Trying to Understand The Psychology Behind Two Types of Forgiveness

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   Misbah786posted 2 years ago

   Forgiveness is linked to physical and mental health, hence it is vital in the clinical setting. In terms of psychological advantages, forgiving has been linked to a reduction in negative feelings.
   
   The two types of forgiveness are ‘cognitive forgiveness’ and ’emotional forgiveness’.
   
   #1: Cognitive forgiveness is concerned with comprehending the act that was done against you. To understand the situation and forgive.
   
   #2: Emotional forgiveness appears to be a more challenging and less achievable type of forgiving. Emotional forgiveness is the replacement of negative, unforgiving emotions with positive ones.
   
   First let me clear you that I know one can forgive. What I want to understand is:
   
   1) Can you forgive in one sense while refusing to forgive in the other? If so, is it beneficial in surviving a relationship between two people?
   
   2) Can a connection between lovers, friends, or coworkers survive if forgiveness is not achieved?
   
   3) Is one type of forgiveness more valuable than another? If yes then which one and Why?
   
   4) Do you believe it is possible to forgive in both ways? If so, do you believe it will have an impact on his/her mental health?
   
   The aim of this conversation is to get your opinion so that I can write an article about forgiveness. I'd appreciate it if you could educate me on the differences between these two sorts of forgiveness and how they differ. I would also appreciate philosophical thoughts on it.
   
   Note: If necessary, I can use your views by quoting your name along with your statements. If I do, I will notify you on this forum.
   
   Thank you for your help

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      tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      I think the two are connected even to the extent cognitive forgiveness must be achieved before emotional. In my mind the strongest emotion is anger closely associated with the act of resentment. From WebMD; "A person experiencing resentment will often feel a complex variety of emotions that include anger, disappointment, bitterness, and hard feelings".
      
      From my experience when angry I am not thinking things over. It is more of reaction to the wrong, misperception, or his/her emotions hence mine is emotional. It is later after walking away that I may ponder those. I know for me it took once quite awhile to forgive a coworker, yet was able to navigate daily interactions. Resentment lingered affecting trust.
      
      Even though I still felt wronged, I accepted there was a difference on the instance and realized he too was emotional when causing the catalyst for my anger. Thus, once achieving cognitive forgiveness that allowed emotional forgiveness. And, I don't think forgiveness means to forget the wrong.
      
      P.S. you don't have to call me 'sir'

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         Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

         You brought up some fascinating points. Is it possible to compare that feeling to 'guilt' that you felt when you realized the person was emotional?
         
         I'm curious to know because I've had that feeling before, but only once in my life. Even though I knew it wasn't my fault, I felt bad because the person remained silent after hurting. The person's silence, I believe, made me doubt myself. Is it a kind of tactic? Your thoughts?
         
         P.S. I call you 'sir' as I respect you and it's a part of my culture but If you don't like, I won't say that again Can I address you as Mr. Tim
         
         Thank you!

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            tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Thank you for the respect. Reading HP everyday reading your posts and some articles I suspected that and appreciate that. Yet, it brings me too close to my old guy status ha-ha Tim is just fine.
            
            I pondered the thought of guilt and think 'maybe'. To me someone that responds with silence is on their journey of forgiveness that may not have reached it cognitively so hang on emotionally with being silent and possibly not interacting. Maybe a strategy, yet I would have to see if it was common to that person or others to ponder.
            
            I thought back to being a kid with forgiveness with brothers and sisters. I think most of the time it was cognitive with do I Love them or hate them and Love always won, thus there no longer was emotional hurt.
            
            Let me first say that coworker was an angry kind of person to begin with. When in his mood you walked on egg shells avoiding him. Knowing that and the circumstances surrounding the incident it bothered me so much why I couldn't forgive I bought a book 'The Freedom of Forgiveness' by David Augsburger. It is Christian based book. I also read a book 'When to forgive and when not to forgive'. Hence a cognitive pursuit enhancing my ability not to resent him emotionally any longer.
            
            Yet, falling back on classes in psychology I first I sought that to understand the process. I was enlightened by those quests. A common thread in all three is that forgiveness itself is part of Life's journey.
            
            One thing I remember most of the first book is with steps of forgiveness is it is based on Love no matter what one thinks that is. And, then recognizing the other person has value as a person and not an object of resentment. As an object it is easy to be resentful. Yet, again, forgiving does not mean forgetting.

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            1. 82

               Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

               Thank you so much for your kind words of appreciation. I greatly appreciate your kind thoughts about me.
               
               Ha Ha! No problem. I can call you as Tim.
               
               I agree with your thoughts on "forgiveness itself is part of Life's journey." That's true, I believe.
               
               Your second thought again raised the question back "forgiving does not mean forgetting." If we don't forget how can we forgive someone emotionally and completely? Why can't we train our brains to forget someone else's mistake? If we don't forget about that mistake, we'll definitely complain to them about it at some point, right? I believe we will do so later or sooner. ( Any philosophical/ psychological thoughts)
               
               1) - Is Emotional forgiveness possible? Is it possible that a person may forget that he/she was ever hurt as time passes?
               
               2)- Is it true that time heals all wounds, or that we become accustomed to the pain? ( I think the question relates to the situation of emotional forgiveness)
               
               I think that "guilt" (as discussed above. If felt even after being hurt and while knowing that it was not your mistake) is some kind of tactic that the offender use.  I am looking for an answer to it in the light of both philosophy and psychology.

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                  Poetic Phantomposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  If an offender makes you feel guilty by their silence they are probably using a coping strategy to make the victim feel bad.

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                  tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  On the forgetting part I look as much at behavior as I do at a specific offense. I may forgive their specific offense or understand their position (Cognitive), but may not  condone the behavior displayed. So, I don't forget. Some may view that as score keeping. I don't think that undermines emotional forgiveness.
                  
                  Regarding philosophy I always first look to Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Stanford is a renown university. I discovered they had a treatise on forgiveness you may be interested at peeking at it; Forgiveness. I recommend reading the first paragraph and the table of contents, which are links to that particular topic. They do discuss cognate as a phenomena. There is also a section on emotion. The whole article is quite lengthy, yet the individual sections varies on length. I peeked at the two mentioned and they were enlightening.
                  
                  As far as #1, Yes, I think emotional forgiveness is possible, yet as I said when behavior becomes part of the context I am not going to forget . . . always. That may be a self-preservation motive. I dun'no . . .
                  
                  For #2 for time to heal wounds to me that means cognitive forgiveness may have occurred or just becomes a faded memory. As said in the early post I think cognitive is followed by emotional. Cognitive could mean simply not giving it any more attention, so not worth the attached emotional factor disturbing my life flow.   
                  
                  And, with jest insert disclaimer here

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                     Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                     I liked the disclaimer. Lol! Yes, I agree that Cognitive could just mean not paying it any further attention because the attached emotional aspect is not worth disrupting the life flow.
                     
                     I read the information you shared, and it was both intriguing and helpful. Thank you so much for taking the time to share. That is very much appreciated.
                     
                     Let's have a look:
                     
                     1) What are the rules that control forgiveness?
                     
                     2) When is forgiving morally acceptable, right, or worthy of praise?
                     
                     3) When is it appropriate to forgive a wrongdoer?
                     
                     Let's not forget about blame and excuses.
                     
                     Blessings!!!

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      Kyler J Falkposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      1) Can you forgive in one sense while refusing to forgive in the other? If so, is it beneficial in surviving a relationship between two people?
      
      Yes, you can forgive cognitively and not emotionally, but not the other way around except in the short-term, and in a more colloquial sense. Lying is beneficial, so if you lie about forgiveness and that counts as forgiveness to the party being lied to, then the relationship has survived by subjective perception of false pretenses.
      
      2) Can a connection between lovers, friends, or coworkers survive if forgiveness is not achieved?
      
