Should I Forgive Anyboby? This is an interesting and common question in our daily life. You might been hurted so bad that you did swear never to forgive as long as you're alive seeing that person. When people hurt us, we have a tendency to become bitter but I've strongly observed the negative effect of bitterness to a man's health, so bad than a poison. We should forgive anybody no matter what the offence may be.... Please let go, it is for your good. I'm not trying to be religious because this will keep you healthy and full of sound mind.
I love an interesting story by Jesus in the book of Matthew 18:21-36. You will observe how a master forgave and freed a servant for what he owed him and this servant nearly strangled a fellow servant for a little he owed him, what a life!! No matter your religion, The worst side of it is, if you die now having someone locked up in your heart under unforgiveness....Eternal life and peace will elude you, it doesn't matter if you're a pastor, bishop or any religious leader having signs and wonders perfomed through you, of course you're not the doer, you're just a channel of God's glory. He can even use a stone.
It's easy and the grace to forgive is always available in you and through you. Give thanks in all things and Love! In them dwell the greatest virtue and power in the universe!
Only if the person is deserving for forgiveness and means sorry.Some mistake kindness for weakness and take advantage of it.Eventually even if I forgive it does not matter as god decides on the karmic consequences which is only going to help make that person a better person.Rather everything hs been destined.
I have written these couplets.
Who am I to give?
Who am I to forgive?
The binding force is love,
The symbol being a white dove.
The other aspect is all is you.
That's a serious one Andrew.
I'm with you on this. I too think that unforgiving hurts the person who does not forgive, not the offender.
However, our culture is based on eye-for-eye principle. We think it is just and beneficial. And while it is relatively easy for most of us to forgive somebody who stepped on our foot, forgiving somebody who raped your daughter or killed your mother seems to be impossible for a regular human being and available only to saints...
Funny, just yesterday or the day before I was talking to Sandy on one of her hubs that forgiveness conflicts with the whole body of criminal law
We were just yesturday. Funny how these things go eh?
Our culture was an eye for an eye.
Surely in 2000 years we have had time to change our culture.
I have to agree the not forgiving is a health issue and you should do everything in your self to change your mindset.
I have learned that it is good to forgive the Soul of the person for having committed the offense against you, otherwise you will have the sin/karma of nonforgiveness which can lead you to commit offenses in retaliation (it leaves you vulnerable to the evil forces to try to control you to commit offenses in return...that's how "evil" keeps the world in chaos and dis-harmony)
It wasn't the Real God Self/Soul (that is pure and holy) of that person that committed the offense but the not self soul/evil to whatever degree. That person is still responsible to pay the price for the offense.
If you forgive the Soul of the person you are not forgiving the offense, but leaving it up to God's/Universal Law to bring that karma (cause and effect) onto that person. That's what the Bible means when it says pass no judgment on another, for that is God's job. Surrender it to God, for God's Law is just, in God's time. But if it is against the laws of man, than you must report it as well.
You will know when you have truly forgiven...it doesn't mean you still have to be involved with that person. But as long as you have not truly forgiven...you are karmically in-twined and it can make you sick as Andrew said, from anger and emotional pain. You are hurting yourself and the other person.
When you can forgive, you are released from the tie and the pain and anger and it is left on the other person's doorstep...you are free to move on.
Forgiving is fine so long as we don't forget. If someone shows the capacity to hurt you once, they may do it again. I don't think there's anything wrong with being a little more guarded against that person after they commit the first offense.
Wisdom is profitable to direct regarding dealing with fellow men, someone who offended you may come up to do even worst to the first offence but the problem there is "taking the offence" It disables our inner ability and virtue to remain sound in everything. It's deadly to the bones and marrows. Just let go all, forgive and dwell in LOVE, once done, you will be empowered with divine abilities and ideas to deal wisely with the issues of life and dwell in perfect peace and joy. Believe this truth, when you forgive you will stand a champion all the time despite who is against you, it will not work!....It's so POWERFUL in it's realities.
Assuming you are still alive that is lol Some "offences" are greater than others.
You are talking presumably about minor offences - nothing serious.
You forgive the man that rapes and murders your 3-year-old daughter - right?
You LOVE him? It is so POWERFUL - your love for that man
And in answer to the question that you already have THE CORRECT answer for -
Well, that's why I said it is serious. I tend to think that yes, I should forgive and love. At the same time I know I am not going to forgive. And I know that if I were to forgive, the people around would think I am crazy - at best. This is the thing I am wrestling with for quite some time already...
Misha, did you read my previous post here? Do you connect with any or it? Could it, may I, be helpful with your "wrestling" in any way?
I agree. But, why do you think you should forgive him?
And can you ever do so? Unlikely - in your heart of hearts, it will be all but impossible to genuinely love this person.
Forgiveness makes perfect sense - sometimes.
We have all felt the benefit when we forgive some one. Felt the weight lift when we forgive our best friend for stealing that girl we fancied or advising us on a bad investment. Just let it go and forgiven. We feel much better.
But the same does not apply to a bigger transgression. That's why there are lynching parties and thousands of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan at the moment. The Christian thing to do was go kick ass - the entire US felt better - for a while.
Once you realize you are as important as a grain of sand on the beach and the only thing you can ever hope to do is improve yourself in the ways that make sense deep down. Being true to yourself is one of those, and pretending to forgive some one for raping and murdering your 3 year old isn't reasonable to try to achieve. You will go crazy - You might as well try to walk on water
This is why the bible is full of such a lot of contradictions.
Sometimes you should forgive, some times you should string them up from the nearest tree.
Just like God does.
It all depends which makes you feel better
SJ - Your explanation makes no sense to me either I'm afraid.
As usual, I can only speak from my own experiences and interpretations...
I still don't see that the bible has contradictions...a person just needs to understand that each instance was that instance and the instance of a particular individual's perspective...let alone the interpretations of the centuries and the language.
And most importantly the ability to reach deeply into oneself for stability in the Unity with the Universe, and find the major blocks to that sense of Unity. I perceive, Mark, you have not done that yet, or at least not come to acceptance (what i call surrender to Universal Law) of certain pains from the past.
