WHO IS A CHRISTIAN?
This is a vital and common question. A christian is not just a follower of Jesus Christ because it came from the word CHRIST. Christianity is a Faith walk not just the play of Religion.
1. A Christian is the saved, with primary assignment to share the gospel and win souls.
2. A Christian already has faith, grows it by acting on the word of God daily.
3. A Christian has eternal life, he/she died,buried and resurrected in Christ Jesus.
4. A Christian is righteous in Christ Jesus
5. A Christian has the mind of Christ, an excellent Spirit.
6. A Christian is created in love, and should love everybody including non Christians!
7. A Christian has the nature of God, co-creator with him.
One who saw God in Christ and follows his path of love which will lead to eternity,bliss, with God.One who believes in paradise comes in death or death is the door to God.
MOST IMPORTANTLY,HE MUST BE BORN AGAIN AS A CHRISTIAN
Does that include stealing other people's writing and posting it as your own ?
http://pojuoyemade.blogspot.com/2008/06 … et-it.html
8. And nothing on earth is more sanctimonious than a "born again" christian! Ignorant by choice. I
One who has a recreated human spirit, born of the spirit not just a church goer or a religious person. He/She is the express image of Christ.
According the the Bible everyone is the express image of Christ--weather baptized or not. We love him becasue he first loved us and all the lawas are writtin in our hearts and minds and The Kingdom of GOD is within us.
So the Kingdom of God is within you?
Pity, I didn't catch that vibe.
I guess you didn't read your Bible then..pitty.
............................ and your approach to people of different opinions than yours, makes me less incline to read the book. [did I use enough dots this time?]
Don't read it then. It really doesn't matter to me. I believe you are just looking for a fight.
Dots can mean a pause too.
You forgot the most important definition of a Christian. IT is a person who has asked Jesus to be thier Lord and Savior. Without that the rest is just talk.
Sooo glad I am not a christian.
I prefer to spend my life improving others' lives and fighting BS and lies wherever I find it.
Case in point.
Why? From what? health concious. Got some pills to sell - christian? LOL
Speaking of irony and divine intervention, I had completely forgotten about this time I commented on your arrogant post. Before I found this again I read http://hubpages.com/_38e9u1qsuw2pw/hub/ … s-Among-Us by SirDent. Before I could not figure out who you think gave you authority to be the knower of all things. Now I know that you are only a Troll who gets satisfaction by causing others aggravation. I acknowledge your weakness and will allow you to be a jerk. You may continue to instigate others in an attempt to make yourself look knowledgeable,
As far as whether I am a christian or whether I sell pills. Yes, my father dedicated his life ministering to others in small towns of North Carolina and while I am not affiliated with an organized church myself I do consider myself a christian.
As far as the pills, no I sell no pills. Pills always have unneeded fillers and are hard to digest so they are not a good delivery method for anything. As far as selling nutrition products, yes I do and am proud to. I find it much more fulfilling and feel I am doing so much more for society than my previous endeavor of real estate. This is especially true considering I have found an outstanding company that found a new way to produce nutritional products. Yes I know your response already -
Any one who has taken the time to read my hubs will find much more than the company info. All of my hubs are from focused research which anyone like yourself never does because there is no motivation. There is about to be a revolution in how we look at health and I plan on helping bring it about. There is much more to health than just taking in less calories than you burn, go read and you might learn.
Irony and divine intervention all over that
But this is certainly christian behavior on your part. You have insulted me - I apparently am a troll who had a part in the death of some one I have never even heard of. And to top it off you managed to get a sales pitch in along with an affiliate tracker in the link you left. Very christian of you
Nice. I hope you make some money from it.
Sorry you read more into my comments all along - My belief that you are a troll has nothing to do with Christianity or promoting something someone believes is worthy nor am I accusing you of being responsible for anyones death. Where did you come up with that about being responsible for someones death, (sounds like you might have something to hide) :-)
My believe that you are a troll is because of your arrogant statement of "I prefer to spend my life improving others' lives and fighting BS and lies wherever I find it." Who died and made you king to judge others. Stating your opinion is one thing, being a dogmatic jerk who thinks his opinion is more important than someone else's is a different thing entirely. Once again you found a way to get under my desire to accept others as they are. I apologize for insulting you and am no longer going to accept my own desire to offset your caustic opinions whether cloaked in humor or not.
Sometimes I forget that I not only have the ability but the responsibility to ignore trolls so again forgive me.
Please forgive me for thinking that when you said :
You were not actually being insulting - you were merely trying to accept people for what they are.
Once again - very christian of you.
Your comments and the words used can really only be described in one way.
I realize it is very easy for people like you to use the anonymity of the internet to say things they would not say to a "real live person."
But please do not try and fool anyone that you were being anything other than offensive.
Trying to instigate to the end?
Nope - I would have called you a troll to your face for the same action. Once again my statements were only about the arrogance of your statement of being the savior of the world and the seer of BS (if I told you to look in the mirror for BS It would be a direct insult, silly but still a direct insult.) then you insulted me in your usual flippant way.
Passively aggressive huh - I'll take that to describe my stance.
What would you analysis yourself as?
And by the way if you were referring to my use of Health Conscious as being afraid of my name being known it would not be hard to find it for anyone who has a desire. Mostly I believe my message speaks for itself so I don't need or want to make it about who I am.
And lastly, the part about accepting you is not necessarily a christian taught trait. That is more from my own attempt to improve myself. I don't know what brought on your obvious dislike or fear of Christianity but you would probably be happier if you let it go.
Please have a nice day.
Yes I read between the lines Mark. There seems to be some hostility in you, perhaps you were betrayed by "religion" or by some professing Christian. If it was a professing Christian I want to say that I am sorry if you didn't have a pleasant encounter with a Christian in the past.
And Mark you are right there is a lot of lies going on in the name of religion. But if you take the life of Jesus Christ and compare it to any other religious leader or atheistic thinker in history and you'll find that nobody answers the questions of origin, meaning, morality and destiny better than Jesus Christ. Nobody has improved more lives and exposed more hypocrisy and lies than Christ the promised Messiah. Yes some who "say" there are Christians do horrible things in His name but never judge His teachings by its abuses. If someone reads the gospel of John in the New Testament devoid of bias they would not just simply dismiss the claims Jesus makes. I encourage you and others not to get sidetracked with those who claim to follow Him, look carefully at the Source, get to know Him personally and you will know who is really a follower and who isn't. Jesus said, "by their fruits ye shall know them" (Matt 7:20) and He also said, "...I am the truth..." (John 14:6) and "the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).
I beg to differ. I would credit Buddha with at LEAST the same amount of influence as Jesus, but in terms of actual individual lives impacted, Buddha probably has had a greater reach than Jesus. Zen Buddhism in particular seems to be accessible to practitioners of other religions and to atheists in a way that Jesusism generally isn't.
So you would be a seeker of Truth then? One who separates fiction from fact?
I certainly try, although seeking the Truth with a capital T is not my primary goal. And leads me to suspect there is something else to follow.
Good of you to drag poor Andrew's thread back up from the dead. He has had to resurrect it himself several times. Better than Jesus you could say.
Actually I am somewhat of a newcomer to this forum and thought I would post a reply or two here and there. I notice you did not comment on my question regarding the separation of fiction from fact...
One man's fiction appears to be another man's fact from my perspective.
I consider evolution to be a pretty solid fact based theory, but many here argue against it because it goes against the "facts" in their bible.
Well, I myself prefer to deal in facts not fiction. Hence I don't put much water in that old adage of "separating fact from fiction". I mean, think about it... if one separates, (takes away), takes fact out of fiction, what is one left with...? Is it not the FICTION?
Explain please. Not sure what you meant with this.
mmm.... You stated that "one man's fiction apears to be another man's fact.." and went on to say that you "considered evolution to be a pretty solid "fact based theory"... but many here argue that it goes against the "facts" in their Bible".
so I was bringing up the point that I myself prefer to deal in facts (truth) only, regardless of whetehr it involves evolution or the Bible. Hence my question regarding separating fact from fiction or fiction from fact. I myself prefer to deal with truth (fact) in all topics/subjects.
Hope you understood the question. Who Is A Christian? Are you a Christian? This is not one of those religious questions you've heard all past ages. If your answer is no, then you're welcome to know who a Christian really is, many have contributed here in the forums with heated arguments, debates and resolutions. The truth is, this "eternal" question was inspired by the Holy Ghost beyond the understanding and play of Self, Science, and Religion. You'll also agree with me that Self, Science and Religion have failed the entire world. You may ask how real is your Holy Ghost? The question still remains "Who Is A Christian?"
The realities of Christ Death, Victory and the Resurrection Power....Not the play of Christian religion and it's associated politics.
In fact Andrew, I did understand your question quite well; my question to you would be this....do you? First off, I won't agree with you on anything until I know your faith; no I don't mean religion, I mean what you believe in. Because if your faith does not reside 100% in the government of God and His Law then you and I have nothing in common. There are no if's, and's, or but's; either it does or it doesn't, and unlike 99.9% of Christianity, I am not a respecter of persons. Simple as that. It is because I understand the responsibility and honor that comes with that title and office, Christian, that I hold firm to the guidelines set forth by those who do honor to that office and title when describing myself or others of faith.
Perhaps this answers your question, perhaps not.........perhaps it raises more questions than presents answers.
I believe in the Death, Victory, and Resurrection of my Lord Jesus Christ.
I'm never surprised whenever I observe people who are not stable in their profession of Christ.
Our walk of faith as it is written in the Scriptures are not carnal but they're mighty through God
Love is the greatest Power, and Law of the universe.
GAG me with a Spoon!!! pullease. When God made Adam The Word was made Flesh----WE ARE the Word of God. I see you don't read your Bible all that much but allow someone else to read it to you and tell you exactly what they want you to know of it and what their interpretation is.
Some things out of that Bible: Jesus stated that his followers NOT use a Book because He and HIS father (he didn't say OUR Father) is not in any book. Those who also wrote the Bible state that not all of Jesus's miracles and works are included in the Bible. Jesus also stated that we will do more then him and greater things then he ever did. He also did not coonsider anything that he did as a miracle and expected us to do the same. They were common things to do in those days. Jesus was NOT a Christian and he did NOT belong to any Church.
