Who is Imam Mahdi?
Who is Imam Mahdi, and what is his/her's significance with Jesus Christ and Christianity?
Is Islam and Christianity closely related, more than what Christians are taught to believe? I'm just curious as to how Muslims view Christians, and Jesus Christ. They must think Christ was a Messiah, and I wonder if they too believe that he will return to earth in the end times.
I noticed that 17 months ago TMMason approached this very subject. I have to tell you, I'm extremely confused. This is new information for me, and I would like to have a better understanding of our roles together as one religion united under God. http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/31336
1.Iman Mahdi means the leader who has been guided by the Creator God.
2.In this sense all the prophets messenger were the Imam Mahdi of their era; Moses and Jesus including.
3.Jesus did not die on the Cross; he survived and died later at the age of 120 years; so he cannot come again in this world.
4.A follower of Muhmmad by the smymbolic name of Jesus will come to renew all the religions and to unite them.
5.Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the Imam Mahdi and the Promised Messiah of this era; as I believe it.
No disrespect to others intended.The only way Islam could discredit Christianity is tell the world that Jesus did not die. But, can they tell us us where His grave is?
Victor, essentially Islam and Christianity are religions from the one true God. So I believe that the correct way to think about this not to pit them against one another.
Islam does not seek Christianity's destruction but in many ways it compliments Christianity. The Quran is the only book outside of the Gospels that affirms Jesus;s (pbuh) virgin birth, Mary's (pbuh) truthfulness. However, it does challenge the Christian view that Jesus (pbuh) would have died an accursed and humiliating death on the cross at the hands of his oppressors. He survived the crucifixion. Also, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) used the term of "Second Coming of Messiah, The Son of Mary" for the latter-days messiah, he did not say he himself was coming back-- so obviously he was not competing with Jesus (pbuh). He told us that Jesus (pbuh) lived to be an old man till the age of 120. Interestingly, St. Irenaeus De Lyon (the revered 1st century apologist) also reported a tradition in his book "Against Heresies" that Jesus travelled to Asia and lived to be an old man (even though he did not believe it himself).
Jesus's (pbuh) grave was discovered about a hundred years ago in the Kanyar District of Kashmir, India. It is known as The Roza Bal Shire. He is buried there as Yuz Asaf (the leader of the healed). There is a wealth of esoteric research done on the subject for 100 years now. Esoteric researchers have been trying to get scientific DNA testing but are being opposed by local hardline religious groups.
The development of this theory of Jesus's (pbuh) survival from the crucifixion and his travel to India to seek out the lost tribes of the Israelites and complete his mission and the delivery of his message as Messiah to the Hebrews was we believe first consolidated by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (pbuh) who we believe to be the Imam Mahdi (Guided Leader) and the symbolic Second Coming of Christ according to the prophecies of Prophets Muhammad (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh). If you'd like more information below is a Hub on the subject . . .
http://hub.me/afDeQ
Peace and Blessings!
We are not... that is a great lie.
Islam is not here to unite with Christianity and Judaism... it is here to obliterate them and impose Islam as the one true religion, period.
The qu'ran specifically states the sole pupose of the Qu'ran is to correct the corrupted Torah and Ingeel, old and new testament.
They have no intention of uniting and could not if they wanted to. The true extremists in Islam are people like Paas and his heritical sect, which a true muslim would stone or behead him for on the spot.
Islam is in complete and total contridiction to Judaism and Christianity. That is clearly evident by the natures of the differing authors... allah -Vs- YHWH.
lets look at their version of Christ, Isa,...
http://answering-islam.org/authors/duri … jesus.html
And the Mahdi...
http://answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/F … _mahdi.htm
If you have any questions just ask. But this site is very thorough in their studies and representation of true Islam.
Do not be fooled... the "Extremists", are the true followers of Islam. They, the Mujihadeen are the best of all those who submit to allah. And that is straight from the mouth of Momo. He was asked once what was a higher honnor to allah, or equal to, that of being a warrior for Islamic Jihad... momo said there was no such thing.
If you want a good thorough read on Islamic and Christian Eschatology. I would suggest Joel Richardsons, "AntiChrist, Islams long awaited messiah", and his other works on the subject.
And the fact is their Christ, Isa, comes to destroy all the Jews and Christians, ie; shatter the crosses and slaughter the swine..", and take Jerusalem, he will lead the Islamic Armies against us.
So don't fall for the BS the Muslims sling about it being the same Jesus as we await.I think there are some confusing information about Imam Mahdi and Jesus (Issa) peace be upon him.
Imam Mahdi will lead the muslim nation against the Dajjal (The Deceiver) who will persecute each and every human being on Earth when his time comes. Dajjal is the one eyed devil (666) who will have many God like powers and he will have a mark on his forehead k f r which stands for KAFIR in Islam. Kafir essentially means Non-Muslim. Imam Mahdi will lead the war for muslims. Imam Mahdi is NOT A PROPHET of any kind.
Jesus (Issa as he is called in Islam) will come down to earth from the top of Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem and the Dajjal will die just by the site of Issa. Then the Yajuj and Majuj (Gog and Magog) will wreak havoc on earth killing people left right and centre and will be industructible by human power or Issa. Issa will pray to Allah (God) to kill the Yajuj and Majuj and they will die leaving a very bad stench all over earth. After that the whole world will be cleansed of the bad stench and the earth will become a very beautiful and peaceful place with everyone living in harmony as Muslims. No non muslims will be alive, everyone on earth will be muslims.
As this calamity befalls everyone on earth, muslims and non muslims, the non muslims will realise that Islam is the true religion but it will be too late.
After forty years on earth, Issa will die and then the end of the world will begin as there will be no more muslims left.
Check out genuine muslim websites on Google to find more info on this.Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908 is the Imam Mahdi and the Promised Messiah of End Times.
RegardsHundred years passed, still no end time!!!
Rashad Khalifa is the Promised Messiah.The final seventh millennium or epoch that begins with the advent of the Promised Messiah (peace be on him) is expected to last 1,000 years (as much as we can understand). The advent of the Promised Messiah (pbuh) according to Prophet Muhammad was to be approximately thirteen centuries after him, just like the Jesus Christ (pbuh) came 13 centuries after Prophet Moses (pbuh)-- which is approximately 100 years ago.
Below is the case for Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (pbuh) as the Promised Messiah and Mahdi. What is your case for Rashid Khalifa?
http://hub.me/afrVO
http://hub.me/afh6N"he advent of the Promised Messiah (pbuh) according to Prophet Muhammad was to be approximately thirteen centuries after him, just like the Jesus Christ (pbuh) came 13 centuries after Prophet Moses (pbuh)-- which is approximately 100 years ago"
If thirteen centuries had to pass, Muhammad couldn't be a prophet (only 600 years between him and jesus), so your argument is wrong.
The end time is near.If I am following your logic correctly, are you saying that since there are 600 years between Prophets Jesus (pbuh) and Muhmmad (pbuh), then there should be only another 600 between Muhammad (pbuh) and the Promised Messiah (pbuh)? And since that number is more like 1,300 rather than 600, therefore my argument is wrong?
Not sure how that fits the case for Rashid Khalifa, but anyway let me know if I am following you right here.That is what you said, there should be some numerology between the prophets. You said there should be 1300 years and what I said is, if that was correct Jesus/Muhammad cold not be prophet (according to your calculation of 1300 years) as only 600 years passed between Jesus and Muhammad.
The promised Messiah comes at the end times not hundred years before that, so Rashid Khalifa. If hundred years before can be taken as end times, then Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí is the promised one.I never said that there has to be some law of numerology in the time period between prophets. What I have said is that there was a period of 13 centuries between Prophet Moses (pbuh), the founder of Judaism, and Jesus Christ (pbuh) the Messiah in Moses's (pbuh) following. Similarly, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has said, "Surely things will happen to my followers as did to the Jews . . ."-- the timing he gave for the beginning of the 10 major signs initiating in advent of Messiah and Anti-Christ is also 13 centuries. So I have spoken to that specific parallel, not any heavenly law of time-lapse between Prophets. Several Medieval Islamic scholars have commented per their analysis of prophecies that the Promised One would appear at the beginning of the 14th century after Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
The end-times is a broad subject and a broad period. Per Islamic and Biblical prophecies the sign that marks the beginning would be the scientific revolution about 100 years ago with lots of new inventions all happening at the same time.
You are free to believe in Rashid Khalifa, Bahaullah or whoever. I only advise people to study hard and thoroughly, pray deeply and be patient. Rashid Khalifa's claim to fame was a system of numerology he discovered in the Quran based on the number 19, he even advocated the removal of one surah because it did not follow the system. He claimed prophethood, started an organization called "The Submitters" and was eventually shot dead by someone never apprehended. Mirza Husayn Ali or Bahaullah as he is better known was the heir apparent to the movement started Muhammad Ali Shirazi (The Bab) in Iran almost 200 years ago. The Bab was arrested and executed by the Shia government. Bahaullah and the rest of the leadership of the movement then decided to announce the abrogation of the Quran and Islam to start their own religion known as Bahai, so as to dissolve their conflict with the clergy. This is known as The Bahasht conference and Bahaullah even mentions this in his book Kitab-e-Iqtidaar. This does not sound like the act of a genuine religious movement.
By contrast, The Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam has been under threat of destruction and extinction by scholars and governments since day 1. And many are even killed today just for their beliefs. But never has the leadership or the followers ever stepped back or aside and in fact its growth and progress has been unstoppable by any world power-- this is per the prophecy God Almighty to Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (pbuh), the Promised Messiah and Mahdi. As Jesus Christ (pbuh) used to say, "accept it if you will, reject it if you will".Such parallels has nothing to do with reality, it is simply a parallel that is made up to give legitimacy. There were many prophets before as per bible without any parallel. You are not even considering the most important one -Abraham.
End times mean end of times, death of earth. Christians and muslims were predicting end times for the last 2000years and was postponing it as end time never appeared. If end times happen in this generation Khalifa is the messiah, if not no. Mirza Gulam or Bahaullah are not messiahs as nothing happened to the world neither in their generation nor the next nor the next.
Jesus or Muhammad both have "completed", "superseded" or "abrogated" the old religions and claimed them as either false or misguided, nothing new here.
If tenacity and growth is any indicator then Joseph Smith and Mormonism is the true one.At the risk of repeating myself-- the parallel is specific to the prophecy of "second coming of Jesus Christ (pbuh)", not prophets in general.
End times is more complex and broader than the popular one-generation Hollywood blockbuster notion that most people hold. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (pbuh) himself gave a prophecy of 300 years for his movement to rise to prominence. In the analysis of some experts, like Richard Perry, the final epoch of humanity per prophecy extends to up to 1,000 years. Many aspects of end-times are not fully understood and yes people have been predicting it being around the corner for centuries. But, the life style transformations such as in transportation and communication as well as other aspects have never been seen before. They may well be aligned to the Daniel 12:4 prophecy of "knowledge shall be increased" as a sign of end-times.
And again at the risk of repeating myself, "accept it if you will, reject it if you will".
Rashid Khalifa, Bahaullah, Bab, Elijah Muhammad, Joseph Smith, David Branham or whoever-- your choice.At the risk of repeating myself--That is an artificial parallel and not only Mirza Gulam, Baha ullah also fill that parallel. Again no one knows the time period of Moses.
That is a simple redefinition of end times. End times according to bible and quran is the end of humanity on this earth. And the redefinition is forced because of the failure of approach of end times.
I do not accept any of the false prophets. They are all sent by satan.Fair enough, the parallel is real for me and not for you. There were many claimants and religious movements at the end of the 19th century so you can argue any number of them fit the timing in the parallel. That is why one would dig deeper and study the details. Like I said before, Bahaullah and the Babis (as they were known at the time) when faced with opposition from the Islamic Shia clergy abrogated their claim on the religion of Islam. Prophets Jesus (pbuh) and Ahmad (pbuh) did not.
You are making some very questionable statements. The case for the historical timing of Moses (pbuh) is strong given the Egyptian records and Jews timing for the Torah. The Jews have always been meticulous record keepers. The legendary Jewish historian Josephus Flavius wrote the "Antiquities" during the times of Jesus (pbuh) to record the first 1,000 years of the history of Judaism. What is your argument for this historicity to be weak? Please give reference and clear, solid points.
Also please provide references from Quran and Bible where it clearly provides this definition that end-times is simply the moment of humanity perishing on earth and no elongated period of a final good vs. evil battle of Armageddon etc.
Of course one should not accept false prophets and they would be from Satan. From your earlier posts you seem to give the impression that you believed in Rashid Khalifa.But Muhammad did.
Jesus did or did not is a matter of controversy.
If you have any such materials it will be helpful if you can tell me where to get it. After pouring over books for years, the only mention of Israel before Omri in Egyptian records I got is the Mernepthe Steele which do not mention any Moses. The meticulous Jewish records are all after 7th century.
Jospehus quoted from Manetho(3 BC) (a non extant work) which mention about a slave/priest/usurper who joined the Hyskos which ruled Egypt which scholars agree that it was not about Moses. Again what value Josephus history got when he was writing it near the end of first century, whose reference also wrote from later period? By that time even the greek legends were accepted as truths.
I won't be able to quote the whole book of Revelation, it is clearly stated there in para after para.
Quran it is less, more in hadiths.
Some of the verses from quran are...
"When the horn is blown once. The earth and the mountains will be carried off and crushed; utterly crushed. That is the day when the inevitable event will come to pass" 69:13-15
"The day will come when this earth will be substituted with a new earth, and also the heavens, and everyone will be brought before GOD, the One, the Supreme" 14:48
Sorry for that, What I was trying to say that the newest Messiah is Rashid Khalifa and he could be considered true (as per bible and quran) if the end of world happened now. And the possibility is more as I foresee the end of the world in a decade or two.According to the Quran and Sunnah the Mahdi will have the same name as Muhammad (peace be upon him). No one knows when he will come, but before he comes we will all witness some major signs that will take place one after another like pearls falling from a string.
One of the most obvious signs will be that there will be a king who will hear of Mahdi's appearance and he will send a massive army to kill him. The whole army will be swallowed up by the earth.
This hasn't happened yet so this Rashid Khalifa guy and the other guy are not the Mahdi. There are yet many minor signs which haven't even come close to taking place so anyone you guys have mentioned are not the Khalifa.
Not a soul knows who the Mahdi is. He doesn't even know himself. Only Allah knows so i don't think it's right to say it's Rashid Khalifa or whoever until we find out for sure.That will never happen again. Based on the times they could have thought about nothing but a king. Now there can never be a king powerful enough to rule the world. And even if there comes one he won't be sending soldiers but missiles and bombs and drones.
