Creative power of our own minds. ???

1. 58

   Jeramiposted 12 years ago

   What if free will is eternal?
   
     What if the after life   or  no life after, is entirely dependant upon what we truly believe.
    
     When we have faith that there is nothing, then this is what we have built for ourselves.
      
     The creative power of our own minds.
          
   
      We would be getting exactly what we think that we deserve?
      Who can say that this isn't fair.
      We get that which we created.   Now that would be undeniably  Total and Complete  JUSTICE ! 
      Who can say that this isn't fair.
      We would be getting exactly what we think that we deserve?
      
      We don't have to stretch our imagination very much to see this concept as being compatible with the teachings of Jesus.
   
     Various Religions have been twisting his words much more than this !

   replyreport
   1. 61

      pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Well if its eternal and if we created nothing in our afterlife sooner or later the creative power will tire of the nothing it created and create something.

      replyreport
      1. 58

         Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         To be honest I hadn't thought that all the way through.
         
           Good point.
           If free will is everlasting I guess we could change our minds Huh?   and as you say ..  we would

         replyreport
         1. 61

            Kimberly Bunchposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            That is the whole point to change ones perspective and it is learning and growth dead or alive.

            replyreport
            1. 61

               pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Yep agree there too

               replyreport
         2. 61

            pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Yep

            replyreport
2. 0

   china manposted 12 years ago

   So - all those people with any kind of mental difference to us who are not capable of reasoning around this ridiculous subject, all those mentally ill people, cannot get to your 'heaven' because they cannot reason their ay in through free will - yet the most stupid moronic blind 'follow your leader' dimwit who believes this twaddle gets a 'heaven'. 
   
   This is Fascism.

   replyreport
   1. 61

      Kimberly Bunchposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I think someone has a stick up their bu#!
      Geez Bud lighten up!

      replyreport
      1. 0

         china manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I'll lighten up when you start thinking  ok

         replyreport
      2. 58

         Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I think you may be right?

         replyreport
   2. 58

      Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I didn't say that.  And I am only suggesting a possibility that in my mind is as credible as many others.
        I also did not say that my beliefs concerning an after life is THE right one for anyone else. Mine will be what I believe it to be.  If you have a better one then good for you.
         
          This is only an Idea that I was suggesting as plausible.
      
          Call it Fascism if you like?  Believe what you like.
      That is what you want to create for yourself, Good for you.
      I'm not judging.

      replyreport
      1. 0

         china manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Not me creating here - just pointing out that this line of thinking is recognisably Fascist - which is the state of most religions beneath the smily faces.
         
         You have touched on one of the basic issues here.  If I must 'believe' to get into your heaven then what about those who can't, are denied access to your books, are good people but choose to 'believe' different, never get to even hear of all this nonsense in the first place.  Hitler dealt with it by removing the opposition and anyone he deemed not enough 'like him' or his 'belief' - just like religion tries to do.

         replyreport
         1. 58

            Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Who is saying that you would want to be in mine.
            Create your own exactly how you believe it is going to be.
            
              What is Fascist about that?.

            replyreport
            1. 0

               china manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Yes - I know it gets hard to think these things through to the base they come from.
               
               This is why religion has such a hold on some people - it is not necessary to confront your own fears and prejudices yourself - you give that over to some supposed higher being and just follow the sheeple herder.
               
               When you get to the end you find yourself in some consequential place like Hitlers germany, or the inquisition, or whatever, and put up your hands and ask "how did we get here" - the ability to think through to the end is what keeps us more free from such things.

               replyreport
               1. 58

                  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I am just looking for a door at the end of this life.
                  
                    And after reading scriptures I imagine something such as I stated in the OP as being a plausible possibility that wouldn't be so much of a stretch of the imagination if we take all the judgment and hell fire out of it.

                  replyreport
                  1. 72

                     getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Keep looking, but it appears that at the end of this life, the door is shut.  You could be driving yourself mad.
                     
                     
                     
                     This seems to me nothing more than conjecture and whimsical folly. 
                     
                     And when you refer to scripture as your motivation for this conjecture, it becomes even more whimsical.
                     