Jesus states very clearly to ask seek and prove what has been told to you. He was a smart man, he was.....for he knew what they would do to his words and how political games would play in all of this.
Read you Bible by yourself without anyone else's interpretation, unless you can't read then have someone un-biased read it to you word for word and not the KJV becasue that is so mis translated and full of political games.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63. Christianity only came after Jesus; followers of Christ. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. Hebrews 13:8
Miracles are very real today as He rightly promised in the Scriptures. No Sentiments! Above all, a Christian is Christlike, dwelling and walking in Love.
Jesus is dead....and you didn't even listen to SCRIPTURE---so how does that make you a **Christ***ian? NOT everything is in scripture---find that in the Bible and find where Jesus said not to go by a BOOK.........It is in there, I promise you that.
How dead is He? He is the resurrected Christ. A Christian is beyond a mere religion and it's associated politics.
John 10:34-35 saying;
34. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35. If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken.
There's a Big difference between A Christian and Christianity as a religion.
Andrew - watch this film, and see how your perception might be changed.
You are welcome.
Hahahaha! It's a choice. I don't play religion, you ought to know by now.
Nothing to do with religion. And of course you play religion. You are playing it right now. Not prepared to watch and learn huh?
Or even watch and think?
Hahaha. Great! Just visited the blog/site. It's very carnal. Not surprised at all, many more things will unfold, but they that know their God shall be strong and do exploits. Anyway, remember it's a choice. If not, are you willing to accept the Lordship of Jesus?
But you didn't watch the video huh?
Nice avatar by the way - an expensive automobile.
Nothing carnal about it at all. Nothing like a golden calf. Nothing like saying money is the root of your personality.
What would jesus have driven? A Mercedes sports of course.
You guys are so funny. You call me close minded because I won't follow your fairy tale, but you won't even spend a few hours educating yourselves.
Now, Now Mark, You KNOW they aren't allowed to read anything but what they clergy in their church allows them to.....and THINK---they don't have the concept of that at all. They are supposed to sit and listen to whatever BS their clergy tells them.........
Wow, these quotes and counter quotes can be a little hard to follow. But when John 1 says the word was made flesh it is not speaking of Adam or of us but it speaks of Jesus who is the eternal Christ. He was in Heaven at the dawn of time. He left Heaven and was born of a virgin. Back to John 1. The bible states the word always existed, all things were made by Him for Him and through Him and nothing was made without Him. Him in that verse is Jesus. Yes the old testament does refer to men as being sons of God but the writer in the new testament does not agree with it he only restates it to ask why they got mad at Jesus for saying something of Himself that they said of themselves.
Wow, these quotes and counter quotes can be a little hard to follow. But when John 1 says the word was made flesh it is not speaking of Adam or of us but it speaks of Jesus who is the eternal Christ. He was in Heaven at the dawn of time. He left Heaven and was born of a virgin. Back to John 1. The bible states the word always existed, all things were made by Him for Him and through Him and nothing was made without Him. Him in that verse is Jesus. Yes the old testament does refer to men as being sons of God but the writer in the new testament does not agree with it he only restates it to ask why they got mad at Jesus for saying something of Himself that they said of themselves.
Scripture IS broken!!! WHO said it isn't? Jesus didn't say it. What is the difference between the two, according to you that is?
Who is a Christian? A Christian here in this relevation is one that is dead to self and religion but alive in the move of the Spirit and His Power having these vital great eternal virtues, Love and the Word resident in his/her heart. A re-created human spirit by the Word.
Meaningless rhetoric - again. But I forgive you. You know not what you do.
Mark, i'm glad to have you participate in this thread. I can only discuss on issues related to my passion and calling in life. I cannot discuss on any religion outside one related to the realities of Christ as many do go on here in the forums having nothing to do with Christianity. It's a choice! Happy hubbing!
He is babbling about who a Christian is...a Christian is a follower of Christ; a follower of the Messiah, popularly known as Jesus. That means you believe what Jesus taught; and more important than believing Him; you DO what He taught as well.
Of course you'd have to read His book to know what He taught. Leave the poetry and tell people to read what Jesus taught and did and then do it. That is a Christian.
The life of a Christian, i mean one who is born of the spirit - The Word of God!, One who believes in the death and the resurrection power of Jesus Christ. One ordained to get answers to prayers. Mathew 7:7, Jeremiah 33:3. One whom the Law of the Spirit of Life has made Free from the Law of the Spirit of sin and death. Hallelujah!
As I said earlier, meaningless rhetoric - I am proud not to be so selfish.
All praise the Spaghetti Monster - May the sauce be with you!
Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is the Son of God, the Master and Creator of the universe...........that means you 2 Mark
You will eventually see the error of your ways.
And suffer the consequences...............
Why does it matter so much whether or not Jesus is the son of God or not? I can't really see anyone professing the words of God in any manner that doesn't suggest you worship the Anti-Christ. And for this I mean, you're blind to what Jesus said, confussed by his powers, because people with power (modern politicians and religious leaders) because they must be nobel men or Gods to be able to wield miracles, yet the miracle I seems to have witnessed is the one called, hypocracy.
Surely without you I would never have understood why you will never find God. You have your eyes feasting on a man, instead of God. Why would Jesus come back? He knows you aren't looking for God. It was Jesus who said, that you must love the Father as you love me.
You will never get it. You can't see the shame Christianity causes. It's shameful, and repentance isn't a tool, it's an action, not a saying but not doing it.
You put so much emphisis on the word, and you don't pay enough attention to the way you preach. I dig the Bible, but I can not stand Christians. You have this ability to make anyone who doesn't feel like you, feel like crap.
You tell people they don't understand who Jesus is, but argue also amongts youselves over who's interpretation is the right one, then you congregate and piss on your opposers. You are war gamers. Jesus is not a game. Whether it is real or not, doesn't matter as much as it does in what you are doing with it.
I think you intentionally fight with people who oppose you because you simply know you are right, and your not right. You care too much about the next life, and not enough about the one we all share. I don't give a shit if you go to Heaven or Hell. I can care about you all I want to, but just because I care doesn't mean it will save your soul.
So, why should anyone believe that because Jesus cared that much that he will save us? I just think you are so dumb to not see that all we have is, as dorky as it sounds, is each other. There is not some holy man waiting up above ready to come down and pick us up on a cloud. But God is right here waiting for you all to pull your heads out of you butts and help each other out.
World could fall apart tomorow, but who will help? God? How you gonna get his help if you don't know who to ask? Jesus maybe? I aint talking about preachers either.
But whatevea right? right now you are laughing in your boots, or praying in your minds about how much help that girl needs, but right now I am doing the same for you all, because I am not going to get help from Jesus. The only place I am gonna get help is from you. Hellooooo?
And no, Satan is not in my brain.
It's quite interesting to hear the views of some of our beloved non Christians. The question is "WHO IS A CHRISTIAN?" The Holy Spirit who has come to reside in the heart of a born again Christian and that is what makes one a Christian. The word Christian is a divine life not the ordiances and forms of religion.
Many do cover themselves under the umbrella of Christianity and still do evil and all forms of wickedness... that is religion for you... walking outside in, instead of inside out.
A Christian has overcome the devil, not your fellow man be him a Christian or Non Christian but they evil influences which are negative in their nature spiritually. Yes , you defeated the devil, his demons and other minor spirits far back ago on the cross, dead and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is because Jesus took his/her place. This means, a christian is free from the law and powers of the devil (Lucifer) on sin and death. "For the weapons of his/her warfare are not canal(Of Sensory Perceptions) but mighty through God(His Word) to the pulling down of every strong hold and any imagination that exalts itself above the knowledge of God" (2 Corinthians 10:4).
He now has the inherient Power of the Holy Ghost to make a decree and have it established... Fear Not! (Luke 10:19 and interestingly to know your abilities in Christ. Mark 16:17-18) " And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
A Christians stays victorious over evil influences of the devil by Resisting these comon tools of the devil * Fear and ** Doubt/Unbelieve but meditates on the Word Power daily. One who is a Christian has the mediated Word alive in his heart/spirit. (John 6:63).
One who is Christian continues to live in Perfect Peace and Divine Health by Loving and Forgiving others arround and beyond him/her, Christian or Non Christian, counting No Errors!
This is the Mindset of the Regenerated Christian!
This would be for anyone on the holy or spiritual path.I am by origin half Hindu and half Parsi yet I belive in Jesus Christ as one of thr Prophets or sages to have walked this planet.An enlightened one-a messenger.
Like the saying "change yourself and the world changes"
The more you understand your divinity the more you see it in the outer world.
Divinity is not a mystery nor for the most Holy! It is a faith walk and not by sensory perceptions. You have the insight and light in you Mohit! There was a fulfilled reason for Christ's death and resurrection. This only works by "faith" even in your own religion, In HubPages, the more you are actively participating, the more you're grounded in the usage towards your success, fulfilling your passion and helping other new and old hubbers. This is more beneficial to a supposed Christian even in the exercises of Spiritual things, by believing and acting the Word. Applied Knowledge is Power! Not stories or supposed history!
I agree in life there are a lot of things you have to start doing before you are able to comprehend it.Speculating or contemplating is just the start,one must walk the path,this requires faith as the Chinese philsopher lao Tsu said"the journey of a thousand miles starts with one step".
I agree about Jesus Christ I love him as I love all the Prophets and sages.The Sikh saints also decided wether to fight or to die without fighting.Being in tune with God they would each do as they felt was correct in accordance to the divine will .
I was just reading what you guys were writing, and be it as it is, your dialog here is compelling and not so outragous as those who profess they are christian and then do not do what they say.
When I read things like this I believe thier is still hope for the world to get it straight. I really like how you chose your words andrew08, and Mohit, when you not busy selling your book, you are way more comprehensible and worthy of a listen.
I am always compelled and fascinated when people of opposite religions or beliefs can come together rightously for the right reasons, differences aside and look to the light of knowledge and understanding.
I totally agree with you andrew, that you walk by faith not sensory perception. And I someone else said, I can't remember if it was you, that you first have to believe it, and just to believe takes a lot of faith.
Who is a David, actually, not a Christian - David Tennant.
