth of our child, for me to "give in" to Universal control.
I have spent the following decades seeking understanding and fulfillment of my place in the Universal scheme of things, and though I comprehend that to a degree now, I STILL have to deal with the memories and emotions from the past, in cycles of the spiral. Pain lessens about some things, and some things have totally healed and/or dissolved. But this happened only because I was willing to learn and accept the "ways" of Universal Order/Law...God.
Even that acceptance is still changing, because my perception and understanding changes, but the main point is that I have a point of "ultimate contact/belief" that is stable, as all the other continues to "whirl about" from time to timePlease read again what I wrote...did I say I thought the "only path" to higher understanding is my way? No...I said "in my humble opinion" "from my limited perspective" did I see Mark a certain way. I didn't say anything about someone being lost...you said that.
I perceive that you and Mark respond to my perceptions from your own perception/definitions of what "spiritual" means, of what "God" means...from your own experiences.
Jenny, I think you and Mark both "do protest too much", about what I am trying to get at and others too sometimes, when we talk about God. And that continues to lead me to believe that there is something deeper to be understood.
I go on feeling and perception (which I can't begin to explain...it is my life experience only). IMHO, I feel you both sometimes get "stuck in the intellectual" and your souls are not accepting of, understanding of, wanting of, a perception of "God" that I experience and others experience who don't have a "difficulty" loving/allowing a sense of "God" in their life.
And because my sense is "beyond" human perception and definition, I can't explain it...so that always leaves an opening for your intellectual mind to say "see, you can't prove it, so its not real", and you can feel that you are right and I am wrong, and go your merry way another day.
But I feel deeper soul awareness... No one is right, no one is wrong...I just feel/see what I feel/see.
My deeper soul awareness, like yours, is wrapped up in human layers to be peeled back and exposed, or not, we have free will. I desire to expose pain...the dark side..for its unreality and work it out. It is interesting and emotional for me to perceive things in others that they don't see or don't want to see...I don't know when to say something and when not to say something...I am learning.I completely understand what you mean Jewel. I love you, God bless you, you know. You were my first fan and I think you are great.
Can't agree with you SJ.
The only "psychological purpose" of believing in god is as a crutch.
Once you can accept the "natural order" of things, there is no need for this fiction. No matter how much better it makes you feel in the short term.
I feel no need to judge the natural order as you do. I feel no need to imagine there is a "higher guidance" that comes from a god and I have lost touch with it.
All I do is look inside and allow myself to connect to the life around me. All the guidance I need is there.
I do not need to imagine that there are souls in limbo in need of my prayer. In fact, if this is the case, there is no natural order to things whatsoever
Forgiveness is an internal need. I will feel better if I "forgive" the murderer of my child as he sits in the electric chair lol
What that really means is to let it go, accept it and not dwell on it for the rest of your life. Hard to do when your 3 year old daughter was raped and murdered. If not impossible.
You should not forgive some one because it is the right thing to do. There is no right and wrong in my philosophy. There just is.
The contradictions in the bible that you are prepared to convince yourself do not exists if you believe are easily explained. Sometimes you should forgive them because it makes you feel better. Sometimes you should turn them into a pillar of salt because that will make you feel better. Depending
Not sure why you think I have lost touch with my feelings, emotions etc. And I do not have a "not self" lol My "not self" is right here with my "true self" - They often have a discussion amongst themselves and let me know the outcome. Just because they have come to the conclusion that there is not a god and find it funny that people need to believe in a god to make themselves feel better doesn't mean they are wrong.
Having said that, I agree that people have cut themselves off from the "natural order." Buying new cars and spending all day on the internet are just some of the ways we do that.
Definitely "should" in the meaning of "have to" is not the best word here. Of course I have no obligation to do so. But - based on the body of literature I read and my own thoughts and life experience - I know that doing so will benefit me, people around me, and the Universe as a whole. Even in the extreme case of rape and murder. I am not capable of doing this, though, in such an extreme case. Come on, I can't even forgive some fellow hubbers whose only sin is posting something I disagree with
I forgive everything, holding on to grudges doesn't do anything for me. Plus, I can always find a reason to forgive, but it doesn't mean I don't feel.
If someone ever hurt my kid, I would want to kill that person, seriously, I would hate them to death but...I know the consequences of life and even when I feel hate or anger, I always remember that in the sense I think about, it isn't thier fault.