                     But go ahead and imagine whatever you want.  Just remember your imagination is not reality, and is probably 100% irrelevant.

                     replyreport
                     1. 58

                        Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        Conjecture is exactly what I admitted all along.
                        
                        But ...  Thank you for your permission. 
                        I think I'll follow your advise and continue on in my folly

                        replyreport
                        1. 58

                           Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           Juts as a matter of interest Jerami - what makes you think there is a life after death (ignoring the oxymoronic nature of that term) and why are you looking for a "door" at the end of life?

                           replyreport
                           1. 58

                              Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Thank you for the respectful overtones to the question.
                              And I'll attempt to answer in kind.
                              
                                 I believe what I do, Not because I was told this. I think that when we were young we were the closest to our life source than we ever will be. When we were young we all felt indestructible. At least I did.  Death is not a fear that we were born with. 
                                Society taught us many things that we all wish that we haven't learned.   
                                 As society pushes us down when it thinks that we are standing too tall; who we are changes due to that pressure.
                              
                                Our concepts of reality changes, when it didn't have to!
                               
                                Also ...   Dreams !  many people believe that they are simply a byproduct of their perception of reality. 
                                    I think that they are much more than that.
                                I happen to think that they do  at least   influence our conscious selves.  Dreams are a two way swing door.
                              
                                They are a window into a different reality where scientific probes can not enter.   But we all know they exist.  But like everything else..  everyone will never agree as to what they are!
                              
                                 For me that reality is kinda like a tomato plant in the back yard.  If we do not pick the fruit ..  It might as well not even be there.  It isn't real, unless we pick the fruit.
                              
                                 There are many plants that unless we pick the few fruit that they produce, they stop producing.  As long as we keep it picked they keep producing.  Milk cow?, same story.
                              
                                OK, that is enough rambling for now.  I could continue this line of thought all day.
                              
                                In the end I believe the way I do  just  cause  I do.
                              I can't stop it.

                              replyreport
                              1. 58

                                 Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 Thanks for the answer - but I am a bit confused. I mean - you have no explanation for why you think this? None at all? You just do? And you think you thought this idea up for yourself? No one told you about it?
                                 
                                 I think you are right about fear as a youngster - we have to learn fear, and we usually learn it from experience. Children cannot grasp the concept of death - it has to be explained to them. And most believers lie to their children and tell them they will not actually die - they will go somewhere special, or their dead mother is not really dead or whatever. Unfortunately - I think this explanation is more for the one doing the explaining than the child because they do not want to admit they don't know something. Children can deal with a lot more than we usually give them credit for.
                                 
                                 Dreams are a useful tool for understanding ourselves although the imagery conjured tends to be unique to a person. It is also possible to influence the direction of your dreams if you wish.It is also possible to measurer neuro-physiological activity during sleep,
                                 
                                 There are no plants that I know of that will stop producing fruit if we stop picking it. Fruit is the way many plants reproduce. Animals eat the fruit and spread the seeds when they defecate.
                                 
                                 A cow will only produce milk when it is necessary - we artificially make them produce milk by milking them in order to fake out their natural process of stopping when their calf is old enough to not need milk any more. Human females will do the same. It is the natural order to stop making milk when it is not needed any more.
                                 
                                 But - I don't understand what any of that has to do with why you think you will never die. Do you think you will still have your personality and be aware of yourself when you go through this door you want to be there?

                                 replyreport
               2. 61

                  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Religion does not have a hold on some people. It is some people who choose to hold on to what a religion advocates. The choice is always with the people. Whether one chooses to take responsibility for their own choices or not is highly subjective

                  replyreport
                  1. 58

                     Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     I wish that I could have expressed what I was thinking a year and a half ago as you just then expressed it!
                     
                         MANY thanks !

                     replyreport
   3. 0

      Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      ____________
      Do you have any kind of personal power?

      replyreport
      1. 0

         china manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         What do you mean exactly ?

         replyreport
   4. 71

      ddsurfscaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      dont we have a better vocabulary so that the name calling could be passed by, and other words describing what you mean can be used instead?

      replyreport
3. 88

   Paragliderposted 12 years ago

   @Jerami - that's fine as a what if, but as there's no evidence for mind alone being able to influence the here and now, why should we expect it to influence the hereafter?

   replyreport
   1. 58

      Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      But our mind does influence the here and now.
        We choose to be happy and sad.
        The reason we are not in more control in the here and now better than what we do is because there are other people in the same environment colliding their reality with my reality.
      
