Why Don' t Christians Believe?

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AKA Winstonposted 12 years ago
Dear Mr. or Mrs. Christian,

You have often asked me to prove to you that there is no god. You claim proof and evidence that what you believe is true by pointing to the words in a book. You claim a man-god rose from the dead to save the world from sin, and you point to the books of the bible that tell of his story as proof and evidence.

I have rejected your evidence as non-compelling, and your claims in the supernatural as unsubstantiated hope.

Yet, when you the Christian are asked to disprove that Allah is the one true god, you cannot do it. The Qu'ran repeatedly claims it is the perfect word of the world's creator, yet you do not accept that evidence. There is literature that paints a picture of Muhammad as the last great prophet, that Jesus was not divine, and believers in Jesus will spend eternity in hell - but you ignore that evidence out of hand, too.

To you, the evidence of Islam is not compelling, and their claims of their supernatural beings are unsubstantiated fiction.

Congratulations. You now know what it means to be an atheist in regards to Islam.

We atheists, on the other hand, extend your non-belief as to Islam to encompass all other religions and gods.

So the next time you want to challenge an atheist as to why he doesn't accept your belief, you may instead simply ask yourself why you don't accept Islamic beliefs.

You will find the reasons are the same.
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  paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Neither Christians nor the atheists can prove that the ONE-Creator-God does not exist.
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  recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Neither can Islam
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nor can religionists prove he does.
  
  Nor can they prove that little bo-peep lost her sheep and didn't know where to find them.
  We can however realize that if she lost them, she wouldn't know where to find them obviously.
  
  We can't prove that the three bears had different beds either, or that Fred Flintstone really loved Wilma and worked in that quarry even though we have more proof of it than you do for your beliefs.
  I guess we are all too dumb, and can't prove anything at all really.
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  kimberlyslyricsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Earnest your killing me tonight yhr P on my keyboard is stuck/sticky? ewe
  
  question again, I thought Christians believed how come they stopped? Was it the run for cure event that got some knickers in a bow?
  
  Just curious and very confused :
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Kimberley! I have no idea what they know about other fairytales.
  Just thought I would try to find out.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  paar,
  
  Don't brag. You also cannot prove that the invisible pink elephant that lives in my garage does not exist. So what is your point? Your fantasies are more believable than mine? '
  
  How so? The color pink is known. Elephants exist. O.K, so 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
  
  How about god(s)? How much objective evidence is there for an immaterial invisible all-powerful spirit?
  
  Kids, can you say nada?
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  Digsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You know that he (God) is by what he has created and is plainly evident.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (You know that he (God) is by what he has created)
  
  Digs,
  
  So which masterpiece did he sign? And whose signature is it? Is it Jehovah.? Allah? Mars? Poseiden?
  
  Btw, I happen to agree with your premise. Creation is impossible. God cannot create anything. Therefore, a creator-god is impossible.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your analogy leaves out the most important thing.
  That would be the Holy Spirit.
  And indeed that is one of the reasons that Christians reject Islam. So your comparison to that, even, is misplaced.
  
  But go right ahead with your disbelief if you wish. I no longer challenge atheists as to why they don't accept belief in Christ, because I already know why they don't believe.
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Brenda, what is the reason for the non belief?
  
  I think it is education and a tendency not to be gullible myself.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  hardheartedness
  rebellion
  the same stuff that got 1/3 of the angels knocked down to the earth
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (the same stuff that got 1/3 of the angels knocked down to the earth)
  
  Brenda,
  
  What about Hansel and Gretel - I was positive they were in that story, too.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda, Agreed. Atheists just don't want to believe in God. That's why they refuse to admit that God exist.
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  dingdondingdonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nah. Why wouldn't an atheist want to believe? The idea that you'll go to a paradise so long as you believe and repent is a lovely idea, much nicer than "you die and that's it". But we atheists cannot force ourselves to believe something we think is unlikely. We do not have those powers of self-delusion.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda has previously answered your question above. You have free choice to believe what you want.
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  mathsciguyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I do so hate replying to such deeply threaded posts - it makes is difficult sometimes to follow. But, I feel that I may contribute a valid point here.
  
  You say that a person has free choice to believe what they want. Assuming this to be true (ie, not disagreeing with you whatsoever), where does the "want" come from? If I truly believe what I "want," then what is it that causes me to "want" to believe that way? I mean this in a deeper sense than can be answered by "because you, sir, are hardhearted and rebellious." Even assuming that to be true (that I am hardhearted and rebellious), what is it that makes me that way, leading to my "want" to believe a certain idea? Was I born hardhearted and rebellious? I don't know if I've made the question clear enough, so please do tell me if I'm being unclear or doubletalk-ish.
  
  Anyway, it seems to me that from this line of reasoning a person could be shown to be completely unresponsible (and therefore blameless) for whatever he or she believed. Obviously, this clashes somewhat with the notion that a person can be punished for eternity because of their particular beliefs in life. Food for thought? Or not?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Holy Spirit draws all mankind toward Him. Jesus promised that before He went to the cross.
  After that, it's all up to the person to choose Him or to rebel.
  Knowing that God is almighty, omniscient, and that He is Love, how anyone can keep refusing Him has to be a matter of rebellion.
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  mathsciguyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What do you think makes a person rebellious, Brenda Durham?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Selfishness, audacity.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I cannot see how it is possible to have a choice of what to believe when belief is determined by what is thought to be right and valid. We are shown the axioms of mathematics and are taught that 2+2=4. We do not have the choice to disbelieve. We believe because we have concluded our beliefs represent the best choice for us, and it is not possible to go against this conclusion.
  
  On the other hand, we can decide what to have faith in. Faith is not so compelling an emotion as belief. Faith is more like crossing one's fingers and hoping - and like one with crossed fingers and hope, that faith has no affect whatsoever on reality. Whatever is going to happen, happens, but at least the faithful got to close his eyes, cross his fingers, and pretend otherwise.
  
  There is no option to change belief, though. A change of belief can only occur with evidence so compelling as to alter the underlying emotional response to the idea. At which point the change of belief occurs, and preventing it is impossible.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hi mathsciguy, I will leave you to answer the first two questions in your post. A person chooses to be rebellious.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Rebellion only comes because of tyrants or dictators. Nice try, try again.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There you go again.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Please try and remember, duality does apply. Tyrants and Dictators will always have rebels. You take away the tyrants and dictators, then you will take away rebels as well.
  
  What do you know? Self responsibility shows it's ugly head, yet again.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, but I don't need you to educate me. Your perception is twisted to fit your view. I respectfully disagree with your perception. No thanks for your help. Have a nice day weekend.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So you're saying you don't believe in individual self responsibility? That's good to know. But, thank you for telling I am twisted. It certainly goes to show your lack of knowledge.
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  Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  @Cagsil: You write, "Rebellion only comes because of tyrants or dictators." This is incorrect. Rebellion manifests itself as resistance to authority. Authority can be tyrannical, dictatorial, or benevolent. Some people are hardwired to resent authority in whatever guise it occurs, rationally or irrationally, whether it is actually existent or merely perceived.
  