I don't know if the examples that have been stated are the facts of the matter (rape and death) we are talking about...but I have had some traumas that run deep as well.
My own sanity was in danger and I feel that I was guided to the answers I needed, once I surrendered. But the surrender was not initially to God, as I knew at that moment, but was a "giving up" on control of my life. I believed I had nothing, was nothing and had no reason for being...but had already in previous years tried suicide, found I knew that wasn't my deepest desire, so gave up instead.
In retrospect, it was a giving up on life, that I had already gotten to a certain point about because of life traumas, and this "giving up" was the only next step that I had been unwilling to take...it took the only good man I had ever loved to die an accidental death shortly after the birth of our child, for me to "give in" to Universal control.
I have spent the following decades seeking understanding and fulfillment of my place in the Universal scheme of things, and though I comprehend that to a degree now, I STILL have to deal with the memories and emotions from the past, in cycles of the spiral. Pain lessens about some things, and some things have totally healed and/or dissolved. But this happened only because I was willing to learn and accept the "ways" of Universal Order/Law...God.
Even that acceptance is still changing, because my perception and understanding changes, but the main point is that I have a point of "ultimate contact/belief" that is stable, as all the other continues to "whirl about" from time to time
should forgive can be an ok way of saying what would be best for one to do. Of more importance, I think, is the whole spiritual understanding of forgiveness...Mark, I think you don't have that, you have seemingly(from my limited perspective) cut yourself off from higher understanding by, IMHO, not believing in God with it's psychological purpose, soul, feelings, emotions, dealing with the not self, inner family healing, etc...
People in the world have accepted basically one of the two kinds of "God". Personal or impersonal. I think because I can accept both, as they are relevant/needed, is why I feel whole and purposeful in life.
There is an impersonal aspect of God, the natural way things work for the best (the original Creation) without any control by a God force to manipulate things...an order of how things work was created and when people get out of the "flow" of that "natural order" things get out of whack. Mostly the eastern viewpoints of "God".
The personal aspect of God, in a mostly western viewpoint, still believes there is an order (a original Creation) but that this God the Father is in a "human kind of control", i.e., if a person does something bad, God the human father slaps him for punishment....instead of a person being able to see and learn about how they didn't using their Energy in flow with the natural order correctly, objectively, they believe they are punished for being bad and are separated from God.
Seeing a difference between sin and karma instead of seeing them as the same, objectively and then correcting. A great majority of humanity has lost touch with their "highest guidance" that is in the "flow" with the natural order of Creation, and has chosen human perception and judgment over seeing and recognizing the "natural order".
Am I explaining the difference between viewpoints, well? We have a God Self "divine Self" and a human self...that is the important foundation of belief, then spiritual forgiveness can be learned and understood and accepted only after that.
But there is much in between to get sorted out...and that is the individual part, but there are paths for wholeness with tools for deconstructing/healing/dissolving the mis-creations and ability to build/re-create Self as a basic skeletal structure which the individual fills in to create the full form (using the human form as metaphor)
This is drawing a VERY long bow, Sparkling Jewel. I cannot agree that the only path to higher understanding, feelings, emotions, inner family healing, dealing with not self and so on is through the belief in a supernatural deity.
I have had some dramatic and miraculous progress in that whole realm without ever once believing in God.
Heck, I don't even believe in my own existence!
I don't think that an atheist is necessarily limited in their understanding of forgiveness at all. Or in their spirituality.
You may find that the language of religion gives you a useful way to describe the processes to yourself, and therefore some guidance about how to progress. The same information is available in non-religious language, too, and for others the non-religious language is far more effective.
I find that if I have a concept, then i can understand what religious people mean when they talk about it, but if it's a concept I don't have yet, I am never going to sort the nugget of spiritual truth out from the morality tales and meaningless drivel about ancient fairy stories.
I much prefer to develop a spiritual concept from reading widely across many religions and distilling common elements, or by reading scientific research and mapping those findings on to what I imagine that would be like as a personal experience. Once I have clarified the concept and verified it through my own experience, I can then translate it into religious language and discuss it amicably with religious people.
Religion would never be a good starting point for me. It's nice that it is for you, but don't assume that because it is the path for you, then anyone on a different path is therefore lost.
Please read again what I wrote...did I say I thought the "only path" to higher understanding is my way? No...I said "in my humble opinion" "from my limited perspective" did I see Mark a certain way. I didn't say anything about someone being lost...you said that.
I perceive that you and Mark respond to my perceptions from your own perception/definitions of what "spiritual" means, of what "God" means...from your own experiences.
Jenny, I think you and Mark both "do protest too much", about what I am trying to get at and others too sometimes, when we talk about God. And that continues to lead me to believe that there is something deeper to be understood.
I go on feeling and perception (which I can't begin to explain...it is my life experience only). IMHO, I feel you both sometimes get "stuck in the intellectual" and your souls are not accepting of, understanding of, wanting of, a perception of "God" that I experience and others experience who don't have a "difficulty" loving/allowing a sense of "God" in their life.
And because my sense is "beyond" human perception and definition, I can't explain it...so that always leaves an opening for your intellectual mind to say "see, you can't prove it, so its not real", and you can feel that you are right and I am wrong, and go your merry way another day.
But I feel deeper soul awareness... No one is right, no one is wrong...I just feel/see what I feel/see.
My deeper soul awareness, like yours, is wrapped up in human layers to be peeled back and exposed, or not, we have free will. I desire to expose pain...the dark side..for its unreality and work it out. It is interesting and emotional for me to perceive things in others that they don't see or don't want to see...I don't know when to say something and when not to say something...I am learning.
I completely understand what you mean Jewel. I love you, God bless you, you know. You were my first fan and I think you are great.
I love you too!
I really like you new profile picture...what a beautiful smile what heart and soul of love you are!
ain't it a bitch to not be able to express the most beautiful things in your life to share with others? God...what a word...creates so much anger and so much love...it just amazes me people survive each other at all.