      This question is heavily dependent on biases, but no. It really depends on the party's perceptions of what forgiveness is. To one, forgiveness might mean a literal punch to the face, while the other sees forgiveness as never discussing the problem ever again. Some form of forgiveness must be met in the necessary situations, or conflict is inevitable.
      
      3) Is one type of forgiveness more valuable than another? If yes then which one and Why?
      
      Emotional forgiveness is more valuable in the long-term, and thus more valuable at the individual level. Cognitive forgiveness is more important to function within a social hierarchy, hierarchy is an unavoidable outcome in any situation, and thus it is more important in the short-term.
      
      4) Do you believe it is possible to forgive in both ways? If so, do you believe it will have an impact on his/her mental health?
      
      Yes, and yes. Though the definition and outcome of forgiveness is subjective, if an individual can meet the terms of their own expectations of forgiveness then they will inevitably feel better physically and mentally. The only exception to this is someone with past trauma, a chemical imbalance, or otherwise aberrant neurological functions preventing them from reaching healthy conclusions. In such a case where a person cannot experience forgiveness even as a subjective concept, medication usually helps to take the edge off, and thus it is the medication that grounds them in forgiveness rather than forgiveness that grounds them in positive conclusions.
      
      Interesting topic, got me thinking.

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         Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

         Kyler, you gave some interesting and clever answers.
         
         # 1: Is it good to stay in a relationship based on a subjective experience of deception?
         
         #2: Can they (the wrongdoer and the victim) live in peace if they don't discuss the problem again? Is it possible that they (either of the two parties) may feel guilty at some point in their lives if the matter is not addressed? Will this have an impact on their mental health?
         
         P.S. How was your experience of being homeless? If you have returned back, please don't forget to share about your experience with us. I hope that quote has pierced your heart to its core by now.
         And a Big Congratulations to you on winning the Hubbie award. I am so glad for you.

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            Kyler J Falkposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            # 1: Is it good to stay in a relationship based on a subjective experience of deception?
            
            This is another question that depends heavily on biases, but generally speaking you'd not want to be in a relationship built upon deception. If deception is simply a tool used to carry on a healthy relationship, take the most common relationships between coworkers in a corporate setting as the best example, then there's nothing wrong with staying in a relationship based on a subjective experience of deception. Deception doesn't always need to be harmful, in fact it can bring many to grow positively such as when you apologize in a seemingly sincere way, don't mean it, but also don't intend to do what you are apologizing for again.
            
            #2: Can they (the wrongdoer and the victim) live in peace if they don't discuss the problem again? Is it possible that they (either of the two parties) may feel guilty at some point in their lives if the matter is not addressed? Will this have an impact on their mental health?
            
            Having experienced a myriad of different people in life and continuing to experience even more, I can say without any doubt that anything is possible. These what if's are too general, and the answer depends solely upon the biases of the one answering them. Where one person is hurt, another is healed; where one person is wronged, another feels righted; where one person dies, another is rejuvenated; etc. Give a more specific situation, and I can give a more specific answer.
            
            I have no recollection of the quote you're referring to. As for my plan to be homeless, I've set aside some time to do so next year without any worry of interruption, crisis, or any other hinderances.
            
            Thank you for the congratulations, I had no idea I had even won anything until some person at The Arena Group messaged me for my address. They have yet to send me any, "swag," as they put it, but I plan to do an article when they do.

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               Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

               Kyler, I found these words very true and wise:
               "Where one person is hurt, another is healed; where one person is wronged, another feels righted; where one person dies, another is rejuvenated; etc.". I am impressed by your smart and brilliant responses. Consider the case of two friends, one of whom has mistreated the other. The perpetrator now has a tremendous ego problem and can't bring himself to apologize, whilst the victim who has suffered continues to converse with him merely because he/she doesn't want to lose them. Will this have an impact on either of the two people's mental health? Will the wrongdoer experience remorse at any point in his life?
               
               Well, you can find that quote here if you really don't remember it. https://hubpages.com/literature/forum/3 … iful-quote
               
               But, I think, let's forget about  that quote for now. You won't agree with me on that one, I believe.
               
               Nice idea about writing an article.
               
               Strange!  You went viral and you didn't know. Lol!
               
               Blessings to you!

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                  Kyler J Falkposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  This is another situation that depends purely on biases, Misbah. Within one individual we may see that ego become frail, and over time they are beaten down by their decisions, in another we may see them become even better at manipulating others and thus growing that ego into something painful only for everyone around them. The victims, generally speaking, will feel much worse without recourse as time goes on, but it is much more rare for the perpetrator to experience things in a similar fashion.
                  
                  Most often, I have found that individuals who constantly seek forgiveness only do so because they do not wish to have their situation thrown in an upheaval. They apologize strictly to sate and placate those around them, but have no intention of ever stopping. There are far too many who get away with it due to the passive nature of those around them, as well.
                  
                  Perhaps a perspective unique to me, but I've always held it to be self-evident that those individuals who find themselves to be the most forgiving are often the ones with the power to stop the worst offenders if only they'd save their forgiveness until justice is pursued in full. Justice is a rare occurrence, though, at least in its purest sense, and forgiveness gets in the way of teaching harsh but necessary lessons too often. Then again, I'd also venture to say that this view I've expressed is too rigid, and I've already done away with it as a proper overall solution in my mind.
                  
                  It's all situational, and it all varies from individual to individual. I have yet to find a single problem in life that doesn't have millions of solutions that would work just as well as the others within certain contexts. All of it simply depends on the individual(s) involved.

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                     Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                     Kyler, you are right that it is all situational and changes from person to person. You're also correct about Justice being a rare event in its purest form. I agree that those who are the most forgiving are frequently the ones with the power to stop the worst offenders if they would save their forgiveness until justice is fully sought.
                     I wish to broaden and stretch this topic as far as possible. But, in the end, I always believe that it is necessary to forgive whether or not the perpetrator apologizes. (At least the cognitive forgiveness on personal level ) You must have to forgive them for your own peace of mind. That is simply my opinion.

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                        tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        Poking my nose in the conversation, so I ask for forgiveness I think there is a delineation to consider between internal vs. external forgiveness. Internal is of 'self' while external is social with interactions.
                        
                        Using the example of that life experience I shared earlier I did externally forgive with behavior as well as saying something like, "No problem" when he apologized to me. Yet, internally I struggled to actually forgive leading to my journey seeking to understand forgiveness more pointedly for 'self'.
                        
                        And, so far most of the discussion has been centered around peer-to-peer. The most frequent time forgiveness is exercised is with 'self' we may even do through out some days. With that 'auto pilot' may occur. From there we can consider other things like the few examples below:
                        
                        ** forgiving self
                        ** Forgiving the team that beat your favorite team. (I am struggling with that today ha-ha)
                        ** The team player whose performance caused the loss of championship
                        ** The actions of political leaders or party
                        ** The past, which can have a large spectrum. Just think of the Germans who may have struggled or are or just let it pass regarding the Holocaust.
                        ** I am sure you can think of others
                        
                        Of course importance comes into play and how much 'auto pilot' there is. And, what about justification for forgiveness and how that comes into play. Maybe one decides there is not justification to forgive. Does that fall under 'cognitive forgiveness'?

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                           Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                           Tim, It is difficult to tolerate people on political/social  levels, in my opinion. For example:
                           1) I don't believe we will be able to forgive a political leader for the country's suffering.
                           
                           2) A terrible player on the squad who caused the team to lose the game. People won't like to  give him another chance.
                           
                           Yes, I do believe that internal and external forgiveness are distinct. That's a new thought. (Thank you for bringing this up in the discussion:) )
                           
                           Importance and affection are important factors in the process of forgiving someone. We will find it easier to forgive someone we love and care for than someone we don't know well.
                           