It's life in general. I can show someone love by keeping them away from me.
Correct and a nice angel.
You are cool-the monk with the mercedes SLR
Of course I did.
I don't always reply or quote, but I always read all what you have to say on these forums
But this one does not resonate with me, at least not yet, sorryI am here if you want to share. Remember, if you ever need anything...
I Love you, my spiritual brother Misha
- RFoxposted 16 years ago
0Of course I believe in forgiveness but it's not easy. We have to train ourselves to respond differently to what our survival instincts tell us. This takes a long time.
Looking inside and realizing that all of us are capable of darkness as we are all capable of lightness is a way to begin to understand and forgive another.
I am a pacifist and have taken a vow to not kill sentient beings. Do I still have the capacity to kill someone deep inside? Of course I do. Humans are animals and we do have those instincts and urges.
People kill bugs all the time without a second thought, yet a lot of people revere dogs and treat them like family. Why?
We made a choice to separate certain things in our brains. To feel that some things are fine to kill and others not. Yet the instinct to kill is still there under the surface. We have the ability to choose. Choice is ever present in all our emotional dealings with others.
We are all capable of what another person would call an "unforgivable act". Each of has a different definition of what an "unforgivable act" would be.
When you start to meditate on these contradictions and really get honest with yourself about what you could do if pushed to the brink, then and only then can you begin to see how it is possible to forgive another.
Forgiveness doesn't mean the other person gets off scot free though. Murderers should go to jail. Actions have consequences. Forgiving doesn't mean that person has to stay in your life either. It simply means you do the hard work to forgive and learn about yourself in the process.
Forgiveness is an internal experience not an external experience. IMHO. Thanks Rachelle, this actually makes sense to me
Thanks Misha. I try.
Meditating on these things are the only way I can begin to feel forgiveness. Realizing my imperfect nature allows me to accept the imperfect nature of those around me.
Doesn't mean my first thought isn't anger and pain but this seems to subside quicker the more you practice. It's certainly getting better for me and easier to let go.
Something that years ago I could not forgive, I can now come to acceptance on in a few days.
Forgiveness follows acceptance. It's like a natural progression. When someone hurts me now I try to think of all the times I have hurt people, sometimes unintentionally, sometimes intentionally (we all have these experiences). I go back through my life and take stock of my transgressions and how they appeared to others and hurt others. In this way I can start to understand the darkness in the person who has hurt me. As it is the same darkness that we all have inside, we just choose to express it differently.
Everyone has the capacity to change for the better or for the worse. Our life is a struggle mired in these choices. I make a concerted effort to choose the light but sometimes the dark still wins. After all, I am certainly not enlightened yet! Lol.
- sandra rinckposted 16 years ago0
You know, when I was a teen, I had awful fights with my father. We had heated arguments for hours easily over absolutely insignificant things. And then came my mom and told us - OK, now, why don't you guys compare your definitions first. And more often than not it appeared we were using the same words to denote completely different things...
I suspect it is the case here, too
I mean between Mark and Jewel.
SJ
At the risk of having Jenny lumped in with me, I agree with what she is saying here.
As you may have noticed, I tend to respond to people in the tone to which I perceive myself to have been spoken to. From my perspective, you make so many judgments about me, and have decided already what I do or don't believe and what I am capable of.
And have also decided I am -
"not accepting of, understanding of, wanting of, a perception of "God" that I experience and others experience who don't have a "difficulty" loving/allowing a sense of "God" in their life."
I don't think you appreciate just how condescending this judgment is. Sandra called me harsh when I responded to you in the tone I did, but I responded in the same tone I felt you were talking to me.
It is not quite as offensive as being told I will see no contradictions in the bible if I just allow Jesus Christ to become my personal savior. lol - But it's close.
I have seen and connected with what I think you call god. And I came to some radically different conclusions to the ones you have come to.
Possibly because I connected in a different way from you. My connection came from years of martial arts practice, years of giving myself up to not earning money and just making people feel better as my main goal in life, years of thinking about how much sense all the religions made as a literal interpretation of the way the universe works and years of seeking an answer to the question no one knows.
And I have come to the conclusion that there is no "god,"
I do not need to do anything - or pray for people to help them move on after death - or "forgive" them or "love" everyone. These things, people do for themselves, not for others.