         But upon death the sheep, foxes, goats and bunny rabits will go to where they should go.  (Metaphor)
      
         This concept is in the If thing category anyway.

      replyreport
      1. 60

         fits3x100posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Wow great post! Need to go back and study the previous entries, but... on the surface the issue of eternally resonant free will is one that mimics creations laws of physics. As for our ability to create... in my humble experience we RE-create a great deal, but Create little if anything. We effect much to be sure, but create? Not so much.
           Commentary regarding "religion" has been pretty astute. Man has always wanted a Shepard to blame. And the world is full of folks desiring to lead. In the end....it's pretty hard to escape personal responsibility. I have a Son with Down Syndrome. His ability to rationalize is limited indeed. However, his condition is not one of his choosing, and I have a hard time imagining a Creator that would hold him responsible for that...What he does with what he has...if he drinks battery acid, it'll effect his existence... you will leave this state of being with one possession...memory...your own and those you imprint on the lives around you... the same holds true for my son

         replyreport
         1. 58

            Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I agree that A Creator would not hold your son responsible
            
            theology is too complicated for any one person to understand.
            There is some truth in all theories. 
            Some more than others.

            replyreport
      2. 88

         Paragliderposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Yes, the mind can certainly create an internal space, but the mind, unaided by action, can't create a real physical environment. I don't think there's much evidence that the mind can survive death of the body, but of course there can be no proof of that, either way.

         replyreport
         1. 61

            pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            For some, the physical environment in a dream seems real when youre dreaming. An illustration perhaps....
            
            By Zhungzi
            
            Once upon a time, I, Chuang Chou, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was Chou. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man.

            replyreport
            1. 88

               Paragliderposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               That's nice, thanks

               replyreport
4. 71

   ddsurfscaposted 12 years ago

   bingo, it is whatever you think it is, exactly.  We have the power to create or not our lives and existance.  If you believe it is, it is.

   replyreport
5. 60

   kessposted 12 years ago

   The Wisdom of the father is this.
   That those of the dark mind will create death for itself
   And those of the light mind will create Life for itself.
   
   We know the end has not come, because we see those who are of Light are still dying and those of darkness are still living.
   
   We also know that the end has begun, because He who called himself Truth and Christ, By the power of Light of Life, chose death knowing that by the light within himself he is able to raise Himself from His own death.
   
   Now by that occurrance, The Light within the grave is gradually receding, because those of light within it have escaped to die no more. and without Light the grave has no power.
   
   The time is coming and now is, when The dead will live no more, while the living will die no more.
   
   And death and Life both will be upon this earth.and we woul;d see men desiring to die but cannot. While those of life will never die.
   
   This is so because the grave is no longer beneath, but upon the face of the earth.
   
   The mind without Light because of light He may lives, but  cannot repent because of his own darkness.
   
   So repent while there is still Light, least you die for in the darkness there is no light.
   
   Repentance simply means to Look for Light and Truth in all things, and in doing this you establish yourself in the kingdom of the perfect, because you yourself is also perfect.

   replyreport
6. 58

   Jeramiposted 12 years ago

   Morning ...
   
     There is a BIG difference in thinking something is and
   believing it!
      And those beliefs of others do affect our own.
   
   
   Paraglider   wrote 
     Yes, the mind can certainly create an internal space, but the mind, unaided by action, can't create a real physical environment.
   - - -
   
   very true, works without faith is empty.
   If ya don't have faith in what you are trying to do your efforts are greatly impeded.
     Faith and your efforts is a winning combination.
   
     Now if this is only my opinion is it less likely to be true than if I really believe it to be true?

   replyreport
   1. 88

      Paragliderposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Works with or without faith are still tangible and can be genuinely useful.
      Faith without works is selfish, maybe?

      replyreport
      1. 58

         Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         That is one way of seeing it! 
           I sometimes think that everything that we do is either selfish or destructive. 
           Take for instance if I am unselfish in giving to lets say ten people. I have helped them to achieve a higher position than I myself am on.  Then there will be more people in a higher position capable of reaching down and giving me a hand up.
         