  Your schtick appears to be a celebration of dogmatism. Why? You often make valid points. Those points would reach a wider audience if you would drop the cockiness.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Duality reigns. Enjoy.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  _______________
  It is to return to paradise and it has nothing to do with believing.
  One day I will write a hub on what really happened, in the Jewish scriptures not the Christians.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ______________________
  According to the Bible, The angels weren't kicked out for rebellion.
  They did something much worse. Look and you'll see.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (That would be the Holy Spirit. And indeed that is one of the reasons that Christians reject Islam)
  
  Brenda,
  
  So if Islam had its own ghost, then it would be O.K., too?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's too late for Islam to come up with its own "ghost" or its own Messiah. The Word of God has stood the test of time and will stand through eternity.
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  recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I met a traveller from an antique land
  Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
  Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
  Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
  And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
  Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
  Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
  The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
  And on the pedestal these words appear:
  `My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
  Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!'
  Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
  Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
  The lone and level sands stretch far away."
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  poor dead guy, whoever he was.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (The Word of God has stood the test of time and will stand through eternity.)
  
  Brenda,
  
  You mean the Qu'ran, I take it? That is the word of god according to Muslims.
  
  Or are you still atheist in regards to Allah?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "atheist in regards to Allah" OH that's a new oxymoron!
  
  Take that wrinkled label and try to pin it on some willing soul, 'cause I ain't buying it.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda,
  
  Pardon me. Then you believe Allah is god? You accept the Islamic arguments as to why Allah is god?
  
  Gee, I didn't think you believed in Allah.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, silly.
  Allah is not God. So, to try to label me as an atheist is erroneous on all counts.
  IF I were to say I don't believe in God, then you might have a chance to label me an atheist.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda,
  
  I didn't label you as an atheist. I said you were an atheist in regards to Allah.
  Here, let me refresh your memory.
  
  (Allah is not God.)
  
  I take that as fairly persuasive evidence that you do not accept Allah as God
  Neither do I.
  
  See, we think alike, after all.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But I DO accept God as God. So I'm not atheist by any stretch of the imagination.
  The Bible also calls Him many other names/things, like JAH, Jehovah, Jealous, I AM THAT I AM, Counselor, etc....
  
  Who or what do you accept as God, if any?
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't accept any religion's claims of a god for the same reasons you don't accept Allah as god - no one can offer any compelling objective evidence that their belief is based on reality.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (Allah is not God.)
  (But I DO accept God as God.)
  
  Brenda,
  
  Let me see I if I understand your argument.
  
  P1: God is not God
  P2 Unless God is God
  P3: At which point God is God again (from P2)
  P4: Unless it is your God (from P1)
  P5: Then God is not God (from P1, P4)
  
  Therefore, I am right.
  
  Damn convincing, I have to admit.
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  mrpopoposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not to be argumentative, but the word Allah simply means God. It is like "chien" in French and "dog" in English. That's all. You actually do believe in Allah.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think so. Unless I've missed the word Allah in the Bible. Which I don't think so!
  Some weird-thinking people might name their god "Henry" for all I know. But unless Henry is referred to as God in the Bible, then Henry is not another valid name for God.
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you read the bible in Arabic, you will read the word Allah. It simply means God, nothing more or less.
  Why does that scare you? It's a word. Another language. That's all, darlin'.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (If you read the bible in Arabic, you will read the word Allah)
  
  See, there's one more reason to make English the official language! :-) How do you say creationist in Arabic?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I may be wrong. I'm not a language expert by any means.
  But from limited research it's to be understood that "Allah" was derived from a paganistic view of "God" in which "God" or "Allah" was not the sole divinity. Islam borrowed or took the concept for its own usage to label "Allah" as their specific "God".
  
  So the connotations and meaning were not, and are not, the same as the God of the Christians.
  
  Let me say this-----if my name (or your name) were put in the middle of any translation, it would remain the same. Mine would still be Brenda, not a different connotation of it. Same with the one God. Am I not correct?
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  paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is the attributes that matter; every language could have different names for the ONE Creator-God Allah YHWH. Trinity is not a good name; it is blemished, unreal and mythical. The Christians should realize.
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Trinity is not a name!
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ____________________
  AGREED
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually Allah is, according to the Qura'n, the same Abrahamic God that you worship. You know the story of Ishmael, and he was promised to be the seed of a great people. That's from Genesis.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ah. Yes, I know the Islam belief is taken (supposedly anyway) from Genesis's account of Ishamael. But a "great" people doesn't always mean a Godly people.
  No matter who may interpret it differently.
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Read the passage in Genesis. God is quite kind to Ishmael. Do you doubt your own holy book?
  Me too.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Indeed, God was kind to Ishmael. But He sent him away, because he was not the child of the promise like Isaac was.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ______________________
  But they changed God's name to God. God is a title, not a name.
  
  Get yourself a Hebrew bible that is translated to English by a Hebrew. The English Bible was copied in part of the Hebrew scriptures. They edited many things
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (But unless Henry is referred to as God in the Bible, then Henry is not another valid name for God.)
  
  Wasn't Henry the talking mule?
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  Baileybearposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  no reply after Earnest's comment, so will post here: I've come across Trinity as a girl's name
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  _____________________
  
  The Bible called God many names, but when translated all the names were replaced with the word God. Allah could have been there.
  
  Elohim was changed to God
  Aloah Tzabaoth was changed to God
  
  El, Eheiah, Adonai, El Shaddai, El Elyon, all of these and more are what the English changed to the generic GOD,
  
  They all appear in Jewish scripture that was copied by the English translators. But they decided to change it.
  
  The word GOD is actually a derivative of the German word Gott,
  
  Anytime anyone shares something with you, it's rejected.
  God is deep and there is so much more to know.
  
  Matthew 22:29
  Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (I no longer challenge atheists as to why they don't accept belief in Christ)
  
  Brenda,
  
  Right - except for this time. :-)
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  Titen-Sxullposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  While I agree with the overall point you are making Winston I don't think the reasons that Christians do not accept Islam are at all the same to why I (or many other atheists) reject Christianity. Most Christians I've spoken to on the subject do not reject Islam due to skepticism or the fact it has no evidence to back it up, they do so simply because it contradicts their current beliefs, their dogma of choice states that all other gods are false but the Christian God therefore they reject deities out of hand. So while our conclusions may be the same I don't think the reasons are the same.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (their dogma of choice states that all other gods are false but the Christian God therefore they reject deities out of hand.)
  
  Titen-Sxull,
  
  That is the point. There is just as much evidence and conviction that Allah is god and that the Qu'ran is infallible as there is for Jehovah and the bible, so you would think Christians would be up all night worrying about which choice of beliefs is right.
  
  They do not, though. The reason is that they do not see compelling evidence that Islam is right and they are wrong.
  
  As you say, their choice of one god excludes any others. So in regards to other gods, they are atheists.
  
  The atheist simply takes one more step. All gods are excluded, as no complelling evidence exists for any.
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  paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why Don' t Christians Believe?
  