And the true God is not a cruel insecure tyrant who wants to sent majority of his creation to annihilation just because they didn't know about him nor because they didn't believe humans who claimed to be from him. He do not want worship nor he care whether anyone is fearful and obedient to him and hail him always, for the specific reason that hieis not an emotional tyrant, he is god not a human.
You can believe any human who claim to be from god and reject all the others but that is merely your partiality, will not make it true. God do not sent a few people and hide from the rest - he is impartial by the very definition.
@BuddiNsense:
I stand corrected that Egyptian records do not mention Moses (pbuh). The earliest non-scriptural records, it appears, is during Roman-Hellenistic period around 300 BCE. Historical dating of the Exodus/Duetronomy scriptures is around 600 BCE which should be treated as part of historical record. Jewish scholars date Moses (pbuh) to the 1600 - 1300 BCE period. One rationale why Moses (pbuh) may not appear in Egyptology is that the Pharaohs may not have wanted to record a successful rebellion and Exodus. My point in referencing Josephus was that he, as far as I know, was writing the first 1,000 years of Jewish history dating Moses (pbuh) to be at the beginning of that period. Esoteric research-scholar Holger Kirsten argues for the veracity of Moses (pbuh) since many aspects and accounts of his life found in Biblical & Quranic scriptures is consistent with what is known about that time i.e. snake handling of Egyptian Cobras making them look stiff like sticks and the use of gunpowder/incendiary materials.
As for end-times accounts of The Holy Quran we can pretty much consolidate the subject in Surah 81 (Al-Takwir) which also include verses very similar to the one that you have quoted. While many verses in this Surah speak of a cosmological and physical wrapping-up so to speak, verse 4 says "And when the she-camels, then months pregnant, will be abandoned". This verse would be referring to the transportation systems transformation that is also mentioned in verse 16:8 (that such inventions are to occur of which there was no knowledge at the time), and then also with verses 56 73:75 which speaks of fire as a benefit for those who travel. This agrees with a Hadith prophecy of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that the Anti-Christ will ride on a donkey that eats fire (meaning new fire-driven modes of transportation). The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said that these major signs will begin after a period of 13 centuries-- this reference can be found in the major Hadith works mostly in sections called "Bab-ul-Ayaat" (The Signs).
If you have read The Book of Revelations then the case would be even easier, as it is clearly speaking to a course of events (i.e. Mystery Babylon The Great & The Fourth Beast Kingdom) that is broader than a final cosmological and physical end to the universe as we know it. The same can be consolidated from Surah Al-Takwir.
Your assertion that someone who makes the claim while such a cosmological end would occur in a short span of time (i.e. Rashid Khalifa as he may be the most recent one to have made the claim) is very narrow and single-dimensional, and also disagreeable. Any end-times Messiah should appear at a time where people actually have a chance to follow him and through the extent of the period of the Anti-Christ or Dajjal.I said the same, no records. Josephus was merely copying from Manetho who wrote about some Osaresph not moses. He wrote in first century AD so not a credible source just like Plutarch is not a credible source for Thesus.
It is not simply a lack of Egyptian records, researches indicate that there was no unified exodus and Israel started as coalition of local Canaan people. Deuteronomy was also a late source which was made for Josea. There was no unified Jewish religion then. All the historical books from that era, kings and chronicles are collected from folk tales from the point of view of an Yahweist priest. Not only the stories as depicted in bible impossible it is merely a retelling of ancient legends of many people.
The supposed century of Moses - 13th is when the land was under the control of either the Egyptians or Hittites. In fact the supposed Pharaoh, Ramses II had a war with Hittites and both shared a border after it by the end of 13th century.
It was a time of motifs like fire spitting animals and many eyed many winged monsters so it was no prediction of future.
So it is merely creative re-interpretation of things that didn't happened. As per the literal interpretation the Messiah comes everything is destroyed, a new earth forms, there is no mention that it takes place over centuries.
Again according to revelation the people who follow him recognize him immediately and follow him and they are "virgins" and the number is also specified.
@ BuddiNsense post 11/13/14
I believe the case for historicity of the Hebrews in ancient Egypt is strong. Manetho himself reported, "people of a pleasant culture appeared unexpectedly from the east, boldly entered our country and forcibly took possession of it, without encountering any serious resistance". Murals in Egyptian burial chambers clearly depict these conquerers as having a light skin coloration. Genesis 29 speaks of how Abraham's (the patriarch of the Hebrews) grandson Jacob journeyed to his uncle Laban in the land of the 'Sons of the East'. As the Biblical accounts go, Jacob's twelve sons were eventually lured to Egypt beset by the famine where their brother Joseph had ascended to second-in-command to Pharaoh. The brother (forming the 12 tribes) along with Jacob would eventually settle in an area called Goshen- a semitic settlement in the northern Nile-delta dating from that era that has been well documented. The description 'Hebrew' was thus originally applied not to a nation or ethnic people, but to persons of no fixed abode whose fate was to serve the Egyptians as a form of cheap labor. The detailed accounts in Exodus 1:11 - in which the ancestors of the Israelites are delegated for the construction of the towns of Pithom and Ramses - strong suggest that Ramses II (1290 - 24 BC) was the oppressive Pharaoh responsible. (source: "Jesus Lived in India", by Holger Kirsten Chp 3 p.38 - Moses and The Children of God).
So the Hebrews were in Egypt and then they were not. My belief is that Moses (pbuh) was real and he did lead the Hebrews out of Egypt and re-consolidated the tribes in Canaan. There may well be academic research to the contrary but for me the theory that this is all bogus is not credible. Also, for many reaching the truth is not solely dependent on the dimension of historicity. Take the case of Egyptologist Dr. Maurice Bucaille who converted to Islam after his esoteric scrutiny of the surviving mummies and the confirmation of prophecy of The Holy Quran, which for many of us validates the personage of Moses (pbuh) and the event of the Exodus.
More than a century has passed since the "camel has been abandoned" and probably a couple of centuries since "books being spread broad". I gave you perspective from Surah Al-Takwir (#81) from Holy Quran and also other verses which you chose to entirely ignore, perhaps with good reason. It is a "fire-eating" donkey, not "fire-spitting". Eating fire, as opposed to the fairy tales of fire-spitting dragons, has entirely different context-- you eat something to burn fuel and create energy. The hadith of the Dajjal's fie-eating donkey are unbelievably detailed-- they speak of people traveling in the donkey in lit, insulated and comfortable compartments, the donkey leaping from east to west, jumping above the clouds and covering distances of months in hours or in one day. It says the Donkey will also move on water and not sink below its knees carrying mountains of food between nations. This is an entirely different league than fire-spitting dragons. These references can be found in the Hadith compilations known as Nuzhatul Majalis, Kunzul Amal and Biharul Anwar.
Take Matthew 24, it speaks of the time of the coming of the Messiah-- when this Gospel will be preached the world over, wars and rumors of wars, nation rising up against nation, false prophets misleading many, iniquity abound. Take the Daniel 12:4 where it says that prophecy is sealed till the time of end when "knowledge shall increase and many shall run to and fro" (the scientific revolution and new global mobility). All this is pointing to the end of the 19th century. A century and a quarter has already passed. In verses 35 & 36 of Matthew 24, Jesus (pbuh) does speak of the "passing of Heaven and Earth of which only the Lord knows of the hour". This is at the end of the course.
If your Messiah is someone who appears merely to tell us that the final flash of light is upon us, then so be it your lot.Manetho is from 3rd century BC, 10 centuries later and the people he describes is Hyskos. Ramses II had a war with Hittites by the end of 13th century where the border was decided between their respective land, who was followed by Mernepth of Mernepthe Steele. All these time(13th century) the land was under Egyptian control. So that cannot be the time of Moses.
If Moses was real he could not be from the 13th century is the point here. The people may be the Hyskos as pointed out by Manetho or the Habiru (from whom the term Hebrew originated probably), but both were there before 14th century. Israel as a nation started only by 10th century. Moses is the law giver, so either he belonged to the 15th century or very later near the formation of the nation of Israel - 11th or 10th century.
All you did is creatively reinterpreting the embarrassing terms. Say the verse "And when the she-camels, then months pregnant, will be abandoned" can mean nothing else but their mode of transport which was mostly Camel will be abandoned. He could never foresee the technological advances that would come in the future. Fire eating or spitting is again another reinterpretation based on the coal eating trains of 20th century. Now a days there is no vehicle that eat fire. And only Surah 81 has any reference to end times. Hadiths, you were earlier asking about Quran only, nothing about hadith.
Gospel specifically said generation will not pass before the end. But the gospel means gospel of Jesus, not gospel of the coming messiah. And now the gospel has reached the maximum extent with the help of net and tv.
Knowledge shall increase do not point any specific century, the revolution of it started from 16th. But if it mean accessibility, that happened only in this century. So Daniel gain is your reinterpretation to fit your notion. Daniel also said that the messiah will be killed and immediately after that there will be a deluge, where is the deluge?
I was stating what is written in Quran and Bible, you want to reinterpret it so that it can fit your messiah notion. According to both Quran and bible( especially), end times happen within a generation of the messiah. Are you saying that these books are wrong?
Why cannot a time of Egyptian control be a time of Moses (pbuh)? Moses did not wrest control of Egypt, he led an exodus out of Egypt.
The Hebrews existed in Egypt before Moses (pbuh) and the nation of Israel may well have fully consolidated around 11th century after Moses (pbuh) would have laid the foundation for it. Why does that serve any compulsion to date Moses (pbuh) to any of those times? The time-lapse between Moses (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh) with parallel to Muhammad (pbuh) and Ahmad (pbuh) is not the only dimension to the parallel. There are many but just to give you a few main ones:
- Both the Jews and Muslims rejected the Messiahs based on misinterpretations of prophecies that the Messiah will usher an earthly kingdom for them when there will be a dominion of peace and absolute justice. These prophecies are literally the same.
- Terribly violent fanatical factions rose in the Jews of Jesus's (pbuh) time and what we are seeing with militant extremism based on religious ideology in the so-called Islamic world today. The band of Zealots who rose in Jesus's (pbuh) time emphasized in the oneness of God and to cleansing the holy land of anyone who refused to serve the one true God. They murdered even other Jews who were not 'true' according to them. The Wahabbis who now share power with the Sauds in Arabia rose with the exact same notion of the oneness of God and have been funding and fueling murderous religious extremism ever since they have been able not sparing other Muslims with their notion of religious cleansing.
- Both the Messiah, Jesus (pbuh) and Ahmad (pbuh) admonished the clergy and these factions to lay down the sword and that their ideologies and practices were corrupt. Both clergies attempted to kill the Messiahs and malign them with supposed accursed deaths. They both failed. Jesus (pbuh) did not die on the cross. There is a lot of esoteric research today that is still developing seeded by Ghulam Ahmad (pbuh) and according to one prophecy of Muhammad (pbuh) the Mahdi will break the cross-- we take it to mean that he will relieve the false popular beliefs about the death of the Messiah Jesus on the cross.
Feel free to interpret the 'abounding' of the camel as you will, according to me there is only one meaning that can take hold and generate a popular notion. The Hadith compliment the Quranic verses. The Quran mentions fire as a benefit to those who travel and says that modes of transportation will be transformed. Feel free to reject the Hadith if you will. The overwhelming fuel systems in transportation today are incendiary-- from the combustion engine in cars to jet turbines.
The Messiah for this age has been termed as the 'Second Coming of Jesus'. Muhammad (pbuh) frequently used the terms "Jesus, Son of Mary" for the one to come. He meant it allegorically as a sign. The prophecies in the Gospels are also believed to have a dual pointer. Many have commented that one fulfillment was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD when Jesus (pbuh) is believed to have returned there to witness it (Matthew 16:28 & John 21:22). This, I would say, also re-affirms the parallel although a similar cataclysmic event has not yet come to pass in the contemporary Islamic world, but some eschatologists believe it probably will.
The full sentence is "knowledge will increase and many shall run to and fro". If you go all through history-- despite many scientific wonders and accomplishments since the beginning -- the animal modes of transportation never changed. The only point at which transportation transforms is the end of the 19th century.
In Biblical terms, "immediately" has a cosmic sense to it. It can span a generation, sometimes more. May believe the destruction in 70 AD was one deluge, may be there's another one coming. I have already explained the generation thing. In one aspect there was the fulfillment in 70 AD when some in that generation had not passed. And there is probably a parallel to it in the future as is apparent by consolidating the prophecies.
Haven't you heard? History repeats itself.An exodus from Washington to New Jersey, cannot be termed as exodus out of America. The land was under Egyptian control in 13th century, so there was no exodus out of Egypt in 13th century. Hyskos as Manetho pointed out may be the Israel, then that was in 15th and hence Moses was from 15th or Israel consolidated in 10th century hence Moses was from 11th as laws cannot be enacted for many tribes with no common feeling.
The parallel between Moses and Jesus is same as the parallel between Sargon of Akkad and Moses as myths accumulate on famous people.
Jesus did die on cross, no later books cannot reject the fact. The earliest, Paul's and gospels did affirm it.
The clergy rejected Jesus and Muhammad for the same reason you are rejecting Baha Ullah or Rashid Kallifa. And Zealots primarily are freedom fighters. Different people tried different tactics to get freedom., so you cannot equate Zealots to Wahhabi.
You were one who insisted on Quran, now that quran do not support your views you have turned to hadiths. The only incendiary locomotive was the coal train. No modern vehicle eat fire, they eat gasoline or solar energy or ethanol. And there is no indication that the cataclysimic events take place over centuaries neither in Quran or Bible.
Knowledge does not mean transport. Now even if we mean transport
1783 First practical steamboat demonstrated by Marquis Claude Francois de Jouffroy d'Abbans - a paddle wheel steamboat
1783 The Montgolfier brothers invent the first hot air balloons
1787 Steamboat invented
1769 First self-propelled road vehicle invented by Nicolas Joseph Cugnot
1790 Modern bicycles invented
1801 Richard Trevithick invented the first steam powered locomotive (designed for roads)
1807 Isaac de Rivas makes a hydrogen gas powered vehicle - first with internal combustion power - however, very unsuccessful design
1807 First steamboat with regular passenger service - inventor Robert Fulton's Clermont
1814 George Stephenson invents the first practical steam powered railroad locomotive
1862 Jean Lenoir makes a gasoline engine automobile
1867 First motorcycle invented
1868 George Westinghouse invents the compressed air locomotive brake - enabled trains to be stopped with fail-safe accuracy
1871 First cable car invented
1885 Karl Benz builds the world's first practical automobile to be powered by an internal combustion engine
1899 Ferdinand von Zeppelin invents the first successful dirigible - the Zeppelin
The year 1886 is regarded as the birth year of the modern car. In that year, German inventor Karl Benz built the Benz Patent-Motorwagen.