           I'm not saying to help other with this in mind, or as your motives.  It just often works that way.
         
            Cause if THEY are smart, they will automatically bring you along with them on their rise to wherever they are going, cause they know that they can count on you for further support.
         
           I think this is the way that unselfishness is supposed to work.   In this way, selflessness in kinda selfish in an unknowing kind of way.
         Or something like that anyway.

         replyreport
7. 58

   Jeramiposted 12 years ago

   kess  wrote   
     The Wisdom of the father is this.
   That those of the dark mind will create death for itself
   And those of the light mind will create Life for itself.
   
   We know the end has not come, because we see those who are of Light are still dying and those of darkness are still living.
   - - - - - - - - -
   
   ME   ...   I think that those of the light are still dieing because of two reasons.  They only have the light of a candle which to us seems like a lot. But this light allows them to find what they are looking for on the other side. 
   
     Just a thought.
   =====================================
   
   
        We also know that the end has begun, because He who called himself Truth and Christ, By the power of Light of Life, chose death knowing that by the light within himself he is able to raise Himself from His own death.
   - - - -
      
   
   YES  that is kinda what I was thinking.
   =======================
   kess
   Now by that occurrence, The Light within the grave is gradually receding, because those of light within it have escaped to die no more. and without Light the grave has no power.
   
   The time is coming and now is, when The dead will live no more, while the living will die no more.
   
   And death and Life both will be upon this earth.and we would see men desiring to die but cannot. While those of life will never die.
   
   This is so because the grave is no longer beneath, but upon the face of the earth.
   
   The mind without Light because of light He may lives, but  cannot repent because of his own darkness.
   
   So repent while there is still Light, least you die for in the darkness there is no light.
   
   Repentance simply means to Look for Light and Truth in all things, and in doing this you establish yourself in the kingdom of the perfect, because you yourself is also perfect.
   - - - - - - -
   
      There are some words that just sound religious,  Like repent,  you said it best when you added ...
     "Repentance simply means to Look for Light and Truth in all things",   
     I think more people would be more responsive then, if we could always keep it simple.
      I could be wrong!  But I tend to think that Jesus kept it simple like that.  THEN  religion of the day began inserting pompous overtones.   
   
   I'm not accusing you of this,  just pointing out that there are words that sound that way due to the way they have been used in the past.
     Some words though they are intended as beacons of light, in today's society are  ..  a blinding light..
     or something like that.
   
   No disrespect intended. I always enjoy reading your posts.

   replyreport
8. 58

   Jeramiposted 12 years ago

   Mark wrote ...
      Thanks for the answer - but I am a bit confused. I mean - you have no explanation for why you think this? None at all? You just do? And you think you thought this idea up for yourself? No one told you about it?
   - - - - - -
   
   ME
      Actually the title of this thread is a clue as to why I believe the way that I do.  It is difficult to explain adequately what feelings are.
      I guess it has to do more with the preponderance of circumstantial evidence.   No single thing has that persuasive authority to change anyone's mind either way
     Many things that I may consider as circumstantial evidence you would not even consider, and vise-verse.
      Not only concerning the topic at hand but any topic.
   ========================================================
   Mark  ...
   And most believers lie to their children and tell them they will not actually die - they will go somewhere special, or their dead mother is not really dead or whatever. Unfortunately - I think this explanation is more for the one doing the explaining than the child because they do not want to admit they don't know something. Children can deal with a lot more than we usually give them credit for.
   
   - - - - -
   ME
      Some believers do not believe as much as they wish that they did.  So in that respect you may be absolutely correct.
   