(sorry - had a waggish moment)
David was not a Christian, but the Word of God became flesh in the person of Jesus and came from the linage of David. Christ in a believer is the hope of glory. Made righteous in Him. Your faith is working now!
I know a lot of girls think David Tennant is divine, but I don't know that any would go so far as to consider him a blood relative of Jesus Christ!
Dr Who is played by David Tennant, not someone called Christian.
Hence the response - Who is a Christian? No, he's a David.
Such an interesting thread this is. I spent over twenty years as a devoted born again Christian and now am enjoying a broader perspective. I like how the Tao is described. The moment you think you can define it, it is indeed not that.
The divine, whatever it is, is in, around, through and within all living matter in the universe. I don't think it cares what religion we are, only that we travel to the inner most recesses of our being to commune with it.
Mark...love your humor.
My the source indeed be with all of us.
Jesus would croak to see what Christianity has become.
I think David got favor from God because of his weaknesses. Through his repentance and devotion to God even when he messed up and he prayed that one of his sons would be seated at his throne for ever and God granted it to him because even though David was one who sinned pretty often, what resided in his heart was a weakness that became brave through God. 'let the words of our mouths and the meditations of our hearts be acceptable in thy sights."
Job was the same, not a sinner but on his death bed, he clung to God, he repented and asked that God listen to his heart, not his actions while he prayed for death.
Or Solomon, who had one prayer, to be the wisest man, he didn't pray for money or women because he wanted to be a good king.
Moses, prayed for his people of Isreal.
What they all had in common, besides devotion to God, is that their hearts were selfless and they desired happiness, justice, and the survival of their people. Which tells me, what is in the word that is so important is not what you call God, by which name you chose, but where you are in your heart, you inner most being.
So it says that when you make yourself known to God, God will be known to you, but first you have to know yourself because in yourself is where you understand God, and not everyone gets the same message, but everyone get's what it is they need to hear.
It's proper. Job was already perfect, he prayed for death. David was a sinner he prayed for forgivness, Solomon was born on the throne and prayed to be a good king. Jesus prayed for forgivness and salvation for all man because 'they know not what they do'.
Ourwardly lots of things look selfish, but what can you know about the secerets and weaknesses that people keep in thier souls but God, who is in our conscience so when you feel bad, you do not have to tell anyone to be forgiven, but it's a simple act that God knows and when you can forgive yourself as well as others, then I think God is pretty happy. Maybe not so happy with our actions, but happy that we are still capable of compassion, not just for ourselves, but through ourselves we have it for other people.
Suffering sucks, but it is a pretty effective tool to have to really understand other people and feel compassion for them. It's like a rich kid born with a silver spoon. They look down on the poor or meek as lesser humans but has no idea how strong and brave the meek and poor really are.
anyways, rambling on...
hope i got you right, i thought you mean king David in the bible not David Tennant, anyway one who is a Christian lives in grace and faith having a heart after God like King David.
Dude, what are you talking about?
Everyone knows Dr Who is a story and the Daleks are pretend.
I believe your little cult has changed the names of some of the players - The Doctor changed to Jesus Christ; Davros changed to Satan; The Brigadier changed to Peter; Daleks into Demons etc etc etc.
Although, if it is any consolation, my Mum tells me I did used to believe in Daleks when I was little and hide behind the couch when they came on TV. I even once freaked out in a toy store when we walked in and there was a full size plastic Dalek in the store.
You can change though. All it requires is a little free thought. I wish you well in your quest for knowledge.
Exterminate! Exterminate !
Mark, good morning. Something so real than mere religion is knowing what is already done and promises. The life of a Christian is not one trying to attain greater spiritual heights but a daily walk of faith. This has reminded me of someone in my locality, an admirer and a critic who said i was in one cult because of the demonstration of God's Power through my life via faith in God's word, because he had the mindset and saw that miracles only happened in the bible days and cannot happen just like that again without some mixed up with evil powers, well that contradicted the faith filled words of Jesus that we will do greater works than Him, saying
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believed on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father". (John 14: 12). If we have faith in the word of God who is Spirit and Life (John 6:63). Right from cradle, I only get involved with what works and stand the test of time. If the Scriptures never worked in my own hands and life, i would have dropped it long ago! because i consciously keep off from unfruitful stories, forms, mediums and ordinances of religion. This is a FAITH walk not religion nor sensory perception. Remember the thread "Who is a Christian?"
Andrew - good afternoon. You were the one who bought up Dr. Who. I was just sharing a very personal, heart-wrenching story of the fear I felt as a 4-year-old. But if that story didn't wrench y your heart, I feel sorry for you. And if you don't see the similarities between Dr. Who and christianity, well......
Dr Who is far cooler than Jesus though. He can regenerate at will. As often as he likes. Much better than Jesus.
I did actually meet Tom Baker in London, so I know he is real. It was a major turning point in my young life and a massive relief came over me when I realised I no longer needed to fear the Daleks. He even spoke to me. He said,
"Verily I say unto you - Piss off and leave me in peace to drink my coffee. I am sick and tired of people asking me if I am the real Dr Who. I wish I had never taken that bloody job."
Which I interpreted to mean, "Go out into the world and spread the WORD that all religion is political rubbish designed to keep the masses in ignorance. Ye shall walk in the valley of the light and the dark and truly your reward will come when the time is right. Go thou now and henceforce call yourself a prophet of Roddenberry."
Could be just a matter of misinterpretation though - what do you think?
Christian is one, who will not be made known by name.
Christians is not the name given by god, its given by non-christians in those day.
We can know that in acts of bible.
That's why jesus told, you will know them by actions, not by words.
At the same time, your inner spirit will say what is inside of you.
Hi Mark, it will interest you to know earlier before now that i will never argue or debate God's word. Why? I've come to know and understand the Epignosis(Hebrew; meaning full and complete knowledge of Him) who called us unto glory and power. If you do not believe, refrain from making mockery of the scriptures. I tell you Mark, grief not the Holy Spirit, the God of Elijah, the ancient of days and the King of kings. Sow the right the seed!
I have aslo warned him of the karmic consequences.Yet this reminds me when we are young we are told not to play with fire as it will burn but unless we get burned we do not understand.This is life.
Of course you won't argue or debate god's word. You have already decided and nothing anyone says will change your mind It interests me not in the slightest, I already know that. I don't blame you for it - I never start an argument I know I will lose either
Your threats do not bother me either. Why? Because I do not fear. Dr Who taught me that, thanks. Still here mocking the word. Sowing the right seed
Although I do find it funny how many christians eventually resort to threats of some kind or another and are often prepared to back them up with physical violence. I have the missing teeth and knife scars to prove it. lolo But look out -
The Muslims are coming !
Saint Mark, Prophet of Roddenberry.
One who is Christian is a representative and the representation of Jesus Christ. This means He/She has authority over all powers in the universe and manifests the image of Him respectively. Walking and Living in Love unto eternity!
A Christian, i mean one who has a recreated human spirit in Christ has the Miracle working ability in hm/her. These virtues go beyond the comprehension of religion and self.
but I only believe in Christianity..not with Christians....
*doesn't mean i don't believe in myself...
Who knows, I believe in Christ, I am not a Christain and I don't like the religion. But I still love Jesus.
I don't think that makes me a christain, I think it makes me smart enough to know what is going on. Following a church doesn't mean congregating and putting down other churches and practices.
Being part of the church is having in yourself the Spirit of God, which to me is the Spirit of Life. Following Jesus means I accepted his teachings as correct and true for myself and showing compassion and forgiveness and understanding for all peoples not just ones that attend congregations or who are part of some crazy cult like brotherhood, or that I even have to be certain He actually exisist (which I don't dout Mark, lol).
Doesn't mean I have to give 10%, especially in a church, eh hem, exchanging monies in God's house, if you can remember, really pisses off the chief (Jesus). I doesn't mean I wont and am not capable of making mistakes.
It means I do the best that I can with what I have, when I need help I ask and I always find a reason to be thankful. It means when I mess up, I remember it and try not to keep repeating my mistakes. It means I show people the respect I would expect someone to show for me. It means when I get angry, I should slow down before I do something I would regret.
Jesus says a lot of things, but mostly desprite all the crusades and murders and wars and sufferings that go on and have gone on in the past in the name of Christ, he said love each other. Or in the modern day case, Learn to Love each other.
The world is not getting any nicer today then it was 2 thousand years ago. Today we just have more distractions and such that not a lot of people who claim to be christain or followers of God have actually read the whole entire Bible.
Whether the translation is whack or not, why does it have to matter so much? It still wouldn't change the world that we live in.
In my own way I am very much a christain, I just wish there was a better name for it cause I don't like being associated with what people think about Christains. Mostly I am agnostic because I believe in many things, but the one who is at the top of my list besides God, The God, My God, is Jesus.
Miracles do happen that can not be explained like Andrew08 said, but it is always personal and and understanding that comes between two things, you and God and sometimes a third.
Not being a christian doesn't mean you wont go to Heaven or have eternal life or damnation. A babtist would tell you it does, but it is not true. You do not have to say, "I accept Jesus as my savior and ask him into my heart" you do not have to attend sudnay services to find out what God or Jesus is all about and you certainly do not have to disbelieve in God because the world made a mess of everything.
The only thing left, IMHO, is God. I chose to listen to Jesus or whomevers wrote the Bible, and I have chosen to learn and listen from people or just about everything there is something to learn from.
If it all came from God, then all of it serves a purpose. If you can't see it and we are nothing like Mark believes, then I have every reason to believe that human life will spring again and again and whether or not you recognize the you, you are today or not, the only thing I can realize is that you will know when you get there that you are alive and probabaly ask the same things.
We aren't getting out, so we need fix it.
You're right in your analysis. Why? You will notice that religion is political and Christ was totally against it, because it's a move of canality instead of the spirit. John 6:63. More than religion and it's system. A Christian is called to do the Word, walk in faith and love without conditions!
I use to be like you Sandra; not dealing with Christianity because of the way it is portrayed by the media - and by most Christians. But what I learned is that God works through man and they deliver His message. So if man gets corrupt as he is; he can and will lie, perverting the Word of God and water everything down to what we have today.