  That Trinity has no truthful legs to stand.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  _______________________
  
  In Hebrew the word "Godhead" means the full power of the Holy Ghost.
  For some reason the Christians think it means Trinity?? I don't know why.
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Deborah!
  The trinity, if seen through the eyes of psychiatry, is a way of understanding part of the mental journey involved in the process of individuation and is not seen in any literal sense.
  
  My mom was catholic and explained the meaning of the trinity to me.
  
  It was not of use to me until I studied psychology where it saved me a lot of time in understanding the connections between our myths, archetypes and symbols.
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  cheaptrickposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There Is proof,but to prove the proof I'd have to"Federal Express"it cause it's"Mailable"Ha!My apologies dude,I was a bit of a jerk last time we met.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am sorry if you were offended.
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  ziggy65posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sir, there is more proof that Christ lived, was murdered, then resurrected then there is information on any of the great Casears that lived. If you do not believe the Bible, the true voice of God, there is nothing anyone can do for you. You reject the truth of what God and our savior Jesus Christ have taught. There is nothing more righteous than the the ten commandments, that is what Roman rulers followed. Jesus Christ has had more believers down through the centuries than any other religion. Why do you think that is? Do you think that many people were dead wrong? There were over a million people in Jerusalem during the passover when Christ was resurrected from the dead. He walked the streets showing his wounds to the crowds, ate and drank with his believers, appeared and disappeared as he pleased and promised his apostles eternal life. He was who he said he was, he was the son of God as advertised. Do you think this was all some fairy tale made up by a bunch of hucksters? Or perhaps the word spread about his resurrection,they saw his wounds, knew he had been nailed to the cross, and knew this was the same man the apostles followed. Then thousands watched him ascend into heaven as he promised to return to the spot he ascended from, the Mount of Olives. Why do you think the Eastern Gate in Jerusalem is walled up? It is because he promised to walk through that gate when he returned. Why do the Arabs fear the one true son of God? If you do not believe it is not because there is no proof, it is because you fail to see what God has brought you. When you are in your own sin you cannot talk to God until you ask him to remove the sin. When sin is removed there is a clear channel to the one true God. Just ask forgiveness from your sins, then he will forgive you, and then you will be able to pray to God and he will answer in his own good time. The rest is up to you. I have seen God work in my life many times, if you want the same then try what I have told you. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to God but through him. I am a living example.........
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  Baileybearposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  go right ahead and provide some proof to back up your claim
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ________________
  It is in the Jewish history books and taught in the schools. Every judge has to be versed in the Torah. All of the city ordinance's are based on the Torah.
  They know their history the same way as everyone...artifacts and writings.
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  Baileybearposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  dragons are in jewish mythology - does this make them real?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ______________________
  Mythology is in every country. Mythological characters did not write anything or leave artifacts.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I would ignore this but it simply is not true. there are many many artifacts that are not Jewish, Deborah. Namely, Egyptian, Sumerian, Chinese, etc.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  __________
  Who said there wasn't?
  
  The ones you mentioned were real people, not mythological
  
  Doesn't anyone read what the other person wrote before replying?
  
  Derrr
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  ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  dragons were real, Dracorex Hogwatsia is a species of dinosaurs that matches the description of dragons. here's an article from Stanford.
  
  http://humanexperience.stanford.edu/feature-dragons
  
  plus there are many stories from myths that are based on an actual events and locations, like for instance the garden of eden or the labyrinth and the minotaur.
  
  Tavros was a bullheaded boy not a boy with a head of a bull. But it somehow evolves into these stories that are magical because it is the way the brain remembers details, in a kind of magical realism infusing history with symbology.
  
  So yes, I read the above posts.
  
  In China their mythology involved characters that would have lived but have become legend. and so on...
  
  Creation Myths are found in Hinduism and Native American which could mean two things, they are relics of an old body of knowledge that was prehistoric or they are altogether another kind of phenomenon, one that is hardwired in the psyche.
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  paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  May be; since these are pre-historic things; there is no written records to verify it; one could therefore guess either way.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  well, you see fossil that looks like a dragon and its a dinosaur, pretty much that is the verification. i thought the seven days of creation pretty much sums up evolution. but ofcourse people have to be all scardy-cat about it,like it means they're all going to hell or something. It only means we have to investigate deeper into it.
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  ziggy65posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The proof is in the Bible and if you do not believe God's word then there is nothing neither I or God can do for you. Faith is what you lack. Jesus was raised from the dead and ascended into heaven -proof, he changed water into wine at the wedding freat - proof, he raised Lazuruz from the grave -proof, he healed the lame and the sick - proof, ovetr 1 million people seen him in Jeruasalem during passover after he was resurrected - proof, thousands seen him asend into heaven - proof, I could go on and on, but it is because you do not believe or have faith in your own God that was sent to this earth to take your sins away and died on the cross for you. Because of this disbelief you find it hard knowing right from wrong, what truth is, and where we are going as a nation frrom here.......
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hi ziggy, Welcome to Hubpages. I love the way you backed up the facts. I believe you have a wonderful testimony of what God has done in your life.
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  ziggy65posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you darlin, I have been a Christian for quite some time, I have done my share of backslidin don't get me wrong. In times of trouble though I have always turned to God to save me from destruction, he is indeed the truth, the light, and the way. And this is what the Muslims do not understand. No one comes to God except through Jesus Christ, our savoir. He is he only channel to come to God through, there is no other, period. But then you have to have faith, put on the armor of God, which is his word, and no one can defeat you. Remember when God was being tempted by the devil and his answer was get behind me Satan. That was all that was needed to be said. The Devil had to obey because it is God who is in charge of mankind's destiny, not Satans....
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  Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Notice how your post does nothing but cause conflict with Muslims, evangelizes your god and your religion and finishes with a military motif?
  
  Horrible religion.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh come now Beezle. You just know you are deliberately misrepresenting ziggy's references to armour to trot out the old chestnut of religion = wars.
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  Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Really? Perhaps then, can you explain the reason why the words used are from of a military perspective? This is supposed to be a religion, right? Teaching love and peace, yes?
  
  "....armor of God...a good soldier of Jesus Christ...chosen him to be a soldier...
  
  God's Word describes the Christian life as warfare...armored against his many weapons..."whole armor of God."
  
  It's time to check up and find out if our armor is in place..."
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Come now don't pretend to be so niaive. The armour and soldier references are an allegory. They are talking about spiritual warfare. Christians battling against forces of evil in the world. Such things as crime, poverty, abuses of power, corruption etc, not little old atheist who's doing his weekly shopping, as well you know.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well actually I probably wrong on the last point because many Christians think atheists unknowingly suck satan's toes after they've put the shopping away. So yes they think they are in a war for your soul and your blood is on their hands if you are burned for an eternity in hell.
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  Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I know. And, whether the battling and warfare is spiritual or corporeal, it is what it is.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ziggy, Amen. We have to keep our focus on God and not the circumstances in our times of trouble.
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Having faith in the truth of the stories you mention is not proof. It is faith.
  I'm not knocking your faith. Just don't present it as proof. It is no such thing. There is no proof of the veracity of these stories. You have to invest in them. You have. That's great.
  But it's not proof. That's a different thing.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  _____________
  The eastern gate visible today in the Temple wall did not exist at the time of Yahshua (Jesus), so he never entered it. The location of the earlier eastern gate, and the gate of today, does not agree with the description of the future Temple as in Ezekiel chapters 40-42. And, the eastern gate of Ezekiel chapter 44 will be in the future , not in the current Temple wall. It has not been built yet.
  