     And if those believers that do have real faith that they are right in their faith ,, Maybe should ..  explain that many people believe this way and some don't ?  But that would be self defeating and might not accomplish a since of peace in the bereaving child??  I don't know?
   =======================================   
   MK
     Dreams are a useful tool for understanding ourselves although the imagery conjured tends to be unique to a person. It is also possible to influence the direction of your dreams if you wish.It is also possible to measurer neuro-physiological activity during sleep,
   - - - - -
   
   ME
      I don't think that we realize the full extent of the usefulness of dreams .
   ====================================================
   There are no plants that I know of that will stop producing fruit if we stop picking it. Fruit is the way many plants reproduce. Animals eat the fruit and spread the seeds when they defecate.
   - - - -
   ME
      Actually the Jalapeno is one that will produce a few fruit (?) that if not picked stifles reproduction and each time they are picked stimulates greater numbers next time,  And tomatoes. If not picked only produce a few and then they quit producing.
   the more ya pick the more they produce, at least that has been my experience
   =========================================================     
   MK
   A cow will only produce milk when it is necessary - we artificially make them produce milk by milking them in order to fake out their natural process of stopping when their calf is old enough to not need milk any more. Human females will do the same.
   - - - -   
   ME
     Absolutely correct.  A cow keeps producing for a couple of years after the calf is weaned if we artificially keep picking the fruit of the utter so-to-speak.
   ===================================================     
   MK
     But - I don't understand what any of that has to do with why you think you will never die. Do you think you will still have your personality and be aware of yourself when you go through this door
   - - - - -
   
     Yes  we seem to have gotten off track. 
     As I said before  "I KNOW nothing.  But I think that when we die we return to the source and in one way we keep our memory of our experiences  BUT  in collective sort of way.
     We retain all of our memories we had as a child, son, brother, husband/wife, father etc.  For we truly are so many people in one that we can not be fully aware of all that we are even in this life.
     We are only ever aware of the finished product that we precieve ourself to be. 
      But we are much, much more.
   
     That is my story just about as well as I can explain it in one post.

   replyreport
   1. 58

      Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Not really - you asked a what if question that suggested you can create an after life by believing in it while you are alive. That doesn't really answer teh question as to why you think there will be an after;life and why you are looking for a door of some kind.
      
      
      
      Not really. We have a common frame of reference in language to do this. When you say you feel sad - I may not be able to feel exactly what you feel, but I understand your meaning quite well.
      
      And if you mean what feelings are as in what their function is and how they come to be - there are lots of ways to describe them also.
      
      
      
      Not really. There is no circumstantial evidence at all. If there was - I would accept it as such. Cows stopping milk production when they are stopped being milked does not constitute circumstantial evidence. There is a perfectly rational explanation for that.
      
      
      If the object is to persuade the child to stop being sad by swallowing the idea that the person concerned is not actually dead - yes - it would defeat the object.   
      
      
      Speak for yourself Jerami - this is a widely studied field with a lot of information. Ask Earnest - he is something of an expert.
      
      
      I think you are wrong Jerami. Tomatoes will produce forever regardless of whether you pick them or not because they will fall off. The desire to propagate the species is strong - even in plants.
      
      And producing more when picked does not mean stopping producing when they stop being picked. There is a rational explanation for why plants produce more fruit when they are picked more often.
      
      
      This is actually the opposite of what you are talking about so I do not see what it means.
      
      
      Which brings us back to - why do you believe this?
      
      You and I are obviously very different people. When I find myself attached to a particular idea - I take a very close look at why I feel or think that way. I cannot accept that "I just do." I have to understand why.
      
      And it is shocking some of the reasons I have found as to why I think a certain way.

      replyreport
   2. 60

      fits3x100posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Man alive! All over the map eh? The one point I have observed that really jumps out is MOTIVE. The condition of the heart. "The heart of man is exceedingly wicked".  "And I will give him a new heart"... Repent by definition is not to be sorry....it is to turn and go 180 degrees...the Other way..."feeling"sorry has no useful purpose other than to induce...change...action...turn and go the other way. I like the descriptions in Matthew for life after death...for the Kingdom of God...for understanding motive...purpose... in and of myself, I am not capable of selflessness, that would require surrender of my will(do NOT read intellect)(DO read desire) ego...I have empirical proof.  I'm a pretty smart guy...By that I mean I can read , think, formulate.etc....but Wow have I done some REALLY dumb things...ever met anyone like that? Or rather anyone NOT like that? hehehe... Jerami, I love the way you think!

      replyreport
      1. 58

         Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I have read many believers who make this same claim despite the fact they have yet to support it with evidence. 

         replyreport
         1. 58

            Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            unless I am trying to sell ya something ... 
            why do I have to prove anything.
              If ya don't believe I have something that you  MIGHT   want, Why do ya want proof.

            replyreport
9. 58

   Jeramiposted 12 years ago

   fits3x100  wrote 
     I'm a pretty smart guy...By that I mean I can read , think, formulate.etc....but Wow have I done some REALLY dumb things...ever met anyone like that? Or rather anyone NOT like that? hehehe...
   