                           Still I believe we continue to forgive those people (ones who are not very close to us) since those individuals rarely cause us to suffer as a result of their misdeeds/wrongdoings.
                           For example: You went out for a dinner with a friend and a friend of a friend who is a visitor in your country. Suppose the friend of a friend said something negative about you. You felt awful but didn't say anything in return because you know you won't see them again, so you forgive them. (No emotions and expectations attached)
                           
                           On an emotional level, I believe it is difficult to forgive others because we have expectations and when they are not met, it hurts us and we can't or, at the very least, struggle to forgive them.
                           
                           Perhaps if someone feels there is no need for justification to forgive, it is because they do not want to lose that specific individual. This does not fit under either cognitive or emotional forgiveness. I feel that love has the upper hand over forgiveness.
                           
                           Parents forgive their children, siblings forgive each other, and partners may forgive one other without questioning "why" in order to preserve the beauty of their relationship.

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                              tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                              Interesting and good thoughts to ponder. I was thinking of the well used adage, I'm sorry. To me it is obvious saying that is not an external action of showing forgiveness to the another, yet is it a plea to be forgiven? While wondering is that only said if ones goes through the process of forgiving the another first? (Cognitive, emotional, both, or auto pilot) Perhaps it is an autopilot usage just to end the dispute/argument with no forgiveness process?
                              
                              I agree with Kyler that is both an individual endeavor and subjective matter. Yet, pondering just now I thought is it a moral question/dilemma we face based on our values/beliefs. A short web answer is: "it is fundamentally a moral relation between self and other." I like other is used because of the earlier reason saying its scope is beyond peer-to-peer. The other can be that football team I am angry with today ha-ha
                              
                              To discuss that means realizing even though ethics and morality are interchangeable most of the time fundamentally they are distinct. Morality is learned of self through life experience (Internal) whereas ethics is from academic discipline (External). That is inclusive of religious texts, Sunday school or education with its text in general, work rules verbal or written, and etc. One is an internal force while the other an external.
                              
                              Let me clarify even though we read religious texts for instance regarding morality it remains an individual choice to internalize it while, yes, it may be commanded, which again means an external force usually written thus it is religious ethics.   
                              
                              How does that relate to forgiveness? I am thinking if forgiveness is a question of morality meaning of the self being personal values/beliefs is there a moral dilemma before the process of cognitive or emotional forgiveness begins? If not then no need to forgive? In other words no justification to forgive except perhaps as social folkway or more?
                              
                              Note: "Folkways are informal rules and norms that, while not offensive to violate, are expected to be followed. Mores (pronounced more-rays) are also informal rules that are not written, but, when violated, result in severe punishments and social sanction upon the individuals, such as social and religious exclusions". Those two terms are used with sociology. 
                              
                              Perhaps a little wandering, eh? Just food to ponder for writing an article leading to possibilities. Who knows forgiveness may become a doctoral thesis after completing a Masters degree? I know psychologists who have a bachelors and masters in psychology followed by doctoral in philosophy. Or, a book with or without the thesis research?
                              
                              No matter what always remember have fun, fun, fun as best as can be with the exploring.

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                                 Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                                 You were angry because of the football match. Lol! I don't forgive people who smash their and others' televisions because they are upset that their favorite football or cricket team has lost the match.
                                 
                                 I agree that even though ethics and morality are sometimes used interchangeably, they are fundamentally distinct.
                                 
                                 
                                 It's fun to explore more and more. I enjoy research and surveying others' opinions. I enjoy learning new things and expanding my knowledge. It's never enough, I believe. I feel that the way we're talking about it, a full book could be written. I really like the points you made.
                                 
                                 I have a bachelor's degree in psychology. I'm also attending some Psychcology courses nowadays. and enjoying a lot.
                                 
                                 Blessings to you!!

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                        Kyler J Falkposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        I've always found that people find more comfort in delivering retribution than forgiveness, but perhaps if we analyze the semantics it is the same thing due to emotional outcome.
                        
                        There was once a therapist of mine, good guy if not a little bit too into traditional Judaism for most individuals' tastes, who posed me the question, "What does it matter how you go about your life if you are happy? Is that not the goal of existence, satisfaction?"
                        
                        Of course, we were discussing homicide, infidelity, and oppression within the context of the game of power, so it goes without saying that the moralistic crowd will frown upon broader definitions of certain words and concepts. Nonetheless, one man's forgiveness is another man's, "I've had all of my enemies shot, so I have no need to forgive them."

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                           Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                           You've killed all of your enemies... Rude! No mercy!!  Lol!
                           
                           I disagree with your statement that people find more comfort in punishing than in forgiving. At least, I've never met such a person.

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                              Kyler J Falkposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                              That was a real-life example I ad-libbed, not my own feelings. The actual quotation is:
                              
                              "A Prince asked the dying Spanish statesman, 'Does your Excellency forgive all of your enemies?'
                              'I do not have to forgive all my enemies,' answered the statesman, 'I have had them all shot.'"
                              
                              Disagree as you wish, but we are currently watching the world grow increasingly obsessed with retribution. I wish I could know such a privilege as never having experienced the type of people who demand punishment in order to obtain true forgiveness, but those individuals are a very rare breed. Every country in the world has a system of retribution that must be followed, let alone individuals, even for the wrongfully accused innocent, all before forgiveness can be attained.
                              
                              Perhaps self-retribution would be interesting to explore in your case, the idea that one holds the higher ground when taking the more difficult path, the path of the martyr/prophet/disciple we hear about so often from moralist texts. The same conclusions have many different paths that lead to them, and we all take a different one. Unfortunately, I feel this would come down to semantics once more, and I'm not interested in arguing semantics.
                              
                              We both agree that each individual can reach the same conclusion as another but by taking a drastically different approach, the conclusion being forgiveness that leads to an individual's perception of a healthy mind and environment. Equally, we seem to agree that each individual has their stipulations for what is an unhealthy mindset and environment, and forgiveness plays a big role in that.

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                                 Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                                 I see. Thank you!
                                 By the way, I tried to imagine myself in a situation where I would have to ask for punishment in order to receive genuine forgiveness. And I believe I am capable of doing so. I feel that if I can do wrong, I should have the courage to face it as well.

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                                    Kyler J Falkposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                                    I'm different. If you wrong me, I wish never to hear an apology. Human sentiments of forgiveness tend to taste like a carefully concocted mixture of urine and vinegar, if we are able to get poetic with things. I give three chances to wrong me, and after that you become worthy of retribution.
                                    
                                    The most recent example of doling out retribution in my life was against an abusive landlord. Him, his family, their friends, the neighbors, and even the neighborhood in which the land resides was put in an uproar by me. I won, I forgive him because there will never be an altercation between us again, and everyone involved now knows that you can't get away with mistreating people I care about.
                                    
                                    On the other hand, if I have wronged you then I shall only apologize if you seek me to do so, but despite my intentions not to wrong you again I will most likely do so by no intention of my own and thus mean no apology I offer. It is rare I hurt someone intentionally, and if I do so unintentionally it was in pursuit of a necessity so apologies and forgiveness seem worthless.
                                    
                                    The most recent example of this would be me throwing the managerial team of my new, awesome living arrangement under the bus for their mishandling of my situation, and subsequently many others in the area they manage. They slipped up, I dug up dirt on them, and I requested they seek recourse with me. Rather than seek recourse, they continued to hold themselves as powerful and thus correct, so I showed them that there was a better path; now my life, and the lives of quite a few others are much more comfortable. 
                                    
                                    At the end of the day my ultimate goal is to make the world a brighter place, if one-thousand must fall to bring one-million to their feet then I will gladly cast down those thousand with conviction. At least that's the ideal, and we all know reality doesn't hand us such simple conclusions. Most people find this stance off-putting, and this is why I almost always opt to write from the perspective of others; we wrap back around to deception now, and the value of it within any interaction.