  The importance of the eastern gate of the future Temple being permanently closed is that God will permanently dwell in the midst of His people. He will never leave and never have a need to enter again.
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1
  
  Proof is not available. Evidence given through decades and centuries of oral tradition passed on between countries and languages and altered by scribes both accidentally and with purpose are what you have chosen as proof. If proof existed, faith would be unnecessary. Proof would undermine Hebrews.
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  ziggy65posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is bcause people have no faith is the reason they have no proof of God's existence. I ask for things in prayer and God answers my prayer, that is proof to me God exists. That is my proof, because I have faith in God that he will deliver what I ask in prayer I know that God works for me. If you want proof you must be saved and born again, then God will deliver you from your sin. He will look upon you without sin when you are forgiven so you will have a clear path to talk with him in prayer and to answer you in prayer. You first must have faith in him who created you......
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  Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, you're not.
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  ziggy65posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil" (Ephesians 6:11). "Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier" (2 Timothy 2:3,4). Merely spiritual-sounding metaphor? But what if the devil knows you by name, knows where you live, knows your character? Are you armored against him?
  
  God's Word describes the Christian life as warfare; identifies the devil as a vicious, cunning enemy; and urges the repentant sinner to be armored against his many weapons. Unfortunately, many wear only a thin cotton shirt.
  
  Ephesians 6:11-17, which describes the "whole armor of God." Without the spiritual armor God's Word describes, we are unprotected from Satan and his wiles. It's time to check up and find out if our armor is in place; to find out if we and our loved ones are protected from the devil. Do you know what that armor is?
  
  If you call on God's angels to protect you, if you are saved and born again, God has to send them to protect you and your families life if you feel threatened by the devil. Or you aware of that?
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  Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The only thing that is threatening here is your religion, which appears to be based entirely on military and warfare tactics and practices. All it does is cause conflict and wars.
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  ziggy65posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The whole armor of God is knowing the entire word of God. That is how you protect yourself from the wiles of the devil, but because you do not believe in God, it looks like, you surely will not believe in the devil. Yes it is a dangerous world out there, but God did not make it that way. It was man who learned how to destroy mankind with weapons, now we have weapons of mass destruction. Didn't the geniuses of the world accomplish this with the government's help? Yes we do need protection against the world's madmen and who inspires them? I do not think it is God my friend....
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ok ziggy. I believe inGod and that He came into the world Himself in the flesh aka Jesus. I go to work, pay my taxes, and support a family. So in my ordinary life in thus ordinary world just what are these wiles of the devil that I should be wary of? And what exactly is so dangerous about the world other than the suicide bomber and the muppet on the other car who needs to learn how to drive?
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  ziggy65posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  pornography that takes time away frrom a happy marriage, living together without getting married, having an adulterous affair outside of your marriage, breaking any of the ten commandments leads to sin, etc. The devil tempts you everday, then if you give in it adds sin in your life and then you cannot get God to answer your prayers because you have covered yourself in sin and God cannot look upon sin until you ask for forgiveness of your sins and wipe the slate clean. The devil is wily, clever very smart, and if you read your scripture an angel of light. He was an archangel that was one of the most beautiful angels God created. Ther devil has so deceived this age that he has mankind believing he does not exist, how is that for wily. The devil is suspect in these matters because God will not allow you to live very long on the earth if you keep sinning and if you die in your sin you will lose your chance at going to heaven and living forever in the eternal state. Like Jesus promised........
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  Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That makes sense. It must be that the starving children of the world haven't yet asked for forgiveness of their lifelong sins and pacts with the devil, hence their prayers for food go unanswered. God must win against the devil, no matter what the consequences.
  
  True, those children have very short lives and must be burning in hell for their sins on earth, the sin of starving.
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  ziggy65posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The starving kids are being starved because there parents are not smart enough to move to where the food happens to be in large supply. duh, First of all no one is burning in hell, yet, it has not been created. People are only rotting in the grave to later be resurrected to the white throne judgement. Are you really that biblically illiterate?
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ziggy. Can you please point exactly where in the bible that the devil was once a beautiful archangel in charge of music, that rebelled against God because of pride, and was thrown out.
  Those sins you mentioned. Please point to the exact scripture where they are explicitly defined as temptations of the devil, as opposed to natural sins of the human which needs no devil's encouragement at all to commit.
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  ziggy65posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you do not know how to do research in the Bible then I feel for you bro. You need these answers so you should do the work yourself. I am not your mentor, I only point you in the rigtht direction. It is up to you to find out for yourself if you indeed have the guts. Do something for yourself in this life. Go out and buy Strong's Bible Concorndance that has every word in the Bible cagtalogued. Then go buy the King James version of scripture and go for it. The concordance will tell you everywhere archangel is mentioned, everywhere Satan is mentioned, Lucifer is mentioned, demons are mentioned, etc. That is the way I learned, how are you any better than me to do the research. Get off your lazy keester and do the research yourself. Have you always had everything handed to you? It will also mean more to you if you do it, duh don't ya think?
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Do you know the history of the KJV? Do you know it's limitations, the enormous amount of older documents discovered since its publication, the limitations of the Latin Vulgate that it is based on, the shabby work done on the filling in of the blanks that the Vulgate left?
  Or did your pastor just say this is the authorized text and you left it at that?
  Strongs is a valuable tool, but if you want to know everything about greed, you can't just look up greed. It will identify all uses of a word, but not a concept. You have to be careful with it.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ziggy. I have multiple bibles including a Tanach and an interlinear Greek, also a Strongs. I use them frequently. I wouldn't touch a king James with a barge pole. Any version that has had of the order of 10,000 corrections since the first edition has to be a bit crap.
  
  The reason I asked you about the origins of Satan was to see if you would come out with the old Sunday school nonsense that he was once some beautiful archangel etc. You have proved my point and proved you have not studied yourself. Had you done you would have seen through these Sunday school myths.
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  Baileybearposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  it's interesting how some christians won't read anything but the KJV
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Vested interest.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (Ther devil has so deceived this age that he has mankind believing he does not exist, how is that for wily.)
  
  You must be off your medications again - and what did the neighbor's dog tell you to do this time?
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  Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  One fantasy is as equivalently ridiculous as another. Yours however, requires warfare and military strategies in order to function and exist. That's a very bad ideology as it does not harbor or teach peace.
  
  True, a belief in gods made it that way.
  
  Religions have dominated the planet for centuries, in every aspect. There's your reasoning.
  
  Do you mean that leaders of governments who are religiously motivated pay others to develop weapons based on the discoveries of scientists? Yes, that is true.
  
  True, the world needs protection from their followers.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (Sir, there is more proof that Christ lived, was murdered, then resurrected then there is information on any of the great Casears that lived.)
  