Cars did not become widely available until the early 20th century
Nothing to do with 19th century. Invented in 18th and became wide spread in 20th.
Jesus said this generation and as generations passed christians struggled to explain "this", now I am reminded of the same ridiculous arguments.
70 AD, that generation has not passed or just passing, just 37 years. How many years has passed since Ahmad?
Whether the 12th century or the 14th century for Moses(pbuh) is not a deal-breaker for me and I would imagine for most people. History itself does not claim precision and admits to some speculation around when things may have occurred. Very surprised to hear mention of Sargon of Akkad in this discussion as I do not know of any references or perspective of him as a Hebrew prophet—highly irrelevant. And of course, you give no perspective or detail on how this parallel of Sargon and Moses can be related to Moses and Jesus.
----------------------------------------------------------------
And again, you give a singular highly subjective statement that Paul’s Epistles and the early Gospels bear the truth and contemporary esoteric research does not. Allow me to elaborate. The Gospels do bear support that Jesus (pbuh) survived the crucifixion. The Gospels state that Pilate did not desire Jesus’s crucifixion, his wife warned him against it. Jesus (pbuh) spent just a few hours on the cross, his legs were not broken and when they took him down they tended him with Aloe and Myrrh healing herbs. Pilate breaks protocol to let Joseph of Arimathea assume control of Jesus’s body. Jesus makes several appearances after the crucifixion when St. Thomas examines his wounds and he asks for fish and bread even emphasizing that a ghost does not do such things. He travels to Galilee and asks to meet his disciples there.
The version of the Gospels you are reading today was canonized by The Council of Nicaea 300 years after Jesus (pbuh) while rival gospels were violently suppressed. This Man-God version suited the Roman masters and Emperor Constantine’s mythological concepts as crafted by the self-proclaimed so-called Apostle Paul who himself proselytized to Greek gentiles attuned to Man-Gods while he conflicted with the authentic Apostolic council in Jerusalem led by St. James and stayed away from Jerusalem.
As opposed to this mythological graft, Hazrat Ahmad (pbuh)’s analysis offers multi-dimensional support from The Gospels, Quran, Hadith, Persian historical books, Hindu scripture, Buddhist scriptures, Medical records referencing the “Ointment of Jesus” used to heal his crucifixion wounds, and also genealogical analysis proving the lost tribes of the Israelites were in South East Asia and also via extant traditions in these peoples today. It is fully rational and agrees with the laws of physics and life as they are known and consistent with traditions of other prophets or men of God. The Quran also states that Jesus was not killed or crucified by his enemies but he only appeared as such. They had remained in a state of doubt about it and were never certain. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said that Jesus had in fact lived up to the age of 120 and even the revered first century bishop St. Irenee of Lyon in his book “Against Heresies” reports on a tradition that Jesus lived to age 100 in Asia. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said that The Mahdi will break the cross. And given how spectacularly his prophecies are being fulfilled today, I claim that it is only a matter of time before this one comes to pass despite grave opposition from the Christian and Muslim clergies both gazing at the sky for Jesus and wanting nothing to do with all the evidence coming out of Kashmir in India today.
---------------------------------------------------------
The Quran absolutely supports my views. The original contention between us was that does the Quran support a definition of end-times that extends beyond a cataclysmic end to the physical universe. And by quoting verses in Surah 81 that exist side by side with other verses stating the cataclysmic such as “camels being abandoned” and “books being spread broad” proves my point as such things cannot unfold while galaxies may be smashing into each other. No Hadiths required.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Like I said before, for most of us 18th, 19th or 20th century technical injunctions are not the answer. All one needs to know is that a sign of transformation of fire driving transportation was given, and it happened roughly in the time frame that was given. Sorry for all the trouble you took to line up tha t timeline of modern transportation inventions but I am thankful too—I think it supports the premise rather than detract from it. It is all very much in the same ballpark.
--------------------------------------------------
Explaining “this generation” is a struggle I would agree but its only one verse and the explanation given for it is fairly admissible. After all, the destruction of Jerusalem with sheer prejudice in 70 AD is nothing short of cataclysmic and according to Jesus’s own prophecy about the destruction of the temple as well as Yahweh’s warning to the Hebrews i.e. Leviticus 26.
It has been a little over a hundred years since demise of Ahmad (pbuh) which is like 1/10th of a day in Quranic and Biblical terms. Chess game in the Middle East today very ugly, looks like only going to get uglier. Stay tuned.But it will change the artificial parallel you constructed. If history cannot be believed what else can be believed, a book written 4 centuries later that contain obvious falsehoods?
The hero hunted as a child and escaping is a common motif of ancient myths.You might have heard that Egyptians tried to kill Moses and how he was abandoned on the river. That was from Sargon, exact story. Similar motif is seen with Cyrus and Jesus. Similar the parallel between Moses and Jesus.
----------------------------------------------------------------
As opposed to "esoteric" research proper research give great value to contemporary books rather than books written by later authors. Considering Jesus quran or Ahamd or Nicea 300 years is no authority compared to Mark and Paul. Both clearly states that Jesus died. In case of Paul he never said he saw live Jesus and Mark ends with Jesus death and the present ending added very later.
And Mark is the oldest Gospel available. All surviving gospels (like Thomas or Baranabas), canonical or not, belongs to a later period. All the gospels clearly state that Jesus died. Some say he resurrected but that was added later, most of it is nothing less than hallucinations and they vary very much in details. The lost tribes of Jews, there was no lost tribes. Jews where indigenous to east and west. The jews of Arabia were not jews from Israel but was local people converted.
---------------------------------------------------------
Here I mixed up. I confused bible and quran. Bible clearly state that first anti christ comes and rule for 7 years and then jesus comes and bind satan and all the righteous people along with jesus will rule for 1000 years. There is no Mehadi.
Quran states no Mehdi nor second coming.
Surah 81
When the sun is wrapped up [in darkness]
And when the stars fall, dispersing,
And when the mountains are removed
And when full-term she-camels are neglected
So the camels have nothing to do with what you stated. It only means the earth is going to be destroyed and people will neglect even theior beloved camels. The other verses in quran are also similar.
About Dajjal and donkey the earlier hadiths says only about a white donkey. Only hadiths written centuries later were embellished with fire eating donkey that traverse through water, air and land and emit smoke through front and back and has two ears, giant fire-breathing donkey that has the space of a day and nights'
journey between its legs, donkey would grow larger while traveling on the ocean, donkey would
have the moon on his forehead. Still there is no vehicle of that description. The Mahdi and Isa fight the dajjal together.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Your argument was that there is a knowledge revolution in 19th century, but it was not correct. It started in 16th century. Isaac Newton belonged to the 17th. Transportation started in 18th and became common in 20th. There is nothing specific to 19th century, except for the various Messianic claimants.
--------------------------------------------------
Many in this generation will not die is the statement and many didn't die. Bible clearly state that when jesus/messiah comes again he will rule for 1000years, starting from then. Anew earth is created the old one destroyed with stars and fire falling one earth.. Ahmad or any other dead messiah won't fit.'About Dajjal and donkey the earlier hadiths says only about a white donkey. Only hadiths written centuries later were embellished with fire eating donkey that traverse through water, air and land and emit smoke through front and back and has two ears, giant fire-breathing donkey that has the space of a day and nights'
journey between its legs, donkey would grow larger while traveling on the ocean, donkey would
have the moon on his forehead. Still there is no vehicle of that description. The Mahdi and Isa fight the dajjal together.'
I can't help but to ask you to give references about these fire eating/breathing white donkeys please. I have never heard or read about these in Islam.1. Jabir bin Abdullah (ra) narrated. That Prophet (saw) while discussing about Dajjal said: And his donkey on which he will arrive, will have a span of 40 hands between his two ears.[Musnad Ahmad].
2. Ibn Umr (ra) narrated: Prophet(saw) while discussing about Dajjal said: He will have a donkey whose span between two ears will be 40 Ba.[Kunzal Amaal].
3. Abu Hurrairah (ra) narrated that Prophet(saw) said: Dajjal will come on very white donkey.Whose span between two ears is 70 Ba. [Bihaqqi].
4. Prophet(saw) said, “The distance between the two ears of the Dajjal’s donkey will be 70 cubits” [Baihaqi, Meshkat].
5. Nawas(ra) bin So’man narrated that : Prophet(saw) said, “The Dajjal’s movement will be very fast. It will roam the sky like a cloud driven by wind.” [Muslim, Tirmizi]
None authentic or more correctly later.So where is the fire breathing and fire eating donkey that travels through water in that text?
I thought you only wanted to know about the donkey. Anyway Amer786 has already given the quotyes, I won't have to repeat?
The Donkey of Dajjal Hadith are well known in esoteric circles and they are well documented. These Hadith did not appear several hundred years later, it's just that the sources can only be traced back that far. You can research on internet and even youtube has several references. If you go to a eschatological scholar, they can give you background and detail on these. The argument that the chain of transmission on these hadith is weak is no longer valid because they prophecies have been fulfilled thereby confirming that the Hadiths are authentic. Below are the themes in the Hadith and the references for the source books.
1) This donkey would not merely be a personal mount of the anti-Christ, but would also be made freely available as a means of public transport. People will climb into his belly from the openings on his side provided specifically for this purpose. The belly will be well lighted within and equipped with comfortable seats. (Source: ALLAMAH MUHAMMAD BAQIR AL-MAJLISI. Biharul-Anwar, Babo 'Alamate Zohurihi Alaihis-salam min Al-sufyani wad-Dajjal)
2) This donkey will eat fire. This is a very brief yet very powerful statement in this prophecy. With the use of two symbols, the donkey and fire, we have a statement on contemporary transportation powered by incendiary fuel systems. This also agrees with verses 56:73-75 of The Holy Quran which mentions fire as a great source for those who travel. In another verse of the Holy Quran 16:8 the known modes of transportation at the time are given such as horses, mules, and yes—donkeys! And the verse states that such transportation-inventions will occur of which there was no knowledge at the time. This also agrees with a great prophecy of the Bible in Daniel 12:4 that knowledge shall be increased (referring to modern science which includes the wonder of modern transportation) and many will run to and fro (a reference to the frequency of modern travel). (Source: ALLAMAH MUHAMMAD BAQIR AL-MAJLISI. Biharul-Anwar, Babo 'Alamate Zohurihi Alaihis-salam min Al-sufyani wad-Dajjal)
3) The donkey would move at exceptionally fast speeds covering long distances in a matter of days or hours which ordinary animal mounts take months to cover. (Source: ABDUR-REHMAN AL-SAFURI. Nuzhat-ul-Majalis,vol:1 p.109. Maimaniyyah Press, Egypt.)
4) He would have regular stoppages on its way. At every stoppage the public would be invited to come and be seated before he resumes his journey and every departure would be loudly announced. (Source: ALLAMAH MUHAMMAD BAQIR AL-MAJLISI. Biharul-Anwar, Babo 'Alamate Zohurihi Alaihis-salam min Al-sufyani wad-Dajjal)
5) The passengers traveling in the belly would in no way be scorched by the fire he had eaten (indicating that the seating compartment in his belly would be fully insulated from the fire chamber). (Source: ALLAMAH MUHAMMAD BAQIR AL-MAJLISI. Biharul-Anwar, Babo 'Alamate Zohurihi Alaihis-salam min Al-sufyani wad-Dajjal)
6) The donkey’s leaps are described to cover distances between East and West. It is said that one foot of the beast will be in the East and the other in the West. (Source: ABDUR-REHMAN AL-SAFURI. Nuzhat-ul-Majalis,vol:1 p.109. Maimaniyyah Press, Egypt)
7) In the air he will move above the level of the clouds. (Source: ABDUR-REHMAN AL-SAFURI. Nuzhat-ul-Majalis,vol:1 p.109. Maimaniyyah Press, Egypt)
8) This donkey will also be able to travel by sea and move from continent to continent riding the ocean waves. (Source: ABDUR-REHMAN AL-SAFURI. Nuzhat-ul-Majalis,vol:1 p.109. Maimaniyyah Press, Egypt)
9) During his journey by sea he would somehow swell to a much larger size. Thus he will be able to transport mountains of food upon his back. Many a time he will be employed to deliver these enormous food supplies to such poor nations as abjectly bow to the will of the anti-Christ. (Source: Sahih Al-Bukhari. Kitab-ul-Fitan, Babo Zikrid-Dajjal)Details that was not present in earlier books but that suddenly prop up in later ones are called fabrications.
Even a cursory look at the so called prophesies show that these prophesies are not fulfilled.
There is no such thing as a donkey like this. Carriages, chariots and palanquins are common in that era and he could have used any of the above but said a living thing. Again note that dajjal will MOUNT but others are inside. There is no vehicle where driver sit above the vehicle.
No contemporary vehicle eat fire, rather they take fuel and is burned in small chamber. And now a day’s cars and trains run by electricity without any burning.
Quran 56: 72 -75
Is it you who produced its tree, or are We the producer?
We have made it a reminder and provision for the travelers,
So exalt the name of your Lord, the Most Great.
Then I swear by the setting of the stars,
Nothing like what you stated.
Quran 16: 8
And [He created] the horses, mules and donkeys for you to ride and [as] adornment. And He creates that which you do not know
Again nothing to do with what you imply. What is so peculiar about mentioning donkeys as transportation in Quran, donkeys were domesticated 5000 years before
Just like the dragon, nothing new.
Just like any other carriage.
Because he has not eaten fire but was FILLED with gas.
There is no vehicle like that with two foots or tires that separated.
All birds do.
That will be a ship, but ship won't fly. And a ship does not ride on waves.
There is nothing that grows in size while travelling.
In short you used more wilder imagination than the compiler, to fit the data to your need.Still you have quoted these from 'authentic' hadith. Muslims only believe in authentic hadith and not weak ones. Of course we should compare, but the detail you have included is not stated in 'sahih' (authentic) hadith.
I will let you people carry on talking about pointless things.There is nothing like "authentic" hadiths, but only earlier and later ones.
@ BuddiNsense
"But it will change the artificial parallel you constructed. If history cannot be believed what else can be believed, a book written 4 centuries later that contain obvious falsehoods?"