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                                       Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                                       Your thoughts are beautiful and kind. I don't think I've ever intentionally hurt somebody, but I'm sure I've hurt people accidentally. Mistakes are unavoidable in our lives as humans. As we are human mistakes are part of our life. Nothing is better than  trying to make the world a brighter and better place to live.. Greatly appreciated!

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      tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, I am angry with that football team and am not forgiving them for being well ahead then slowly giving it away resulting in a loss. But, my TV is intact and working ha-ha ;-)
      
      As you can see I am now at the beginning again realizing my wandering kinda' went astray to a fascinating topic; Forgiveness. Using what was presented for defining cognitive and emotional forgiveness I rescind my original comment saying I think it is cognitive first followed by emotional. Now, I think it could go either way and might happen so quickly they may seem at that same time, though I don't think so.
      
      Let me preface I think that forgiveness is not just with a peer-to-peer relationships. I say that because in these retirement days forgiveness is something I have encountered with the reviewing of my life, thus dealing with the self. Even though I am a que sera sera and life goes on kinda' guy, I do have regrets. And, that darn football team. And, that darn couch when I stubbed my toe. I won't forgive it. I do want to say seeing Love as central theme with relationships I adhere to the Four Loves concept written by C.S. Lewis.
      
      Oh yeah, this is lengthy, so you have been warned . . .
      
      1) Can you forgive in one sense while refusing to forgive in the other? If so, is it beneficial in surviving a relationship between two people?
      
      Yes, while saying unsure of refusing vs. not understanding with cognitive. Yet, off the top of my head I think with relationships emotional forgiveness is more important than cognitive otherwise inside it festers and leaks out with interactions as well as fuels deteriorating the loving part of a relationship. Waiting on the cognitive may not have value.
      
      2) Can a connection between lovers, friends, or coworkers survive if forgiveness is not achieved?
      
      Debatable. With lovers not so much. Yet, it bears on what needs to be forgiven. If I was a woman and he beat me I would find it extremely hard to forgive. I most certainly would not forget. And, would exit fast. At the same time if my wife did not have the house clean and dinner on the table when I got home I could forgive both cognitively and emotionally pretty much easily. Let me say I am not sexist expecting that from a wife. Just thinking of an example.
      
      Friends more so. I remember saying many times, "I don't know what happen, but everything is good with us". Thus forgiven. Coworkers there pretty much is no need as they are associates mostly and not friends. If coworker a friend, then more so (See above for friends).
      
      3) Is one type of forgiveness more valuable than another? If yes then which one and Why?
      
      Overall I think emotional is more valuable, though I kinda' feel that depends at times on cognitive. The problem is I can get stuck with seeking why or what. See #1 above with relationships.
      
      And, I base it on my Christian values and knowledge of psychology. They both emphasize ridding negative feelings while also saying that occurs with forgiveness too. And, spiritually, for me, forgiveness is a central theme in Christianity and my studies in the metaphysical realms.
      
      4) Do you believe it is possible to forgive in both ways? If so, do you believe it will have an impact on his/her mental health?
      
      Yes, for sure, with the first question. And, one without the other as hinted to above.
      
      With the second question I will change it to his/her/self. Anyway, I don't think it necessary to forgive cognitively for him/her perhaps it is not important to understand why or what. Except cognitive forgiveness of both with mutual understanding of what and why they may come up with a preventive plan for discovered triggers through loving communication.
      
      With emotional for him/her not to see signs or hear forgiveness has occurred from the other then guilt feelings may result inhibiting his/her process of forgiveness. Thus, mental stress, which may lead to physical.
      
      Yet, I am not trying to say there is a responsibility to forgive for the other to forgive. They both have their own journey. What I am trying to say is forgiveness is key to a loving relationship and, yet, that does affect mental health which in turn can have a physical effect of one or both.
      
      With self an entirely different thing as from personal experience it can gnaw at you causing distress at different levels and haunt you. Possibly that may occur with his/him too. Even though I am a que sera sera, life goes on kinda guy those can happen. I am struggling with that on and off now with smoking. Long story.Thus, mental affecting emotional leading to physical.

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         Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you for sharing Four Loves concept written by C.S. Lewis. It was interesting.
         
         1) I, too, agree that emotional forgiveness is more important than cognitive forgiveness.
         
         2) I enjoyed the part where you said if you were a woman.
         
         When it comes to forgiving an abusive spouse in a relationship, I believe women make significant sacrifices. They, too, forgive and forget. I believe the main reasons are based on some fears. I have written an article previously regarding Violence in Relationships based on women.
         
         Here: https://discover.hubpages.com/education … ATIONSHIPS
         
         And actually one more that is a poem. It is a true story. The wife forgave her abusive husband and died as a result. The article includes a trigger warning and a true story is told in the form of a poem. Here: https://letterpile.com/poetry/The-priso … out-a-bail
         
         The girl died, implying that she forgiven him out of love but couldn't forgive herself. Perhaps she had a mental disease or was under a great deal of stress.
         
         3) I agree with point 3. Religion and spirituality have a strong influence on us.
         
         4) I agree with your statement that " forgiveness is key to a loving relationship and, yet, that does affect mental health which in turn can have a physical effect of one or both." Love can conquer everything, I believe. Love is the key.
         
         Super Brilliant responses, Tim. I really appreciate your help and support. Gratitude!
         
         As for smoking it is injurious to health. However, I believe that quitting smoking is a difficult task. I've also written an article on this topic. I think I should not share that link here. It appears like I am using forums to promote my articles. LoL! If you are interested you can find it on my profile. Thank you once again for your wonderful responses. Greatly appreciated!
         
         Blessings and best wishes to you!

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            tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Your welcome. I felt I should address what you were looking for with your quest of an article. Though, all the dialogue in the thread contributes. I hope you get more responses. And, write the article as I would be interested to read it.

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               Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

               Much Gratitude!
               Stay blessed!

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   Misbah786posted 2 years ago

   I wrote an article about forgiveness and forgiveness myths approximately 4 or 5 months ago, detailing why we should forgive someone. It was also greatly appreciated. However, I believe there are several elements in there that must be addressed in order to fully comprehend the concept of forgiveness.
   
   Here's the link to the article:
   
   https://discover.hubpages.com/education … TO-FORGIVE
   
   I believe I have not done justice with this article. It need a lot more points to be addressed.

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      Poetic Phantomposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Your article is nice but the points you are discussing here are quite a different approach but I loved the theme you are working on!

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         Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

         Zeenat, Yes, it is different. Thank you very much! I'm hoping to come up with some more interesting ideas to delve deeper into this subject.
         Many blessings to you!!

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      tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Great and enlightening article. I read it, yet not all the comments. Maybe later. Very thorough in my mind. Your background in psychology shines threw or is it through. I think it covered the topic well while at the same time wondering a little bit. Maybe that is a good thing to ponder. Perhaps the Thomas Szasz is in agreement with my position of forgetting. I hope it garners Google traffic.

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         Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you for the kind response, Tim. Yes, it does generate some nice Google traffic, and it is currently on page 3 of Google for me (Spain).
         
         I don't see any errors in the article, however I believe that forgiveness is a very broad subject that frequently ends up on the concept of religious beliefs.
         
         I believe it is a much broader subject in the realm of philosophy and psychology. Consider the atheist. Suppose an atheist is reading my article and  I am telling in there to forgive someone because God tells us to, they might appreciate my thoughts but will they agree with me to do so for the very reason? (Of course, I know an atheist can forgive as a religious or spiritual person can but the reason behind their forgiveness is not based on religious beliefs that's what I am trying to say.)
         
         Forgiveness is a complex topic. It differs on a personal, political, religious, spiritual, philosophical, psychological, and social level. It has a lot of long branches, in my opinion. One must go deeper into the subject to understand it completely.
         
         What I have written in that article is something already available to everyone. I want to make it unique because it is a challenging and big topic. I want to make it argumentative on various aspects. I know it sounds dramatic, but that's what I actually want.
         