  Ziggy,
  
  This is just an assinine claim of the uninformed or ignorant. You are seriously knee deep in the Kook-aid and in danger of losing whatever is left of your mind. Jim Jones would have loved you, as would any huckster on any street corner on the planet. Uri Geller would have owned you.
  
  (If you do not believe the Bible, the true voice of God, there is nothing anyone can do for you)
  
  Which particular bible do you mean? The Protestant bible that didn't even come into being until the 17-18th century, which is different than the Catholic bible. Or do you mean the ancient scrolls, of which not a single original is left, the ones with thousands upon thousands of errors and contradictions between each other? The ones that scribes added their own words to. Those inerrant copies? Is that what you mean?
  
  Make up your mind - your claim is that the correct inerrant bible just happens to be the one you believe in - how utterly convenient for you and your beliefs.
  I don't buy that you are that lucky to guess the right one, and it is obvious you are too ill-informed to know.
  
  Your claims are those of the ignorant who closes his eyes in order to believe the pablum being fed to him by fellow believers.
  
  Take it to the 700 Club - they will love it. People with real reasoning power - even those who also believe - think your version is dumb.
  
  That does explain the 144,000, though, as it would be hard to find that many people that dimwitted and naive.
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  ziggy65posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well stupid is as stupid does and you my friend have no arguement expect to marginalize people that do believe, when you cannot make a sound argument for what you say you mock, make fun and act like you know what the truth is when in fact you do not have a clue. I would say you are lost and I think the rest of the forum would agree withe me.........
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ziggy,
  
  I don't need to debate you just like I don't need to debate the guy on the corner holding up a sign that says, The End Is Near.
  
  You are uninformed - it is not my job to educate you .
  
  Regardless of the number of votes cast for you on American Morons, reality remains reality. There are almost as many Muslims who vote for Allah as God as there are Christians - why don't you consider their votes as valid as yours?
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  ziggy65posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are a creep that has no argument then to try to marginalize people and their beliefs. Your picture is what you are, the joker. God sets with the host of heaven and laughs in derision at you and your ilk and calls you a fool for not believing in him sir. I have never met a person so biblically ignorant as you, you are what God would call lost, like without hope, because you are proud of your ignorance, arrogant to the point you would never see the light of a freight train of truth coming at you. You are what elders in the church would call a simpleton, you have no light in you, only the snickering mockery of a lost fool who has no direction home. How are you going to feel when the role is called in Heaven and you are not on it? Time to burn in hell sir, see ya, I will not post to a ignoroid like you again, you are a complete waste of time.........
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Peace, love, joy, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.
  These are the Fruits of the Spirit from Galatians. They are the traits that identify a mature Christian.
  How many of these does your post violate? You don't have to identify which ones, just give us a total number.
  I came up with nine.
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  Baileybearposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  as for 'biblically ignorant' - you might want to take notice that most of the non-believers on here used to be believers, and are very knowledgeable about what the bible says
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (You are a creep that has no argument then to try to marginalize people and their beliefs)
  
  I do not deny being a creep. One for you.
  However, I marginalize ignorant ideas, not people. One for me.
  Anyone who is insulted because they happen to believe one of the ignorant ideas that I marginalize is not a target but collateral damage. Two for me.
  
  Close. 2 to 1, but at least I don't have to go to hell.
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  mathsciguyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't believe I am familiar with the proof which you are referring to? Could you provide some kind of references, at least? For example, here is a list of works written by Julius Caesar - only one of the many Caesars in question - which is already more convincing proof that the Caesars existed, since (as far as I know) none of Jesus' writings are known to us today.
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  Onusonusposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The most compelling thing in my mind that immediately disqualifies Islam as a valid religion is that it's precepts are diametriaclly opposed to thousands of years of consistant revelation given to God's prophets. There are many witnesses throughout the history of the world who have been guided by God to point his children to belief in a Messiah.
  Jesus had witnesses who saw him heal, Moses had witnesses who saw the red sea open, and every prophet of every dispensation who has been guided by God has had multiple witnesses. Mohammed however, did not. He simply dictated a book which is an antithesis to all other scripture to some scribs. The whole thing of which syas to forget about all other prophecies, and believe in one man's interpertation of thesis. This method of revelation is inconsistant with the way that God has historically spoken to and directed his people, thus it is a fraud.
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earnestshubposted 12 years ago
I find it astounding how many atheists there are amongst religionists, I think it is approximately 100%
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  dutchman1951posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ernest, you have something here for real. I am also finding there is difference from being afronted by a Religion and becoming, or, being an atheist, and it is not a fine line!
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  paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Even then the Atheists and the like are an insignificant "tiny minority"; they were a tiny minority and they will remain as such.
  
  They are not courageous; they are not steadfast; they are People of Doubt.
  
  It is Turth that makes one courageous.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  paar,
  
  Truth?
  
  Where does one buy a gallon of truth? Or is it measured by the kilogram?
  Do you not recognize that truth is an abstraction, a concept that has no meaning until it is given definition.
  
  If truth relies on a human to definie it, it cannot be a thing. All we have to do is point to a thing and grunt - we don't have to give it a label and define what it is.
  
  Truth the abstract concept lives by the sea and frolics in the autumn mist in a land called Hanna Lee - the same area that god, bigfoot, and the Lock Ness Moster are known to habitat.
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jjackson786posted 12 years ago
I believe that people should believe what they want to without needing to explain themselves. I also do not understand why we are debating about God and religion when 1) gas prices are at $4.00 a gallon- any ideas on how to solve that?; 2) there are entire families starving in the streets of this country; 3) war veterans are unable to find jobs, thus breaking my heart whenever I see someone I take to be veteran holding a sign saying, "Need Job- Am Starving" at an intersection; 4) the nationwide rate of homelessness is through the theoretical roof.

Religion is not going to save this world. But what will is the coming together of its citizens intent on casting personal and religious differences aside for the betterment of society.

I suppose that I shall believe in whatever religion does the most for human beings, whether they believe in the "Holy Ghost" or not.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  jjackson786 ... ... Religion is not going to save this world. But what will is the coming together of its citizens intent on casting personal and religious differences aside for the betterment of society.
  
  I suppose that I shall believe in whatever religion does the most for human beings, whether they believe in the "Holy Ghost" or not.
  
  = \ = \ = \ = \
  
  You make a good point! And there lies the problem.
  If Jesus really was the HEAD of organized religion;
  If all of those that SAY that they are followers of Christ truly followed his teachings ??? Would there be so many people starving to death?
  
  We do see some believers doing all that they can to fix the problems of the world. But this is a minority.
  
  Many people blame God for this problem.
  
  That is not the case. It would seem that the followers are not following close enough.
  
  BUT Then again ... It is during times of adversity, hardship, doubt; that we find ourselves ; growing, learning,
  becoming better people.
  
  During times of plenty ... we tend to get lazy and fat.
  The problems in the world today are individual in nature.
  It don't seem so , but that is because most of the individuals are gathered on the same side of the issues.
  