Goodnight my dear...much love and peace
Good morning Jewel, love and peace,
Yes, it is a bitch to not be able to express these things. I am certain however that the anger that people feel when the word God is mentioned can only come from the many years of genicide, war, violence etc. associated with the name of God. It's tragic but...I am always amazed at how well the Bible and other holy books or codex or text, mimic life, contradictions and all, I do believe that the 'word' is correct and litteral in the sense that humanity has not changed much since the begining of man, why???
My best guess is to say, because it was spoken and it all will come to pass.
One question I do ponder a bit about on is...
Are we happening to the Bible or is the Bible happening to us?
Now you have lumped me in with Mark as though my perception of spirituality is like his and unlike yours, and you have grossly misprepresented me, just as you have grossly misrepresented Mark.
There is obviously something going on inside you, some past experience you are remembering with a person who was very intellectual and not in touch with their emotions, because I am reasonably sure you would be the only one posting on this forum to describe me in that way.
I have two people in my life, who are very close to me, for whom thinking and feeling are indistinguishable, and I assure you that they have educated me thoroughly. II understand completely what it is like to intellectualise, I did it almost exclusively for the first 35 years of my life, and that is not how I operate now.
I am sad that you see me through such a filter. I have my own childhood emotional baggage, and having people interacting with me but not seeing the real me is very painful for me.
When you write something like that and you are so far removed from the reality of my experience, it sounds incredibly arrogant, as though you are saying that you know me better than I know myself.
I have a girlfriend who is very intuitive, and it took her a long time to learn that while her feeling was usually based in something real, her interpretation of what that something might be was at least 50% of the time totally wrong. She had to learn to separate the initial feeling from her thoughts on what it might mean, and then ask questions of people to get more information before leaping to conclusions.
Before she started to learn that, she was sometimes very hurtful to me because she would insist that she "knew" I was feeling XYZ and if I disagreed she would say that I just wasn't self-aware enough yet to realise she was right. What you just posted here was reminiscent of those interactions.
The person you describe in that post is not recognisable as me. And I have enough life experience by now not to doubt my own perceptions of who I am and how I operate.
Feel free to have whatever perceptions of me you choose to have, but if they are not at least reasonably aligned with my own perceptions then we will not be able to converse meaningfully on the topic of me.
ditto to you and your perception of me
Wow, amazing how you summed up all you felt and thought about Jenny in one sentence which was merely a pathetic attempt at non reflective psychological projection. Instead of trying to be humble about it and realize that she took it as an insult you reduced everything she said down to one sentence. Instead of apologizing for basically telling her you know her better than she knows herself, you arrogantly refuse to address the issue and instead accuse her of doing the same thing. This in essence means you are being mean and trying to bullshit her.
You sure as hell are not bullshitting me.
This demonstrates to me that you have no argueable superiority of position at all, due to the very fact that you failed to communicate and instead returned the perceived "tit" for "tat".
An eye for an eye is obviously what you are interested in (to use "spiritual terminology").
It is just amazing how you can have the arrogance to equate what you said about Jenny to what Jenny said about you and then try to claim some sort of "highground" in response to Mark, by saying you are "grateful for continued learning and not being stuck". If you are ditto-ing Jenny and equating what Jenny is saying with what Mark is saying, then How can you be "grateful for continued learning and not being stuck".
GG Cognitive Dissonance.
Why not just try to understand stuff? Arrogance usually gets in the way of understanding other people, and even if you do not agree with them, at least make an effort to apologize when you cross certain boundaries. You can call this Pride, or whatever you want, but it is what it is and you are clearly expressing it.
I sincerely hope that if/when scientists find a way to prolong the lifespan of the average human by a few thousand years or something, they keep that formula away from believers in any "deity" or "spiritual realm" or "otherworldly consciousness", because afterall if you've got God you don't need that because you'll be alive after your dead anyway.
Can't agree with you SJ.
The only "psychological purpose" of believing in god is as a crutch.
Once you can accept the "natural order" of things, there is no need for this fiction. No matter how much better it makes you feel in the short term.
I feel no need to judge the natural order as you do. I feel no need to imagine there is a "higher guidance" that comes from a god and I have lost touch with it.
All I do is look inside and allow myself to connect to the life around me. All the guidance I need is there.
I do not need to imagine that there are souls in limbo in need of my prayer. In fact, if this is the case, there is no natural order to things whatsoever
Forgiveness is an internal need. I will feel better if I "forgive" the murderer of my child as he sits in the electric chair lol
What that really means is to let it go, accept it and not dwell on it for the rest of your life. Hard to do when your 3 year old daughter was raped and murdered. If not impossible.
You should not forgive some one because it is the right thing to do. There is no right and wrong in my philosophy. There just is.
The contradictions in the bible that you are prepared to convince yourself do not exists if you believe are easily explained. Sometimes you should forgive them because it makes you feel better. Sometimes you should turn them into a pillar of salt because that will make you feel better. Depending
Not sure why you think I have lost touch with my feelings, emotions etc. And I do not have a "not self" lol My "not self" is right here with my "true self" - They often have a discussion amongst themselves and let me know the outcome. Just because they have come to the conclusion that there is not a god and find it funny that people need to believe in a god to make themselves feel better doesn't mean they are wrong.
Having said that, I agree that people have cut themselves off from the "natural order." Buying new cars and spending all day on the internet are just some of the ways we do that.
Definitely "should" in the meaning of "have to" is not the best word here. Of course I have no obligation to do so. But - based on the body of literature I read and my own thoughts and life experience - I know that doing so will benefit me, people around me, and the Universe as a whole. Even in the extreme case of rape and murder. I am not capable of doing this, though, in such an extreme case. Come on, I can't even forgive some fellow hubbers whose only sin is posting something I disagree with
I forgive everything, holding on to grudges doesn't do anything for me. Plus, I can always find a reason to forgive, but it doesn't mean I don't feel.
If someone ever hurt my kid, I would want to kill that person, seriously, I would hate them to death but...I know the consequences of life and even when I feel hate or anger, I always remember that in the sense I think about, it isn't thier fault.
It's life in general. I can show someone love by keeping them away from me.