It does not fundamentally affect the parallel because the timeline is merely one aspect of parallel. The case for the parallel is strong because it is multi-dimensional and diverse, there are even more aspects to the parallel than the ones I have mentioned. You previously said that the Zealots from first century Judaism could not be equated with the Wahabbis because Zealots is some generic term for a freedom fighter. Either you are poorly educated in this area or you are willingly seeking to escape a valid point in the parallel. Zeal/Zealous/Zealot has undeniably a religious connotation to it. The etymology is rooted in Prophet David's (pbuh) Psalam i.e. "Zeal for you House" or "Zeal for the law". The term readily and frequently applied to religious extremism and was first adopted in this hardline sense by the Zealots in Jesus's time. Just as the Muslim world today is controlled by western powers, so was Israel "hellenized" by Rome. The Zealots, just like the Islamic extremists today, sought to qualify infidels and put them to death to cleanse the holy lands including "hellenized" Jews or in today's terms "westernized" Muslims. And just like today's religious extremists, they had no Messiah in hand to lead them to success even though their prophecies required it. Those who claimed Messianic credentials, like Hezekiah, met indecorous ends and saw no success.
I have come across the parallels you speak of. Virgin birth, crucifixion, resurrection of the Man-God apparently exist in many legends and traditions. I have not studied these so cannot vouch for their creditability but it is possible given the strength of Jesus's (pbuh) tradition and the context of the canonization of the doctrine of Jesus's divinity in Rome that earlier traditions were re-written to mimic that of the canonized Gospel given its alarming success. This would be all the more credible as the resurrection, ascension and the Man-God concept of Jesus (pbuh) is a crafted myth in itself to cater to Roman traditions.
----------------------------------------------------------------
"As opposed to esoteric research proper research give great value to contemporary books rather than books written by later authors. Considering Jesus Quran or Ahamd or Nicea 300 years is no authority compared to Mark and Paul. Both clearly states that Jesus died. In case of Paul he never said he saw live Jesus and Mark ends with Jesus death and the present ending added very later."
So for you, Paul's Epistles and the Gospel stating Jesus (pbuh) as being crucified is credible, but when it comes to the resurrection the accounts are mere hallucinations. I don't think you can have it both ways. What about all those appearances of Jesus (pbuh) after the crucifixion mentioned in the Gospels that I gave? You conveniently don't address those, or perhaps you will cast them away as hallucinations. If there is historical record that Jesus (pbuh) died on the cross, then there is also historical record that he travelled from Palestine to India, so one account of history is right, the other is wrong. I have already stated why the case for Jesus (pbuh) dying on the cross is weak given the accounts of the crucifixion in the Gospels. When someone is said to have died and then they disappear from the sepulcher three days later then the logical question is can we really be sure he died? Especially if there are strong indicators that he may well not havea.
----------------------------------------------------------------
"Here I mixed up. I confused bible and quran. Bible clearly state that first anti christ comes and rule for 7 years and then jesus comes and bind satan and all the righteous people along with jesus will rule for 1000 years. There is no Mehadi. Quran states no Mehdi nor second coming.
Not only is the Mahdi mention in the Holy Quran but so is Hazrat Ahmad (pbuh). The Holy Quran in verse 11:17 states that a witness from Allah will follow the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). A witness who comes from Allah is a prophet. "Mahdi" means guided. A prophet from Allah can be termed as Mahdi. That's all it means. In verse 61:6 Jesus (pbuh) says that he has come to the Israelites to fulfill the law of the Torah already with them and gives the glad tidings of a Messenger from Allah whose name will be Ahmad. Popular Muslim belief makes an assumption here that this is an attributive name for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). But the Quran uses the name Muhammad when addressing Muhammad (pbuh). So, the one that Jesus (pbuh) is the one who carries the parallel and is the Messiah to come-- Ahmad (pbuh). Jesus ruling for 1,000 years means that the institution or the era of the second coming will be that long just as it has been in such manner for past prophets.
It seems to me that you are a literalist who takes words verbatim and have no sense for allegorical language. Parables and allegory is the language of scripture. Not because we believe so but because scripture itself this mannerism. This is the issue with your reading of the Dajjal's Donkey prophecies. In the Hadith, Dajjal is described as giant with his head above the clouds-- this symbolizes his awesome power and influence. He is blind in the right eye (meaning spiritually blind) but his left eye bulges out (a reference to his worldly awesome capacity). With this eye, he can see through the surface of the earth and see the treasures lying underneath-- again symbols to state that he will be able to reach the vast petroleum reserves from which he will build an amazing fortune. But to a literalist, this is all Chinese. Why do you even bother discussing this? Since you look at them literally you should just reject them on the basis of absurdity.
So, it is somewhat futile for us to keep arguing since we are really speaking two different languages.
Further, your last response on the Quran verse regarding this transportation systems transformation discussion is dishonest. When quoting Quran 56, 72:75, you seem to have deliberately left out verse 56:72. So here is the honest complete translation of the verses:
56:72 -- Do you see the fire which you kindle?
56:73 -- Is it you who produce the tree for it? Or are We the producer?
56:74 -- We have made it a reminder and as a provision for travelers
And again, when discussing Quran 16:8, isn't it common sense that my point is about the part that Allah will create that of which you do not know? Why on earth would I say that donkeys are mentioned as means for transportation? What would that have to do with prophecy?
It seems to me that you are at a loss Sir, and my patience is coming to an end.----------------------------------------------------------------
The parallel is also mythical like the attempted murder of the hero, the hero running away from home land.....
Zealots: You know that the present nationalism was not there in 1st century? The national boundaries were based on race or the political leader. So inevitably Jewish leaders needed some religious zeal. Even the first Macabee started it as a religious war. But it is more political. One another reason they had religious weal is only because the Jews thought that loss of political power is god's punishment. It has nothing to do with David or psalm. They were simply trying to establish Jewish rule by any means. There is no parallel between Moses and Jesus other than that was created by Romanized Jews. And in actuality jesus story is based on earlier stories like Romulus and not the other way round. Jesus was simply another type of “zealot”, a Pharisee. Most of the stories are mythical elements added to him by later authors.
----------------------------------------------------------------
You know that the first gospel is Mark and it ends with Jesus death. Even today many bibles write Mark 16: 9-20 as additional ending of Mark. You also know that all other gospels are later origin and were written to cater to Romans and all are copies of Mark. Additional details were added based on the hallucinations of select few (Paul ). As it was added later more details were added (myths have a habit of getting elaborated as it is retold) and are the reason why none of the gospels ending agree with each other. The most ridiculous one was written centuries later claiming that he didn't die and went to Kashmir. Paul has never seen Jesus live or dead. He clearly stated that he had a "vision", hallucination in our terms. It was his followers that wrote bible. His followers took it that it is the proof of jesus being alive, resurrected.
So you mean Muhammad is a false prophet and the prophet who is to come after Jesus is not Muhammad but Ahmad? In the bible the only one that is to come after Jesus is “holy spirit”. And Quran says Muhammad is the seal. Is the bible wrong then?
“And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic."”
Who said it is magic?
Treasure doesn’t mean petrol alone, but gold, silver……
Dajjals donkey doesn’t mean present transporation.
And that is great about allegorical language, you can bend it anyway you choose. There is another Ahmad contemporary to the Ahmad you speak, then Baha Ullah, Rashid........ Anyone will fit as long as one can use his imagination and say allegorical language support it, but actually all are all false prophets or true prophets of the false god, the Aeon.
That is a lie dear sir, it is you who have left out 56: 72, I had quoted it.
Quran 56: 72 -75
70:If We willed, We could make it bitter, so why are you not grateful?
71:And have you seen the fire that you ignite?
72:Is it you who produced its tree, or are We the producer?
73:We have made it a reminder and provision for the travelers,
74:So exalt the name of your Lord, the Most Great.
75:Then I swear by the setting of the stars,
You said from 73 -75, I quoted from 72.
There is no mention of any transportation system. It also says Allah has produced the tree from which fire wood is made.
16:
6:And for you in them is [the enjoyment of] beauty when you bring them in [for the evening] and when you send them out [to pasture].
7:And they carry your loads to a land you could not have reached except with difficulty to yourselves. Indeed, your Lord is Kind and Merciful.
8: And [He created] the horses, mules and donkeys for you to ride and [as] adornment. And He creates that which you do not know.
9:And upon Allah is the direction of the [right] way, and among the various paths are those deviating. And if He willed, He could have guided you all.
There is nothing special about the “Donkey” in that verse, nor it indicate dajjal's donkey.Exactly what i was thinking. The donkey is not significant in the end of the world prophecies, never mind fire breathing and fire eating donkey who rides on water. Some people's imagination runs wild when it comes to animals.
Some people's imagination runs wild when it comes to God too!
@ G Miah
The authentic hadith by means of tracing the chain of transmission to a source close to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is a "human" endeavor in order to rate the quality of the historical record. Because unlike the Quran, Hadith is not guaranteed to be safe from interference. So, even in Sahih Hadith one should not dismiss the possibility that it can still be wrong. After all, what guarantee is there that the "Musnad" (the chain) itself is true? What if someone fabricated a Hadith and gave it a chain that goes back to Hazrat Abu-Hurraira? Hadiths have been manipulated by corrupt rulers for political reasons.
Prophecies that are fulfilled, and if one accepts it as such, then the authenticity is verified by the fact that the prophecy has been fulfilled. As prophecies come from Allah who gives his prophets the knowledge of the "ghaib" (the unknown and the unseen) then a human system of authentication is no longer required and that hadith can be taken to be fully authentic, in fact with greater certainly than the human system which could have been tampered with.
Using terms like "pointless" or "ignorant" are not helpful in argument. It actually reflects that you are not able to make a case or argument, that is why you had to resort to using a word like that. It reflects on none other than yourself.Yes Amer. I do not doubt any of the sahih hadith and if i do then that means my imaan is weak. No wonder Qadiani have a totally different belief and follow other 'hadiths' than the ones that have chained from the companions of the prophet (peace be upon him) compiled by Bukhari and others which all major scholars accept as authentic.
I am not surprised by your reply. Why would i be. I don't have anything to do with you so i pray for your and my guidance from Allah. Assalamu alaikum.
@BuddiNsense:
When revolutionaries come they are always opposed by incumbent authority and have to run away from the homeland. It is basic common sense and logic, not fairy tales.
Contemporary thought and psychology in the Islamic world is not based on religion? It's more like nationalism?? The Wahaabbi movement is nationalism? Abd Al-Wahab, the founder of the movement has written in his book that his movement is the 73rd sect that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said would come in the latter days that will be the only one rightly-guided while the other 72 will be "in the fire"-- a claim that rivals with that of the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam. The Wahabbis saw it upon themselves to cleanse the Islamic world (by the sword if need be) before taking up the rest of the world. And they too thought that they were under divine punishment colonized by corrupt Turkish and western powers. Both, the Zealots and the Wahabbis, may well have political gains to boot, but both booted a religious ideology of violence to that end.
My reference to the Psalms of David (69:9-- "zeal for your house has consumed me" ) was to point out that the etymology of the term "Zealot" is from religious thought to serve the one true God and His law (which in turn was manipulated to fight the Roman occupation) and does not apply to a generic notion of freedom fighter as you had asserted. Which nationalist freedom fighter leveraged the term "zealot" to symbolize his or her plight? It is used for religious extremism based on the events of first century AD.
Jesus was Pharisee? Are you for real? Or just desperate now? Here is what Jesus (pbuh) had to say about the Pharisees . . .'They bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men' (Matthew 23: 4-5).
'You are like unto whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness' (Matthew 23:27).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know the Gospels mention Jesus's (pbuh) death. But I keep telling you that they also mention him walking and talking after this supposed death. The Jews who sough to destroy him were obviously keen to announce his death to strip his claim being the Messiah since Messiah cannot die an accursed death. Romans would have recorded it as such to show they executed on the sentence. Even Pilate was surprised that he could have died so quickly. He wasn't dead, there is even historical record to this outside of the Gospels-- On p.73 of this historical text "A Letter Written by A Personal Friend of Jesus to An Esseer Brother in Alexandria" St. Nicodemus says, " Dear friends, be of good cheer, and let us go to work. Jesus is not dead, he seems so as his strength is gone".
But go on ignoring it, and keep repeating that the Gospel of Mark canonized by the Council of Nicea in 325AD says that he died.
Even Paul's story corroborates that Jesus (pbuh) survived the crucifixion. Paul, originally a zealous persecutor of Christians, may well have heard that Jesus, presumed dead, was in hiding and even continuing his activities. In Acts 9:1-2 he requests the High Priest to go to Damascus from where he may bring back men and women bound to Jerusalem. Esoteric scholars who are now piecing what really happened cite that Jesus was probably based in Damascus immediately after the crucifixion where he may have found a safe haven with the Essene order and also where since the uprising of the Maccabees in 165 BC had led to anti Jewish sentiment. Sossianis Hierocles, a Roman governor and brutal persecutor of Christians, writes in his book "To The Christians" that, "after fleeing from the Jews, Christ collected as many as 900 men all given to robbery"-- just one of the pieces of historical evidence that Jesus (pbuh) did not die on the cross. Paul may have met Jesus in Damascus through the apostle Ananius (Acts 9). Paul himself says he was given to wild mood swings and blackouts which he termed as attacks from demons. Somehow, he dreamt up this wild and unbelievable version of his meeting with Jesus. May be it was willful craft so he could preach the Man-God concept to Greeks and win over converts easily.
---------------------------------------------------------
It is regrettable that you colored my reference to Ahmad (pbuh) as a denial of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I at least strive to be a Muslim and my be ridden with faults but attacking my beliefs about Prophet Muhammd (pbuh) is just bad taste. Go back and read what I actually said-- I said that Jesus (pbuh) in that verse would be speaking to the one to come after him in parallel. As Jesus came to affirm an existing heavenly law of the Torah (as given in the verse) so would Ahmad who also came to reaffirm the law of the Quran. This is why Muhammad (pbuh) termed the one to come as "Isa, Son of Maryam"-- expounding on the parallel.
The names Rashid Khalifa and Bahaullah are NOT "Ahamd". Again, why the desperation? And who is this contemporary Ahamd you speak of other than Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (pbuh)? Please elaborate.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
These verse of the Holy Quran say that "fire is a provision for those who travel", and they say that animal mounts are the known modes of transportation, and there will other modes of which there was no knowledge at the time. All I am saying is that these open up the interpretation that I make and the case I build of the Dajjal's Donkey prophecies.