  Lost in the sandstorm ... And throwing rocks even though we do not see clearly what we are throwing at.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (If all of those that SAY that they are followers of Christ truly followed his teachings ??? )
  
  Jerami,
  
  You have without knowing it hit on the prime problem of Christianity - no one knows what the actual teaching of Jesus were.
  
  Jesus did not write down his teachings.
  His contemporary followers were illiterate and could not and did not write down his teachings.
  When the documents were finally written about 35-60 years after the death of Jesus, the originals have not survived and all we have left are copies of copies of copies of copies that have contradictions and errors between virtually all of them.
  
  Now, if you want to accept the teachings of Jesus as portryaed in the bible are good teachings and worthy of being followed, that is well and good, and is what liberal Christians believe.
  
  But when you start tyring to make Jesus into a god, then the whole house of cards falls apart as so much flim-flam.
  
  Would any god allow his teachings to humanity to not survive intatct? The fact that there is no original bible is the best evidence there is that Jesus was not a god and had no father god to watch out for him.
  
  Jesus, the human, may be worth following, though.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No human, on his own, is worth following. Jesus is God. That's what the Bible says and that's the Faith I stick to. Nothing else makes sense, even.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (That's what the Bible says and that's the Faith I stick to)
  
  Brenda,
  
  Had you lived in another century and been subjected to a different authority figure, you could well be today one of those skeletons sitting in the state room of the Titanic at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean saying, "But it is UNSINKABLE!"
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Or if she had been born in Kabul she would be paarsurrey.
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly! Or fighting with the Taliban if Pakistan was home.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think so.
  You see, I was born for such a time as this. And even if I weren't born for it, I would still have free will and the choice to believe or not believe. Just as paarsurrey does. Just as you do.
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Free will is compromised by the belief system we are brought up in. Read my hub on indoctrination.
  There are few things as nefarious as children's church.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Really?
  Free will exists. I can attest to that personally. I have siblings who grew up (indoctrinated, as you put it) into the Christian Faith just as I was raised in it; same Bible, same God, same belief system. Yet some of those siblings are avowed atheists. So don't tell me they didn't have free will.
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Many people rebel against the attempts to indoctrinate them, but few (some, but few) reinvent themselves as something altogether different. Are any of your siblings Taoists?
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (That's what the Bible says )
  
  Brenda,
  
  There is no such animal as THE bible. Do you know the history of the bible, its source documents, and how it was put together?
  
  If you don't then you don't believe in THE bible, you believe in what some authority told you ABOUT the bible.
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Brenda Durhamposted 12 years ago
The Bible doesn't elaborate fully on why Ishmael's line of descendants weren't the children of righteousness like Isaac's. But it does give a few clues in Genesis 36: 3 and Judges 8: 24 and in Psalm 83: 6.
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But we can both agree that the people of Islam are also worshipping the God of Abraham, yes?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, I still cannot agree with that.
  What I will say is that they have the same opportunity as everyone else to choose to believe in the God of Abraham, which points to Jesus Christ as their Savior if they should choose to be born-again. In which case, they will begin to see the Holy Bible as the true story of Christ's mercy, redemption, and guide their lives via that route.
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So who was it that sent Ishmael out to lead a great people?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  God.
  But obviously they did not retain that path. There's free will again. Funny how a thing like that which people try to say doesn't exist, keeps popping up anyway.
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So God was wrong? He didn't go out and become a leader of a great people?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  He did become a leader of a great people. But as I said before, "great" doesn't always mean "Godly".
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But wasn't it God who said they would be great? Seems like you are treading an awfully fine line. God seems to indicate He will be very pleased with Ishmael. Why don't you like what God has obviously deemed special?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, Ishmael was a product of Abraham and Sarah trying to do things according to their own plans instead of God's plans.
  God saw His own plans to fruition no matter what. He is a promise keeper. God chose a specific set of people for specific reasons and nothing stopped His plans. However, it doesn't mean He didn't love everyone. It simply meant that He is sovreign and will and did use the vessels He chose to use.
  I liken it to His plans for Israel, His chosen people, whose rebellion kindled His wrath, but who He vowed to retain; and within that framework, His offer was extended to the Gentiles later to provoke Israel to jealousy. Now, us "Gentiles" have the same opportunity as the rest of God's "Israel" to be saved. Islamists have the same opportunity. Whether they choose to accept or continue in rebellion is their choice.
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So if God promised Ishmael would be the seed of a great people, and he is a promise keeper, why don't you think his people are great?
  Seems like he is using a vessel you just can't accept, but God can.
  
  "My ways are not your ways, my thoughts are not your thoughts. My ways are higher than your ways, my thoughts higher than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9
  
  This much seems to be true.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Islam is great in numbers and great in audacity.
  I don't see why you don't get this-----If Islamists wanted to honor God's mercy on them, they would return to the word of God that's contained in the Bible. They would follow the path that God set up that leads to their salvation. That is the Christian path. Yet they are steeped in religion and a thirst for power. That is not God's way. Of course we cannot know all of God's ways, his thoughts, as you have quoted, yes. But we know His word given to us in the Holy Scriptures, and we know His Word (Jesus).
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Aren't you steeped in religion? Don't you thirst for power in Christ's name? How do you see yourself as different?
  You describe the Christian path. Ishmael is set out on a different path by God. Why not respect God's intention, even if you can't understand it?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No
  No
  and I'm different because the bottom line is a thing called the soul. If I thought Islam or some other religion was the way for people's souls to be saved from hell's fire, I'd advocate those religions.
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  God does not tell Ishmael that he is at risk. That is your layer on top of God's words as recorded in Genesis. Quite the contrary is suggested.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  He's telling them right now, if they'll just pick up a Bible and read it or listen to the witness of Christians. He tells everyone right now. REPENT YE for the Kingdom is at hand. That message has not changed.
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are right. They have been saying that the end is imminent for millenia. Jesus said it, very clearly in the Gospel According to Mark.
  God gave Ishmael's people a different path. You don't understand it. It's not your legacy. It's not your path. They don't understand yours.
  Both have left love behind.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You see it that way.
  But Love in human form came to this earth and offered us all salvation. Islam has no such Savior, in their eyes or their minds or their hearts. They reject the Savior. So it is they who have left love behind in order to prove they are a "great" nation.
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  They don't have to prove anything.
  God declared it in your scripture.
  Is judgment to be yours, or is that in someone elses hands?
  Just love, and give up the rest. Love God, love others. That's enough. In fact, it's too much. We can't handle that. Judgment and discernment are well beyond our abilities. That's what that Isaiah quote is all about. You can't fathom his ways, any more than I can or anyone else. Yes, not even Paul.
  Allow for the mystery of God. Don't imagine you "know". None of us do. No, not even one.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, but yes we can know.
  God is knowable. He has given us His words (the Bible), He has given us the witness of people who actually walked the earth with Him in the form of Jesus, He has given us the Holy Spirit to confirm within us that we are following Him.
  I am not confused. God is mysterious, yes, in many ways, and I nor anyone can know everything. But we can know enough.
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Have you ever done any study regarding how the scriptures actually came down to us? Do you believe the bible to be the inerrant word of God? Perfect and without error?
  If you have never studied the origins of our scripture, why not? Do you believe the twelve were all martyred? What are the sources of those stories? Why do you believe them to be true? Have you ever asked the question?
  Do you know that the authors of the gospels are truly unknown?
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  Pierre Savoieposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How loving was this Jesus when he whipped people? (John 2:15). When you read nonsense like this, or about talking donkeys, you PUT DOWN THE BIBLE, step away from it, and you don't make it a manual for your life. You have to develop your own criteria for living.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The God who created the heaven and earth, the moon and sun and stars, and human beings, can most certainly make a donkey talk if He wanted to. And so He did! That's the only criteria for living-----reverencing the God who IS Life.
  