         I agree that your point of view on forgetting the mistake is similar to Thomas Szasz's. However, I believe that statement is "debatable."
         
         What if a wise man forgets the mistake because of a love relationship because ""Love keeps no record of wrongs." What are your thoughts on 1 Corinthians 13:5? Can this formula be used to describe human love?
         
         Please excuse my delayed responses my Thursdays and Fridays are more busy than my usual days.
         
         Blessings to you!

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   Poetic Phantomposted 2 years ago

   Seems like an interesting forum. Would like to follow up

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   Poetic Phantomposted 2 years ago

   According to psychology:
   
   Forgiveness is the basis of daily heroes, & it is the ultimate indicator of inner serenity.
   
   It can be a type of emotional skill, a kind of judo & karate,  in which we can disable our perceived opponent with patience & calm, & then extract the largest form of "revenge" by declaring harmony, even if only emotionally. I think, forgiveness is the greatest form of revenge & so is the silence of the offender, if it makes you feel wrong & guilty despite the fact that you know you were not wrong.
   
   Both are coping mechanism,I believe & both are done to save a relationship, I guess or for a complete cut off!

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      Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, forgiveness could be used as a coping strategy. We can discuss this in further depth. How can forgiveness be used as a coping mechanism?

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   Poetic Phantomposted 2 years ago

   UW-Madison Professor of Educational Psychology and co-founder of the International Forgiveness Institute Robert Enright says forgiveness is a moral virtue. “It’s being treated unfairly by others but you refrain from seeking revenge,” Enright says. “Forgiveness in its deepest form is in the form of love where you are concerned about the other person simply because this is another human being,” he saysEnright calls forgiveness the most heroic virtue. “It’s easy to be kind to those who are kind to you, to be generous to those who are generous to you and loving to those who are loving to you. But to practice—in the face of injustice—respect, generosity and love to anybody when they’ve hurt us deeply is one of the most difficult tasks known to man.”
   
   In his book, “Forgiveness is a Choice,” Enright states, “Unforgiveness, bitterness, resentment and anger are like the four walls of a prison cell. Forgiveness is the key that opens the door and lets you out of that cell.”Enright discusses the four phases of forgiveness — uncovering anger, choosing forgiveness, working on forgiveness and discovery and release.Forgiving those who have hurt us can be a long and difficult process. But being a forgiving person has its benefits. In their evidence-based, forgiveness therapy treatment, both Reed and Enright say they’ve seen good things happen when people practice forgiveness.
   
   They’ve seen improvements in anger—especially in children—an increase in good decision making, better relationships, purposefulness, and healing of divisions between enemies, families and communities.
   
   They’ve seen decreases in cognitive rehearsal (going over and over stories in the mind), PostTraumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) symptoms, anxiety, depression, hopelessness and low self- esteem. Enright says adding forgiveness therapy has even been shown to help relieve symptoms of fibromyalgia.
   
   https://bravamagazine.com/the-art-of-forgiveness/

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   bhattucposted 2 years ago

   If a person is kind-hearted and is confident of himself he would forgive others.

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      Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Sir, I agree with you and appreciate your kind words. Without a doubt, what you said is true. If we ever ask someone, I believe they will tell us that we should forgive others. And I, too, believe we should. But I'd like to delve deeper into this subject as I believe it's a huge subject  that should be debated on religious, philosophical, psychological, and political levels. I'd like to explore the various branches of forgiveness in greater depth. Thank you so much for your response. I appreciate that very much
      
      Many Blessings to you!

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   Poetic Phantomposted 2 years ago

   If, we see forgiveness in the light of emotional and philosophical views. I think to forgive others is to be kind to your own self as well. It is a two-way benefit, I believe. It benefits you & the offender, but there are chances that the offender might not value your kindness and this thing might hurt you back emotionally.
   
   So this is the place I think one might fear to forgive keeping in mind the later consequences. Thinking of ahead. If his forgiveness will be appreciated or not (a myth, of course, as you already mentioned in  your article)
   
   Let's see it this way:
   
   
   

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      Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Zeenat, thank you so much for your response. I believe that sometimes we forgive others because we don't want to lose them, and love gets in the way. When it comes to myths, I believe, I've previously covered it. but of course we can explore some more.
      Blessings to you!

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         erorantesposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         Hello miss misbah. It is not easy to deal with people that does not forgive.  They are unhappy people. They keep hurting themselves again and again until they stop thinking about getting even or complaining that they got hurt. It is better to forgive and forget about it.

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            Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

            I appreciate your kind thoughts. Thank you!
            Blessings to you!

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   ValKarasposted 2 years ago

   In my view the theme of "forgiveness" has many aspects and conditions to be considered.
   For instance, the very act of forgiving -- whether intellectual or emotional or both -- may be religiously motivated by a strong conviction that we "should" forgive unconditionally, this going even as far as saying that we should "love our enemies". In that case, we are perfectly capable of suppressing the grudge and forcing ourselves into forgiving.
   
   Right here I must admit that could never be "that religious" -- even more so because I was given something like my own mind to do some reasoning, with no need to let another human do my thinking for me, no matter how tall and impressive all cathedrals and mosques and temples of this world may be.
   
   I think that it's primarily up to the person who is to be forgiven if they should be forgiven or not -- not up to "our good heart".
   For a simple example, if a husband keeps abusing his wife, and she keeps forgiving him "in the name of love", then she is downright foolish. Just like respect has to be earned, not taken for granted, so forgiveness has to be earned -- not counting on anyone's good heart.
   
   In matters of criminal justice, I am for the capital punishment. I can't see a brutal murdering a whole family and then getting "life sentence" -- an environment where he gets nicely adjusted after a year or two, makes some friends there, reads books, enjoys TV, maybe even makes a degree in education with a new sense of "life fulfilment" -- none of which he deserve. Needless to say, I am all about the rights of the victim, not rights of the criminal.
   Then, forgiving friends and coworkers etc. may serve as our sense of feeling victorious, as "being a bigger man" gives us some advantage and an upper hand in relationship, making them forever "watch how they treat us".
   
   Indeed, there are many ways to look at this topic of forgiveness -- it's not just all about our "good, forgiving heart". Humans are complex beings, capable of complicating their own emotionality, belief systems, sense of morality -- just like "love" is not "just love" in some absolute sense, but is individualized and relative.

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   ValKarasposted 2 years ago

   Allow me to add a little more to my above comment.
   In terms of Transactional Analysis, if we are, in our inner, unconscious conflict: acting as a harsh, critical parental figure to our inner child -- then we are likely to treat the same way someone's outer "bad" child, finding it hard to truly and genuinely forgive.
   In the opposite sense, if we are being an overly supportive parental figure to our inner child, we may be so "accepting of others' silly little mistakes" that the person may never become aware how they are not contributing to the relationship -- while getting away with the proverbial murder.
   That's what I wanted to ad, just to suggest a little more how forgiving-or-not situations may be more variable than we might suspect.

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      Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you so much for sharing your  thoughts with me here, Mr. ValKaras. Sir, you have made some interesting points. I believe that a person must forgive the offender, in terms of religious and spiritual views. For the sake of God, one should forgive the wrongdoer and leave justice to God.
      
      Though, I have to admit that It is cognitive forgiveness, not emotional forgiveness, in my opinion. Even if someone see it as emotional, the emotions are linked to God. We are forgiving, yet the perpetrator remains questionable in our eyes. We might do it to acquire God's Love (I believe, God is always at the top of my list, and I can forgive anyone for the sake of God).
      