Jesus Christ (Christ meaning Messiah in Hebrew, and that meaning Anointed One) never taught any one to be a Christian. He taught them what His Father in Heaven wanted of them. The disciples never called themselves Christians - that name developed because they were followers of Christ.
The sad fact that what we get in the name of JESUS, that simply isn't so - so then people simply don't believe or feel like I did and how you feel Sandra, and that is trusting nothing but keeping the name and teachings of Jesus. But when we run into a teaching priest or preacher that will teach us, we will learn more about the Bible and Jesus's teachings.
Like why it is important the tithe, why it is important to congregate on the Sabbath day, why it is important to love our brother and sister, and more important then that HOW to love them. Why we shouldn’t eat certain foods, etc.
You know about how Jesus got upset that they were exchanging money in the church and got mad throwing their tables over and sort; but Jesus's ministry mainly condemned the Pharisees - if that was modern days Jesus would be here condemning places like the Catholic church, and all modern Christian churches because they are not following the will of His Father in Heaven.
So Sandra and everybody else; I hope that with your zeal you get more knowledge so you can clearly see the difference between religion and Jesus Christ. Luke 4 told us His custom was that He went into the synagogue or Church, every Sabbath day and stood up to read. This was His custom - if we are Christian, meaning like Christ, we should follow that lead.
That's what being a Christian means doing as Christ did and following His teachings. And you can find Jesus from Genesis to Revelation, in every book.
Peace and grace
Who tries to be close to Jesus but choose a way that takes him away from jesus.By which name Jesus(PBUH) called his God.I think he didnt call by the word God.Muslims have far more respect for Jesus than christians.
I know no christian is going to agree on this.
At 14 years old, I asked Jesus to come and live in my heart. I asked Him to forgive me of my sin and to help me be the person He needs me to be. To guide me and lead me. And I have been trying my best since that day. Although I will admit I do stumble........I am human, it's good to know that I can be forgiven for it when I mess up. And it's such a comfort to know where I will go when I die. The retirement is out of this world!
Actions speak louder than words.
You called me a troll because you do not believe what I said. There is not much I can do about that. If you knew me at all, you would know I consistently attack scammers and spammers both here and other places I interact - on and off line.
This is part of my fight against BS. I try and spot it and get rid of it before it can damage me or any one else.
I spent ten years as a massage therapist, making people feel good - and would only take money if the person could pay. But - you choose to see me as a troll without thinking or making any inquiries. On top of that, you are trying to make money from our interaction by leaving an affiliate tracker in a link to a hub about people who apparently got pleasure from the death of some one I have never even heard of and suggesting that I was some how the same as these people.
The part about accepting me as I am is purely a passive/aggresive way of insulting me.
I have certainly accepted you for what you are.
I am sure you would call me a troll and a jerk to my face lolo
ciao christian - good luck selling the products you are pushing.
Myself - I think a well balanced diet of good quality ingredients in the first place means you do not need any of the rubbish you are peddling. But what do I know? Nothing according to you.
Actually I kinda like reading the hubs and forums so I have seen a lot of your writings, you're hard to miss and your believes are well known.
I called you a troll this particular time because you made a derogatory comment which could only be considered as an insult to anyone of a particular religion without any explanition for your feelings or backup of your position. There was nothing there to believe or not.
Can be a noble idea (protecting the less informed) but like many idealistic theories, it can do more damage than good if not done with finess, honor and very in depth knowledge.
As an Irish friend use to say "Good on ya" for making people feel better, and only taking money from those who can pay what a christian thing to do.
I apologize to everyone about the huppage tracker link I used, I just learned about that feature after you said that, hadn't taken the time to learn it yet. You have to admit that the big ole "share it" button makes it an easy place to get a link. Thanks for pointing it out, I was wondering how to do that about getting credit from traffic to other hubs.
Ok again about the troll comment - Your own conscious is the only place the reference to the boys death is linked to you. If you had read the hub you would have learned that those people were only an example of how troll's operate. A troll is some one who seems to take pleasure from inflaming others on controversial subjects. It might just be me but...
"Sooo glad I am not a christian.
I prefer to spend my life improving others' lives and fighting BS and lies wherever I find it' in a forum "Who is a christian" serves no purpose other than cause controversy.
But wait that's not what made me realize you were a troll. I think my original comment was "Spare us" because personally I believe it is very tasteless and uncaring to call someone's religion BS regardless of what you believe. No what brought on the realization that you are a troll was when you commented back "Why? From what? health concious. Got some pills to sell - christian? LOL" and the other quick, caustic and insulting comments you made to everyone else.
And to help convince me of my assessment, you came back accusing me of insulting you. Humm, from a simple "spare us" I get labeled a pill pusher and a christian to boot. I still believe it is ironic that I had just finished reading Sir Dent's hub when I saw your first response.
Yes as much as I try the aggressive is still with me but the passive keeps me from reverting to my construction past. I still try to explain why, instead of being left wondering where the anger and fear come from.
My assessment of you, you have a strong fear and anger of that fear which causes you to lash out at others who have done nothing to you.
My only question is where do you get your quality ingredients?
To sum it up, I did not like your caustic comments and then your instant insults. I do have an aggressive trait which I try to control but sometimes it bulges out.
As far as you being the savior of the world, maybe this is just a marketing scam. You promote your product 5 times more on your profile page than I promote mine. You have manipulated the rules to be able to use more than the two self promotion links. You simply use different domains, I have seven or eight domains, but stayed in the spirit of the rules. You haven't and you call me a spammer.
You are your product and you make your living from advertising which comes from traffic you drive to your sites. Is this just your sick way of driving traffic, throwing out insults hoping for reactions.
Yes I think you are using the sad marketing method of calling everyone a scammer and spammer simply for your own rewards.
Oh by the way, 15 years as an Electrical Contractor and many people had light, heat and water because of my genorisity but again it is not about me. I have a message I wish to share and one of the answers to a problem instead of a desire for a reputation.
(about a 80 or maybe even as low as 70 tomorrow)
Good Morning Mark! Good morning Health Conscious!
It is refreshing to see the two of you are hard at it. LOL
I wish the two of you a wonderful day and HAPPINESS. C.S.
When the spaceship comes with snowcones...ALL you guys are gonna be sorry!
Call me passive/aggresive if you will, but I was using the words "spare me" in the same way you used them.
i.e. "You are lying and talking complete garbage. Please do me a favor and shut up."
I didn't think I would need to explain, and if this is the way you show people you love them....
Touchy when the accusations are aimed at you. tsk tsk....
I will gladly shut up for my purpose was accomplished. You are still loved :-)
I must admit to getting a little upset when people call me a liar and a troll. But that is the way christians such as yourself show "love." Even though I don't need forgiving, I am sure you will forgive me also. lolo
At least you didn't burn me at the stake or invade my country.
Thank you. I really appreciate it when you guys show your true colors - it helps convince me even further that the christian religion is a joke.
I am glad your purpose was accomplished. I hope you feel better.
Touchy? This is not a mere accusation, this is a downright attempt at character assassination.
You don't love Mark, I suggest you look in the mirror. Mark is just a pawn to you and your "God", and all you are interested in is getting your way here hence the "I will gladly shutup for my purpose was accomplished".
Unless you become as a child you shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Childish indeed.
Too bad you guys cannot stake us like you used to, after all we all must be a bunch of liars because your interpretation of your book tells you so and your preachers say so, right?
Thank "God" for people like Tom Paine, who didn't worship the same "God" as you do. People like Paine were also staked too for disagreeing on things such as "Trinity".
I too hope there is no "God" of your sort, but not for my sake, for yours. Men and Women, of the heroic sort, died choking on their own blood so the state could keep your religion at arm's reach, and I for one am thankful they did.
Afterall, if us atheists are all just a bunch of liars and brigands why should we be allowed to be viewed as human? Thank goodness we had the American Revolution, because we are allowed the freedom to believe or disbelieve, and there is not a damned thing you can do to stop us from thinking as we see fit and from pushing for political change too. If it were not for that one little Revolution we might well have ended up with the kind of theocracies that the Puritans setup before we escaped the grip of English law.
I don't love you, I downright hate you, and I will make no bones about it, until you give me a reason to love people such as yourself. Also, as far as I am concerned a mandate from your "Jesus" to love everyone isn't any more valid than a mandate from "Allah" or a mandate from "Elohim", "YHWH", or Zeus. It isn't anymore valid because you veil your hatred with love and call it virtue, the particular form of X-tianity you practice mainly sanctifies your human weakness and gives you a self righteous license to try and use people and then you try to come off acting smug and coy once your done at your attempt.
I know Christians, three of whom saved my life, and they would never resort to the tactics you used here under any conditions.
"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
- "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
A Christian is an expression of Love and Peace, empowered to show forth His Glory and Power!
I cherish these virtues! They are far beyond Religion. What of you?
I cherish those virtues also.
I would say that a christian should be an expression of love and peace. Unfortunately, that is often untrue.
What a pity you cannot display them......
Oh well, hubris and hypocrisy will have to suffice.
You see a Christian here is not the one who goes to church always and claims to be one but have not accepted the lordship of Jesus in his/her heart not just the lips. A Christian I mean, is one with a regenerated human spirit. One who is dead to self and religion, showing and acting LOVE to everyone including non Christians. Outside these are pure religion and hypocrisy. One who is the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus not your own deeds and wisdom.
A Christian is someone who has:
1. a belief in one God,
2. that Jesus is His divine Son, and
3. that Jesus died and rose from the dead for our sins.
I wonder why God didnt love Jesus more than us and gave him the punishment for our sins and exonerated us.What if its concluded that Jesus was not as close to God as we are.But its also not true.
Jesus is God's word and Himself that became flesh among men on earth for one singular ultimate purpose. Human Blood Sacrifice is the greatest and ultimate sacrifice! It was the ultimate purpose of God to have the human blood of Jesus Christ scarificed for the remission of human sins which the blood of bulls and pigeons as in the days of old couldn't ractify.
God is a master strategist! Glory to God!
According to your explanation, god is a moron.
You are very welcome Mark.
That person was merely attempting to project his/her's psychological problems onto you, I have seen it before and don't put up with it.