It is yours to reject.Yes, but that does not make it a parallel nor make it imperative that the hero succeed all the time. In fact, from history, most of the time it is not the revolutionary who started it who finish it, but someone else. In Jesus case also it was no different. Romans were never kind to revolutionaries.
____________________________________________________________
Contemporary thought and psychology in the Islamic world is not based on religion? It's more like nationalism?? The Wahaabbi movement is nationalism? Abd Al-Wahab, the founder of the movement has written in his book that his movement is the 73rd sect that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said would come in the latter days that will be the only one rightly-guided while the other 72 will be "in the fire"-- a claim that rivals with that of the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam. The Wahabbis saw it upon themselves to cleanse the Islamic world (by the sword if need be) before taking up the rest of the world. And they too thought that they were under divine punishment colonized by corrupt Turkish and western powers. Both, the Zealots and the Wahabbis, may well have political gains to boot, but both booted a religious ideology of violence to that end.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wahhabi was religious first and political later. It had a clear religious idea, while zealots it was not so. There primary aim was political, restore independence of Judah, and free it from Rome.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My reference to the Psalms of David (69:9-- "zeal for your house has consumed me" ) was to point out that the etymology of the term "Zealot" is from religious thought to serve the one true God and His law (which in turn was manipulated to fight the Roman occupation) and does not apply to a generic notion of freedom fighter as you had asserted. Which nationalist freedom fighter leveraged the term "zealot" to symbolize his or her plight? It is used for religious extremism based on the events of first century AD.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It doesn’t matter how the term originated, but it matter what they did and why they did. Religious reform was not their aim, just like the Sicari their prime aim was Political freedom. In fact they were less fanatical compared to Sicari.
____________________________________________________________
Jesus was Pharisee? Are you for real? Or just desperate now? Here is what Jesus (pbuh) had to say about the Pharisees . . .'They bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men' (Matthew 23: 4-5).
'You are like unto whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness' (Matthew 23:27).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The gospels were very detailed and almost agree except for a few minor details of Jesus death, yet you say it is not believable but you believe this minor detail? Jesus teachings were the same as the Pharisees. In fact, his law “do not do unto others what……” is an adoption of Rabbi Hillel’s, one of the greatest Pharisees. Only when Christianity came into conflict with Pharisees over the end of the century such polemics against Pharisees got into bible, to keep them separated from Pharisees.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know the Gospels mention Jesus's (pbuh) death. But I keep telling you that they also mention him walking and talking after this supposed death. The Jews who sough to destroy him were obviously keen to announce his death to strip his claim being the Messiah since Messiah cannot die an accursed death. Romans would have recorded it as such to show they executed on the sentence. Even Pilate was surprised that he could have died so quickly. He wasn't dead, there is even historical record to this outside of the Gospels-- On p.73 of this historical text "A Letter Written by A Personal Friend of Jesus to An Esseer Brother in Alexandria" St. Nicodemus says, " Dear friends, be of good cheer, and let us go to work. Jesus is not dead, he seems so as his strength is gone".
But go on ignoring it, and keep repeating that the Gospel of Mark canonized by the Council of Nicea in 325AD says that he died.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pilate was surprised? Who was there to record Pilates reaction? Mark before canonization ENDED with Jesus death. The later part, resurrection was added later. Gospels all disagree to what happened after death. It varies from he immediately went to heaven to went after 40 days. If it was a real event there wouldn’t have been much confusion, but it was only elaborations of Paul’s “visions”. He walked and talked was added to cater to Romans, for an executed criminal won’t be much attractive to Romans.
______________________________________________________________
Even Paul's story corroborates that Jesus (pbuh) survived the crucifixion. Paul, originally a zealous persecutor of Christians, may well have heard that Jesus, presumed dead, was in hiding and even continuing his activities. In Acts 9:1-2 he requests the High Priest to go to Damascus from where he may bring back men and women bound to Jerusalem. Esoteric scholars who are now piecing what really happened cite that Jesus was probably based in Damascus immediately after the crucifixion where he may have found a safe haven with the Essene order and also where since the uprising of the Maccabees in 165 BC had led to anti Jewish sentiment. Sossianis Hierocles, a Roman governor and brutal persecutor of Christians, writes in his book "To The Christians" that, "after fleeing from the Jews, Christ collected as many as 900 men all given to robbery"-- just one of the pieces of historical evidence that Jesus (pbuh) did not die on the cross. Paul may have met Jesus in Damascus through the apostle Ananius (Acts 9). Paul himself says he was given to wild mood swings and blackouts which he termed as attacks from demons. Somehow, he dreamt up this wild and unbelievable version of his meeting with Jesus. May be it was willful craft so he could preach the Man-God concept to Greeks and win over converts easily
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul himself say he never got it from any human and he got all by REVELATION. A high priest who has no authority in Jerusalem itself gave authority to go to Damascus? You should study how to differentiate history from myth. Paul story only corroborate his death, his resurrection was his hallucination when he fell from a horse.
“Somehow, he dreamt up this wild and unbelievable version of his meeting with Jesus”
Exactly he never saw, but said he did. So when Romans adopted his version they made Jesus resurrect from death to account for his “visions”. Romans were too powerful to let go a zealot whom they crucified.
---------------------------------------------------------
It is regrettable that you colored my reference to Ahmad (pbuh) as a denial of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I at least strive to be a Muslim and my be ridden with faults but attacking my beliefs about Prophet Muhammd (pbuh) is just bad taste. Go back and read what I actually said-- I said that Jesus (pbuh) in that verse would be speaking to the one to come after him in parallel. As Jesus came to affirm an existing heavenly law of the Torah (as given in the verse) so would Ahmad who also came to reaffirm the law of the Quran. This is why Muhammad (pbuh) termed the one to come as "Isa, Son of Maryam"-- expounding on the parallel.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is regrettable that you insert words into Quran. Quran was quoting Jesus and Jesus was not saying about any parallel. Bible itself is evidence that after Jesus only one is to come. Ahmad probably is not a name. Jesus might have been telling that after him a “more praised” one will be coming. You are creating too many artificial parallels, you might have a great imagination. Muhammad was saying that like Jesus came to affirm torah, He came to affirm Jesus, and he is the seal the last one.
_________________________________________________________
The names Rashid Khalifa and Bahaullah are NOT "Ahamd". Again, why the desperation? And who is this contemporary Ahamd you speak of other than Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (pbuh)? Please elaborate.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Muhammad Ahmad of Mahdiyya, Riaz Aḥmed Gohar Shahi of MFI are two Ahmads.
Again, as I explained names do not matter. A Mahdi will come, then Dajjal who will rule for 7 – 21 years, the Jesus will come and Mahdi and Jesus or Jesus alone will fight against him. Before Mahdi many false prophets will be here (30?).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
These verse of the Holy Quran say that "fire is a provision for those who travel", and they say that animal mounts are the known modes of transportation, and there will other modes of which there was no knowledge at the time. All I am saying is that these open up the interpretation that I make and the case I build of the Dajjal's Donkey prophecies.
It is yours to reject.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are altering the words of Quran again. It does not say fire is the provision but says that “it is I who make the tree from which you produce fire”. And it does not say that there will be other modes of transportation either, other than that which you twist to misinterpret. And the tree is the provision for travelers not fire and even if it is fire, it does not mean another way other than the fire from firewood.
@ G Miah
Walaikum Salaam, ok so you are a believer in the Sahih Hadith like you say. Below are a few references directly from Sahih Hadith for your consideration:
> Sunan Ibne Maja, Kitabul Fitan, Bab ul Ayaat Hadith #4057 (Part of Saha Sitha-- the six most authentic compilations of Hadith)
> Sheikh Noam bin Hammad, who was a Sheikh of Imam Bukhari also has a book called Kitabul Fitan which has the same Hadith as above and he narrates that it is an authentic hadith.
> And many other scholars have affirmed and written that this hadith is among the authentic.
This Hadith says that the major signs before the day of judgement will begin after the completion of 12 centuries.
What is your view on this? Do you accept this Hadith? or reject it?My view is that i have searched for it via Google because i haven't got access to the books at the moment and did not find anything relating to the reference you have quoted. I did however find something which came close to the reference number you provided but it's not in English and the website is Pakistani. I do not trust websites which are Bangladeshi, Pakistani or Indian as i have found they have different sects and change the meanings of the Quran and sahih hadiths.
Therefore, the hadith you have mentioned does not exist, i have never come across before and i have also read and heard that no, NO ONE, except Allah knows the unknown unless he wills or willed prophets and messengers to know.
I feel that this discussion is pointless and a waste of my time. It is also fuel for shaytaan to influence me into committing sins which i would be better off not doing.
I will unfollow this conversation and leave you to your beliefs and practices. Peace be upon you.
A search on Google, a conclusion with in a few minutes, and then runs away blaming the devil. So much for your belief and commitment to Sahih Hadith.
Oh well, Peace be upon you too and may Allah keep you in His Mercy, Grace and guidance.Search on google? Have your thought that people have bothered to research the claims and study history? Have you ever thougth that people can see things as it is rather than through a biased prism?
Do you know what "god" means? God is not a tyrant who demand worship and is waiting to sent humans to hell because they didn't believe humans. God is god not a dirty dictator or tyrant. God is not partial but is omnipotent. So if he wants to talk to humans he can talk to each and everyone. But hge don't bother as he do not punish humans, he is not a silly judge and executionar.
Muslim tradition or my limited study of it tells me that Jesus is a prophet, like Muhammed. Nothing more.
Mahdi is the last imam (like an Islamic pope or bishop). He will unite Islam against itself with his great charisma, butcher a majority of the population and usher in a new world order.
Sound familiar?Kill people? That doesn't sound good. Christ wasn't a killer.
NO, he is yet to arrive, just like the jc myth, but the signs are different.
He is prophesied.Isn't it believed that this person and Christ will rule the world together after the so called Rapture occurs?
I quote:
Imam Mahdi with Hadhrat Isa (Jesus) Alayhis Salaam. They are two different persons, and both will come during the last days. According to Hadeeth, Imam Mahdi will appear first, and Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) will appear during Imam Mahdi's lifetime. Furthermore, only Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) will be able to kill Dajjal (the "anti-Christ").
I hope that helps.
Shias believe he was born many years ago and is in 'occultation' - so actually, Shias do believe the Mahdi is alive today. But Sunnis do not.
True dat!
And they have been killing each other over these myths for many many decades.
Whose is Mirza, and why do you think this person is the prophet of this era? I am just curious.
With all respect to ibneahmad, his views on Islam represent a very small minority sect that to some is not even within the fold of Islam.
Mahdi is a strong concept with Shia Muslims (Shias being a minority sect also)
Mahdi is not Jesus. Muslims are waiting for the return of Jesus in the same way Christians are.
Mahdi will have a different role depending on who you ask, to Sunni Muslims, he is no more than an Islamic leader that unites Muslims from all countries just before the emergence of Jesus. He is not divine or holy, just human.
To Shias, he is still a uniting leader but for them, Mahdi is a divine/holy being, not just an ordinary human.
The prophecies regarding the two 'versions' of Mahdi differ also.
Mahdi is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran.
Hope that helps to clarify it at least a little
Do research it, it gets VERY interesting when you realise the similarities between the Shia Mahdi and the AC(as depicted within both Christianity and Islam).Nicely written, I as a Muslim always find these Religious threads very interesting in how many people pick up on just the negative elements that they can find about Quran and Islam, they then propagate that as being gospel. Without ever stopping to interpret or understand the context of certain verses or haadith's that they state as evidence of Islam being this huge Monster. Out to kill every one, and enslave them with force in one Islam.
Islam does not force anyone to become a Muslim. In the Quran it clearly states that there is no compulsion in religion - an modern day example of that is India, Muslims ruled India for decades yet Muslims remain a minority in India - so if the concept of Islam being propagated by force was true then you would see a totally different India. Same goes for China - Muslims ruled China for a number of decades until they were overthrown, if they wanted at the time then majority of China would have been Muslim then you have the growing issue of educated, civilized (as if everyone living in the Muslim world is not) Americans and Europeans, who is forcing Islam on the thousands of Americans and Europeans who are reverting to Islam almost on a daily basis.
Lets unite on one subject that is the Oneness of God and we are all going back to him one day. All the other differences accept them and live in harmony instead of poking each other to create discourse that only harms people - I think life is too short to squabble over point scoring and petty hate mongering.
All the best.
One may Google for Mirza Ghualm Ahmad- the Imam Mahdi and the Promised Messiah of our era.
If I wanted to google it I would have never posted this thread. Duh
Mirza Ghualm Ahmad- this "suppossed" Imam Mahdi of his, is his heretical founder of his sect... they are heretics and pretty well dispised in true Islam. The Ahmediyya are a vocal lil minority in the Islamic world, no more than a fraction of a percent.
And getting slaughtered for their troubles everyday.
---"While more than 70 Ahmediyya’s were killed in Pakistan this year, the delegates visiting the three-day congregation of Ahmediyya community which began in Qadian about 30 Kms from here on Sunday, said lack of freedom to practice their faith had forced many to migrate to other countries."---
http://ahmadiyyatimes.blogspot.com/2010 … orces.html
They are heretics IE, and have basically no say in true Islam.
It is a shame though, because they are about the calmest bunch of Muslims I have ever met.
But their interpretation of Islam holds no wieght in the Ummah, and they succeed only in getting themselves killed for speaking out... as the entire Ummah knows their version of islam is junk... so they stay real quiet in most countries these days.The actual Imam Mahdi has not arrived yet, there are impostors calling themselves Imam Mahdi and prophets etc. He will be officially announced when the time comes inshallah and Allah knows best.
Mirza died on the toilet in his own faeces. That's who Mirza Gulam is. He is no Messiah and no Mahdi. He is a Dajjal (Deceiver) of our time.
Jesus already said that, whoever comes after him is a deceiver.
Quran is the first source of guiadance of Muslims whatever the sect. I have started a hub mentioning about Imam Mahdi from Quran.
The question here is "Who is Imam Mahdi?"; except the Ahmadiyya nobody else does explain their concept from Quran; which proves that they have distanced themselves from Quran.
I have explained the concept of Imam Mahdi from Quran in a hub; Shias and Sunnis should correct themselves accordingly as they both have to believe in Quran before they believe in anything else.
That's funny, they both say the quoran is the source of their beliefs.
I have no reason to disbelieve either of them or even the Taliban after reading the quoran.
The Sunnis and the Shias may differ on issues as everybody has got freedom of opinion, choice and faith.
and the capacity to justify killing each other over who's version of the myth is the right one.