      But I also believe that someone on a political or social level may misunderstand or question my point of view. As you said 'violence in relationships,' this viewpoint may be called into question in such instances. In that situation, I suppose I'd forgive and fire the bridge from afar. (Cutting without causing pain)
      
      
      Here's a philosophical thought:  "FORGIVNESS IS POWERFUL"
      
      when you live with unforgiveness in your heart, you become debated-unable to move and show up in the world in the way that you were created to all because you took on the spirit of offense and chose not to forgive
      
      so, you see-while, at times, you may feel like it's your right to hold offense and not forgive-and while you do have free will-you must also understand that what you felt was a right will also be the very thing that strips you of your ability to live in freedom. ( Cognitive forgiveness again)
      
      and, so in your quest to experience justice, you'll only instigate the greater injustice against yourself, your well being and your future.
      
      so know this 'forgiveness is powerful'
      
      forgiveness is freedom- it liberates you from offense, from bitteress, and from the negative spirits that will invade your heart, soul, and mind and prohibit you from being a source of light in the world
      
      so forgive even when it's hard, even when the person across the table is undeserving.
      [Can't say if it is just philosophical or a mixture of philosophy, psychology and religion]
      
      I really appreciate your thoughts on "the concept of inner child."  I also feel that a person should communicate to the other person and let them know if they are contributing negative or positive energy into the situation/relationship. If the individual keeps making the same mistake, it is better to move away without hurting them and to avoid the suffering they cause you by being with you.
      
      Sir, my thoughts are that Forgiveness is vital, yet it is viewed differently on several levels, such as political, religious, spiritual, philosophical, psychological, and personal, and some others. The most difficult part, in my opinion, is emotional forgiveness. In my opinion, the memory can fade with time and a person may forget or digest the behaviour of wrongdoer. but I think,  emotional forgiveness is not possible unless the offender is so dear to your heart that you must have to forgive him/her anyway.
      
      Sending you many Blessings!

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    ValKarasposted 2 years ago

    Misbah, my dear friend -- I understand where you are coming from in your explanations of forgiveness, and I truly admire your noble heart.
    However, our views differ, because I don't think that we have to stay imprisoned in hate, grudge, revengefulness -- while allowing the justice to be executed at any level of wrongdoing.
    On the contrary, we can feel a deep peace and satisfaction while knowing that a person is learning their lesson -- whether easy or hard way.
    God's justice may not be so obvious after all, because, aside from "karma" story, an untold number of innocent children have died ugly ways -- and no one can convince me that it was "God's will and a part of a divine plan that we shouldn't question".
    I have spent decades meditating, training blissfulness at will, and I also learned to stay emotionally detached from the negative behaviors and stupidities of others.
    So I know first hand that it's very possible to stay peaceful in heart while letting others learn their lessons. It's not about finding some satisfaction in their painful learning -- it actually all comes from my very well cultivated sense of self discipline.
    Like, I don't either hate, or torment myself internally after making a mistake, and I have done my good share of them in 77 years -- but it's an insistence on harmony, on logic, on a sensible model of functioning that never involves "forgiveness" -- rather a need to change.
    I don't "forgive" myself, because forgiveness implies an initial grudge. It's like a negative feedback mechanism just telling me to change the course of personal growing -- and the same I see in the course of making others learn their lessons of life.
    Nothing to "forgive" there, if we didn't hate to start with. To be perfectly honest here, I don't let others' behavior disrupt my peace. Hate would spoil my digestion, while people need to learn, and I haven't seen a celestial entity taking care of that. I have seen more innocent kids die -- than criminals, abusive parents and husbands, meddling mothers-in-law, and tactless friends being straightened out by that "just hand from above".
    By the way, I do believe in a universal consciousness, but not within a frame of any organized religion in existence. (So don't list me among the atheists)
    Hence my story about forgiveness not in any relation to that supreme intelligence -- which, in my opinion, has more important cosmic things to do than intervene in our crazy ways of coexistence and our poor level of awakened consciousness.
    It's been a pleasure exchanging these thoughts with you, my dear far away friend.

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       Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

       Thank you very much, Mr. ValKaras. I respect your thoughts and opinions on this subject. As I previously stated, I believe that not everyone will agree with my statements. First and foremost, please accept my gratitude for informing me of your 77-year-old age. I am delighted to discuss these thoughts with a wise man. Your words are wise in my opinion. So, first and foremost, thank you for sharing your wisdom. Even though you questioned my perspective on forgiveness, I'm saying it's debatable. Anyone else's perspective on forgiveness may differ from mine and that's fine, I believe. I respect your thoughts and opinions on this topic.
       
       Regarding atheists, I have an atheist friend who comes from a religious family. I had no idea the person was an atheist until he told me. I never inquire about someone's religion. It appears to me to be a terrible thing to do. Love people for who they are, that's all. So, when we look at everyone as human, we will see that everyone can make mistakes, which is perfectly fine.  I am not in contact with that friend for about 2 months now but I really want to know his opinion on the topic of forgiveness. The person is really sweet and kind. I believe atheists forgive, but their motivation for doing so may differ from that of believers. I'm not sure if they do that for philosophical or psychological reasoning, but it's something I'd like to look into. I am confident that they do forgive the wrongdoers. They are also lovely people.
       
       I'd like to write an argumentative hub on the topic of "forgiveness," looking at it from various perspectives and with a broader mindset. I believe the subject is vast enough, and I frequently find myself lacking a broader perspective. Thank you so much for your time and for exchanging your thoughts with me. Greatly appreciated!!
       
       Blessings to you!!

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    Misbah786posted 2 years ago

    In the light of philosophy
    
    Kant, one of the most important authors in the history of Western ethics, seems to have very little to say about it.
    
    Forgiveness has increasingly attracted the attention of moral philosophers and there is now an extensive literature on the topic. This is not surprising, given the human predisposition to wrongdoing and the importance of forgiveness for maintaining human relationships. Forgiveness, as a positive response to wrongdoing, should have a place in any convincing moral theory. Yet Kant seems to have very little to say about forgiveness. The Groundwork and the second Critique do not touch on the subject directly, but a relatively brief passage on the issue can be found in the Doctrine of Virtue in the Metaphysics of Morals, where Kant develops the more applied and causistical side of his moral theory.
    
    Kant thinks of forgiveness as a personal response to wrongdoing which consits in overcoming malice understood as a hateful desire for revenge. Kant adds 'not even to call upon the judge of the world for vengeance,' which presumably means not even to desire the wrongdoer to suffer disproportionally.
    
    ["The sweetest form of malice is the desire for revenge. Besides, it might even seem that one has the greatest right, and even the obligation (as a desire for justice), to make it one’s end to harm others without any advantage to oneself.
    
    Every deed that violates a man’s right deserves punishment, the function of which is to avenge a crime on the one who has committed it (not merely to make good the harm that was done). But punishment is not an act that the injured party can undertake on his private authority, but rather an act of a court distinct from him, which gives effect to the law of a supreme authority over all those subject to it; and when (as we must in ethics) we regard men as in a rightful condition but in accordance only with laws of reason (not civil laws), then no one is authorized to inflict punishment and to avenge the wrongs sustained by men except Him who is also the supreme moral lawgiver; and He alone (namely God) can say ‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay.’ It is, therefore, a duty of virtue not only to refrain from repaying another’s enmity with hatred out of mere revenge but also not even to call upon the judge of the world for vengeance, partly because a man has enough guilt of his own to be greatly in need of pardon and partly, and indeed specially, because no punishment, no matter from whom it comes, may be inflicted out of hatred. It is therefore a duty of men to be forgiving (placabilitas). But this must not be confused with meek toleration of wrongs (mitis iniuriarum patientia), renunciation of rigorous means (rigorosa) for preventing the recurrence of wrongs by other men; for then a man would be throwing away his rights and letting others trample of them, and so would violate his duty to himself"]. (Kant 1991, 460–1/p. 253)
    
    
    https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 … 016-9727-6
    
    Any Thoughts?