That sounds all fine and good but we dwell within the real world. It can be both a beautiful and terrible place at the same time, it all depends on the scenario that you're in. I completely advocate forgiveness but to completely ignore and disregard what someone has done to you in the past is foolish and hazardous. I'd rather be slightly cautious and alive, than completely naive and dead.
I strongly believe in forgiving when it directly or possibly benefits me. If there is no gain (emotional, mental, physical), I will refuse. I will not betray my own thoughts and feelings in order to collect some invisible karma-chips to be cashed in at a later date.
Don't get me wrong. I know many believe that forgiveness is essential to their faith, whether they consider it in terms of karma, heavenly rewards, or what-have-you. That's fine if it's your and your faith's truth. It isn't my truth though.
Forgetting is conceptual ... unless you're talking about a minor offence like your brother borrowing your shirt without asking, then it's effortless to forget. When it comes to a friend's betrayal, etc. and worse, you won't forget. You'd be pretty daft to try or want to forget. I approach forgetting like my hick neighbor from childhood. After an argument in which threats were exchanged between Sam and the man who lived across the road, Sam painted an eyeball on his wellhouse facing the neighbor's home. He painted under it, "I got my EYE on you."
(For those of you wondering how the conflict worked out - Sam spent a few days in the county jail after shooting arrows from his porch at the neighbor, who was on his riding mower at the time. Sam was given a slap on the wrist because he had taken out the blades from the arrows ... and yes, I was raised amongst hicks, on a farm in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains, where crazy, long bearded, cover-all wearing men are the norm instead of the exception. On the plus side, I recognize and understand many of the characters in the works of Faulkner and O'Connor)
There is a difference between "should forgive" and "can forgive".
There's a great book called "How Can I Forgive You?" - I forget the author's name. It started because she was working with couples after an affair, but broadened to things like forgiving the person who abused you as a child, and so on.
She makes a very good point about "false forgiveness", which is where people think they "should" forgive, and they "forgive" too soon, suppressing their anger and resentment rather than resolving it.
Forgiveness is a process, not a moment's action, and the decision to forgive only begins the process.
She also makes the excellent point that you can't really forgive someone who is unrepentant or shallowly sorry (as for example, the alcoholic is, when they are all weepy and apologetic, but everyone knows full well tomorrow night they will be doing it all over again).
True forgiveness requires true repentance.
If you don't have that from the perpetrator, the best you can accomplish is acceptance.
Yes, on the spiritual level we all love one another's spirits, but our human part has to deal with the human loss and seeing Fred's human smirking face in the dock at the trial.
Our spiritual self has ALREADY forgiven Fred's spiritual self, or in fact no forgiveness is required since spirits suffer no harm. Our spiritual self and Fred's spiritual self are having a tea party while our human selves glare at one another across the courtroom.
Yes, I agree with Jenny, in retrospect on my own experiences, that is what I have experienced as well...forgiving is just the beginning of the process of healing completely.
and this is where the concept of surrender (that I understand) begins, and apparently where its seems different for all people. I found the ability to give it to/surrender it to God and "saints of heaven" while I worked it out in the process of forgiveness and dealing with psychology of the "inner family".
But, initially, I had to loose the man I loved to be "brought to my knees" so to speak to surrender. It is metaphor for the letting go of the control, control from fear brought on by pain, pain from previous experiences in life.
Of course I did. I don't always reply or quote, but I always read all what you have to say on these forums
But this one does not resonate with me, at least not yet, sorry
A discussion on a true self indeed. Every body is coming up with true heart, from the deepest of the heart. Ahaha!!!
What a wonderful spirit!!!
Everything is possible. Christ has shown the path by forgiving who crucified him.
In Indian context we know Lord Mahaveera forgave Sangama,chandakaushika and the cow-boy; Gautama, the Buddha forgave Angulimala,the cruel murderer.
We, first have to believe in the strength of forgiving. It needs less to win a battle than to win own anger and ego.
We need to practice, practice and practice ...not one life is enough...we have to continue to attain that stage. If someone alredy achieved..The greatest!!!!!
Someone trying to Great!!!
Do the rightful and fear no one. If the people think u crazy let them think. Just do your work. Just believe in the philosophy and practice.....
Thanks to all believing and practicing.....
It's naturally hard to forgive and easily love one another despite their differences. Man as a spirit has the ability to make right or wrong choices in life. It is a discovery and that was why I indicated earlier that wisdom is profitable to direct in dealing with issues like this because unforginess will breed strife and bitterness, capable of destroying the good functionalities of a business, family etc.
Spiritually, I discovered that strife and bitterness are evil seeds that are very much capable of destroying homes, businesses and ones soul which is the doorway of the Spirit man. People could be funny! But use wisdom to handle their craftiness and deceit.
Let go, forgive and dwell in Love. That really makes you a god.
You r really inspiring and in my opinion in the right and noble path. Everywhere there is an opposite.So in the spirituality. One has to believe, experience the duality of life ,duality of the universe.
It is difficult to concieve opposite qualities in the same space time.
Let us take an example:
U r, surely daughter of a mother and may be mother of a daughter. So, in you, existing the opposites. You r a mother for a daughter and in the same time a daughter for a mother.
When we start accepting,experiencing and acting upon it, there is no clash. All the clashes are uprroted.This is the perfect forgiveness from the deepest of the heart and mind and the soul itself.
It is perfectly divine.
It can be achieved by devoting oneself or by finding owm roots within.
In my opinion, may not hurt any, Sprkling is well in path, chosen to devote/surrender and u too, choosen the opposite.
The better i find in u that ur accepting his path where as Sparkling is denying u . May knowing not, is , denying his path.
Forgive, if hurt. Help each other in the noble path of love, forgive and perfection.
It's the job of god to forgive but not me. Being honest -some things are unforgivable. On the other hand, I am not going infect my consciousness with the negatives that someone else is responsible for. I don't forgive - I forget, if I can't get even wherever possible, with as little
of my precious time as possible. And if it is a personal affront - they owe me.