Hopefully they won't be "Christian" and come back for a second round, hopefully they will be "Christian" and freaking apologize.
Doubtful though, after-all who cares right? Guys like you and me will burn anyway, or so it's said...
In present days everyone talks about love and peace.I dont know what they actually mean.Just a big fraud.
The LOVE of Christ which comes right from the regenerated human spirit/heart not the play of Religion and it's politics.
sometimes we do similar things for different intentions.
I hope I will seek the good intention deeply before I talk or act.
when I do something derived by bad purposes which looks good for some people I want to admit I was wrong to myself.
God doesn't love Jesus less than us. Jesus volunteered to die for our sins. YOURS yes yours! and mine! For 1 reason: because He loves us THAT much and He doesn't want to see us go to hell. It hurts me to see someone even ellude that God is a moron. I know you didn't just call Him that, but you said it in a very lighthearted way. To think someone can kid about someone who loves you enough to die for you is so sad.
Oh God,mercy you couldn't spare your own prophet,how i believe you will fulfill your promise made to Jesus and us.Someone is talking about strategy.Whats the strategy there.Atleast i cannt see He could say ''Jesus! your followers will get salvation,there is no need of your crucifixion.But pity God didn't.
But ive read something else from a book thats without any confusions.And whynt i believe it.
[The Jews] slew him not, nor crucified him, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified, and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it: they have no definite knowledge thereof, but only follow a conjecture; and they did not convert this: conjecture into a certainty; on the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself (The Holy Quran 4: 158)
I didn't allude to it. I came straight out and said it.
I will say it again if you like. According to this description of events, god is a moron:
Pigeons just weren't cutting it..........
Mr. Knowles you are definately in my prayers. That one day you will truely understand.
'Human Blood Sacrifice is the greatest and ultimate sacrifice'
I thought this was called Satanism, or maybe associated with Dracula. God knows the damnation if pagans did it.
Only Christians still practice ritual cannibalism - Catholics and High Anglicans.
If you believe in transubstantiation, you are a cannibal.
Transubstantiation is a mystical concept, not a literal concept. IT is the faith/vision that the substance of matter can alchemically be changed into something holy spiritual...the pure essence of God/Source transmitted through a physical substance (the communion wafer and wine/juice) to nourish and raise/increase the vibration of the matter substance of the physical body. Once the soul chooses by free will to have the love and faith, there are no bounds to the Mind of Christ to change the mind of carnality.
It is not a man's science concept, but a spiritual science concept. It is the true sense of what alchemy is, not what the human carnal conscious conceives of.
Satanism is a carnal manipulation in thought, word and deed, of the Source. Animal sacrifice was a perversion (a literal conception) of the concept of giving one's human self, body, mind and soul to God to change to something more holy. Cannibalism has nothing to do with transubstantiation.
i.e. Jesus healed the eyes of whoever it was according to scripture, with the clay and his spittle mix...both of which were "charged" with the Light of God/Source. The mix of the physical substance with the alchemical conscience of the Christ, created a medium for change in the physical body and human mind of the healed person.
The whole purpose of life on earth is to choose by free will to "understand/accept" the love and peace that creates the possibility of changing our matter substance of self, body, mind and soul, into the faster vibrating substance of God/Light. IT is a gradual process, a bit at a time, or sometimes big "chunks" at a time.
Sparkling Jewel, you have a wonderful positive spirit, and this is a very sweet take on the whole issue of blood sacrifice.
However, I have to say that you are historically incorrect in your claim that transubstantiation is not supposed to be literal.
Wars have been fought and thousands of people have DIED fighting to defend their belief that the Host is literally transubstantiated into the flesh of Jesus Christ during the communion ritual. It is still the official position of the Catholic Church today.
Abraham practiced animal sacrifice - Leviticus contains full instructions for the slaughter and burning of animal sacrifices. In fact, the substitution of a lamb for Isaac in the Bible story has been interpreted by Biblical scholars as the record of the historical point at which the Semitic tribes stopped practicing human sacrifice, and switched to animal sacrifice instead.
Humanity has moved on from actual blood sacrifice spiritually and psychologically in most parts of the world, but the ritual reminders remain.
and the point is...the definition of transubstantiation is historically incorrect, just as alchemy is defined incorrectly.
It is a state of consciousness that is not properly defined because it is not humanly definable, let alone human scientifically definable.
I say again...."Transubstantiation is a mystical concept, not a literal concept. IT is the faith/vision that the substance of matter can alchemically be changed into something holy spiritual...the pure essence of God/Source transmitted through a physical substance (the communion wafer and wine/juice) to nourish and raise/increase the vibration of the matter substance of the physical body. Once the soul chooses by free will to have the love and faith, there are no bounds to the Mind of Christ to change the mind of carnality."
I believe in and receive communion as a transmittance of the Light of God that Jesus embodied. In taking communion one's consciousness and physical form changes a bit at a time or more, to become more Christ like.
I hold less belief in human defined belief and facts than you do. The interpretations of history cannot possibly say/define it all because they are only human words and writings...its the Spirit behind them that matters and the Spirit (ultimate pure Light of God) in everyone is sometimes interspersed with spirit (uses of Spirit that are not pure), which is not Spirit.
The question that was asked is "Who is a Christian?"
It's amazing how just that question starts an all out attack these days.
The question drew my interest figuring it would be a nice discussion, not expecting to have to defend my Christian faith.
I will use the scriptures for defense because that is what we believe. If you don't like that then too bad, I don't like what some of you people are saying about my Christian faith either.
Jenny you can call transubstantiation cannibalism if you like but it is the most important part of our faith.
Now I will explain why with the scriptures.
John, chapter 6
51: I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52: The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Then also from John, chapter 6
66: From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
These verses are from the King James Bible. I believe that it is just coincidental that the chapter and verse that says "and walked no more with him" is 6:66. At least I think.
May the Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you
Topstuff do you realize that the Islamic religion was started about 600 years after the birth of Christianity?
I have no doubt at all.
From Luke, chapter 23
20: Pilate therefore, willing to release Jesus, spake again to them.
21: But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.
Or from John, chapter 19
6: When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.
7: The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
Or finally from Matthew 27
50: Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51: And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52: And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53: And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54: Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
Again these verses are from the King James Bible but a Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible says the same, drbo.org/book/47.htm
I do like the similarities between Islam and Christianity though.
Not a lot of people realize that Moslems believe that in the end days Jesus will return to make everything perfect by deposing the anti-christ or dajjal as they call it. And Moslems believe in Jesus's virgin birth by Mary. And they hold great reverence for Mary, you know something that even a lot of Christians do not. I think the similarities between Islam and Christianity are cool.
You are dead on, which is my anti-islamic bigotry makes no freaking sense from a theological perspective.
Muslims do believe in the Immaculate Conception, I know this.
I am not religious, but I used to be a member in a fully blown cult which my parents dragged me and my siblings into at the time (15 years old).
Make money:Its true muslims(may i correct you; not moslems) revere all the true messengers of God as its the part of our faith.I feel christians may find more about Jesus in the Quran but they are not ready to accept it saying its the book compiled by Mohammed(PBUH).Bible is the book who smoothes the way to islam in reality predicting about Muhammed(PBUH).
I'm sorry topstuff, I'll have to remember that it is spelled Muslim not Moslem. I would be interested in reading those quotes as well.
No offense SparklingJewel but as a Catholic I do believe that transubstantiation is literally the changing of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ when consecrated during the Holy Mass.
There have been some documented miracles where priests or lay people have actually seen blood running from the Host after it has been consecrated. But obviously that is a matter of belief.
Actually even if you look the word transubstantiation up in a dictionary you will probably find two definitions. One being the meaning the Catholic Church gives it plus this definition, which are basically the same, "an act that changes the form or character or substance of something". This is the online dictionary that I used, rhymezone.com.
Yes, and in my own way I am saying the same. I believe that whatever substances that are blessed (the wafer and juice, etc..) in the name of the Christ, is charged with the Energy of God (Light) as the Christ. And that as we partake of it, we are being given an increment of that Energy of the Christ...we can become more of the Christ as we do His Word and Work.
The Word is the body and the work is the blood...the Spirit of the Christ "charges" the Word and the Work.
I get you SparklingJewel.
I have never read where Transubstantiation is explained in this way "The Word is the body and the work is the blood...the Spirit of the Christ "charges" the Word and the Work." I like that. Very nice.
No argument Mohammed. I think we are starting to have a friendly constructive dialog.
I understand exactly what you are saying my friend and I can not disagree with anything you have said. Especially when you say "people can't understand everything". I am not exactly sure where it is in the Bible right now but there is one verse that says if everything was written about God it would be volumes until the end days, or something along that line. So as children of God we have got a lot to learn. Hopefully together in a peaceful dialog like we are having here.
I just quote some scriptures from the Bible and the Quran.But when it comes to Bible predicting about Muhammad(PBUH) the problem is different transations of words like parakletos or periklytos?.
Quran telling about Muhammad's(PBUH) mention in Torah & Bible
1)"Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in the Taurat and the Injil..." (Al A'raf 7:157)
Al Saff 61:6
2)"...Jesus, the son of Mary said: 'O children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Taurat (which came) before me and giving glad tidings of an apostle to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad' " (Al Saff 61:6)
(HOLY QURAN – 9:30 – 31) They say: Allah hath begotten a son ! Glory be to Him ! He is self-sufficient ! His are all things in the heaven and on the earth. No warrant have ye for this. Say ye about Allah what ye know not !
Bible telling about Muhammed(PBUH)
The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; according to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (Deuteronomy 18:15-19)
If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. (John 14:15-18)
These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:25-26)
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: and ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. (John 15:26-27)
OK. so now please explain how each quote is describing Muhammad.
Read yourself the arguments made by muslim & christian scholars yourself for and against this and you may come to any conclusion.I cannt add to their explanation.Its accepted as well as denied.
Topstuff I believe you are referring to the Paraclete which is the Holy Ghost, one part of the Holy Trinity.
