Reconciling truth with faith, and fundamentalism

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   livelongerposted 14 years ago

   This was a thought-provoking post by a Catholic blogger:
   http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com … ology.html
   
   
   and this
   
   
   I'm not Catholic or Christian, myself, but I agree with him on many points.
   
   I'm interested in what others might think. Thoughtful commentary (whether it's in agreement or not), please.

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      Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      If I understand correctly what part of the article is the blogger's words and what parts are not, then I agree with him on one thing----he is not a Christian.  Which he seems quite audaciously proud of,  to his own shame actually.
      
      I'm not sure what his definition of "fundamentalist" is, but if it means taking the Bible at its word and believing the Biblical account of Jesus's life and death and resurrection (which he seems to dismiss as false), then I'm a fundamentalist (as is ANY Christian).  And the blogger's article is simply an egotistical religious rant against Christianity with the critique of another anti-Mormonism writer thrown in (for what purpose, I dunno, except perhaps to try to fake people out about what side he's on...).
      
      I'm appalled that he wants to dismiss the literal act of Jesus's walk here on earth by changing the Scripture in John from "the Word" to "reason", as though it didn't literally happen.   The man is into mysticism or some such nonsense, and apparently cannot understand that the manifestation of the Christ was both literal and Spiritual.  Jesus was the Word in the flesh, God in the flesh.   I'd be disappointed if anyone takes that blogger's meanderings to heart.

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         livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Did you read the actual article? It seems like you're just reacting and passing judgment based on an incomplete reading of the article.

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            Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Then correct me by pointing out what I missed.  Isn't that the blogger's view that he doesn't believe the Bible?  That he thinks the accounts of Jesus's resurrection, in particular, aren't true?  I did read the entire article.  And that's what I got from it.

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               livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I'm not going to read it for you, but he doesn't believe everything is the literal truth, because it couldn't be the literal truth. He points out the conflicting accounts of Jesus's final words as just one instance of an irreconcilable inconsistency.
               
               He is fairly clear about his belief in Jesus.

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                  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Okay, I got that.   At least he claims to believe.  But that in itself is inconsistent with his view of the Resurrection and his view that the Bible isn't correct.  A Christian believes the Bible.   So, he himself said he's not a Christian.   Is he Catholic, as you referred to in the original post?  Okay....so....he's inconsistent already since a Catholic should be a Christian too, and Catholics believe the Bible.
                  
                  
                  And no he isn't even fairly clear, from what I read, about his belief in Jesus; at least, not Jesus as the God and Savior that He is.  Maybe he believes in Jesus as a historical fact?   I dunno.   But he is apparently very confused about even the basics of Christianity.  That is my thoughtful commentary, based on the words of the blogger.

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                     livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     

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                     recommend1posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Who is christian, the blogger or Brenda ?
                     
                     On balance, from the tone and content of both their comments it would have to be the blogger who is the 'more' christian, showing tolerance, thoughtfulness and also a reasoning ability.

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                        just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        That exact question has always been a head scratcher for me, when reading the posts of the Bible literalists on this forum.

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                           livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           Most of them are not Bible literalists in any consistent fashion. They are literal about the parts that don't apply to them, and very, very liberal about the parts that do. (They will go silent the second you call them on it)
                           
                           For instance, some will insist Jesus spent a lot of time condemning homosexuals, while implying that he was fine with divorce. They usually don't rely on scripture to support heretical theses like these.

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                              just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              I'm not aware of any statement by Jesus on homosexuality, or divorce. I may be wrong about divorce, but definitely not homosexuality. Paul ran his mouth a lot, but he appeared to have issues that caused that.

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                                 livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 That's right - Paul mentioned it, but Jesus never.
                                 
                                 About divorce, Jesus condemned it at least four times:
                                 Matthew 5:31-32
                                 Matthew 19:9
                                 Mark 10:11-12
                                 Luke 16:18
                                 
                                 If you're waiting for all those "devout" Christians who are dead-set against any gay equality to try to get divorce banned...don't hold your breath.

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                                    Aficionadaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    Well, don't be too hasty in your confidence.  I grew up in a time when divorce really was considered to be close to an abomination.  It used to be (maybe still is, I don't know) that Roman Catholics could be excommunicated because of divorce.  And as recently as about 20 years ago, a young woman I knew was hesitant to seek a divorce from an abusive husband because she "didn't believe in" divorce.  Attitudes among Christians concerning divorce have not always been the same as they are today - even in my own lifetime.  A lot of change is not instantaneous.

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                                       livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       Yes, well, to be clear, I am all for divorce. If you don't love someone, you shouldn't be married to them. All the more reason to get a divorce if you're with an abusive spouse.
                                       
                                       But, you're right: self-identified "Christian fundamentalists" are increasingly willing to give themselves plenty of leeway on those prohibited behaviors, if it might apply to them, sometimes for very good reason. But they demand absolute adherence to those condemnations that don't interest them personally, no matter how cruel such condemnations are.

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                                    just_curiousposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    Well, although I think the whole thing is hypocritical I wouldn't advocate forcing them to consider divorce wrong. I think I probably saw those passages you referenced as showing how everything, according to law is sin; without taking the individual into account.
                                    
                                    I know I stayed married because I was unwilling to deal with the stigma of being divorced. He died young, so I got my reprieve; but I wouldn't wish unhappiness on anyone. Everyone makes mistakes. Even the religious.

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      paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      
      
      All religions accept the facts of science which just explores from nature that has been Created by the Creator-God.

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   just_curiousposted 14 years ago

   I thought it was an excellent article. I loved the part (and have always agreed) where he said fundamentalism wasn't a true faith in God. I always tried to be supportive of them, always called them the weaker Christians; because of the insanity of believing in things that were proven wrong, time and again.
   
   I'm afraid I don't think there are useful lies. When something is proven wrong you have to accept it and move on.

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      livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I agree with you completely.

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   Aficionadaposted 14 years ago

   ... and it's really nothing new.  It's very easy for us Christians to forget that there have been disagreements from the beginning about which aspects of the faith were most important and which ones were less important; about what was essential to believe in order to be a Christian and what could be allowed to be a matter of personal belief.  It's not even exclusive to Christianity.

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      livelongerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Absolutely!

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   dingdondingdonposted 14 years ago

   What an interesting article. Conflicting stories in the Bible is an issue atheists like to discuss between ourselves, but I have never found a Christian who enjoys discussing them too until this article - and I think he addresses them very thoughtfully, accepting them without trying to explain them away but also reconciling them with his faith.

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