All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
We should be able to forgive one another as Christ forgives us. It can be extremely hard to think about a situation, and wonder how in the heck can we forgive this person. Although Even Christ has forgiven murderers, drug dealers, and thieves. Perhaps our sins seem not as great as those but he forgives us none the less just he he forgives them of their sins. Forgive and try to forget or at least let God take your heart and mind to another dwelling place so that bitterness and hatred does not get stored there. Good Luck and God Bless.
Of course I believe in forgiveness but it's not easy. We have to train ourselves to respond differently to what our survival instincts tell us. This takes a long time.
Looking inside and realizing that all of us are capable of darkness as we are all capable of lightness is a way to begin to understand and forgive another.
I am a pacifist and have taken a vow to not kill sentient beings. Do I still have the capacity to kill someone deep inside? Of course I do. Humans are animals and we do have those instincts and urges.
People kill bugs all the time without a second thought, yet a lot of people revere dogs and treat them like family. Why?
We made a choice to separate certain things in our brains. To feel that some things are fine to kill and others not. Yet the instinct to kill is still there under the surface. We have the ability to choose. Choice is ever present in all our emotional dealings with others.
We are all capable of what another person would call an "unforgivable act". Each of has a different definition of what an "unforgivable act" would be.
When you start to meditate on these contradictions and really get honest with yourself about what you could do if pushed to the brink, then and only then can you begin to see how it is possible to forgive another.
Forgiveness doesn't mean the other person gets off scot free though. Murderers should go to jail. Actions have consequences. Forgiving doesn't mean that person has to stay in your life either. It simply means you do the hard work to forgive and learn about yourself in the process.
Forgiveness is an internal experience not an external experience. IMHO.
Thanks Misha. I try.
Meditating on these things are the only way I can begin to feel forgiveness. Realizing my imperfect nature allows me to accept the imperfect nature of those around me.
Doesn't mean my first thought isn't anger and pain but this seems to subside quicker the more you practice. It's certainly getting better for me and easier to let go.
Something that years ago I could not forgive, I can now come to acceptance on in a few days.
Forgiveness follows acceptance. It's like a natural progression. When someone hurts me now I try to think of all the times I have hurt people, sometimes unintentionally, sometimes intentionally (we all have these experiences). I go back through my life and take stock of my transgressions and how they appeared to others and hurt others. In this way I can start to understand the darkness in the person who has hurt me. As it is the same darkness that we all have inside, we just choose to express it differently.
Everyone has the capacity to change for the better or for the worse. Our life is a struggle mired in these choices. I make a concerted effort to choose the light but sometimes the dark still wins. After all, I am certainly not enlightened yet! Lol.
Your so harsh sometimes Mark. You know, I think it is really cool that you find your tune in nature of whatever life is and it makes you happy and sets you free or as free as you can be, but golly gee willikers, why give so much guff to people who do believe in God, they don't effect you, or do they?
I mean, Sunday door knockers do, and preachers do, but come on...I know of course that you think it is fine if someone choses God and doesn't impose on you, but sometimes it does seem like you do intentionally antagonize people for believeing in God.
I think you believe in God, you just wont admit it. LOL. Ok, fine maybe you don't but I am gonna start a rumor that says you do. hahahahaha.
ps. No, I wont really do that, it might hurt your reputation. Cheers!
You know, when I was a teen, I had awful fights with my father. We had heated arguments for hours easily over absolutely insignificant things. And then came my mom and told us - OK, now, why don't you guys compare your definitions first. And more often than not it appeared we were using the same words to denote completely different things...
I suspect it is the case here, too
I mean between Mark and Jewel.
'golly gee willikers, why give so much guff' - Love this one.
'Who is free from all bondage of instincts and emotions, filled with etternal love and forgiveness' - sounds like a machine if not boring, or is it some vacation paradise?
Nice view.Very good perception.Humble submission will acheve the goal. Bound to achieve.
Everyone here is a loving one.Full of spirituality and etternal love.
With regards to the great soul(S)
At the risk of having Jenny lumped in with me, I agree with what she is saying here.
As you may have noticed, I tend to respond to people in the tone to which I perceive myself to have been spoken to. From my perspective, you make so many judgments about me, and have decided already what I do or don't believe and what I am capable of.
And have also decided I am -
"not accepting of, understanding of, wanting of, a perception of "God" that I experience and others experience who don't have a "difficulty" loving/allowing a sense of "God" in their life."
I don't think you appreciate just how condescending this judgment is. Sandra called me harsh when I responded to you in the tone I did, but I responded in the same tone I felt you were talking to me.
It is not quite as offensive as being told I will see no contradictions in the bible if I just allow Jesus Christ to become my personal savior. lol - But it's close.
I have seen and connected with what I think you call god. And I came to some radically different conclusions to the ones you have come to.
Possibly because I connected in a different way from you. My connection came from years of martial arts practice, years of giving myself up to not earning money and just making people feel better as my main goal in life, years of thinking about how much sense all the religions made as a literal interpretation of the way the universe works and years of seeking an answer to the question no one knows.
And I have come to the conclusion that there is no "god,"
I do not need to do anything - or pray for people to help them move on after death - or "forgive" them or "love" everyone. These things, people do for themselves, not for others.
As I tried to explain somewhere else, my definition of love is radically different from other people's. I don't profess to love some one and then tell them their viewpoint is invalid because they have not opened their heart to Jesus, or have "cut yourself off from higher understanding by, IMHO, not believing in God with it's psychological purpose, soul, feelings, emotions, dealing with the not self, inner family healing, etc"
If I love you - I will kill or die for you. I do not believe all the people who profess to "love me" here will do that for me.
The sort of love they actually posses is the sort of love that says:
"I love you so much, I will never speak to you again,"
"I love you so much, I will insist that you believe what I believe."
"I love you so much, I am going to leave you with our 3 children and do my own thing."
"I love you so much, I want to sell you this whatever that will make your life better."
"I love you so much, I am going to beat you until you understand what you did was wrong."
"I love you so much, I am going to fill your head with nonsense."
"I love you so much, I am going to send you away to church school until you understand."
