Every Christian believes that their sins are forgiven by the blessed name and blood of Jesus on the Cross. The concept that Jesus (PBUH) died for the SINS of Mankind (Original Sin/Blood Atonement) runs contrary to not only rational thinking and common sense, but more importantly, to the teachings of Jesus Christ & also to the teachings of Bible itself.
Lets suppose that a person is found to be guilty for a crime such as murder, rape or child molestation. Any rational & normal person would no doubt want such an offender to pay for his crimes. Now imagine a court of law, who in spite of finding this man guilty of these crimes, decides that an innocent person should be made to pay for these crimes or that this or that person has already paid for crimes in blood for the convicted person. This is pure rubbish and non-sense. No court of law would ever free the guilty or the convicted and no court of law would ever punish some one else on his behalf.
Lets read and analyze the following Biblical verses:
"Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed." (Genesis 9:6)
According to this verse of the bible, the sin for murder is compensated through executing the murderer, means that a man who kills some one must be killed. Repentance on its own is not prescribed as a way of compensating for the sin of murder.
"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (Deuteronomy 24:16)
"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4)
"The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them." (Ezekiel 18:20)
"But the children of the murderers he put not to death; according to that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, as the Lord commanded, saying, 'The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall die for his own sin.'" (2 Kings 14:6)
"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. (2 Chronicles 7:14)
"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." (Isaiah 55:7)
"In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge." (Jer. 31:29-30)
"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:14-15)
"Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?" (Prov.20:9)
The way to cleanse oneself from sin to clean ONE's HEART and not to believe in crucifixion or Trinity lies.
I want all Christian friends opinion about the above Bible verses and wants to quote a verse from the Quran which is consistent with all the above quoted Bible verses.
"No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another." (Quran 6:164)
"That no laden one shall bear another's load, And that man hath only that for which be maketh effort, And that his effort will be seen, And afterward be will be repaid for it with fullest payment." (Quran 53:38-41)
You ask about original sin, but you do not seem to know what original sin is. Original sin is the sin that Adam and Eve committed when the disobeyed God and ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Every human born is a direct decendant of Adam and Eve. Every human born carries the sin of disobedience from birth until they are baptized or christened.
I know BUT whats this doctrine then: "Jesus died for the sins of mankind?"
Original sin, Baptism, Crucifixion are all interrelated doctrines.
And what you are saying is that every children is born in sin and if he/she doesnt baptize, he/she will not enter paradise as he/she is sinful?
Jesus did die for all of the sins of mankind this is true, but to be cleansed of your sins you must first believe and accept through faith, that if you (Confess) you are a sinner and have sinned, then (Repent) of your sins which would include making reparation for your sins and asking forgiveness from those you have sinned against, then you can ask Jesus for His forgiveness and acknowldege that through your faith you believe that Jesus died and was resurrected for your sins, You are instantly saved through your belief and faith. You should then become baptized, which will permit God's Holy Spirit to live within you and God will recognize you again as one of His beloved children and a joint heir with Jesus Christ.
So Mr. Dave, suppose if i murder your whole family including your small chidren and afterwards i repent and believe that Jesus died for my sins and he is the only savior. Will i be forgiven?
and if i ask you for forgiveness and you refused to forgive me even though i believed that Jesus is my only savior, then?
What atonement did you make for murdering my family and why did you not kill me too? Jesus tells me that as long as you have made satisfactory atonement, repenting for your actions, I should forgive you and I guess if you have atoned, I would. Forgiveness for your actions by Jesus, is between you and Him.
Suppose I enjoy the pleasures of your wife and your daughter, how would you respond?
what do you mean by satisfactory atonement?
If you steal something you must repay it. Original value and maybe some interest too This is atonement.
If you kill someone you must go to prison for this for a time dictated by the courts. This is atonement.
If you rape or injure another you must go to prison. This is atonement.
If you lie you must confess the lie and speak the truth. This is atonement.
Whatever law of man or God you break, you must admit it anf face the penalty. This is atonement.
BUT only go to prison for a specified period of time for murdering or raping people? This contradicts the above bible verses itself.
Then whats the significane of Jesus crucifixion and that Jesus died for our sins?
Means that Jesus didn't die for anyone's sin and that we are accountable for our actions.
Just out of curiosity, was Adam the monkey or was Eve? DNA has proven the link and I was curious if this monkey business went on before or after the garden of eden?
I understand the need for faith but not the ability to ignore physical proof that it seems to entail these days. DNA, Fossils and Carbon Dating are ignored in favor of the writings of 2000 year old civilizations. These people knew for a fact that the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around it. It doesn't matter how many of these beliefs are proven wrong, millions continue to ignore the truth.
Many have found a way to combine their beliefs with the reality of scientific discovery. I can understand looking for a message in what you read but using the bible as an irrefutable historical reference is rediculous.