   - - - - -
   
     I am sure that you are pretty smart. There is a strong hint of that just from what I have seen in your post. 
   
     but Wow have I done some REALLY dumb things ... 
   no that wasn't a quote ..  I echo the same sentiments.
   
     I don't think that we ever stop doing dump things.
     But if we can recognize that we do them ...  we hope to decrees their frequency and severity.
   
   
     Forgot to mention that I agree with the rest of your post concerning the difference between being sorry and real repentance.

   replyreport
   1. 60

      fits3x100posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      2 phases... Salvation & Sanctification. 1st  one is instant, 2nd one is a lifetime of fight/surrender/fight/surrender... Nietzsche early in his life said "God is dead." Later in life as he came closer to his own mortality he said "your God is that upon which you rely." As a young  and physically strong man, I relied on me and my bodily abilities, In my later middle years I relied on my mind, now as that begins to get weaker, I am learning how to rely on my Spirit and God's Spirit  and learning to understand the communication there-in...

      replyreport
      1. 58

         Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Your quote was words of wisdom..   I'm not that wise but I do feel that  OLD ! 
         
             And I can agree with the truth of it seeming like  life is like   fight / surrender ...  fight/surrender ... part if ya add to it  ... 
         
         
         
         
         
             "that it don't haf.ta be that way"      !!!

         replyreport
10. 58

    Jeramiposted 12 years ago

    Mark..
    That doesn't really answer teh question as to why you think there will be an after;life and why you are looking for a door of some kind.
    - - - -
       In which case I can only say that I do not know how to explain it even though I know.
    =================
    
    Not really. We have a common frame of reference in language to do this. When you say you feel sad - I may not be able to feel exactly what you feel, but I understand your meaning quite well. And if you mean what feelings are as in what their function is and how they come to be - there are lots of ways to describe them also.
    - - - -
    
      the common frame of reference can only explane the common feelings as to what it is.  The uncommon understanding does not conform to the common.
    =========================================
    
    MK
    There is no circumstantial evidence at all. If there was - I would accept it as such. Cows stopping milk production when they are stopped being milked does not constitute circumstantial evidence. There is a perfectly rational explanation for that.
    - - - -
    
    
       And as we both agreed this was off topic
    ================
    
    
    
    If the object is to persuade the child to stop being sad by swallowing the idea that the person concerned is not actually dead - yes - it would defeat the object.   
    - - -
    
      agreed
    
    ====================================
    
    MK   
      Speak for yourself Jerami - this is a widely studied field with a lot of information. Ask Earnest - he is something of an expert.
    - - - - - -
    
       Yes there is quite a bit that has been learned in that field. All I said was that that we have not realized their full potential.
    ========================================
    
    I think you are wrong Jerami. Tomatoes will produce forever regardless of whether you pick them or not because they will fall off. The desire to propagate the species is strong - even in plants.
    - - - - -
     
    ME    And after enough of them has fallen off ...  the soil around the roots are reconditioned and they stop producing. 
      But if we continue to pick them, they don't fall off and rot.
      This is the point that I was originally referring to.
    
       It has been my experience with jalapeno peppers that they may produce 6 to 12 approx. when left alone.
       But when continuous harvesting takes place ya might get 100 or more off of it with twice as many of them on the plant at once.
       Again off topic.
    =================================================
    
    
      ME   
       As I said before  "I KNOW nothing.  But I think that when we die we return to the source and in one way we keep our memory of our experiences  BUT  in collective sort of way.
    - - -
    
      MK
      Which brings us back to - why do you believe this?
    
    You and I are obviously very different people. When I find myself attached to a particular idea - I take a very close look at why I feel or think that way. I cannot accept that "I just do." I have to understand why.
       And it is shocking some of the reasons I have found as to why I think a certain way.
    