This is the sort of love I can do without.
Life is good and full of choices. There are no problems with your own concepts of life. It's interesting to know that history has recorded great philosophers who never believed in anything but in their own abilities as human but the truth will always stand the test of time even unto everlasting. All you see is not all there's,
Computer internet history cookies and stuff like backups have documented this thread and other activities here...I know for sure that in the next 100 to 200 years to come if the earth remains, some people then will still not believe we actually existed with these discussions rather may attribute them to a mere computer robots and not real.
Forgiveness and Love are not canal (of sensory perception). I remembered when I had my first hub as a new hubber flagged by you, yes it was overly promotional, I immediately felt bad thinking that you should have alerted me before flagging it. Many wrong thoughts tried to penetrate which will result to strife but I refused by accepting to your instructions in love and seeking for help from the moderator/administrator. I never used wrong words or argued, not because i was trying to be religious but the fact that I've a mindset of love that will always refuse these dangerous seeds of Strife and Bitterness. Love and Forgive one another, it's so peaceful, loving, interesting and rewarding. Let your light so shine...
God bless you Mark.
Responses are interesting, you almost never know what they are going to be. It is only logical that you and Jenny agree on what you think you see in what I think I see in you. The mirror of life continues to revolve.
I am grateful for continued learning and not being stuck.
Many Blessings in our continued work on life and for life. Mark, I AM sorry for you that you perceived that I was attacking you in some way.
The soul makes choices to deal with psychology or not, and forgive or not. I AM dealing with my psychology, human and divine, and I AM dealing with forgiveness. I choose to move on and not get too comfortable in unresolved human stuff, I like the challenges of the unknown.
I agree. And you are in for a nasty surprise at some point.
You have managed to completely miss my point. I believe you mean carnal, but I am not going to report you for a smelling mistake.
The point I was making was that "forgiveness" and "love" as you describe them are for the benefit of the forgiver and the lover. Not the benefit of the recipient of those wonderfully twisted uses of the words.
Your next statement adequately re-enforces the point I was making:
See, here's the deal. You "forgave" me and showed me "love"
You learned a lesson from that. You chose to not argue with me and learned something which made you a better person and hubber.
It made no difference to me.
I don't care either way.
Benefit to Andrew - 100%
Benefit to Mark - 1%
I have given you the 1% because I guess that just meant one less argument with a believer with overly promotional hubs
But, on the whole, it really makes no difference to me. Mark's care factor - zero
The lesson was there for you to learn all along. The fact that you chose to learn it benefited you a lot more than it did me.
Another case in point:
You are well aware that I do not believe, need or want your god's blessing. Yet you chose to bless me in her name.
Not for me. If there was a god, whether you have blessed me or not would make no difference.
You blessed me for your benefit. To display your caring, Christian "love" towards me.
I don't care - it means nothing to me. In fact, it may even be that you were hoping to annoy me?
Interesting. Mark, time will surely tell...I'm well convinced you're a tool in God's hand despite your belief now. Change is constant. God's love on you is beyond your immagination and understanding. I do not walk by sight but by faith. Thank you!
Can't respond to my comment though ?
Lots of unanswered comments on these religion forums.
And the only answer is always the same:
I believe. Therefore it is true. This is proof. Therefore I believe.
Here's an interesting thought:
The Universe is 13 billion years old. (give or take)
The idea of the Christian God has been around for 2,000 years (give or take.)
Doesn't take a genius to draw any conclusions from that does it?
Drop in the bucket comes to mind
You know Mark, I respect you, I really do.
You could have told this guy that he was a "tool" in the hands of the laws of this universe but you didn't. Such comments don't even come from your keyboard.
I respect that.
Hell, your more "christian" than they are.
Also, their god as we both know will go the way of Jupiter and Minerva and the rest so who cares? Yep, those gods have this nasty way of dieing, which is why nuclear weapons should never have been proliferated...
Fiat is just as ugly and stupid now as it was at the dawn of humanity. Thank you for politely pointing that out to all interested parties.
Why believe? Because God says so.
Can you prove your God exists?
No definitive proof is possible
So why do you believe?
Because God says so.
So any other explanations?
Nah, not really, it is supernatural so you have to be open to it in order to feel it.
Why do I have to be open to it in order to feel it?
Because God says so.
Some people never learn to quit playing the above mental form of ring around the rosie. Circular logic is really cute (not!). They will insult, violate, hurt, maim, kill, torture, deprive, mutilate, and attack, all because they don't want to deal with any idea other than the force of their own through fiat.
It is so odd that if everyone engages in stupidity then the definition of smart yields through ad populum arguements manifesed in typical social constructs to come out something like "If you don't believe the smart like us then you must be stupid".
History has an odd way of repeating itself, hopefully Nietsche's time period won't come back in my lifetime, a time period where the sane were deemed insanse because most people were too stupid to allow that they might be wrong.
A million one handed stupid people will always overwhelm one guy armed to the teeth through sheer numbers. Psychologically and socially, it is no different.
One of the main reasons I will never "believe in humanity" is because of this phenomenon right here and the resulting "who gives a sh##" attitude that arises from it. Honest people, caring people, genuine people, all those I will believe in the form of family, friends, aquaintances, etc. Science I will learn and study, but humanity in general is about as worthlessly illogical as it comes. "God" doesn't improve our ability to see things clearly, it merely re-enforces our own inclination to simplistic stupidity.
Replace the word "God" with the substance "Crack" and for me the picture becomes much clearer. Religion is the best drug ever, because you don't have to pay anyone for it, even though people will pay dearly for it in the end, (including those who believe it).
God for me is also people worshipping themselves and giving that collective worship a name, Fiat.
What I don't get is why people feel the need to worship anything at all. Worshipping yourself is bad enough, but worshipping people who feel the same as you do? Talk about some narcissistic distribution at work. There is no need to worship anything, including the perceived illusion of the "need" itself.
Why does your god exist?
Because I say so.
Well your "say so" better have more battalions than my "say so".
We will see, my god is pretty awesome too!
Brief history of warfare in four sentences.
My thoughts for everyone to read.