There have been numerous examples of mistakes in each translation and yet millions defend the version they prefer as being100% fact based. Why does admitting that a single word may have changed meanings 4 or 5 times since this book was written, cause a lot of you to assume your entire belief system is at fault ?
Each person who knows in their heart that the bible should be taken literally ignores the passages they feel are out dated or just dont apply to them. Homosexuality is an abomination that must not be ignored, so say the masses who dine in their local Red Lobster wearing clothes made from a blend of fabrics. These two actions are described as abominations in the eyes of your lord and many choose to ignore them. Do you believe they don't to apply to you?
I would really appreciate finding out how some Christians have come to the conclusion that rules they disagree with don't apply to them? Having made a blanket decision for the entire human race they then proceed to persecute another group of christians who don't believe homosexuality is an abomination, from their table at Red Lobster? You choose to commit acts that are listed as being abominations in the eyes of their lord, based upon who knows what, while continuing to feel other must obey the ones they have chosen to believe in. Do as I say and not as I do is alive and well with Christians these days,IMO.
Peace everyone, hope today's a good one.
How so if the original sin is pointing to duality. The knowledge of good and evil. Jesus simply demonstrated how to arise above duality. The passages you point to for the most part point to reaping what you sow. If you sow good or bad, you and only you reap the consequences.
Who cares honestly, why argue or even debate semantics? What is illogical is the amount of adults in this world who squabble over ancient texts. Who cares about the details isn't the message the important part? Seems like you're just beating a dead horse with this.
Ahmad Usman quoted this scripture ...
"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
(2 Chronicles 7:14) "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."
= - = - = - = -
I have thought about this a number of times.
Forgiveness of sins has always been available; And Jesus reaffirmed it.
I am wondering why Ahmad makes bold statements to others about "they didn't post verses before and after" in dealing with the Qu'ran...yet he doesn't do the same for the Bible.. he posts verses that are taken out of context and doesn't seem to post any verses before or after! Nonsense! Therefore I refuse to even debate this question!
Original sin, sin.... Sin is sin.
OP - Yes, all your verses are in relative context, as in they all relate to the topic. However you have only looked at the old testament you need to marry that up to the new testament where Jesus makes note of those and offers a new way of thinking on them.
Also something that you don't seem to have grasped is that in the old testament each week the Jews made blood sacrifices for their sins and dove offerings and numerous other offerings for attonement of sin. Jesus is the last sacrifice.
Romans 10:9 .... is that way to Salvation -- and not that we are now sinless -- but that God doesn't see our sin he sees Jesus.
Sorry missed the matthew one... but that is taken out of context.
Well, whether its OT or NT, its all part of the Bible. Old Testament is a vital part of the Christian faith. It was concerning the Old Testament laws and the Old Testament Prophets that Jesus said plainly that he came not to destroy the Law or the Prophets but rather to fulfill.
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Mathew 5:17-19)
To my understanding "Original Sin" is a Catholic doctrine is it not?
While I am not fully versed in what exactly "original sin" constitutes, the Bible does explain that because Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they were condemned to death. Not a physical death for all living things must die but a type of spiritual death:
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death spread to all men, because all sinned- (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." Romans 5: 12-14
This is why Christ came and why we humans need Christ to enter into the Kingdom. Without Christ we cannot inherit eternal life. "Jesus answered, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:5&6)
What Adam and Eve did in the garden of eden is condemn us to death because of their sin. From what I understand, the Catholic church (and possibly other churches I'm not aware of) teaches that we enter the world already sinners? That's not entirely correct, in that we are born with a death sentence on our heads, but we are not "sinners" because we have not yet broken God's laws.
This leads to all kinds of debates, such as, do new borns who die automatically enter the kingdom? I'm not 100% sure how that works, because they are not baptized so you woudl think they would not get into the kingdom. However, elsewhere in the NT Chrit says, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it." (Mark 10:14&15).
Back to my original argument, I don't see anywhere in Scripture where Christ dying for the sins of mankind contradicts His teachings...
I could list Scripture after Scripture from the OT and on about why Christ had to come to lift the death sentence from mankind so that we could be free to partake of the tree of life, so to speak.
You are right in saying that only blood can remove sin. This is why sacrifice was performed in the OT as an example of what was to come when Christ shed his blood as the final sacrifice. Because Christ paid the ultimate price and was the ultimate sacrifice, the further shedding of blood is not necessary, only sacrifices of the heart. Also, it wasn't merely the physical act of sacrifice that God looked at to forgive one of their sins, but the attitude of the person, what was in their heart. This is why God was pleased with Abel's sacrifice and not with Cain's, among other reasons.
Christ did not abolish the law, he fulfilled it by his death. His sacrifice was the one and only way that the death sentence on our heads could be anulled and deemed to be void. No other sacrifice could meet the terms of the contract.
So our praying and asking forgiveness does not contradict anything in Scrupture because that is all God requires of us, and it is nothing new compared to what he asked of us a long time ago in the OT. God requires humilty and heartfelt reptentace, not merely outward acts of holiness or ceremony. God looks on the heart now just as he always has:
"For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken spirit and a contrite heart- These, O God, You will not despise." (Psalm 51:16-17).