  And I'd much rather get a "whipping" from the Lord than a kiss from the devil.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Amen.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  _________________________
  The talking donkey is Euphemism. There are many allegories and Metaphors. Take it literal and you're lost.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ____________________________
  Israel has always been saved. The only strangers, the only ones who have to become of God is the Gentiles.
  
  He didn't come to save the righteous but the lost.
  
  Do you feel you are righteous? Trying to be doesn't count.
  
  Genesis 17.
  3. Abram fell face down and God said to him,
  4. "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.
  5. No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.
  6. I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you.
  7. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.
  8. The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."
  
  God always does what he says. He's not a man that he should lie
  Numbers 23:19
  God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
  (Sounds like Jesus isn't God either)
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  _____________________
  
  Great can mean "many" or "Large"
  
  Some of these people were reserved to do a special job, but they weren't Godly jobs.
  
  Like Judas, Apostle Paul, and many more.
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But scripture says God was with Ishmael. He saved his life through the miraculous provision of water. He made him the seed of telve princes. Why do all this for an ungodly man?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ___________________
  Because he has a purpose. He would keep him safe and alive for that purpose.
  I'm not really saying God was against him. I was just stating some are reserved only to carry out prophecy.
  
  I will read it again and see the purpose.
  
  I know he was born in what they called "sin". His father had sex with the handmaiden. Then Sarah was jealous, even though she was the one who talked him into doing it.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (Why do all this for an ungodly man?)
  
  LoL. The simple answer? Because there is no spirit in the sky to care in the first place.
  
  Look at all these paradoxes of religion - all explained completely and ultimately by simply assuming there is no god.
  
  Case closed.
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But that answer doesn't communicate to Brenda and Deborah et.al. You have to build the case.
  With that said, I'm not entirely sure you're right. I just don't think we can know.
  Anyone that is sure, on either side of the debate, is convincing themself to some extent.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  bruce,
  
  Read a little closer, please. Notice that I said "the simple answer is that there is no spirit in the sky, and I followed with an explanation that the hypothesis of no god solved the god paradoxes.
  
  We may never know, but we can certainly make an inductive decision about the most likely.
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  thebrucebeatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't disagree that is the simplest answer. But the useful data in drawing that conclusion is limited. Only objective verifiable data is useful in drawing that conclusion. The universe may encompass more than that, so I remain unconvinced either way. I am open to the unknown.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Although I do concede a few nods in your thinking Winston, one must remember this: if humanism is correct, and the plights foretold be hyper sensation seekers are false, a root remains that something greater than a human exists. Not so much "the spirit in the sky" (great song though), but ad collectum energy, that is all of creation -tangible or otherwise.
  
  Can we 'know' this energy, deduced to entities called God/s? Yes.
  But, it must be an equally deductive decision to experience (understanding) void of and excedding the humanistic approach (the entities themselves). It must be that energy showing humanity and not humanity pretending --pro or con-- to know. The only way to understand is to understand from ad collectum viewpoint. ( I am not referring to universal consciousness either but a genuine loosing from thinking, human thinking to be more precise.)
  
  James.
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thebrucebeatposted 12 years ago
Much is confusing in the bible, isn't it? For instance, Jacob and his mom conspire to steal the birthright of Esau from him, using fraud to deceive his dying father. Yet, Jacob is the one that gets God's blessing.
Crazy stuff, ain't it?
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  Baileybearposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  sure is
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ceciliabeltranposted 12 years ago
I'm sorry but it is almost entertaining. Sadly there is no promise of hope that this conversation is going anywhere.
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paradigmsearchposted 12 years ago
Thanks to ed x, I am here.

I hope I am welcome?
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Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago
There is only one God. Different countries speak in their own tongue.

In Spanish the name Juan is Don in English. But Whichever one he is called, he is the same person.

God is generic and doesn't mean much.

In scripture the name you call someone is also his title or attribute.

The name El Shaddai, means “God Almighty.” and the name El Elyon means “The Most High God.”

In Genesis where it says "let us make man in our image, they have removed the name Elohim and replaced it with God. This gives people the idea there were two that were forming man.
Elohim is the plural form of EL,and indicates two attributes one of Judgment and one of mercy.
Can't explain all of this on the forum.
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  (There is only one God.)
  
  Deborah,
  
  Please exercise a little critical thinking here, as I know nurses are schooled in that type thought. O.K.?
  
  Recently, the Catholic Church sponsored a meeting of cardinals to make a determination about what happens to babies who die without being baptised.
  
  Can you imagine a more assinine or arrogant attempt to guess what happens after death when there is no possibility whatsoever of having the slightest clue or ever knowing while alive what happens?
  
  You are in the same boat with the cardinals when you claim there is only one god.
  
  You don't know - you are only guessing and hoping that what you believe and what you have read is correct.
  
  But don't tell us you know.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ______________
  I must say, no one knows what another person knows.
  
  Anyway I based my statement on both people's (religion's) statement that there is only one true God.
  
  I can't say there are 5 Gods when people say their God (no s) is the right God and the other one is,
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  AKA Winstonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  O.K., thanks. That makes sense if you were talking about there being no difference when separating a single entity by varioius names.
  
  I get a little chafed by unwarranted assertions.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  _______________________
  That's what I was saying as in my other post a page or so back
  
  If they believe in God and that he is supreme, a name does not make him anymore or less the God he is.
  
  As I said, Juan is a Spanish name, and in English it's Don (I'm pretty sure) But he is the same person whatever you call him.
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  Baileybearposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  are you saying the Muslims, jews, christians etc all believe in the same god, yet disagree with each other?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ______________
  I am saying they all call the same God by a different name.
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  Baileybearposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  yet you all reject each others teachings about this same god
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ___________
  That's what I was saying. Maybe you should start reading from the beginning
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  Baileybearposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  just clarifying that's what you meant
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paradigmsearchposted 12 years ago
Let us start all over again.

Does anyone dispute that…
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Jeramiposted 12 years ago
(AKA Winston wrote ...

"If all of those that SAY that they are followers of Christ truly followed his teachings" ??? )

Jerami,

You have without knowing it hit on the prime problem of Christianity - no one knows what the actual teaching of Jesus were.

= - = - = -

Me It has always bothered me that after 3 1/2 years of teaching the disciples ; that they had so little to say about hid teachings
I actually think that there was much written concerning his teachings that were excluded from the canon.
And any sect that continued to believe outside the box (canon) were swiftly eradicated.
There is little wonder that very little proofs exist today.