Deuteronomy 18:15 speaks of the Prophet being of thy brethren meaning of the tribe of Judah which Jesus was through Mary. Joseph was from the tribe of Judah too. The book of Deuteronomy is mostly about Moses who died around 1400 years before the first coming of Jesus Christ. Topstuff you may think because this verse uses the word prophet it is referring to Muhammad. But in reality the Old Testament refers to Jesus many ways and many times without calling Him by name. For instance even in the first book of the Bible, Genesis chapter 1 it gives reference to Jesus in the first part of verse 26, "And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness:". Notice how God uses the plural "us".
Oh man I find it very interesting that you mention John chapter 14. Before I talk about John 14:15-18 I want to go back to John 14:8-10.
John 14:8 Philip saith to him: Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, show us the Father? 10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works.
So there we see two parts of the Trinity, the Father and the Son.
Topstuff you quoted John 14:15-18 from the King James Bible. Now I want to quote John 14:16 from the Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible.
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever.
Note how the King James Bible uses the word Comforter meaning the Holy Ghost while the Douay-Rheims Bible uses the word Paraclete also meaning the Holy Ghost, they both mean the same.
So there we see the three parts of the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost all within 9 verses of John chapter 14 from verse 8 to 16.
At the Holy Mass we receive the Grace of the Holy Ghost or the Comforter or the Paraclete when we receive Holy Communion.
I don't have to elaborate on John 14:25-26 because I have already mentioned that the Holy Ghost or the Comforter or the Paraclete is the third part of the Holy Trinity. Again in John 14:26 the King James Bible uses the word Comforter meaning the Holy Ghost while the Douay-Rheims Bible uses the word Paraclete also meaning the Holy Ghost.
And again in John 15:26-27 the Comforter and the Spirit both mean the Holy Ghost. In John 15:26-27 the Douay-Rheims Bible again uses the word Paraclete instead of the Comforter.
Christians still believe in just one God. St. Patrick described the Trinity, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost by comparing it to a three leaf clover. The three leaves being part of the same plant.
Topstuff also note Prophet in Deuteronomy is spelled with a capital P. Most of the times in the Bible when it is referring to God a capital letter is used. The same holds true in the other verses that you mention for LORD, God, Father, Comforter, Spirit, Holy Ghost or in other verses Paraclete, the Word or even Grace, Holy Communion, or Eucharist and a few more. The Holy Ghost may also be referred to as the Holy Spirit.
Here's some other verses that prove the Divinity of Jesus, the first two being in His own words.
Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered to me by my Father. And no one knoweth the Son, but the Father: neither doth any one know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom it shall please the Son to reveal him.
Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me by my Father; and no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and to whom the Son will reveal him.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
These verses above are from the Douay-Rheims Bible, drbo.org/ but a King James Bible says the same, etext.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html
Peace be with you my friend
sorry to be in the middle of this argument
I just want to understand this issue farther
so , God is one.
God was described as three leaves fom a plant, then he is one but consists of three parts.
I am Mohammed, I comprise of many parts(legs,hands and etc) but I still one individual and when somebody calls me, he just says 'Mohammed'.
he doesn't say'Mohammed's legs ,hands , head & extra'.
I mean that the three leaves are parts making one plant.
now, is each part of God has its characteristics?
the only thing we may argue here is that God is different from his creatures and he is three parts but we don't know how.
but didn't God say that he created us like his shape?
also, I would say I could just pray for God because he is one and I don't to want to call his parts.
I am sorry if I make you confused.
people can't understand everything.
Do you have any sites that you recommend ?
Mike & all others
You say Muhammed(PBUH)is not mentioned in the Bible?
Thanks for the wishes Mike.To have the right knowledge is necessary for us all especially when its a matter of belief.How good i,you or anyone else here can argue is not the aim.We all need guidance for the betterment of our lives.Now coming to the point if the Bible does say something about Muhammed Or not.
I'll try to explain this as i've the explanation in my mind given by someone else in this regard.I hope it will not confuse any of the reader.
Okay for a moment lets suppose Bible says nothing about Muhammed(PBUH).As its claimed Biblical prophecies talk about the matters like Soviet union and many things else.
Why Bible has nothing to say about a messenger whose followers revere Jesus and Marry,believe in the miraculous birth of Jesus,believe him Messiah,believe that he healed born blind people and gave life to the dead by Gods permission.Muslims have accepted the Jesus on the authority of Muhummed alone without having the Christians to convince us.
Surely,the Bible must have something to say about that man who spoke so well of Jesus.
There are hundreds or even more prophecies in the Old testament about Jesus.Is there a single Prophecy where it says that the name of the Messiah will be JESUS, and that his mother's name will be MARY, that his supposed father will be JOSEPH THE CARPENTER; that he will be born in the reign of HEROD THE KING, etc. etc.? There are no su ch details! Then how can you conclude that those 'thousand' Prophecies refer to Jesus (Peace be upon him)?"
But you believe in its right to conclude this even Jesus is not mentioned by the real name.
Then why its wrong to conclude from this verse in the old testament about the prediction of Muhammed(PBUH) even he isn't mentioned by name.Its here
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,
like unto thee,and I will put my words in his mouth;
and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deut.18:18
According to your interpretations this prophecy referes to Jesus.Why Jesus?His name is not mentioned here.
You see the most important words of this prophecy are 'SOOS JY IS' (like unto thee), - LIKE YOU - like Moses.
So Christians think Jesus is like Moses on the criteria that Moses was a JEW and Jesus was also a JEW; secondly, Moses was a PROPHET and Jesus was also a PROPHET - therefore Jesus is like Moses and that is exactly what God had foretold Moses - "SOOS JY IS".
criteria could fit any one of the following Biblica l personages after Moses:- Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist etc., because they were also ALL Jews as well as Prophets. Why should we not apply this prophency to any one of these prophets, and why only to Jesus? Why should we make fish of one and fowl of another?"
Jesus is most unlike Moses and if I am wrong I would like you to correct me."
1Accodrding to you-JESUS IS A GOD, but Moses is not God. Is this true?"if Yes then Jesus is not like Moses.
2)According to you - JESUS DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD, but Moses did not have to die for the sins of the world. Is this true?" If Yes then Jesus is not like Moses.
3)According to you - 'JESUS WENT TO HELL FOR THREE DAYS', but Moses did not have to go there.If so then Jesus isn't like Moses.
How Muhammed(PBUH) is like Moses & not like Jesus
4)Moses had a father and a mother. Muhummed also had a father and a mother. But Jesus had only a mother, and no human father.
5)Moses and Muhummed were born in the normal, natural course, i.e. the physical association of man and woman; but Jesus was created by a special miracle.
6)Moses and Muhummed married and begat children, but Jesus remained a bachelor all his life.
7)Both Moses and Muhummed died natural deaths, but according to Christianity, Jesus was violently killed on the cross.
There are many other similarities but i wind up here and lets see the other part of verse.
"I WILL RAISE THEM UP A PROPHET FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN LIKE UNTO THEE......." The emphasis is on the words- "From among their brethren." Moses and his people, the Jews, are here addressed as a racial entity, and as such their 'brethren' would undoubtedly be the arabs. You see, the Holy Bible s peaks of Abraham as the "Friend of God". Abraham had two wives - Sarah and Hagar. Hagar bore Abraham a son - HIS FIRST-BORN- '......And Abraham(11) called HIS SON'S name, which Hagar bare Ishmael.' (Genesis 16:15). 'And Abraham took Ishmael HIS SON......" (Genesis 17:23). 'And Ishmael HIS SON was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.'(Genesis 17:25). Up to the age of THIRTEEN Ishmael was the ONLY son and sed of Abraham, when the covenant was ratified between God and Abraham. God grants Abraham another son through Sarah, named Isaac, wh o was very much the junior to his brother Ishmael.
Words in the Mouth
"The prophecy proceeds further:'.......AND I WILL PUT MY WORDS INTO HIS MOUTH.
Muhummed was forty years of age. He was in a cave some three miles north of the City of Mecca. It was the 27th night of the Muslim month of Ramadaan. In the cave the Archangel Gabriel commands him in his mother tongue:'IQRA' which means READ! or PROCLAIM! or RECITE! Muhummed w as terrified and in his bewilderment replied that he was not NOT LEARNED! The angel commands him a second time with the same result. For the third time the angel continues.
Now Muhummed, grasps, that what was required of him was to repeat! to rehearse! And he repeats the words as they were put into his mouth:
"READ! IN THE NAME OF THE LORD AND CHERISHER, WHO CREATED-
CREATED MAN, FROM A (MERE) CLOT OF CONGEALED BLOOD:
READ! AND THY LORD IS MOST BOUNTIFUL,-
HE WHO TAUGHT (THE USE OF) THE PEN,
TAUGHT MAN THAT WHICH HE KNEW NOT".
(Holy Qur'an 96:1-5)
There are some other evidences too but first write up if you have any objections to whats discussed above.
By all accounts please continue with your evidences, Topstuff. Everyone has their opinion and perspective of things. Thank you.
Topstuff like SparklingJewel and yourself I would also like to say that argument is not my intent.
Regarding this part in Deut.18:18 "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee", as I have previously mentioned Deuteronomy was in the time of Moses. After that came the other prophets as you have mentioned. A few of these prophets have written that Jesus will come from the house of David which is also from the tribe of Judah, you know "from among their brethren, like unto" Moses.
These are some of the verses from the Douay-Rheims Bible that show this, Psalms 88:4-5 (KJB Psalms 89:3-4), Psalms 131:11 (KJB Psalms 132:11), Isaias 9:6-7, Isaias 11:1-5 and Jeremias 23:5 from the Old Testament. And from the New Testament Matthew 1:1, Matthew 1:6, Matthew 22:44, Mark 12:36, Luke 1:69-70, Luke 2:4-7, Luke 20:42-44, John 7:42 and Revelation 22:16. I'll just post a couple. You can see the rest if you want, drbo.org/
Isaias 9:6 For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace. 7 His empire shall be multiplied, and there shall be no end of peace: he shall sit upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom; to establish it and strengthen it with judgment and with justice, from henceforth and for ever: the zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
John 7:42 Doth not the scripture say: That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and from Bethlehem the town where David was?
It's hard to prove from the scriptures that Mary was of the house of David. I believe it is just assumed because of what transpired. But Joseph, the earthly father of Jesus was from the line of David.
Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
As far as Muhammed not being mentioned in the Bible I can not speculate on that. You do make some good points though. We are seeing our similarities. But I am definitely no theologian, in fact I struggled to find everything above.
One consolation though is that there seems to be an open dialog between the Church and some Islamic leaders. Pope Benedict kind of outraged some Muslims before he went to Turkey but I do not think that was his intentions, I believe he has referring to leaders of any religion or country. Yasser Arafat and Pope John Paul met and both agreed that Jerusalem should be an international city, like it was suppose to be in the United Nations agreement. Pope John Paul also said that God will punish the perpetrators of the war in Iraq. Palestinian Muslim, Christian and Jewish groups are coming together to speak out against the occupied territories and the atrocities committed. They want to live in peace together there like they used to before the birth of zionism, just over 100 years ago. Former members of the IDF are speaking out against the atrocities they witnessed while in the army. Jewish grandmothers are monitoring check points in Palestine to try to prevent atrocities committed by over jealous members of the Israeli Defense Force against Palestinians (just unbelievable). Some members of the IDF are refusing duty in the occupied territories. Most people are starting to realize that Palestinians are Semites too. Some people are starting to realize that not all Jews support zionism, for anyone reading this just do a Google search for 'Jews against zionism'. And now Condoleezza Rice just stated the pull out of US troops in Iraq should come much sooner than expected, although I think they are saying that now just because of the popularity of Barack Obama.
These all seem to be glimmers of Hope and Peace. Note the capital letters Topstuff. :-)
By far there was nothing like of my personal opinion in all that.As for as the perspecive is concerned i explained the perspective of both christians and muslims.If anyone could explain it more id like to read myself.
To prove my point , to win or not to lose an argument is not my objective at all.Thanks S.Jewel
Argument is not my intent either. I am genuinely interested in what Muslims believe. It is helpful to know what everyone believes, so that all people can find common ground to accomplish those things that are beneficial for everyone.
Sorry if it sounded like I wanted to argue. I haven't found anyone that believes farther from the mainstream of any particular religion than I do ! I seek the Truth that is in my heart for my personal reuniting with God. And do my best to not judge others in their search.
Thats great,to seek the truth is our purpose as no religion is anyones property,the difference is we have to find the true religion that could lead us to God infact.At this point ive no intention to call myself right and others wrong.And its only possible by knowing about other religions looking things being neutral without the inclination to our own religion
at that time.
So you asked me to mention the sites on this debate.answering-islam.org is a place where christian scholars answer the points raised by muslims and answering-christianity.org vice versa.How authentic their points are to prove their religions as true is up to readers to judge.
As listening is easy than reading so long details,better watch high quality video collection of Sheikh Ahmed Deedat's debates with christian scholars and his lectures.
TS, I was able to look through the outline of first link and looking forward to the reading. I will be moving this week so it may be a few weeks before I get back to you with any response.
But right off the bat, I want to respectfully say, that those of Islam that put together these links, have an agenda...that Islam is the One True religion. That, in its self, is an unobjective perspective and tends to self deceit, even group deceit...the human ego in charge instead of God. I believe that all religions have "pieces" to complete the One True understandings of God/Allah.
My beliefs up to this point in time, and leads to change as information is considered, is that I believe in reincarnation (but not like has been defined by most people). And I also know that there is great sway in interpretation of even what a person sees with his/her own eyes and hears with physical ears, let alone what they say with the words of their mouth and record in writing, as compared to another's interpretation. God/Allah/Spirit works in mysterious ways uniquely for each individual because we all need something different, because of the experiences of our many lives on this earth through the thousands of year !
I am confident that reading these links will fill in more "missing pieces" for me and I am grateful to you for passing them along.
Many Blessings to you,
I totally agree with that as you'll see in my next post.
Sorry for interrupting.
Objectivity always confuses me. does it have to be absolute? or we should at least adapot an attitude and be objective in our judgement ? or may be it depends on our experience as you say later.
this makes alot of arguments.
the important thing I think is a good intention and justice will.
*One objective way to look at religions from view is a story in Quran about Abraham whos life was mentioned in other religious books as well .
(we supposed he is the same person as he had very similar stories)
(And thus did We show Ibrahim the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and that he might be of those who are sure* So when the night over-shadowed him, he saw a star; said he: Is this my Lord? So when it set, he said: I do not love the setting ones*Then when he saw the moon rising, he said: Is this my Lord? So when it set, he said: If my Lord had not guided me I should certainly be of the erring people*Then when he saw the sun rising, he said: Is this my Lord? Is this the greatest? So when it set, he said: O my people! surely I am clear of what you set up (with Allah)*Surely I have turned myself, being upright, wholly to Him Who originated the heavens and the earth, and I am not of the polytheists*) Quran 6:75 (ShHAKIR translation)
Reference: University of South California
I wont explain the quran verses above but I will say what I & some people understand from it.
(If you are alone in an island. You would be thinking what to worship.And finally you say I will worship who creats everything.I don't see him but I will worship only him.Some body found you & took you the city.You found most popular religious books but never talked to anybody who could affect your judgement unpurposely.What is the most similar book to what you thought before reading any book or talking to anybody)
I like your way of thinking people.
I was woundring today while shopping.
What put all ideas & thoughts in my mind in the first place when I first have started to think?
Some more evidences in Bible about Muhammad(PBUH).But the matter is you have to ask yourself or the christian scholars why these scriptures are overlooked.Are they not part of Bible?No,they are.
Muhummed is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomn 5:16. The Hebrew word used there is Muhammuddim. The end letters IM is plural of respect majesty and grandeur. Minus "im" the name would be Muhamudd translated as "altogether lovely" in the Authorised Version of the Bible or 'The Praised One' 'the one worthy of Praise' i.e. MUHUMMED!
The word "Messiah" comes from the Arabic and Hebrew word masaha which means to rub, to massage, to annoint. The religious significance is "the one who is anointed' - priests and kings were anointed in consecration to their offices. Messiah translated Christ does not mean God. Even the heathen C yrus is called "Christ" in the Bible, (Isaiah 45:1)
What would you say about this?At the end i leave you to think on these lines,and if there is something good to tell me,please do share with me also.
Given that the Song of Solomon was written centuries before the founder of Islam was born, I doubt the Mohammed mentioned in SOS is the same guy. I have seen no mention of time travel among the miracles listed in either Holy book.
Mohammed is (and was) a reasonably common name. Something like "John". My guess is that there were hundreds of them about, and that some were reasonably well-respected for various reasons.
Islam was founded several centuries after the last book of the Christian Bible was allegedly written, and at least two hundred years after it probably was written.
The Muslims or Moslems do believe in Jesus being a Prophet ,God knows why they fight
If you don't know why they fight, you have not understood either book
God is One - I have understood both books-they both talk about the divine light- no difference at all.
Well I certainly can not find anything that looks even remotely similar to Muhummed in the Song of Solomon 5:16. Correct me if I am wrong.
KJB Song of Solomon, chapter 5-"16": His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.
http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/kjv2ww … of+solomon
No mater how history portrays Cyrus he was still a minor prophet of God. Note how both verses 4 and 5 end with "and thou hast not known me."
Jenny (Inspirepub) clearly makes a good valid point. You know Topstuff even if there was some obscure mention in the Bible, whether spelled exactly the same or a derivative that the imaginative mind could make it out to read Muhummed, what would make you think that it was talking about your prophet? You know what I mean, I'm sure your prophet Muhummed was not the first person on the face of the planet with the name of Muhummed.
Topstuff I am spending hours replying to your questions with the proper verses in the Bible. Yet you come back with this without even mentioning what I have written. I am starting to wonder whether this truly is a friendly dialog or not.
Topstuff in this video above you may think that Shabir Ally won this debate against Mike Licona concerning the question "Is Jesus God or Prophet?" But I am telling you sir that there is not even one Christian, no matter how little they know about the Bible that would agree that Shabir Ally won that debate. Not even one, if they are a real Christian.
In the video Shabir Ally claims that "there is nothing recorded in the Gospel that Jesus clearly affirmed His own Divinity." But that is completely false.
Mike Licona did not mention these verses in the video but I already have for you Topstuff in previous posts clearly showing that Jesus did affirmed His own Divinity in the Bible. One is from the Gospel of Matthew and another is from the Gospel of Luke.
Topstuff I am reading everything that you post. Are you not reading anything that I post? There should be at least two sides to a friendly debate.
In the video Shabir Ally also says "that the original followers of Jesus did not actually take Him to be God." But that is also completely false.
I will quote just one instance from the Bible where the original followers of Jesus did accept Jesus to be God. But there are many many more.
Matthew 16:15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
The above verses also proves that Jesus did affirmed His own Divinity. You know Jesus made Peter the leader of His church for after He was crucified and was resurrected because Peter recognized Jesus as God.
I have also mentioned that Jesus was with God from the beginning before the creation by posting Genesis 1:26 (with the plurals) and John 1:1. There is also proof that Jesus was with God from the beginning in the Old Testament Proverbs 8: 22-36. Anyone can find them in either the online Douay-Rheims Bible http://www.drbo.org/ or the online King James Bible http://etext.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html
In the video Shabir Ally calls Jesus schizophrenic which is, in my opinion playing with fire.
In the video Shabir Ally says that "no such thing as the Trinity exists."
But in a previous post I mentioned this,
So it seems to me that Shabir Ally is trying to baffle with bull crap.
Jesus Christ gave us a New Covenant. There are two tenants to that New Covenant. In my words they are to love God and to love thy neighbor as thy self. The commandments of God fall within those two tenants of the New Covenant. If all Christians followed this New Covenant we would not see the problems we are having. The original purpose of the crusades of years ago was to just secure a safe route to the Holy Land, that's it. Christians had a right then as they do today to visit the land where Our Saviour walked. Obviously there were some bad leaders during the crusades of years ago, on both sides. Real Christians of today do not believe that what is happening these days is another crusade.
Jews do not accept Jesus as the risen Christ (expect Messianic Jews) thus they do not accept the New Covenant. Because they do not accept the New Covenant and still go by an eye for an eye and revenge they will never live in peace in the middle east until the return of Jesus Christ.
Now we have heard that Islam is a religion of peace time and time again. But are they just words?