In my honest opinion the only real reason smart people do not wipe out the stupid people, is because that would be stupid. Better to sit back and let the morons wipe each other out and enjoy the show, then those left standing can breathe a heavy sigh of relief that it is finally over (religious people kill each other because they insist on social darwinism?). I most definitely won't be alive to breathe that sigh, that I am wagering. Or perhaps the smart people can setup an outpost on Mars in the near future before the stupid people wipe everyone out?
Who knows, the possibilities are endless (so they say). With God supposedly, everything is possible, but somehow just not permitted (sarcasm)?
When God gets drunk you end up with everything being permitted, and then you wind up with Old Scratch (the devil).
Hows about somethings not being possible, and more things than that not being permitted, while furthermore some things are just flat out dubious and not to be taken seriously until evidence presents itself to the contrary?
"If people used reason, there would be no religion".
Interestingly life is a choice. Strife and Bitterness are fruits of Hate and Unforgiveness, very dirty and harmful to be accomodated in the Human Spirit...I enjoy unending 100% peace daily. It's rewarding to the soul to dwell in absolute love without conditions. It's my eternal choice of glory and power as long as i live here and beyond. Happy hubbing!
Zarm - I have found it unproductive to respond in kind lol
Andrew - I am still waiting for a response to the TRUTH that your love and forgiveness are selfish and for your own personal satisfaction rather than that you do love me
In the meantime:
With respect to Jewel, Zarm, she is not a hateful person nore did she intend to insult Jenny, all she was saying is the what she precieves as truth in "her" life is the truth for her just as your is for you, also, she's not a Christain, not all people who follow Jesus are Christains, though theologist or whatever would have you say that they are, but not true.
Anyways, I just wanted to say that cause Jewel is very sweet and means well all the time.
I will agree with Sandra on that.
SJ means well, which is why I don't attack her the same way I attack some of the christian zealots
And I third this
In fact Sandy was faster to post on the matter, while I was still thinking how to say it
I know SJ means well, which is why I shared with her the emotional impact of her words. I don't generally respond to being misrepresented by sharing how it feels - if the perpetrator is some random person, I just refute their points.
I also know each has their own path. I was disappointed by her response, given how emotionally open I had been, but I know that SJ is genuinely seeking harmony overall in her own way, and there is no benefit to anyone by arguing about her path.
Jenny, I am sorry that what I said, you heard as something hurtful. I could only say what I could say from what I saw and remembered and where I was at in that moment. With the emotional input you responded with, it was obvious I had made a mistake in perception...and as you so insightfully said, it was "something in me". I would say "up for healing/awareness" to be looked at and dealt with. I have had to take this time to sort it out.
My ditto response was a mixture of emotions; there were so many points of my limited perceptions of you and myself that appeared to be similar. I was too emotional to comfortably respond...let alone "match" your strength of logic point by point. I don't like defending myself and emotions, I like to sort them out and bring them to harmony, so I withdraw.
I withdrew also because I do respect you so highly and appreciate your abilities and who I have perceived you to be and didn't want to make things worse. Even though my "booger" (my badly hurt inner child that defends out of pride with anger, from remembered pain) couldn't keep from saying something...Old response from dealing with my brothers
It was "that time of the month" for me, and that is when I do my deepest "dumpster diving" I am so grateful for things you said because they helped me to untie some more of the Gordian Knot of my psychology and deepest soul pains. I too, suffer from that core pain of not being recognized as my real self, a person of worth, love and kindness. In that moment, "portions of soul memory" of you and Mark, were "representing/tying in" to my soul memory my oldest sister and brothers that were really out of touch with their feelings (after all, we were all under the age of 20!). She was very emotionally abusive to me, she the oldest and me the youngest of six children...I was the scapegoat and the butt of all problems and jokes. Plus I had three brothers that were her choir, and constantly reinforced that and resulted in half of the problems i had with males since. Double whammy!(at the least!)
If it wasn't for all of you coming back and saying that I was a kind and sweet soul, and accepting me in my imperfection, I was ready to quit the HubPages (just like I quit my family)...because all I could feel was worthlessness in myself. This past week and a half has been excruciating on that level...but I have emerged from the darkness and come out the other side...in part thanks to all of you and partly because i was also able to continue with some "adult" actions (like, I bought my first brand new automobile AND I have been dealing with the health situation with my oldest son...he has been having seizures the past few months)... this spring has been a real challenge.
I do believe we are all healers, even in our imperfections, and especially because of the forgiveness and acceptance.
so sorry if it makes anyone uncomfortable my spilling my "guts" like this...and if you still have any sort of "beef" with me, I am back to center and will deal with it.
This is a lot less expensive than one on one therapy and personal enough to do me some good
with much love,
Then nothing bad comes of it, I just get protective that is all.
SJ if you are reading this, I took it the wrong way, no harm intended. I am sorry.
And yes Mark, as far as guys like Andrew or mohit are concerned it is better to not respond in kind, right you are.
Easier said than done for me though lol.
Hahaha...It's a mindset thing. I'm not trying to Love and Forgive anyone for any selfish gains, I've already programmed my mind in this direction never to take offence, it's an understanding deep in my heart, the Love of my God at work in my life. It's a choice. I believe HubPages community is oriented in Love. We must shun hate here despite your race, religion or belief. We all learn from one another and it's quite interesting. All you see is not all there is! Happy hubbing!
Andrew, in just a few exchanges you have beautifully demonstrated one of my major issues with your brand of religion :
1. You were behaving in an obnoxious fashion that contravened the rules of the site.
2. I called you on it and flagged your hub that was breaking the TOS.
3. You took offense and decided that I was being an a**hole.
4. You decided to show me "love and forgiveness"
5. You learned what was and was not acceptable here.
6. Benefit to Andrew - 100%
7. Benefit to Mark - 1%
8. You then brag about how loving and forgiving you are, how perfect your life is and condescendingly say that the world would be a better place if everyone just followed your rules and way of being. (see #3)
9. I call you to answer the fact that the only one benefiting from this "love and forgiveness" was you. Which makes it pretty selfish. Quite apart from the fact that I was not in the wrong in the first place and did not need "love and forgiveness"
10. You respond and appear to think that despite the fact that I was the one helping you - you are the one that was displaying the love and affection.