    - - - -
    
      I understand why I do the things that I do.  It's just seems that I can not find the right words or find an explanation that satisfies others.
      If I were more educated maybe I could, but  I  AINT   so I can't.
      No offence intended

    replyreport
    1. 58

       Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       That seems like a cop out, Jerami. It is quite possible to educate yourself, and it appears to me as though you are being purposefully incapable in order to maintain an illusory belief that you do not want challenged.
       
       Lets take your Jalapeño and Tomato example which you think constitutes "circumstantial evidence," that you will live forever.
       
       The fact that they produce more fruit when you harvest them does not mean they will stop producing fruit if you stop harvesting. This is an irrational statement and not from direct observation as you originally claimed. There is a rational reason, based on the need for the plants genes to "live forever," by reproduction. Taking advantage of that is how we persuade them to produce more fruit.
       
       http://www.agriculturaits.czu.cz/pdf_fi … yomeka.pdf
       
       I guess - if I were you - I would need to be asking myself why I would make up something like this to defend my beliefs. I was not attacking your belief - I asked an honest question as to why you think the way you do and hold a belief that you will live on after you die.
       
       You response has been that you do know - but you are too uneducated to be able to express why. Perhaps - if you ask yourself this question honestly - you will discover that you do not consciously know why you believe this. Then when you look deeper inside - maybe you will find the real reason.
       
       But - I suspect you are not going to like the answer.

       replyreport
       1. 58

          Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          We both agreed that the subject of picking the fruit was irrelevant to beliefs in an afterlife
          (NOT pruning)  as the suggested post was referring to.
           
          
          Mark wrote ...
             I guess - if I were you - I would need to be asking myself why I would make up something like this to defend my beliefs. I was not attacking your belief - I asked an honest question as to why you think the way you do and hold a belief that you will live on after you die.
          
          You response has been that you do know - but you are too uneducated to be able to express why. Perhaps - if you ask yourself this question honestly - you will discover that you do not consciously know why you believe this. Then when you look deeper inside - maybe you will find the real reason.
          
          - - - - - - -
          
            I didn't feel like you were attacking my beliefs.
          I felt that we had a good discussion.
          
            I can express many reasons for why I believe the way that I do.  I have done so many times in these forums.
            I guess you didn't read them.
          
             Concerning my comment about not being educated enough to explain why I believe the way I do    WAS a cop out.   I just didn't want to say  "but you don't/wouldn't understand"
             I guess you knew that?
          
             I do have reasons that I haven't shared here.
             And I have reasons for not having done so.  YET.
          
             I will say that I believe in an afterlife, not necessarily as taught from scriptures.
          
             There are many things that I do not believe as taught from scriptures.  These things also help me in holding onto MY personal beliefs.  And I think that you do know what they are.
          
            I think that you know more about me and my beliefs than you let on.    YA just want to see me say it.

          replyreport
          1. 58

             Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Then why bring it up as a reason to believe?
              
             
             
             Good - I think so too.
             
             
             You have never expressed any rational reasons. Not once. That is why I asked. The Turin Shroud - which you have never seen - was one of the reasons you claimed to believe Jesus was the One and Only Son of God.
             
             I did not accept this as a rational reason, but I most certainly read what you wrote.
             
             
             
             Do you mean that I wouldn't understand - or I wouldn't accept your reasoning?
             
             
             OK - but I am not a mind reader, and if you do not want to share your reasons - why not say so in the first place instead of running around the houses talking about milking cows and making fruit stop growing?
             
             This would be one reason why people get frustrated when speaking with you. Throwing out meaningless gibberish instead of making a reasonable response makes it difficult to hold a conversation with you.
             
             
             
             Of course not. I am sure you have made up your own version. I am just interested in why.
             
             
             
             I certainly know some of them, because - despite your accusation - I do read what you write. But - sometimes it gets lost in the gibberish about milking cows or changing light bulbs or whatever you throw in.
             
             
             

             replyreport
11. 72

    getitriteposted 12 years ago

    I think I will start a thread about my impulsive imaginary thoughts, then when anyone asks why I think like this, or disagrees with me, I will tell them that they are free to think the way they like, and I will think the way I like.
    
    On second thought, never mind.  A thread like that wouldn't make any sense.

    replyreport