The fact is, Isa, Christ in Islam, is not the Christ Christians await... and the Mahdi could be the anti-chhrist. A lot of similarities in his coming and being, as compared to the christian anti-christ
Anyone writing on any Islamic concept should prove his point of view from Quran the first and the foremost source of Islam else one should clearly admit that it is not supported by Quran.
Sorry, it's actually the Baitul maqdis mosque in Damascus/Palestine. It is also referred to as the white minaret dome which was the first Qiblah (the direction all muslims in the world had to pray towards). (this is all according to scholars and hadeeth).
'The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community claims to embody the true teachings of Islam dispensed by The Messiah and Mahdi(Divine Guide), Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as prophesized by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in an era wrought by misguidance and deception'
So you are saying that Ahmadiyya are the original and true followers of Islam? Sounds like Shia to me. Anyway, each to their own.
Who is this Mirza Gulam by the way? Is he bigger and better than the companions and does his teaching outweigh the sahih hadith?Yes, our claim is that we are the true followers and the rightly-guided sect (Firqa-e-Najiya) because we have accepted and follow the Messiah & Mahdi (pbuh) as commanded by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and The Holy Quran 3:81.
Shia, Salafi or anyone else is free to make this claim. But The Ahmadiyya are the only ones which were unanimously opposed by scholars of all other 72 (or the rest) sects at Ribbat ul Aalim Islami (World Muslim League) in 1974. We believe this to be the fulfillment of the prophecy of Holy prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that there will come a time that Muslims will split into 73 sects of which 72 will be in the fire (meaning misguided) and only 1 on the right path.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (pbuh) is the Promised Mahdi, Messiah, second advent of Jesus foretold by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and other prophets for the final age of mankind. 'Bigger' and 'better' are not words I would use but his status in Ummat-e-Muhammadiyya (followers of Muhammad pbuh) would be only second to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).Oh right. So Mirza Gulam Ahmed is the Mahdi? I didn't think that we had reached that part of the major sign, which has overtaken the coming of Dajjal.
It seems that Ahmadiyyas have made a self declaration that they are the true sect, whereas a normal, practising Muslim who worships One Allah and his Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon Him) would not even consider thinking of it.
Good for you Ahmadiyyas, keep up the good work.Naturally, according to our interpretation Dajjal is already here. You probably are following literal interpretations I believe, we take these prophecies to be symbolic.
Prophets have always made loud and clear declarations about who they are what their purpose is. Read the life of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and you will find it there. He had his signet ring or seal say that he was a Messenger of Allah. Read the Quran and you will find it there too. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) repeatedly admonished the disbelievers to follow his teachings and accept his claim. This has always been the sunnah (way) of prophets and messengers, and the followers who carry their mission. Since the Quran says in 23:44 that true prophets have always been treated as liars by people, I am sure there were people who called true prophets as self-proclaimed.
Thank you for your kind thoughts, rest assured we will keep it up till our dying breath.
And why are you so deep into this end times when we don't know when it will be? Shouldn't we be practising the religion rather than worry about the end times?
When it comes it will come. We just have to keep our imaan strong and worry about our own selves.Yes, you are correct to an extent. In a Hadith someone had asked the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) about the 10 major signs of Day of Judgement and he had also advised to focus on righteousness and prepare as if the judgement day will be hear any day.
But prophecies and signs are there for a reason too. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself gave many prophecies and many exist in the Quran too. The Quran repeatedly reprimands those who reject the 'ayaat' or Signs. The signs are there to strengthen faith and be able to face opposition.
I don't claim to know when or even try to figure it out. But as for the Signs and prophecies that have already come to pass, they are for those who want to reflect on them and improve their deeds. It is very much a part of faith. If there is a heavenly guide deputed for this age, then it is critical to know him and to follow him per Islamic beliefs. If we were sufficient for ourselves, why does Allah send prophets?
So you Ahmadiyyas/Qadianis believe that Gulam Mirza was a prophet? The guy who died in a toilet of all places?
Normal practising Muslims rarely die in toilets never mind prophets.
Anyway, each to their own.Your insults and ignorance towards Hazrat Ahmad (as) are no different than the insults of Jews on the Messiah Jesus (as), and those of Christians on the Prophet Muhammad (saw). You probably picked this off any of a dozen websites and in your "normal practicing Muslim" ways and never bothered with a shred of investigation or evidence. Doesn't surprise me or anyone else, anyone can see the condition of the so-called "normal" Muslims today.
Eyewitness accounts of Hazrat Ahmad (as)'s death mention it to have taken place on his bed. Another accusation that he died an accursed death (just like the Jews accuse Jesus pbuh of dying an accursed death on the cross) of cholera. His death certificate states no such cause of death.
It is noteworthy that every time I respond to you with something of substance, all you ever come back with is insult and innuendo-- is that what you call being a "normal practicing Muslim"? I suppose that is the normal in this day age.
So go on believing what you will and hurling whatever insults you want. If we are true, no level of opposition or falsehoods on earth can stop our progress. To us it increases our faith even more as we see conditions exactly as our Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) described they will be, especially the so-called Muslims of today-- the new "normal".
I can not still understand why Islam is linked with terrorism which is glaring and can not be denied. In a church in Northern Nigeria, 500 Christians were slaughtered in one night, what do you call that. Even in the Haddith, The prophet himself in a battle did the same, so, who is fooling who? Can you explain what is happening in Iraq, Syria - we can see the horror going on there, are they not Muslims ? Your proofs about Islam been a peaceful religion is doubtful
Yeah we are closely related but our religious believe differentiates us. If you check this image (http://majesticislam.files.wordpress.co … ophets.jpg), you will come to understand what Hazrat Mosa, Hazrat Isa and our Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) are from same family.
Amer i'm going to be straight up with you. Your sect of Islam is SHIRK. You are all deluded and believe and trust in this guy who died of diarheoa/bowel problems in his bed or in a toilet who you believe to be the last prophet or the Mahdi. How much more deluded can you get? You are confused and ruled by Satan himself to believe in Mirza Gulab to be a prophet/mahdi.
I pray that you are guided on to the straight path by Allah. (The last and final prophet/messenger is Muhammad (peace be upon him). There will be no one after him.
Isa (Jesus, peace be upon him) will return and the Mahdi will appear when Allah wills. Dajjal will appear when Allah wills. The world will end when Allah wills. That's it. Final. No one but Allah knows when the world will end, not you, not your Mirza Gulam and not me. ONLY ALLAH.
Have faith in Allah and the rest will be easy.Aren't you deluded in believing another guy who died?
No prophet or messenger died in such a manner so how can a normal man die from bowel problems with diarhoea and be regarded as a prophet as is the case with Ahmadiyas?
When it comes to human beings or human rights, anyone is free to believe whatever religion they want. They can believe in God or choose not to do so. That is their own choice.It can also be argued that no prophet or messenger has suffered from fever and weakness for several days, so can your prophet be regarded a prophet? Humans can have deceases and die from that, so?
The question is how do you know that you are believing in God, for all you know you could be believing in satan?
@ GMiah
I thought you had left this conversation, that is rather poor resolve to still see you here. I guess you are back here with your insulting ways as you have nothing better on concrete to say.
As I have said before your insulting the manner in which Hazrat Ahmad (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), the Promised Mahdi and Messiah, died is the same as how the Jews insult the manner in which Hazrat Isa (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) the Promised Messiah to Bani Israeel died.
What a glorious fulfillment of the Sahih Hadith Al-Tirmidhi Kitabul Imaan where Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) says that a time will come when my following will come to resemble the Jews like the shoe on one foot resembles the shoe on the other foot! And verse 23:44 of The Holy Quran: "Every time came a Messenger to their people and they mocked him".
I'll tell you what, this is going to be my last communication with you and I will stick by my resolve.
Peace be with you.
@amer786 who is Hazrat Ahmad, if prophet then when he came?
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (pbuh) 1835 - 1908. He was the founder of The Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam and claimed to be prophet and Messiah of the latter-days per the prophecies of Prophets Muhammad (pbuh), Jesus (pbuh) and other prophets too. Also known as "The Second Coming of Jesus, Son of Mary" which we take to be symbolic and allegorical but is popularly assumed literally to be the same Jesus who lived on Earth 2,000 years ago and is in heaven awaiting return.
So you mean our last Prophet Muhammad (SAW) predicted about Mirza Ghulam Ahmad?
If yes then please share the authentic Hadith.May I?
Quran 61: 6, Surat Aş-Şaf
"And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic.""
These is his reference.So how can you say that Hazrat Esa "Jesus" (AS) referring to Mirza Ghulam Ahmed not to the second name of our Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
This name "Ahmed" is also mentioned in Gita or Vidh "Book of Hindhu Religion" said by Kirishna, he was referring to our Prophet "Hazrat Muhammad (SAW).
Need reply.1.His name was Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim, there is no Ahmed, so how can you say that Jesus was referring to Muhammad?
2. Muhammad was never called as Ahmed in Quran
3. That was his argument when I asked.
4. Jesus, in bible, mention only a paraclete no Ahmad.
Can you site the verse from Gita?so how about this?
Allah's Apostle said, "I have five names: I am Muhammad and Ahmad; I am Al-Mahi through whom Allah will eliminate infidelity; I am Al-Hashir who will be the first to be resurrected, the people being resurrected there after; and I am also Al-'Aqib (i.e. There will be no prophet after me)."
Sahih Bukhari - Volume 4, Book 56, Number 732
Here Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) said that no one will come after me as prophet.Not Quran. And Jesus should know better.
One cannot be Muhammad and Ahmad, "praised one" and "highly praised one" at the same time.
Jesus also said the same.
What about the Gita verse?Muhammad is name and Ahmed is attribute of Our Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (SAW).
You want Gita verse but first believe our own Quran and Hadith then other.
Just answer my question,
Don't you believe what our Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) said in that Hadith?It could be the attribute of Gulam Ahmad or Muhammad Ahmad or even Rashad Khalifa?
You said Gita says about Muhammad, in that case you believe that Gita is correct, don't you? You agree that Krishna is god?
Another reason I asked is because I have never come across a verse that sites Muhammad in Gita.
I think you know that there are strong hadiths and weak hadiths, which means that the authenticity of the Hadith is in Question. Muhammad couldn't have said that as he already quoted Jesus as saying Ahmad. As it was Muhammad himself doing the quoting, he would have used his own name, if he meant himself, especially since, according to bible, jesus said only "helper".First of all, I am not idiot to believe Kirishna is God and in Gita, our Prophet was mentioned by his attribute so you will say same that this attribute is for your "Prophet" Ahmed.
I know about a hadith and will share where Muhammad was telling someone who was reading, said "Isn't my name mentioned in Bible, that reader said no but his son who was dying said it is mentioned while reading "First Kalma".
My question is still valid,
Why don't you believe in our Prophet Muhammad (SAW) words, if you don't believe them, you won't believe my words no matter what I do.
I will pray for you.You cannot have it both ways. Either Krishna tells about Muhammad in gita, Krishna should be God and is correct in all respects or Gita doesn't say. You cannot say it is correct only about Muhammad and false in all other aspects.
You didn't say which attribute and how do you know that it was about Muhammad? Which is that Verse, you still haven't provided me that one, so how can say what it means.
If Gita does not say about Muhammad, and if the islamic followers believe that it do, then they can be easily fooled by such forgeries, is it not?
Forgery and your belief in that is no more authentic than your belief in gita.
You may site any "hadith" but that will neither make the hadith authentic nor will it make the bible say it. Can you quote a single bible verse (from Jesus) that say about Muhammad?
You think I am an idiot to believe in your prophet's words? Your words are inconsistent.
I will pray for you.You seems like interested in Gita verse so here what I have found.
It is mentioned in Bhagwat Purana Khand 1 Adhyay 3 Shloka 25:
“Then in the twilight of the Kali age, when kings will be as good as robbers, this protector of the world will be born of Vishnuyasa under the name Kalki“. The description of the Kalki Avatar i.e. the final Avatar is given in the verses Kalki Purana chapter 2 verses 4, 5, 7, 11 & 15.
1. Mother’s name Sumati i.e. Aaminah
The name of his mother will be Sumati (K.P.2: 4 & 11), which means gentle and thoughtful, Prophet Muhammad’s mother’s name was Aaminah, which means peaceful and gentle.
2. Father’s name Vishnuyash i.e. Abdullah.
His father’s name will be ‘Vishnuyash’ which means ‘worshipper of Vishnu’ i.e. ‘worshipper of God’. Muhammad’s father’s name was Abdullah which means ‘obedient worshipper of Allah i.e. God’.
3. Born in Sambhala i.e. Makkah
He will be born in a village called ‘Sambhala’ which means house of peace and security. Makkah is known as Darul Aman, which means house of peace and security.
4. Born in house of Chief Priest.
He will be born in the house of chief of the village Sambhala. Muhammad (pbuh) was born in the house of the chief of the Kaaba.
5. Born on the 12th day of Madhav i.e. Rabi-ul-Awwal.
It is prophesied that Kalki Avtar will be born on the 12th day of the bright (first) half of the month of Madhav. It is a historical fact Muhammad (pbuh) was born on the 12th day of the bright half of the month of Rabi-ul-Awwal.
6. He will be the Antim or final Avatar
He has been described as the ‘Antim’ i.e. ‘the last and final’ of all the Avatars. The Qur’an also mentions:
Muhammad is not
The Father of any
Of your men, but (he is)
The Messenger of Allah,
And the seal (the last and final) of the Prophets,
And Allah has full knowledge
Of all things
(Al Qur’an 33:40)
This is from Bible and I know you would tell it is about your prophet Ahmed.
"And remember Jesus the son of Mary said: 'O Children of Israel! I am the Prophet of Allah (sent) to you confirming the Law (which came) before me and giving glad Tidings of a Prophet to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.' But when he came to them with Clear Signs they said 'This is evident sorcery!' "
[Al-Qur'an 61:5-6]
Now this is my last comment for you and won't waster my time anymore and keep Your Prophet word for yourself. Our Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said that "I am last prophet and no one will come after me, only Dajjal would be one to show himself as Prophet or even God.If Krishna knew about Muhammad he should be god, right?
It is mentioned in Bhagwat Purana Khand 1 Adhyay 3 Shloka 25:
“Then in the twilight of the Kali age, when kings will be as good as robbers, this protector of the world will be born of Vishnuyasa under the name Kalki“. The description of the Kalki Avatar i.e. the final Avatar is given in the verses Kalki Purana chapter 2 verses 4, 5, 7, 11 & 15.