===========================================
AKA Winston wrote
Jesus did not write down his teachings.
His contemporary followers were illiterate and could not and did not write down his teachings.
When the documents were finally written about 35-60 years after the death of Jesus, the originals have not survived and all we have left are copies of copies of copies of copies that have contradictions and errors between virtually all of them.

Now, if you want to accept the teachings of Jesus as portryaed in the bible are good teachings and worthy of being followed, that is well and good, and is what liberal Christians believe.

But when you start tyring to make Jesus into a god, then the whole house of cards falls apart as so much flim-flam.

= - = - = -

With the exception of Revelation; I think that all of the "Gospils" were written around 60 AD
This no one really knows or sure.
I think Jesus was the Messiah as foretold in the O.T. And shortly after his resurection he became Messiah the Prince.
========================================
Would any god allow his teachings to humanity to not survive intatct? The fact that there is no original bible is the best evidence there is that Jesus was not a god and had no father god to watch out for him.
= - = - = -

That would simply be your speculation.

I think that we have to understand the O.T. prophesy correctly before we can even begin to presume to know if it is within Gods plan for there to have been any origional writtings of the apostles to survive.
We really should try to remember that all of the O.T. prophesy was written to that Hebrew Nation that ceased to exist in 135 AD. As long as these writtings lasted that long, I would think that they served their purpose.
==============================================

AKA Winston ...Jesus, the human, may be worth following, though

- -

Any way you choose to reffer to him ?
Yep he is worthy to follow.
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Disappearingheadposted 12 years ago
No one is really free to believe what they want because we are all a product of the culture we are born into. If I lived in the middle east I would be preaching Islam. If in Tibet, I guess I would be a Buddhist.

I was not indoctrinated in the Church, but its values were taught in my schools as a child. I "became a Christian" when I was 15 as a result of being indoctrinated by a friend who had been indoctrinated since birth. Indoctrination is a true conclusion, as when all other material is excluded, then one only has what one is taught, and so that position is accepted without question.

I began on a journey 2 years ago to question everything I'd believed, and though I'm still arguing from the bible as my source, I began to see through many of the myths and false doctrines I'd accepted in 24 years of Church.

I am sad when I see the same old nonsense exposed by the many Christians in forumland, and they do God no favours.

On balance though, I sense that many are atheists because they threw out the baby with the bathwater. In seeing through the myths, they also threw God away Himself. That's sad too. Even now though they are also indoctrinated by atheism, as they reject out of hand any concept of God, and bow to the enlightened types of Richard Dawkins, without investigating themselves.

As the Christian is fearful of Islam and atheism, so the atheist is fearful of honestly objectively seeking to see if God can be proved to their satisfaction. To not believe in God is considered cool, wise and enlightened, and they do not wish to cast aside these Emperor's clothes.
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  dingdondingdonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have investigated plenty. I have read religious texts, and critical arguments against and for atheism. I have come to the conclusion that there is no God.
  
  And that conclusion is just as valid as yours, even though you may not like it.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This may be egregious, but what the heck...
  
  Seems, you have --like billions of believers and atheists --used precisely the same tools to come to two different opinions. Do you see the problem with that? I do and did --as Kevin did. The text can only provide you with ideology, same as laboratory can only provide you with limited experiments, based on the tools used.
  
  Perhaps, just perhaps, the theist and post-theist (atheist) might consider using different tools. Tools not designed by other "tools" in the "hope" of "finding" out. One can use a lathe --a tool-- to make a hammer. Someone else can use the same lathe to make a garden spade. Two tools, same mechanism.
  
  Try a new mechanism.
  
  James.
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Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago
Brenda, why is it you always run away when I challenge your beliefs?
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earnestshubposted 12 years ago
Well here's a post that needs no reply.

It wipes the floor with itself!

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ceciliabeltranposted 12 years ago
Ooh and also that dragons could have lived alongside humans in the form where they are just about to become birds in the way that the ceolacanth (fish with feet) exists today but in limited numbers when they were supposed to have been extinct because they have evolved into reptiles.

Evolution is not linear. a set of species that another set of species could have evolved from could live at the same time in the same era. the breaking away from common ancestor phenomenon. meaning, not all dinosaurs could have died in the last ice age. why else will there so much stories about dinosaur like creatures that used to eat cattle?
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  Baileybearposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  big imaginations. I wrote a hub about dragon mythology, including in the bible
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  ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ah not really, many scholars relate dragons to dinosaurs, it is not exactly new.
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  Baileybearposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  except people weren't around with dinosaurs. probably found bones though
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I" have been on HP"s for a while and this sounded like more of the same .... ??????????????????? Old ... !!! Same OLD !
  
  When is peope going to get serious ??????????????????????????????
  
  ??????????????????? Same OLD !!
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  Baileybearposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  are you high or something?
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Just the oposit.
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  Baileybearposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  are you drunk or on drugs or something? You're being really sloppy in your posts
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nope and nope !
  
  I guess that I'm tired of being where I'm at, and don't see where I'm suposed to go next.
  
  I'm confused!
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  Baileybearposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  are you in trouble? Do you need to talk to someone? Your wife?
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  thanks for your worries!
  
  I am where I am suposed to be I Guess.
  
  We are all suposed to get there ("I think")
  
  Everything is suposed to work out for the best ... ? ...
  
  Whether we like it ot not.
  
  IT's all good.
  
  was jusr saying good night Yawl
  
  I was here said what I had to say .
  
  Aint' got anything else to say .....
  
  Ain't goina keep saying the same thing forever.
  
  If I had any truth to say ???
  
  It has been said.
  
  Love all A yawl.
  
  good night.
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  Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Really? I have found that most scholars relate dragons to folklore and myth and dinosaurs to archaeology and evolution.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  sure, like you would know anything about it.
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I would like to read that, in fact I will.
  
  Silly me!
  
  I have read it before, great graphics by the way!
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paradigmsearchposted 12 years ago
Well, I guess it is time for me to wander here.
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paradigmsearchposted 12 years ago
Who wants to fxk with me first?
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yo do me first ! Then I'll fxk You
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  paradigmsearchposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This is your third messy post. Are you ok?
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Jeramiposted 12 years ago
Well there are going to be ("I hope") ; many more ...

But I think it is time to go to a difernt (?) audence
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pauld43posted 12 years ago
The most important thing is to seek the truth. Compare the Bible with other historical books of the time peroiod. Does history validate that there was a man named Jesus, is there historical accounts besides the Bible of His death and resurrection. What about the early followers of Jesus, are there accounts of their lives and deaths? According to many historical accounts, research for yourself, many early followers of Jesus died because they maintained that Jesus died and arose from the dead. When faced with horrific torture and iminent death they did not deny but choose torture and death to acquital and a few more years on the planet. Ask yourself this question, would you die for a lie or a fairytale? I wouldn't. Do the research, weigh it out and make an educated, informed decision before ruling out that Jesus was who He said He was, the Son of God.
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