To conclude, I go back to Romans chapter 5 which talks about the death sentence Adam placed on all of us:
"Therefore, as through one man's offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous." (Romans 5: 18-19)
I should clrify something in my above post...
It would appear that having the death sentence passed down to all of us by Adam is the same as being born a sinner in a sense, because we require Christ to enter the Kingdom. As Paul writes in Romans where I quoted, we "were made sinners."
We don't need Christ to enter into heaven. We dont have to believe that he died for our sins. We dont have to believe that salvation is through Jesus. What we have to believe and obey is the Commandments of Jesus (PBUH).
"And behold, one came and said unto him, ‘Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?’
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Mathew 19:16-17)
Jesus (PBUH) did not say that to have the eternal life of paradise, people should believe in him as Almighty God or worship him as God, or believe that Jesus (PBUH) would die for his sins. On the contrary he said that the path to salvation was through keeping the commandments.
One of the scribes once asked Jesus (PBUH) as to which was the first commandment of all, to which Jesus (PBUH) merely repeated what Moses (PBUH) had said earlier:
Hebrew: "Shama Israelu Adonai Ila Hayno Adonai Ikhad."
English: "Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord."
(Mark 12:29) (Deuteronomy 6:4)
Regarding infant Baptism, if your point is that Children are sinless as you quoted this verse:
"Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it." (Mark 10:14&15).
Then i appreciate your point and i believe this is what really Jesus (PBUH) said not what Paul fabricated lies againt him and included in the Bible. This is what i also believe acording to my religion BUT the problem is that most of the Christians do believe that Children are being born in sin and unless they are Baptized, they can't enter the kingdom of God.
St. Thomas Aquinas writes:
“But this sacrifice of Jesus is only for that person who has faith in Jesus, and who acts on his teachings. The sign of such faith is the fulfillment of the ritual baptism. The undergoing of baptism signifies faith in the redemption of Jesus on the part of the baptized. Hence, being baptized through Jesus is deemed to take the place of his death and second life. Consequently, whoever undergoes baptism will have his original sin forgiven, and he will be given a new free will. On the other hand, that person who does not undergo baptism, his original sin remains with the result that he becomes entitled to perpetual sin. But original sin incurs everlasting punishment; since children who have died in original sin, because they have not been baptized, will never see the Kingdom of God.” (Aquinas, Vol.1,p 714)
Martin Luther, who was the father of the Protestant Reformation writes:
“Only believe and you will be redeemed. There is no necessity to bear the hardships of good acts like fasting, abstinence from sins and humility of confession, be sure that without them and only for your true faith in Christ, you shall certainly get salvation of Christ. No matter if you get involved in fornication and murder a thousand times a day, you are destined to reach salvation only for your true belief. I repeat, only your belief will get you redeemed.”
I also want to quote a few verses from the Bible:
(King David saying) "Surely I was sinful at birth, and in sin my mother conceived me." (Psalm 51:5)
"The wicked as estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies." (Psalm 58:3)
"Man that is born of woman is full of trouble and unclean....Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." (Job 14:1-4)
"Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be damned." (Mark 16:16)
No person can hold Adam and Eve accountable for the sins which they commit, and it is an abomination to believe that a child would end up in hell for not being baptized should it die before it can reach an age of accountability.
I lived in a muslim country for more than 6 years in the 80s. I understand Islam but Islam did not grow in isolation where the Bible was not known. Muhammad's wife Khadijah cousin Waraqah ibn Nawfal was reported to be a christian as was a Coptic slave concubine girl who bore him a son Ibrihim that died in infancy. So Muhammad knew about christianity even if he refused to accept it. Another fact. The Bible is more than six hundred years older than the Koran, so why would God take His revealed Word (Bible) to man and suddenly replace it with another "book"?
Last year on TV I watched a Muslim Imam boast that Islam would never recieve humility. My heart went out to him and all who follow him because he does not understand what Biblical Humility is. Humility is not weakness but strength based on Faith in God.
Another point; the Islam notion of "paradise" is not even close to Heaven. There are no sexual encounters with virgins but more importantly we get to serve God and learn of Him eternally.
Sin entered t6he world when man disobeyed God and made a choice forbidden to him: this is the story of the Garden and Adam and Eve. We are taught that God created Creation for man, who He (God) created to have a perfect relationship with. I, you, we are created to Worship God. The only way to redemption out of sin was/is Jesus Christ and no man comes to the Father but through Jesus.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6
You can't understand God through logic. The Holy Spirit of God teaches us how to discern the spirits of men, whether they are good or evil.
You are a seeker of Truth. That's good. God at this moment is calling you to Himself and when He reveals Himself to you He will use you and your knowledge that He has bestowed upon you to witness for Jesus. This is your future. The path is narrow but with God everything is possible...
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