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       tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

       Very deep in my view. I like Kant on many topics, yet have forgotten most of what I learned way back when. Recently I read his views of liberty, which I have been studying recently. Maybe that is a component of forgiveness? The topic if forgiveness from understanding falls under morality a subtopic of ethics, which is axiology,
       
       Realizing you have great interest and looking toward explanations with it with a focus on philosophy and psychology while seeking personal perceptions I think you are well on your way. Val Karas offered a lot.
       
       Anyway, another source to look at is a book enticement . . . The Philosophy of Forgiveness,Volume 1 by Vernon Press. It is a PDF file. So, to discover it you have to do a search on its title set in parenthesis. Search "The Philosophy of Forgiveness". And, then follow the link opening the PDF file. It covers religious philosophical views of;
       
       Islam
       Christianity
       Judaism
       Amish
       Shi'ite
       Hinduism
       Buddhist
       Confucian
       And, various philosophers like Aquinas
       
       It is only the table of contents, acknowledgements, introduction to authors, the introduction itself, and the very short beginning of Chapt. 1.
       
       I did read the introduction (5 pages), which has summaries of each chapter offering a compare/contrast and found it enlightening and informative while opening my mind. Maybe you would like to peek at it.

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          Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

          Thank you so much for sharing this. I'll be looking at this and would try to extract some useful and helpful points.
          Gratitude!

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    ValKarasposted 2 years ago

    Good, old Immanuel Kant is somewhat contradicting himself as he speaks of both, man's not taking justice in his own hands but leaving the justice to God's domain -- and then about "not confusing that with meek toleration of wrongs".
    Maybe we should see many of the past philosophies in the context of their times, when ethics was much dictated by strict religious teachings.
    Modern times have brought into philosophy more science, more flexibility, more relativism.
    Things are not carved in stone when human nature is in question, where emotional dynamics is not gravitating around some stiff moralizing. Life is one big school from which no one gets out graduating. It's only when we stop evolving at some point with an illusion that we are "fully equipped" for dealing with all aspects of relating to others, that we may create some "norms about forgiveness".
    In that relativity of everything, it may even be beneficial to someone not to forgive, because they may need that grudge at that stage of their emotional maturity, before they evolve it away on "gut level", not on a moralistic level.
    So many of those "should"s, "musts", "always", and "never"...which are the favorite intellectual toy of a moralist, may not have a place in one's personal emotional maturation.
    Of course, there are those axiomatic "no-no"s which no one of a sane mind should be reminded about -- like not killiing, not stealing, not intentionally hurting others' feelings -- but in the realm of normalcy so much of moralizing sounds like meant for some ideal humans, almost avatars living in an ideal Shangri-la.
    Needless to say, I guess, my kind of philosophy I am calling "psycho-philosophy of the praxis of living".
    Let's face it without any self-degrading -- we are a sinful breed, whether we commit something bad or we are just thinking about doing it.
    So we come to this big thing called EMOTIONAL SUPPRESSION.
    Is forgiveness just a matter of emotional discipline dictated by our moralistically calibrated minds? Do we suppress resentment "because it's not a nice thing to feel? -- BUT UNCONSCIOUSLY JUST THE SAME KEEP HATING THAT "BASTARD WHO HURT US"?
    Namely, unconscious, inner world, amounts to some 90% of all our mental dynamics, and we are only aware of those 10%. So we are thinking and feeling without being aware of so much of all that inner chatter -- only a fraction gets to be consciously registered.
    It's all really about what kind of "emotional climate" we have cultivated and made a part of our automatic unconscious emotional repertoire. If we are generally of a jerk-like mentality, it's useless to preach about morality of forgiveness to us. We automatically process it as a grudge, and then it's only up to our ability to suppress it or not, whether the grudge will hang around for some years, or not.
    In other words, it goes beyond our capacity for forgiveness into the inner realm of capacity for maintaining an emotional equilibrium, a joy of living, a love for ourselves which we exteriorize to others as well.
    Thus, forgiving or not may boil down to level of our emotional maturity, not to our intellectual understanding of this or that bunch of moralistic principles -- while our good heart may be nothing more than that inner suppressor.
    Well, at least that's how it all looks in this head of mine.
    I like this topic, and I guess, I've been showing it more than enough, LOL.

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       Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

       "Life is one big school from which no one gets out graduating." Agreed!! That's a topic that interests me as well, Lol! and I appreciate your input on it. What I can conclude from all of this is that we forgive or don't forgive others for our own reasons. Either keeping ourselves at peace or keeping that gut feeling alive. And we do that for our own good and evolution. Am I right?

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    ValKarasposted 2 years ago

    Misbah dear -- Yes, you got my point. Yet another angle of looking at the topic of forgiveness could be from that rather fundamental Pleasure Principle -- as we are either deriving some pleasure from "being a bigger man and getting over it", or from -- surprise!! -- tormenting ourselves with a victimhood syndrome.
    It was dr. Candice Pert who came close to a Noble Prize by discovering neuropeptides, or chemical equivalents to emotions -- whether positive OR NEGATIVE -- which nicely fit into pleasure receptors on our cells making us feel good, and pretty much making us addicted to that sort of emotional stimuli.
    Really, at that point morality stops making much sense, because -- as I like putting it -- we wouldn't give a helping hand to a blind man across the street if it didn't give us some pleasure.
    So, it may equally please us to 1) forgive, 2) pretend to forgive, and 3) not forgive at all -- while that grudge may feel just damn good, maybe fulfilling a prophecy about "our bad luck", our "being born under a wrong star", or just another in a series of our collected proofs how "people are not to be trusted". Somewhat reminding me of that definition of a hypochondriac who "only feels good when he feels bad".
    We are strange creatures indeed.
    Should we choose to really go deep enough into the whole concept of forgiving, we might end up realizing how it's just another mental construct, an intellectual toy, like, say, patriotism.
    Look, there is no logic in two opposing political indoctrinations as they both accuse the other of not being patriotic -- while the only way for both to be patriotic would be if they found a common language and by doing so make their beloved country strong, instead of divided.
    We create all kind of intellectual constructs to find a pleasure of being in a conflict.
    People who have a lot to forgive are usually those who keep creating situations that will call for forgiving -- or not forgiving, whichever gives them more pleasure.
    For that very purpose we created different Gods claiming that ours created us "in His own image" -- whereas the opposite is true -- we created Him in our own image, ascribing to Him our human attributes. So God "sees" what we are doing, He "forgives", he "Loves", he "Punishes", and yes -- we even present Him as a bearded dude to make our resemblance with Him even bigger. And I bet that it was a man, not a woman, who called that totally impersonal, unfathomable supreme intelligence a "HE".
    Then, not being happy enough with our own pathetic conflicts on earth, we invented some celestial wars between God and Satan. The more -- the merrier, in this eternal game of a collective hyperactive survival instinct where even God is not saved from having an opponent.
    Yes, we invent all kind of stories, all kind of concepts -- to have a pleasure of confronting those others of a "less insight".
    In other words -- we are humans. Nothing to forgive there, because we'll be just as much humans tomorrow -- forgiven or not.
    Just look at me with all this writing -- wouldn't it be so much nicer if I just agreed with you instead of piling up all this philosophical crap and counting on your forgiveness?

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       Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

       Lol! I was wondering where we were heading as I read it. You stated in the first line of your response, "Misbah dear -- Yes, you got my point.".
       I appreciate your help and kindness, Sir.
       Many Blessings to you! 

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    ValKarasposted 2 years ago

    Misbah -- No mystery there. You ended your previous response to my lengthy one with a question: "Am I right?" (as you made a short recap of what I had said, in your own words).
    And then I started my comment with: "Yes, you got my point"-- to answer your question.
    As for that "Misbah dear..." of course, it was to be an expression of endearment to match your obviously loving, forgiving, and delicate soul -- probably noticed and appreciated by all other Hubbers.
    And by the way, in the future, please don't address me with "Sir" - just Val will do.  -- Have yourself a fabulous weekend, and thanks for bearing with my lengthy "presentations", especially since they were somewhat incompatible with your understanding of the topic.