As I tried to explain somewhere else, my definition of love is radically different from other people's. I don't profess to love some one and then tell them their viewpoint is invalid because they have not opened their heart to Jesus, or have "cut yourself off from higher understanding by, IMHO, not believing in God with it's psychological purpose, soul, feelings, emotions, dealing with the not self, inner family healing, etc"
If I love you - I will kill or die for you. I do not believe all the people who profess to "love me" here will do that for me.
The sort of love they actually posses is the sort of love that says:
"I love you so much, I will never speak to you again,"
"I love you so much, I will insist that you believe what I believe."
"I love you so much, I am going to leave you with our 3 children and do my own thing."
"I love you so much, I want to sell you this whatever that will make your life better."
"I love you so much, I am going to beat you until you understand what you did was wrong."
"I love you so much, I am going to fill your head with nonsense."
"I love you so much, I am going to send you away to church school until you understand."
This is the sort of love I can do without.Responses are interesting, you almost never know what they are going to be.
It is only logical that you and Jenny agree on what you think you see in what I think I see in you. The mirror of life continues to revolve.
I am grateful for continued learning and not being stuck.
Many Blessings in our continued work on life and for life. Mark, I AM sorry for you that you perceived that I was attacking you in some way.
The soul makes choices to deal with psychology or not, and forgive or not. I AM dealing with my psychology, human and divine, and I AM dealing with forgiveness. I choose to move on and not get too comfortable in unresolved human stuff, I like the challenges of the unknown.
I agree. And you are in for a nasty surprise at some point.
You have managed to completely miss my point. I believe you mean carnal, but I am not going to report you for a smelling mistake.
The point I was making was that "forgiveness" and "love" as you describe them are for the benefit of the forgiver and the lover. Not the benefit of the recipient of those wonderfully twisted uses of the words.
Your next statement adequately re-enforces the point I was making:
See, here's the deal. You "forgave" me and showed me "love"
You learned a lesson from that. You chose to not argue with me and learned something which made you a better person and hubber.
It made no difference to me.
None.
I don't care either way.
Benefit to Andrew - 100%
Benefit to Mark - 1%
I have given you the 1% because I guess that just meant one less argument with a believer with overly promotional hubs
But, on the whole, it really makes no difference to me. Mark's care factor - zero
The lesson was there for you to learn all along. The fact that you chose to learn it benefited you a lot more than it did me.
Another case in point:
You are well aware that I do not believe, need or want your god's blessing. Yet you chose to bless me in her name.
Not for me. If there was a god, whether you have blessed me or not would make no difference.
You blessed me for your benefit. To display your caring, Christian "love" towards me.
I don't care - it means nothing to me. In fact, it may even be that you were hoping to annoy me?Can't respond to my comment though ?
lol
Lots of unanswered comments on these religion forums.
And the only answer is always the same:
I believe. Therefore it is true. This is proof. Therefore I believe.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's an interesting thought:
The Universe is 13 billion years old. (give or take)
The idea of the Christian God has been around for 2,000 years (give or take.)
Doesn't take a genius to draw any conclusions from that does it?
Drop in the bucket comes to mindYou know Mark, I respect you, I really do.
You could have told this guy that he was a "tool" in the hands of the laws of this universe but you didn't. Such comments don't even come from your keyboard.
I respect that.
Hell, your more "christian" than they are.
Also, their god as we both know will go the way of Jupiter and Minerva and the rest so who cares? Yep, those gods have this nasty way of dieing, which is why nuclear weapons should never have been proliferated...
LOL
Fiat is just as ugly and stupid now as it was at the dawn of humanity. Thank you for politely pointing that out to all interested parties.
Why believe? Because God says so.
Can you prove your God exists?
No definitive proof is possible
So why do you believe?
Because God says so.
So any other explanations?
Nah, not really, it is supernatural so you have to be open to it in order to feel it.
Why do I have to be open to it in order to feel it?
Because God says so.
Some people never learn to quit playing the above mental form of ring around the rosie. Circular logic is really cute (not!). They will insult, violate, hurt, maim, kill, torture, deprive, mutilate, and attack, all because they don't want to deal with any idea other than the force of their own through fiat.
It is so odd that if everyone engages in stupidity then the definition of smart yields through ad populum arguements manifesed in typical social constructs to come out something like "If you don't believe the smart like us then you must be stupid".