All you see is right there in front of your face.
It's called hypocrisy
Happy hubbing right back at ya
Zarm - that better?
I was new to HubPages then, didn't know most of the rules here like "overly promotional" and other related issues. I was never offended in your act of flagging the hub but I took it in the right attitude which resulted to my hubbing even more decently...Thank you. I understood rightly and took the instructions and encouragement from you, the administrator, Misha and lissie when I sought advice from the forums.
100% to me because it was to me an opportunity to learn and take heed to instructions.
100% to you because you possibly did the right thing obtainable here in the great HubPages community. You see, love is all about sharing and tolerance.
I have an understanding and a mindset never to take offence, why? It will only result to strife and bitterness capable of putting a man into trouble physically and spiritually. There're differences in our daily choices as I can only be Andrew not Peter, John or Mark likewise any body. Lets have a happier world with LOVE. Forgiveness and Love are vital virtues to cherish.
Happy hubbing Mark and to every great hubber in the community
I think I agree to Andrew here
Yes, it is selfish - in the sense that every self-improvement is selfish. At the same time it is altruistic in the same sense.
And yes, if everybody choose to be happy, the World would be a happy place. Not to make others happy, but to be happy him/herself. And actually I believe this is the only possible way to make this place happier
Well, it is not often you and I disagree lol
But - Here's the rub.
I did not need to be forgiven. Only by Andrew judging me did I need that and only as far as he is concerned.
Misha - I forgive you for disagreeing with me.
Did you need to be forgiven?
I need forgiveness, I don't know what I did, but I am pretty sure I did something. Can I get some forgiveness please?
You are forgiven.
Twice. Just in case the first one didn't take hold.
And absolved from further need for forgiveness for the rest of your life.
I forgive you, too
And, I still care what people think of me, and yes, if I step on somebody's foot unintentionally I feel a need to be forgiven
Ahhh. That would be where we diverge.
I don't care what anyone thinks of me - with a few exceptions.
You are actually on that list
I can't say I feel a need to be forgiven except where I feel like I screwed up badly.
Which happens - occasionally......
Anyboby? (seen in the title)
That must be a spelling mistake.
Anyway, I should forgive
Mis-smellings are automatically forgiven and an appropriate amount of love shown the sinner.
I think at the moment I can not forgive the apts. for turning off the water in the middle of my shower. arrrr!!!!!
Can I help you somehow? Bring some water in, etc.?
Misha - we have a word for people like you
Anyone else notice Mo's score is going down by the day? lol
Oh, are you there always beside that apts. or bathroom?!
Ok all is forgiven now, I decided after the water came back that it was all good!
Hi Sandra, I just want to say I have come across your that GOD hub and especially the comments section. I'm yet to read the article detailed, though I would say I liked it as far as I had a rough look over it. It's my sleep time, in India. I will be posting my comment in your hub sooner. See you
We are having a better and happier world with love. My sincere greetings to every great hubber in the community.
Thank you for your openness and generosity, Jewel. I am very touched. Thank you for taking the time and doing the hard emotional yards to sort things out for yourself and then put the sortings into words.
My heart goes out to you, with everything you are dealing with. I am glad that I could in some small way help you to identify what was going on, although I know that identifying it doesn't make it any less painful.
If you were "perfect", nobody would be able to relate to you anyway. Much better that you are imperfect, like the rest of us.
As far as I am concerned, and I'm sure I speak for the other regulars here, your imperfections are just perfect, and I'd like to see them stick around HubPages and keep contributing.
Thank you again for your loving response. I would have to write a couple of thousand words to explain why your response at precisely this time meant so much to me - suffice to say there is either something in the stars or the Universe is a hologram.
A hologram is made using laser light and specially treated glass to take a sort of "photo". It's like a 3D photo - when you shine a laser through the glass after the image has been imprinted on it, you see a 3D image.
The neat thing is that you can take a very small piece of the glass, shine the laser through it, and see the ENTIRE picture - all the information is encoded in every single little bit of the glass.
What you wrote to me was so similar to an email I just got from my girlfriend that I had to squint and read it twice to be sure you weren't her. She said something very hurtful to me on Wednesday and took a while to think through what was behind it. She is only one of three, though, so I eventually decided it was cosmic co-incidence.
Either that, or I have turned a corner for myself and started to speak up and say "ahem, that actually hurt ..." on a regular basis instead of swallowing the hurt and feeding a future cancer, and everyone I say it to is responding similarly appropriately.
Which is very disorienting for me, because my mother never responded appropriately and I gave up talking about my feelings because that only made things worse (she is an untreated bipolar sufferer who also had psychotic episodes).
But disorienting in a nice way. As though people might actually notice when they have hurt me. Which opens the possibility that they may even in the future hurt me less often. A comforting thought.
I mean, I can take a broad enough spiritual perspective to put pain to one side and get on with life, but its sort of relaxing not to have to do that all the time.
Forgiveness is imperative to one's well being,I agree, but it isn't easy. Essentially what one must do is let go of the hurt, frustration and/or betrayal and trust that you are not so damaged that you can't move on. When we don't we are not only locking up the individual who wronged us in a sea of venom... but we are in fact swimming in the same sea, because we have to keep an eye on the individual to make sure they get theirs in the "end". The most logical thing to do would be to swim away... but how? and Is it worth it? That is the struggle that every individual must face on their own. It is difficult to deal with forgiveness without also dealing with the word trust. If I trust and believe that you will reap what you sow... weather good or bad, positive or negative, then forgiveness comes easier. If I am not so sure that I trust and/or believe in that principle then comes the sleepless nights of tortureous thought.
You're right! Have you noticed whenever you forgive someone, you feel being set free and fulfilled. Anyway it goes beyond that, because it keeps you sound and healthy. You can also find it easier to forgive someone when you give thanks for everything in your life, knowing fully that all things work for your good, even when offended.
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