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       Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

       I appreciate your thoughtful response. Of course, I appreciate the word "dear." I, too, use this word very frequently with everyone—no issue there. I was just wondering about the epic story of God and Satan that you stated in your prior response and your last question that says as "wouldn't it be so much nicer if I just agreed with you instead of piling up all this philosophical crap and counting on your forgiveness?"  Lol! I enjoyed your sense of humour and your kindness. God bless you always!
       
       It's always a joy to talk to you. I admire your genuineness and kindness. You are a kind and generous person.
       
       Please allow me to address you as "Sir." I address almost everyone who is older than me as "Sir" or "Ms." Because I respect them and it is a part of my culture. If you still don't like it. Please let me know, I won't say that again.
       
       Your lengthy response did not irritate me; rather, I enjoyed it. It was amazing. I appreciate all your love and support. Much Gratitude!
       
       Take care, and have a blessed and joyous weekend.
       
       Blessings always!!!

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    ValKarasposted 2 years ago

    Ms. Misbah -- The following is completely off the subject of this discussion, but in a response to your latest comment regarding your insistence to address me with a "Sir", after I offered to be called simply "Val"
    I understand, and I can relate to it.
    Namely, if this website was strictly localized in my native country of Croatia, we would all be addressing one another with a "Mr." and "Ms."'
    Furthermore, in our culture we have a different pronoun with which we address all grownups except for grownup family members, children, friends, God, Jesus, and close co-workers.
    Actually, as far as I know, English is the only European language in which the pronoun "I" stands out written in capital letter, whereas "you" is the same whether we address one person or more, and written with all others with low key letter "y".
    Once I wrote a hub (which I deleted together with over two hundred others) about this "linguistic egotism" in English language.
    It was another of my many satires on other subjects, as I was satirizing this linguistic phenomenon, where "you" is the same for singular and plural, practically calling a person "just one of many other unimportant ones".
    In other words, a "commoner", whereas only the nobility is called "Your Majesty", "Your Highness", "Your Excellency", and any other silly ass-kissing exaggeration.
    So, I was brought up with the similar respect to be shown for the grownups I was addressing -- therefore, if you insist on calling me "Sir", I won't object it, but then I will also call you Ms. Misbah, because, regardless of our age difference, you are a grownup. And I'll do it with a respect, not out of any humorous treatment.
    All the best to you, and have a great day.

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       Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

       Interesting! Sir, thank you very much. I don't mind if you call me Ms. Misbah as long as it's for respect. I appreciate your thoughtfulness and respect.
       Happy Sunday.
       
       Best wishes to you as well.

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    ValKarasposted 2 years ago

    Tim -- Not entirely off the subject, but the end of your latest comment grabbed my attention a little more -- as you mentioned your "on and off struggle with smoking". I'd like to share my own experience in that department, with self-blame which didn't really exist. Meaning that I had nothing to forgive myself, and even more meaning that it was not a self-blame which gave me the strength to get rid of the nasty addiction.
    
    The fact that I am a pragmatic dude helped a lot, as always, and no amount of self-motivation played any part in it. After having read over thousand books on human nature, all I ever picked out of that material was what I could somehow use, not a theoretical crap that I could brag with at the parties.
    
    So, after already having quit coffee and beer some years prior to that, smokes where the last to get rid of, and I am talking two packs a day, more over the weekend. Why at that particular time and not before or later? I don't know, Tim, many things in my life a sort of picked their own time to take their turn.
    As I was writing a little thesis for my little study in psychotherapy -- knowing that it had to be something original -- I remembered how much an intuitive trick of what I called "voluntary muscles awareness" had helped me in life before doing some big moves, including two emigrations which, by definition, meant starting anew from scratch.
    So I used that (as a part of a bigger theme that I called Subjectness in my thesis) -- and then for my quitting smoking as well..
    
    So, what is this "voluntary muscles awareness?" It's about a grand realization that all conscious acts really consist of something where we use our voluntary muscles.
    Testing it for fun, I took a cigarette out of the pack, smelled it, and then put it back -- impressing myself on a gut level how much I could prevent myself from doing by using my voluntary muscles -- while "not asking my feelings for an approval". For, there was no smoking done without my muscles picking it from a pack, putting it in my mouth, lighting it up, and then sucking on the silly thing.
    
    I did some crazy tests to further prove the power of my voluntary muscles awareness. So I would intentionally drop something in the middle of the living room (when wife was not home, LOL), looked at it, stepped over it few times, let it be there for a while, knowing that it was not the place for it -- but not using my muscles to pick it up and put it in its right place.
    
    Quitting smoking was even a fun that way. No struggle of one tendency against the other. Actually, I was telling myself "Good, just suffer baby, but look, I am not doing what it takes to do the smoking, and you can do nothing about it if my muscles don't do it".
    
    It actually spreads a lot over my psycho-philosophy of living, as I became more and more aware how the whole life means "doing". Having become proficient at awareness about power of my voluntary muscles -- I could fall asleep in 3 minutes or so -- since I realized that I could "do the sleeping", not wait for it to "happen". Since I empirically knew the pattern of falling asleep, I just did what I knew how-to -- period.
    And then it also spread over emotional department -- so that over a time, I trained myself to "do my blissfulness at will", not waiting for times when I would be "justified by circumstances" to feel happy.
    
    It became the central feature of my spirituality, that exploring my unknown potential, creating my new models of experiencing out of the thin air, my dehypnotizing from the suggestive assaults of the society -- well, using my own mind willfully.
    
    And then we come to "forgiving myself for my past mistakes, smoking being one". I didn't see any to be forgiven. I am just another imperfect human entitled to make my share of crappy things in life. Geniuses make their own, and I just had my own style, at times even original, LOL. It became even easier as I looked around and didn't see anybody qualifying to call themselves perfect.
    And yes, I am still not smoking, not having coffee, not having beer.
    
    Am I tempted? Damn right, but then, hey, I am tempted to do many other crazy things, and it's only a part of that list where my voluntary muscles won't do it -- because they are THAT -- VOLUNTARY, under my conscious control.
    
    I hope you found this little story at least a sort of entertaining -- who knows, maybe even a little inspirational.
    All the best to you, Tim.

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       tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

       Thank you for sharing and food for thought.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

    In my view:
    It is hard to forgive. Anger is the usual response to feeling hurt by another. Anger, self protection and self righteous indignation feels better than admitting defeat and the powerlessness of being victimized.
    
    Forgiveness comes with understanding only. Understanding why you feel hurt. Why the other person hurt you and why it is best not to take something someone did personally.
    
    The bigger picture must be seen. What is the bigger picture?
    Did the person have a reason to hurt you? Did you cause it?
    Did they misinterpret something you did?
    
    Or was the devil involved in the person's hatred and bullying?
    
    Wondering.

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       Misbah786posted 2 years agoin reply to this

       In my opinion: I think it's not hard to forgive.
       
       Taking my personal experience as an example, When one of my very good friends hurt me, I believe the person had a reason to do so, and I believe I had a reason to forgive as well. You are correct that there is always a bigger picture. I believe I am to blame as I didn't act maturely. I don't believe the person's hatred and bullying were inspired by the devil. Thank you for taking the time to join me here. I believe our conversation will bring up some fascinating ideas. A feminine point of view was something I was looking for.
       Let's take an example:
       What if people mislead me about my friend, and my friend's attitude leads me to assume that they( people) were right? Will it be entirely my fault if I distance myself from my friend after witnessing all this? And what if I believe my friend was aware that I was being misled? And what if it makes me feel guilty later. Suppose I apologize and my friend forgives me. But, in your opinion, who is wrong? Is it true that everyone pitched in?
       
       
       Gratitude!

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