Poor Nietsche.
History has an odd way of repeating itself, hopefully Nietsche's time period won't come back in my lifetime, a time period where the sane were deemed insanse because most people were too stupid to allow that they might be wrong.
A million one handed stupid people will always overwhelm one guy armed to the teeth through sheer numbers. Psychologically and socially, it is no different.
One of the main reasons I will never "believe in humanity" is because of this phenomenon right here and the resulting "who gives a sh##" attitude that arises from it. Honest people, caring people, genuine people, all those I will believe in the form of family, friends, aquaintances, etc. Science I will learn and study, but humanity in general is about as worthlessly illogical as it comes. "God" doesn't improve our ability to see things clearly, it merely re-enforces our own inclination to simplistic stupidity.
Replace the word "God" with the substance "Crack" and for me the picture becomes much clearer. Religion is the best drug ever, because you don't have to pay anyone for it, even though people will pay dearly for it in the end, (including those who believe it).
God for me is also people worshipping themselves and giving that collective worship a name, Fiat.
What I don't get is why people feel the need to worship anything at all. Worshipping yourself is bad enough, but worshipping people who feel the same as you do? Talk about some narcissistic distribution at work. There is no need to worship anything, including the perceived illusion of the "need" itself.
Another example:
Why does your god exist?
Because I say so.
Well your "say so" better have more battalions than my "say so".
We will see, my god is pretty awesome too!
^^^^
Brief history of warfare in four sentences.
My thoughts for everyone to read.
P.S.
In my honest opinion the only real reason smart people do not wipe out the stupid people, is because that would be stupid. Better to sit back and let the morons wipe each other out and enjoy the show, then those left standing can breathe a heavy sigh of relief that it is finally over (religious people kill each other because they insist on social darwinism?). I most definitely won't be alive to breathe that sigh, that I am wagering. Or perhaps the smart people can setup an outpost on Mars in the near future before the stupid people wipe everyone out?
Who knows, the possibilities are endless (so they say). With God supposedly, everything is possible, but somehow just not permitted (sarcasm)?
When God gets drunk you end up with everything being permitted, and then you wind up with Old Scratch (the devil).
Hows about somethings not being possible, and more things than that not being permitted, while furthermore some things are just flat out dubious and not to be taken seriously until evidence presents itself to the contrary?
"If people used reason, there would be no religion".
Zarm - I have found it unproductive to respond in kind lol
Andrew - I am still waiting for a response to the TRUTH that your love and forgiveness are selfish and for your own personal satisfaction rather than that you do love me
In the meantime:
- sandra rinckposted 16 years ago0
With respect to Jewel, Zarm, she is not a hateful person nore did she intend to insult Jenny, all she was saying is the what she precieves as truth in "her" life is the truth for her just as your is for you, also, she's not a Christain, not all people who follow Jesus are Christains, though theologist or whatever would have you say that they are, but not true.
Anyways, I just wanted to say that cause Jewel is very sweet and means well all the time. I will agree with Sandra on that.
SJ means well, which is why I don't attack her the same way I attack some of the christian zealotsAnd I third this
In fact Sandy was faster to post on the matter, while I was still thinking how to say itJenny, I am sorry that what I said, you heard as something hurtful. I could only say what I could say from what I saw and remembered and where I was at in that moment. With the emotional input you responded with, it was obvious I had made a mistake in perception...and as you so insightfully said, it was "something in me". I would say "up for healing/awareness" to be looked at and dealt with. I have had to take this time to sort it out.
My ditto response was a mixture of emotions; there were so many points of my limited perceptions of you and myself that appeared to be similar. I was too emotional to comfortably respond...let alone "match" your strength of logic point by point. I don't like defending myself and emotions, I like to sort them out and bring them to harmony, so I withdraw.