I have mentioned some of the inequities of the west. What I have not mentioned are some of the inequities of Islam, the very militant Wahabi sect stemmed out of Saudi Arabia being just one of them. You know I've read that a Christian can not practice their religion in Saudi Arabia. Also I don't know how true this is but I have even read that a Christian can not even where a Christian medal, cross or Crucifix in Saudi Arabia without the threat of punishment, at this time I am not sure how severe the punishment would be. Yet on the other hand Muslims are free to practice their Islamic religion in all of the western countries.
Now Topstuff, my friend it is your turn to prove here in front of the whole world that Islam is truly a religion of peace.
In the Political section of these Hubpages forums there is a character by the name of Prophecy Teacher that is posting some rather scary videos and a couple web sites about Islam. The title of the thread is 'Did Obama Fake His Birth Certificate'. Obviously Prophecy Teacher is a coock but the two videos and one of the web sites in question that he posted are on page 3, near that top of that thread. This is just one part of one post by Prophecy Teacher.
Now Topstuff if what Prophecy Teacher is saying is true then that is a clear major threat to our Christian way of life.
So Topstuff what I want you to do is go to that thread in the Political section, watch the two videos and look at the web site that Prophecy Teacher posted near the top of page 3 of that thread and address the issue by posting a reply in that thread.
This is your chance Topstuff to prove here in front of the whole world that Islam is truly a religion of peace.
Topstuff if you are not willing to address the issue in that thread then I will assume what Prophecy Teacher is saying is true.
Also Topstuff if you are not willing to address the issue in that thread then there is really no sense for me to continue with this "friendly dialog".
In the Song of Solomon, chapter 5 verse 16, we read in Hebrew: "Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."
So Christians claim that it does not refer to Muhammad because the whole chapter is about man-woman love story.This verse has importance as its one of the prohecies found in the Bible (both Jewish and Christian) about the coming of the final prophet.People who carfully examined these evidences were convinced by the truth of Islam.
Before expaling the context and meaning of the quoted verse, lets understand the subject of the Song of Solomon, and why it is considered a holy book inspired by God Almighty.
Here, I quote the learned view of a Christian Bible scholar on the Song of Solomon:
"This book has received more varied interpretations than perhaps any other book in the Bible. Some writers believe it presents the reader with the "greatest hermeneutical challenge in the Old Testament. One excellent exegete called it "the most obscure book in the Old Testament" (Franz Delitzsch: Biblical Commentary on the Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes, quoted by Dr Thomas L. Constable in his Notes on Song of Solomon)
SOS has much importance in Bible because its a love poem and Naturally, no one expects a love poem to be part of the Book revealed by God Almighty.
The Christian scholars quote the following verse from Paul's Second Epistle to Timothy as giving clear criteria for judging inspired scripture:
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16, KJV)
There need not be any controversy about the idea expressed above: Whatever is believed to have been revealed or inspired by God must serve one of the four purposes: Either (1) it must teach us doctrine; or (2) it must reprove us for our error; or (3) it offers us correction; or (4) it guides us into righteousness.
On examination, we can find the Song of Solomon failing to pass any of the above criteria. Because, from a religious point of view: (1) it does not teach any doctrine; nor does it mention even God; (2) it does not reprove us for any error on our part; (3) it does not offer us any sort of correction; and (4) it does not guide us into righteousness; rather it gives sensuous descriptions of physical intimacy in a frank language in a Book of God.
Indeed the difficulty of providing it a meaningful interpretation has caused some Christian readers to doubt its status as a part of scripture.
The Song is apparently sung by Solomon in admiration of one woman, and it depicts faithful love to that woman; but Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines (1 Kings 11:3). This fact alone should be enough to cast doubts on the claim that Solomon wrote the Song in admiration of his sweetheart — i.e. a single person — glorifying fidelity and sincerity in love.
The only possible apology for the inclusion of the Song in the Bible can come from the view that it is an allegory. A majority of interpreters favor this view.
To them, what the writer said was only a symbolic husk for a deeper spiritual meaning that the reader must discover. (Greg W. Parsons: "Guidelines for Understanding and Utilizing the Song of Songs," Bibliotheca Sacra 156:624 (October-December 1999):399-422; quoted by Dr Thomas L. Constable in his Notes on Song of Solomon)
Viewed from this angle, it would be wrong to take the Song of Solomon literally. Chiefly, because a love story for the sake of a love story does not have any place in scripture.
This means that the Christians have to take one of the two reasonable positions: Either they should consider the Song of Songs as non-canonical and reject it as possessing any scriptural value, or they should be prepared to accept it as an allegory, where language is used symbolically. And then the love story suddenly takes on new meanings which it did not possess before.
And remember, a symbol is "something used for or regarded as representing something else" (Dictionary.com).
Now, let us take a closer look at the verse quoted:
"His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem." (Song of Solomon 5:16)
The original Hebrew Bible has "Muhammadim" in the place of "altogether lovely", but the translators rendered it "altogether lovely". It should have been "the Praised One" — that is the correct meaning of "Muhammadim". At the same time, "Muhammadim" happens to contain the name of the final prophet in Arabic too. This is what Muslims are quick to point out.
They (with very few exceptions) do not study the context of the expression as found in the present Bible. The Christian contention is that the context does not warrant any one to claim that there is a clear reference here to the final prophet.
Now, after considering the whole of the Song of Solomon and the context of the verse, we can say that if we take the Song as an allegory, and the epithet, "Muhammadim" as a description of "the beloved", it is possible that the beloved is someone for whom a nation — or the world — was waiting (for instance). And as has been argued above, there is a strong case for that.
I want to underscore this point again. The Christian claim about the Song of Solomon, that it just tells a good love story, seems to contradict their defense of the Song as divinely inspired as the rest of the Bible.
It follows logically that either the Song of Solomon is not divinely inspired, or there is a possibility of "Muhammadim" being a reference to the Last Prophet Muhammad.
This is hysterical.
Christians might debate the theological meanings of SOS, but not because they suspect it refers to a man who wasn't even born for many centuries after it was written!
The Old Testament was all written before Christ.
Mohammed lived hundreds of years after Christ.
Therefore, nothing in the Old Testament has anything to do with Mohammed, period.
No "divinely inspired" hair-splitting required. Just a calendar.
Topstuff in a previous post I said "possibly" (being polite) and this,
But with closer inspection there is not a chance that a Christian theologian would even consider the possibility that the Song of Solomon refers to Muhammed.
The Douay-Rheims Bible includes explanations in red within the text. For the first four words in the first chapter of the Song of Solomon "Let him kiss me" this is the explanation for those four words.
"1 "Let him kiss me"... The church, the spouse of Christ, prays that he may love and have peace with her, which the spouse prefers to every thing delicious: and therefore expresses (ver. 2) that young maidens, that is the souls of the faithful, have loved thee."
As long as I can remember the Church has always been referred to as the spouse of Christ.
So the Church believes that the Song of Solomon, which is called Solomon's Canticle Of Canticles in the Douay-Rheims Bible is a love story, an allegory and also Divinely inspired.
Jenny is right when she says this.
Even though I did wrongfully entertain that notion.
For a nanosecond.
No, Christians claim it doesn't refer to Mohammed (if any of them even entertain the notion for a nanosecond) because he wasn't born until centuries after it was written.
Christians just struggle to deal with the obviously carnal nature of the wording in SOS, given how sex-negative Christianity is in general. And they spend hours justifying it as "symbolic" and "allegorical", because they desperately don't want anything in the Bible to be glorifying sexual love.
Topstuff would you please address the thread by Prophecy Teacher that I mention in my previous post. The reason why I ask is because I find it hard to believe what he is saying. Prophecy Teacher is clearly a war monger. I can't address an issue about Islam but you can.
Mike I know i missed your points about glimmers of Hope and Peace that made you a little upset and jumped to put one more evidence.Actually i thought the discussion mightn't go offtopic as i gave more importance to your point ''As far as Muhammed not being mentioned in the Bible I can not speculate on that".
I agree with you on many points like jews and zoinists are the two,¬ all jews support zionism andformer members of the IDF are speaking out against the atrocities they witnessed while in the army.But i have no knowledge if jewish grandmothers are monitoring checkpoints in Palestine to prevent atrocities of Israeli defense force against innocent palestinians or howfar it works.
Regarding to SOS i have put an answer in respose to jennys standpoinr.Now the point raised by you is, there could be anyother person with the name Muhammed before muslims prophet.I tell you Muhammed(PBUH) was the first person with this name on the planet earth.If its not true,could history tells us about anyother person with so many qualities as described in song of Soloman who came & passed away without being recognized..Is this prophecy not fulfilled by the coming of Muhammed to earth,if not then whoelse is there.Lets suppose what you say is true.Again when he came or still has he been awaited?
Coming to the video you know,if Shabir Ally missed some verses intentionally,unintentionally or whatever it was Mike Licona responsibility to point out that.As ive read those posts so responsibility comes to me now.Addressing this part we have to first ask ourselves,is Bible safe in its in its original context?
The last part of your post was"
''Now Topstuff, my friend it is your turn to prove here in front of the whole world that Islam is truly a religion of peace."
And also to answer what prophecy teacher has shown videos in another thread to prove my point.Oh God!what kind of condition is this.That man once gave a link to me to read a post entitled ''its the demography,stupid."There the writer talks about the genocide of muslims and uses inappropriate words against islam where another hubber asked him to stop his bigotry and many others also.Amazingly he assumed him/her as a muslim while that person answerd in the next post that he/she was a Buddhist instead but had read about Islam and other religions too.
I am not. Tried it once but it didn't take. Didn't like being somebody else.
Yeah Topstuff that's exactly why I think you need to address the post by Prophecy Teacher in the Political section. Regarding the possibility of Muhammed being referred to in the Songs of Solomon that is not up to me to decide, only a Christian theologian could address that. Mike Licona did used some other scriptures in the video to prove his point. And I am sure that every Christian that watched the video would agree that he did make his point. All I did was add some additional scriptures to bolster the points that Mike Licona made. Now that I have shown you the errors that Shabir Ally made by wrongfully referring to the Bible to try to prove his points maybe it should be up to you or other Muslims to show Shabir Ally and other Muslim leaders their errors.
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