1. Mother’s name Sumati i.e. Aaminah
The name of his mother will be Sumati (K.P.2: 4 & 11), which means gentle and thoughtful, Prophet Muhammad’s mother’s name was Aaminah, which means peaceful and gentle.
2. Father’s name Vishnuyash i.e. Abdullah.
His father’s name will be ‘Vishnuyash’ which means ‘worshipper of Vishnu’ i.e. ‘worshipper of God’. Muhammad’s father’s name was Abdullah which means ‘obedient worshipper of Allah i.e. God’.
3. Born in Sambhala i.e. Makkah
He will be born in a village called ‘Sambhala’ which means house of peace and security. Makkah is known as Darul Aman, which means house of peace and security.
4. Born in house of Chief Priest.
He will be born in the house of chief of the village Sambhala. Muhammad (pbuh) was born in the house of the chief of the Kaaba.
5. Born on the 12th day of Madhav i.e. Rabi-ul-Awwal.
It is prophesied that Kalki Avtar will be born on the 12th day of the bright (first) half of the month of Madhav. It is a historical fact Muhammad (pbuh) was born on the 12th day of the bright half of the month of Rabi-ul-Awwal.
6. He will be the Antim or final Avatar
He has been described as the ‘Antim’ i.e. ‘the last and final’ of all the Avatars. The Qur’an also mentions:
Muhammad is not
The Father of any
Of your men, but (he is)
The Messenger of Allah,
And the seal (the last and final) of the Prophets,
And Allah has full knowledge
Of all things
(Al Qur’an 33:40)
Very good, except that all of these is falsehood.
I asked you for the GITA verse, as you said it is said in Gita, but what you have provided is purana. Even that is wrongly translated,
1. Kalki comes near the end of kaliyuga which has not even completed the its half duration at present and after kalki a new satyayuga comes in a generation.
2. विष्णुयशसः(Vishnuyasas) means worthy of vishnu not worshipper of vishnu
3. शम्भल(Sambhal) is only a name and it has variant meanings, like jealousy ,family, stock for travelling, envy, shore or a race, bank, provender or provisions for a journey, bred in sambhala, match-maker, wooer, suitor, procurer, one who brings together, Name-town, coastal command [Mil.]
none of which is 'house of peace and security'.
4.सुमति (Sumati)again is only a name, but it can mean wise and intelligent or devotion and prayer, not gentle thoughtful.
About the Arabic words I refrain from, but just mention that Kalki was born to chief of village, not in the chief's house and Abdallah means servant of god, not worshiper.
Avatar of Vishnu is God, not prophet.
This is from Bible and I know you would tell it is about your prophet Ahmed.
"And remember Jesus the son of Mary said: 'O Children of Israel! I am the Prophet of Allah (sent) to you confirming the Law (which came) before me and giving glad Tidings of a Prophet to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.' But when he came to them with Clear Signs they said 'This is evident sorcery!' "
[Al-Qur'an 61:5-6]
That is not bible but Quran. I asked you for the verse from bible. But you are again stating that the prophet to come is either named Ahmad or "highly praised" not Muhammad. What I am stating is that it say the prophet name is NOT Muhammad, not it is Ahmad.
Now this is my last comment for you and won't waster my time anymore
Running away?
Well, I agree it is sensible when caught red handed!
and keep Your Prophet word for yourself. Our Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said that "I am last prophet and no one will come after me, only Dajjal would be one to show himself as Prophet or even God.
Ahmad is Amer786's prophet, not mine. I do not believe in any human who claims himself to be from god. Neither do I claim that others people's god are right in a few verses (if it can be misinterpreted as mine) and mistaken in all else. I am neither an idiot nor a blind believer and I do think before believing such obvious falsehoods.
Here is my analysis that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) would be the Paraclete of the Gospels as given in the prophecy in John 14:26 by Jesus as the 'comforter'. The Holy Ghost as mentioned in the verse should be taken spiritually as what ghost can come and "teach people all things". The Holy Ghost mentioned in the Gospels which also forms part of the concept of trinity is probably what is mentioned in Quran as "The Spirit" or "Ruh Al-Qudus". This is the Spirit that all prophets are endowed and imbued with for them to reach their station and execute their mission. It is like a heavenly lifeline, or spirituality if you will.
This comforter to come is said to be the teacher of all things. In John 16, verse 7-14 Jesus (pbuh) says this comforter will not speak his own words but only the words that are spoken to him. Again in Dueteronomy 18:18-19 Yahweh says that He will raise a Prophet from thy brethren (the progeny of Ishmael) and "he shall speak unto you all that I shall command and that he shall speak in My name".
The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is from the progeny of Ishmael (pbuh). The Holy Quran declares in 53:4-5 "He does not speak of his own desire, It is nothing but pure revelation, revealed by God". The Holy Quran is the only text that holds the legacy that is purely the world of God. Not a single word in it is attributed as a saying of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Every Surah or chapter of The Holy Quran begins with "In the name of Allah". The teacher of all things and the revealer of the direct words of God makes Muhammad (pbuh) the "Seal of the Prophets" as given in verse 33:40.
Further, the Gospels also tell us where this comforter will come-- an area frequently referenced to as 'Paran' in the Old Testament. Paran (Arabic for Faran) is the area encompassing Mecca and Medina; the birthplace and place of death of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Deuteronomy 33:2 says "The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them;; He shined forth from Mount Paran, and he came with ten thousand of saints; from his right hand went a fiery law for them". The rising from Sinai is Moses (pbuh), Seir is Jesus (pbuh) and Paran is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) also supported by the number 10,000 which was the number of the army that made the bloodless conquest of Mecca. The fiery law is the Holy Quran. This is also the reason why there were Jewish tribes settled in that specific area and why there was a lot of chatter among them about the prophecy of the coming of a Prophet there.
Further, the word "Mahmaddim" is also mentioned in Song of Solomon 5:10-16 as a prophecy of the one to come. There are other references too but I will stop here.
So, only the prophet Muhammad (pbuh), the Seal of the Prophets, fits the prophecy. Who else possibly could? It certainly is not Jesus (pbuh) even if you believe that he is to literally return himself from the Heavens as Jesus (pbuh) himself says in unambiguous terms, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go to away, the Comforter will not come unto you . . .".
If the shoe fits . . .
(The above material was sourced from the booklet "Muhammad in The Bible" published by Majlis Ansarulllah USA, an auxiliary of The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community USA. The material in the booklet is in turn sourced from the book "An Introduction to the study of The Holy Quran" by Mirza Bashirudin Mehmud, Khalifatul Masih II, the second Caliph of the The Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam)So you have no argument?
Here is my analysis that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) would be the Paraclete of the Gospels as given in the prophecy in John 14:26 by Jesus as the 'comforter'. The Holy Ghost as mentioned in the verse should be taken spiritually as what ghost can come and "teach people all things". The Holy Ghost mentioned in the Gospels which also forms part of the concept of trinity is probably what is mentioned in Quran as "The Spirit" or "Ruh Al-Qudus". This is the Spirit that all prophets are endowed and imbued with for them to reach their station and execute their mission. It is like a heavenly lifeline, or spirituality if you will.
It might be the spirit that taught Muhammad but certainly is not Muhammad. Jesus only said about a ghost that comes and help anyone who teaches in is name.
" But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.John 14:26"
That helper is the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him, because it doesn’t see or know him. You know him, because he lives with you and will be in you John 14:17
"For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. Mathew 10:20
This verse proves that spirit is not Muhammad.
This comforter to come is said to be the teacher of all things. In John 16, verse 7-14 Jesus (pbuh) says this comforter will not speak his own words but only the words that are spoken to him. Again in Dueteronomy 18:18-19 Yahweh says that He will raise a Prophet from thy brethren (the progeny of Ishmael) and "he shall speak unto you all that I shall command and that he shall speak in My name".
Deuteronomy is speaking to Israelites telling them that after Moses a new prophet will be raised,
4 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so. 15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”
17 The Lord said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”
The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is from the progeny of Ishmael (pbuh). The Holy Quran declares in 53:4-5 "He does not speak of his own desire, It is nothing but pure revelation, revealed by God". The Holy Quran is the only text that holds the legacy that is purely the world of God. Not a single word in it is attributed as a saying of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Every Surah or chapter of The Holy Quran begins with "In the name of Allah". The teacher of all things and the revealer of the direct words of God makes Muhammad (pbuh) the "Seal of the Prophets" as given in verse 33:40.
Good, but you also know that Muhammad was illiterate and it was Muhammad who spoke to the public and not god? You also know that there is controversy about the authorship of Quran, it was said to be collected by two different people. So the only people who can attest that the present Quran is the true Quran is Muhammad and the people who heard Muhammad not you nor your community.
Further, the Gospels also tell us where this comforter will come-- an area frequently referenced to as 'Paran' in the Old Testament. Paran (Arabic for Faran) is the area encompassing Mecca and Medina; the birthplace and place of death of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Deuteronomy 33:2 says "The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them;; He shined forth from Mount Paran, and he came with ten thousand of saints; from his right hand went a fiery law for them". The rising from Sinai is Moses (pbuh), Seir is Jesus (pbuh) and Paran is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) also supported by the number 10,000 which was the number of the army that made the bloodless conquest of Mecca. The fiery law is the Holy Quran. This is also the reason why there were Jewish tribes settled in that specific area and why there was a lot of chatter among them about the prophecy of the coming of a Prophet there.
Again misinterpretation,
This is the blessing that Moses the man of God pronounced on the Israelites before his death. 2 He said:
“The Lord came from Sinai
and dawned over them from Seir;
he shone forth from Mount Paran.
He came with[a] myriads of holy ones
from the south, from his mountain slopes
It clearly states that Moses is giving blessing to god, he is simply doing a recap. Nothing to do with Jesus nor Muhammad.
Further, the word "Mahmaddim" is also mentioned in Song of Solomon 5:10-16 as a prophecy of the one to come. There are other references too but I will stop here.
Again misinterpretation,
"I charge you, O daughters of Jerusalem, if ye find my beloved, that ye tell him, that I am sick of love.
9 What is thy beloved more than another beloved, O thou fairest among women? what is thy beloved more than another beloved, that thou dost so charge us?
10 My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand.
11 His head is as the most fine gold, his locks are bushy, and black as a raven.
12 His eyes are as the eyes of doves by the rivers of waters, washed with milk, and fitly set.
13 His cheeks are as a bed of spices, as sweet flowers: his lips like lilies, dropping sweet smelling myrrh.
14 His hands are as gold rings set with the beryl: his belly is as bright ivory overlaid with sapphires.
15 His legs are as pillars of marble, set upon sockets of fine gold: his countenance is as Lebanon, excellent as the cedars.
16 His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."
There is no Muhammad here either.
So, only the prophet Muhammad (pbuh), the Seal of the Prophets, fits the prophecy. Who else possibly could? It certainly is not Jesus (pbuh) even if you believe that he is to literally return himself from the Heavens as Jesus (pbuh) himself says in unambiguous terms, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go to away, the Comforter will not come unto you . . .".
If the shoe fits . . .
Ok, Muhammad is the last prophet, what is Ahmad doing here?>>It might be the spirit that taught Muhammad but certainly is not Muhammad. Jesus only said about a ghost that comes and help anyone who teaches in is name. " But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.John 14:26" That helper is the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him, because it doesn’t see or know him. You know him, because he lives with you and will be in you John 14:17 "For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. Mathew 10:20 This verse proves that spirit is not Muhammad.<<
Correct, the Spirit mentioned is not Muhammad. The Spirit interacts with the prophets. Perhaps what is meant by the Paraclete is the Spirit working through the prophet. If we consolidate all the other prophecies I have mentioned, they are pointing to Muhammad (pbuh) who alone has the legacy of speaking "only what is commanded to him" and "In My (Yahweh) name". After all, it has now been 2,000 years plus, where is the Paraclete? We need to think of these things in a rational manner.
>>Deuteronomy is speaking to Israelites telling them that after Moses a new prophet will be raised,<<
Deuteronomy is not speaking to the Israelites, it is speaking to the brethren of the Israelites, which are the progeny of Ishmael (pbuh). You are casting it as 'fellow' Israelites to escape the pointer to Ishmael's progeny. If there is any ambiguity in that it is relieved by Genesis 21:18 "Arise, lift up the lad and hold him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation". The lad here is unambiguously Ishmael (pbuh) who was left in the wilderness with his mother Hager by Prophet Abraham (pbuh).
>>Again misinterpretation, This is the blessing that Moses the man of God pronounced on the Israelites before his death. 2 He said: “The Lord came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with[a] myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes. It clearly states that Moses is giving blessing to god, he is simply doing a recap. Nothing to do with Jesus nor Muhammad.<<
I am familiar with the Christian apologist argument that these are not prophecies of coming prophets from Seir and Paran. It is a poor argument. Christian apologists also believe that Jesus was God, and the Son of God too, they also believe that a ghost is the Paraclete who somehow will come and teach us all things. Is that the kind of thinking you follow? Seir has a broader geographical range of mountains but mostly associated with Palestine which is where Jesus (pbuh) came from. And Paran is even more specific than that in its geographical context. I noticed that you substituted 10,000 for "myriad". The 10,000 number is also in the Song of Solomon prophecy which further attests to support the argument that it is a reference to Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). As far as Paran goes, in Genesis 21:20-21 it says that the lad (Ishmael - pbuh) dwelt in the wilderness of Paran. The names of the twelve sons of Ishmael are given in Genesis 15:13-16 which includes Tema and Keder. The prophet Isaiah in his prophecy of Isaiah 21:13-16 mentions both these names and associates them with "Arabia". The prophecy, if you read the detail, correlates to the first battle between Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)'s forces and the Meccans (sons of Kedar). It predicts the fall of Kedar who were routed in the battle despite being three times larger in army. Eventually, the sons of Kedar would be overcome by an army of 10,000 to which they surrendered.
>>Ok, Muhammad is the last prophet, what is Ahmad doing here?<<
Muhammad (pbuh) is the Seal of the Prophets-- meaning his law and status is final. He himself has given the prophecy of the coming of a prophet whom he termed (allegorically) as "Jesus Son of Mary" or "Mahdi". Verse 3:81 of Holy Quran makes it clear that if a Prophet who is dispensing law is followed by one who comes to reaffirm that law then it is obligatory in covenant to follow and support him. And this agrees wholeheartedly with the verse 61:6 that mentions the coming of Ahmad.However you pick and choose, the fact is there is no mention of “Muhammad” in bible and you have not shown any quote that do so.
And Jesus never said paraclete is a person, it is the spirit that make people say what they should.
According to bible the only one that is to come after Jesus is the paraclete not a person.