I withdrew also because I do respect you so highly and appreciate your abilities and who I have perceived you to be and didn't want to make things worse. Even though my "booger" (my badly hurt inner child that defends out of pride with anger, from remembered pain) couldn't keep from saying something...Old response from dealing with my brothers
It was "that time of the month" for me, and that is when I do my deepest "dumpster diving" I am so grateful for things you said because they helped me to untie some more of the Gordian Knot of my psychology and deepest soul pains. I too, suffer from that core pain of not being recognized as my real self, a person of worth, love and kindness. In that moment, "portions of soul memory" of you and Mark, were "representing/tying in" to my soul memory my oldest sister and brothers that were really out of touch with their feelings (after all, we were all under the age of 20!). She was very emotionally abusive to me, she the oldest and me the youngest of six children...I was the scapegoat and the butt of all problems and jokes. Plus I had three brothers that were her choir, and constantly reinforced that and resulted in half of the problems i had with males since. Double whammy!(at the least!)
If it wasn't for all of you coming back and saying that I was a kind and sweet soul, and accepting me in my imperfection, I was ready to quit the HubPages (just like I quit my family)...because all I could feel was worthlessness in myself. This past week and a half has been excruciating on that level...but I have emerged from the darkness and come out the other side...in part thanks to all of you and partly because i was also able to continue with some "adult" actions (like, I bought my first brand new automobile AND I have been dealing with the health situation with my oldest son...he has been having seizures the past few months)... this spring has been a real challenge.
I do believe we are all healers, even in our imperfections, and especially because of the forgiveness and acceptance.
so sorry if it makes anyone uncomfortable my spilling my "guts" like this...and if you still have any sort of "beef" with me, I am back to center and will deal with it.
This is a lot less expensive than one on one therapy and personal enough to do me some good
with much love,
Jewel
- Zarm Nefilinposted 16 years ago0
Then nothing bad comes of it, I just get protective that is all.
SJ if you are reading this, I took it the wrong way, no harm intended. I am sorry.
And yes Mark, as far as guys like Andrew or mohit are concerned it is better to not respond in kind, right you are.
Easier said than done for me though lol. Andrew, in just a few exchanges you have beautifully demonstrated one of my major issues with your brand of religion
:
1. You were behaving in an obnoxious fashion that contravened the rules of the site.
2. I called you on it and flagged your hub that was breaking the TOS.
3. You took offense and decided that I was being an a**hole.
4. You decided to show me "love and forgiveness"
5. You learned what was and was not acceptable here.
6. Benefit to Andrew - 100%
7. Benefit to Mark - 1%
8. You then brag about how loving and forgiving you are, how perfect your life is and condescendingly say that the world would be a better place if everyone just followed your rules and way of being. (see #3)
9. I call you to answer the fact that the only one benefiting from this "love and forgiveness" was you. Which makes it pretty selfish. Quite apart from the fact that I was not in the wrong in the first place and did not need "love and forgiveness"
10. You respond and appear to think that despite the fact that I was the one helping you - you are the one that was displaying the love and affection.
All you see is right there in front of your face.
It's called hypocrisy
Happy hubbing right back at ya
Zarm - that better?I think I agree to Andrew here
Yes, it is selfish - in the sense that every self-improvement is selfish. At the same time it is altruistic in the same sense.
And yes, if everybody choose to be happy, the World would be a happy place. Not to make others happy, but to be happy him/herself. And actually I believe this is the only possible way to make this place happierI need forgiveness, I don't know what I did, but I am pretty sure I did something. Can I get some forgiveness please?
You are forgiven.
Twice. Just in case the first one didn't take hold.
And absolved from further need for forgiveness for the rest of your life.Why thank you Brotha, now I can rest easy.
I forgive you, too
And, I still care what people think of me, and yes, if I step on somebody's foot unintentionally I feel a need to be forgivenAhhh. That would be where we diverge.
I don't care what anyone thinks of me - with a few exceptions.
You are actually on that list
I can't say I feel a need to be forgiven except where I feel like I screwed up badly.
Which happens - occasionally......
--------------
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Anyboby? (seen in the title)
That must be a spelling mistake.
Anyway, I should forgiveMis-smellings are automatically forgiven and an appropriate amount of love shown the sinner.
You did good. I was just going with it
I don't think we are too far away
- sandra rinckposted 16 years ago0
- sandra rinckposted 16 years ago0
Ok all is forgiven now, I decided after the water came back that it was all good!
Hi Sandra, I just want to say I have come across your that GOD hub and especially the comments section. I'm yet to read the article detailed, though I would say I liked it as far as I had a rough look over it. It's my sleep time, in India. I will be posting my comment in your hub sooner. See you
Life can be soooo cosmic! similar astrological configurations I can understand...holograms you'll have to explain
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