Deuteronomy is not speaking to the Israelites, it is speaking to the brethren of the Israelites, which are the progeny of Ishmael (pbuh). You are casting it as 'fellow' Israelites to escape the pointer to Ishmael's progeny. If there is any ambiguity in that it is relieved by Genesis 21:18 "Arise, lift up the lad and hold him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation". The lad here is unambiguously Ishmael (pbuh) who was left in the wilderness with his mother Hager by Prophet Abraham (pbuh).
I had quoted the entire passage; there is no reference to anyone other than the Israel people. What you are doing is simply collecting quotes from here and there and saying that it has a new meaning. If you pick and choose like that, we can even say that bible advocates everyone to commit suicide. Where in Deuteronomy in that chapter does it say that is to Ishmaelite?
I am familiar with the Christian apologist argument that these are not prophecies of coming prophets from Seir and Paran. It is a poor argument. Christian apologists also believe that Jesus was God, and the Son of God too, they also believe that a ghost is the Paraclete who somehow will come and teach us all things. Is that the kind of thinking you follow? Seir has a broader geographical range of mountains but mostly associated with Palestine which is where Jesus (pbuh) came from. And Paran is even more specific than that in its geographical context. I noticed that you substituted 10,000 for "myriad". The 10,000 number is also in the Song of Solomon prophecy which further attests to support the argument that it is a reference to Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). As far as Paran goes, in Genesis 21:20-21 it says that the lad (Ishmael - pbuh) dwelt in the wilderness of Paran. The names of the twelve sons of Ishmael are given in Genesis 15:13-16 which includes Tema and Keder. The prophet Isaiah in his prophecy of Isaiah 21:13-16 mentions both these names and associates them with "Arabia". The prophecy, if you read the detail, correlates to the first battle between Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)'s forces and the Meccans (sons of Kedar). It predicts the fall of Kedar who were routed in the battle despite being three times larger in army. Eventually, the sons of Kedar would be overcome by an army of 10,000 to which they surrendered.
None of it will change the fact that the given passage is addressed by Moses to Israel and is describing how god helped them ("This is the blessing that Moses the man of God pronounced on the Israelites before his death"). It does not matter whether Paren or Seir can mean a lot many things, but in that passage it only means that lord blessed and shone himself to them from Sinai,Seir and Mount Paran. It has nothing to do with Jesus either.
Muhammad (pbuh) is the Seal of the Prophets-- meaning his law and status is final. He himself has given the prophecy of the coming of a prophet whom he termed (allegorically) as "Jesus Son of Mary" or "Mahdi". Verse 3:81 of Holy Quran makes it clear that if a Prophet who is dispensing law is followed by one who comes to reaffirm that law then it is obligatory in covenant to follow and support him. And this agrees wholeheartedly with the verse 61:6 that mentions the coming of Ahmad.
From 61.6, Ahmad means Muhammad. If it is not Muhammad then Muhammad is not a prophet for he is neither mentioned in Bible nor in Quran.
What do you mean by “status is final”?
“He himself has given the prophecy of the coming of a prophet whom he termed (allegorically) as "Jesus Son of Mary" or "Mahdi".”
Where? Jesus son of Mary is one person who was before him and was dead. There cannot be too many Jesus son of Marys. Mahdi and Jesus son are two different persons.I never said that the name "Muhammad" appears in the Bible, it is you who keeps bringing up this assertion. I have been developing my case for prophecies of Muhammad (pbuh) being in The Bible with references and supporting arguments. But perhaps you keep coming back with "there is no word Muhammad in the Bible" because you have no counter argument to make.
To you the "fellows" or the "brethren" of the Israelites are the Israelites themselves. I have given several reference about the lad "Ishmael", Paran, Sons of Kedar, Arabia etc-- yes, there are blessings to the Sons of Israel who accepted and followed the prophecies. But you do not address any of that. You leave it at arbitrarily as a "blessing of Moses"-- because you cannot perhaps. I also feel that your statements are not consistent nor coherent any longer.
Earlier you had asserted in one of your exchanges 61:6 cannot be Muhammad because the name given is clearly Ahmad. The words in the verse even say "his name would be Ahmad". You said it could mean Muhammad Ahmad or Ghulam Ahmad (pbuh) or Riaz Ahmad Gohar. And now you have turned on it to say that it must mean "Muhammad". And then you say, "Muhammad is not mentioned in the Bible nor Quran"-- this is just bare nonsense. The name "Muhammad" is mentioned several times in the Quran.
And then after I made it clear that my belief of the term "Jesus Son of Mary" in the context of the latter-days Messiah is allegorical, you are saying that there can be not more than one Jesus (pbuh) who is dead.
This is a lack of coherence. I believe it is time to close this window of exchange. To you your beliefs, to me mine.This is your words "Further, the word "Mahmaddim" is also mentioned in Song of Solomon 5:10-16 as a prophecy of the one to come. There are other references too but I will stop here.
It appears that you didn't read or didn't understand what I wrote. Whenever you see a word like "10000","Ishmael" or "praised" in the bible, you immediately jump to the conclusion that it is about Muhammad. But if you read the passage, it will show that it has nothing to do with Muhammad. Ishmael and sons are mentioned in bible doesn't mean Muhammad is mentioned too, so I summarize,
1. There is neither Muhammad nor allusion to Muhammad in bible. (you have not provided a single verse in context that is alluded to Muhammad or refers Muhammad)
2. Quran alleges that Jesus spoke about Ahmad (61:6),
a) If it is Ahmad then Muhammad is not a prophet as there is no prophesy indicating a prophet called Muhammad and that Ahmad can be Muhammad Ahmad or any other Ahmads. But then Quran ceases to be a book to be trusted.
b) If it is Muhammad (Ahmad being “more praised”), then there is no prophesy regarding a future prophet and if your criteria is taken, then anyone including Rashad khalifa is a prophet.
“To you the "fellows" or the "brethren" of the Israelites are the Israelites themselves. I have given several reference about the lad "Ishmael", Paran, Sons of Kedar, Arabia etc-- yes, there are blessings to the Sons of Israel who accepted and followed the prophecies. But you do not address any of that. You leave it at arbitrarily as a "blessing of Moses"-- because you cannot perhaps. I also feel that your statements are not consistent nor coherent any longer.”
What you say have nothing to do with the context. The context – Moses is about to die and he was reminding the Israelis how god has shown himself to them and was blessing them and has nothing to do with Ishmalities. All your references are in relation to Abraham only and it has nothing to do with any allusion to Muhammad. Deuteronomy is an entirely different book from Genesis; you cannot simply say a passage from Deuteronomy is dealing with an entirely different thing in Genesis.
“And then after I made it clear that my belief of the term "Jesus Son of Mary" in the context of the latter-days Messiah is allegorical, you are saying that there can be not more than one Jesus (pbuh) who is dead.
You believe, but the hadith says Jesus will return, not as allegory but as a person.
“To you your beliefs, to me mine.
So it all comes to a belief, doesn't it? What happened to the “rational” arguments?
Here I am quoting the two quotes, where in is an allusion to Muhammad?
Deutronomy 33
1Now this is the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the sons of Israel before his death. 2He said, "The LORD came from Sinai, And dawned on them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran, And He came from the midst of ten thousand holy ones; At His right hand there was flashing lightning for them. 3"Indeed, He loves the people; All Your holy ones are in Your hand, And they followed in Your steps; Everyone receives of Your words. 4 the law that Moses gave us, the possession of the assembly of Jacob. 5He was king over Jeshurun when the leaders of the people assembled, along with the tribes of Israel.
God came from Sinai and shown from Seir and Paran and he came with ten thousand holy ones, anyone will undersatnd that the "he" is the same and single person, GOD.
Song of solomon 5: 10 -16, 5 translations
ESV
10 My beloved is radiant and ruddy,
distinguished among ten thousand.
11 His head is the finest gold;
his locks are wavy,
black as a raven.
12 His eyes are like doves
beside streams of water,
bathed in milk,
sitting beside a full pool.[a]
13 His cheeks are like beds of spices,
mounds of sweet-smelling herbs.
His lips are lilies,
dripping liquid myrrh.
14 His arms are rods of gold,
set with jewels.
His body is polished ivory,[b]
bedecked with sapphires.[c]
15 His legs are alabaster columns,
set on bases of gold.
His appearance is like Lebanon,
choice as the cedars.
16 His mouth[d] is most sweet,
and he is altogether desirable.
This is my beloved and this is my friend,
O daughters of Jerusalem.
AKJV
10 My beloved is white and ruddy,
the chiefest among ten thousand.
11 His head is as the most fine gold,
his locks are bushy, and black as a raven.
12 His eyes are as the eyes of doves by the rivers of waters,
washed with milk, and fitly set.
13 His cheeks are as a bed of spices, as sweet flowers:
his lips like lilies, dropping sweet smelling myrrh.
14 His hands are as gold rings set with the beryl:
his belly is as bright ivory overlaid with sapphires.
15 His legs are as pillars of marble, set upon sockets of fine gold:
his countenance is as Lebanon, excellent as the cedars.
16 His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely.
This is my beloved, and this is my friend,
O daughters of Jerusalem.
NIV
10 My beloved is radiant and ruddy,
outstanding among ten thousand.
11 His head is purest gold;
his hair is wavy
and black as a raven.
12 His eyes are like doves
by the water streams,
washed in milk,
mounted like jewels.
13 His cheeks are like beds of spice
yielding perfume.
His lips are like lilies
dripping with myrrh.
14 His arms are rods of gold
set with topaz.
His body is like polished ivory
decorated with lapis lazuli.
15 His legs are pillars of marble
set on bases of pure gold.
His appearance is like Lebanon,
choice as its cedars.
16 His mouth is sweetness itself;
he is altogether lovely.
This is my beloved, this is my friend,
daughters of Jerusalem.
HCSB
10 W My love is fit and strong,[a]
notable among ten thousand.
11 His head is purest gold.
His hair is wavy[b]
and black as a raven.
12 His eyes are like doves
beside streams of water,
washed in milk
and set like jewels.[c]
13 His cheeks are like beds of spice,
towers of[d] perfume.
His lips are lilies,
dripping with flowing myrrh.
14 His arms[e] are rods of gold
set[f] with topaz.[g]
His body[h] is an ivory panel
covered with sapphires.
15 His legs are alabaster pillars
set on pedestals of pure gold.
His presence is like Lebanon,
as majestic as the cedars.
16 His mouth is sweetness.
He is absolutely desirable.
This is my love, and this is my friend,
young women of Jerusalem.
YLT
10 My beloved [is] clear and ruddy, Conspicuous above a myriad!
11 His head [is] pure gold -- fine gold, His locks flowing, dark as a raven,
12 His eyes as doves by streams of water, Washing in milk, sitting in fulness.
13 His cheeks as a bed of the spice, towers of perfumes, His lips [are] lilies, dropping flowing myrrh,
14 His hands rings of gold, set with beryl, His heart bright ivory, covered with sapphires,
15 His limbs pillars of marble, Founded on sockets of fine gold, His appearance as Lebanon, choice as the cedars.
16 His mouth is sweetness -- and all of him desirable, This [is] my beloved, and this my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem!You should have just asked instead of copying in 4 different translations. "Mahmadim" is a hebrew word in the original text of the Hebrew bible. It is in Song of Solomon 5:16. You will find it in any transliteration or just Google "Mahmadim Song of Solomon". The reference to Mahmadim has been a matter of debate between Jewish/Christian and Ahmadi-Muslim scholars for decades, no one has denied that the text is true. Mahmadim, one can say, is a derivative of Muhammad.
Again, I repeat that I am presenting a case. So all the references to Paran, Ishmael (pbuh), Teman and Keder, brethren of the Israelites, ten thousand saints etc. should be taken as such for consideration. Perhaps you should build and present your case instead to trying to shoot down mine. So where is Paran? Who are the ten thousand? Where is the great nation to be raised from the lad Ishmael (pbuh)? Who is Mahmadim? Put forth a case, if you can.
I can't comprehend your criteria on Quran 61:6. The prophecy is about a Messenger to come after Jesus (pbuh) whose name will be Ahmad. Nowhere does it stipulate that Ahmad (pbuh) is the only Messenger to come. Muhammad(pbuh) is the Seal of the Prophets by the statement of the Quran itself. So the only legitimate way known to reconcile it is that Ahmad (pbuh) must be Second Coming of Christ as the prophecy is being dispensed by Jesus (pbuh). That indeed is rational-- your assertion that if anyone is to return it would be the same Jesus (pbuh) from Palestine 2,000 years who was bodily raised to heaven is, indeed, irrational.You should have just asked instead of copying in 4 different translations.
I copied all those translations to show that there is no Muhammad there and for you to understand what is written. Song of songs is simply a love poem, nothing to do with any prophesy.
"Mahmadim" is a hebrew word in the original text of the Hebrew bible. It is in Song of Solomon 5:16. You will find it in any transliteration or just Google "Mahmadim Song of Solomon".
Isn’t this ”I never said that the name "Muhammad" appears in the Bible” your words then?
It is Hebrew word just like Muhammad is an Arabic word. If I translate “he is praised” into 6th century Arabic, it will read as he is muhammad, will that make it a reference to Muhammad? The words are similar because Hebrew and Arabic are very closely related languages. The word in that passage only means sweet, it simply being a poem
The reference to Mahmadim has been a matter of debate between Jewish/Christian and Ahmadi-Muslim scholars for decades, no one has denied that the text is true. Mahmadim, one can say, is a derivative of Muhammad.
Mahammadim is not a name but a word.
Again, I repeat that I am presenting a case. So all the references to Paran, Ishmael (pbuh), Teman and Keder, brethren of the Israelites, ten thousand saints etc. should be taken as such for consideration. Perhaps you should build and present your case instead to trying to shoot down mine. So where is Paran? Who are the ten thousand? Where is the great nation to be raised from the lad Ishmael (pbuh)? Who is Mahmadim? Put forth a case, if you can.
One thing no one knows where Paran is. Though muslims claim it is in Mecca most people agree that it is in Sinai. In the context, it is said god shone from Paran. Moses is repeating the routes of exodus paths, so it doesn't matter even if Paran is in China. He used it in past tense not as prophesy. It only means how god showed them his glory. The ten thousand is that GOD came with ten thousand holy ones, angels if you please, I wish you are not saying that Muhammad is god. Ismael, kedar are all biblical, but that will not make it a prophesy nor a reference for Muhamamd but simply a description of what happened in the past during the time of Abraham, exodus and Judah. I don’t have to make a case, I'm showing you how your case is full of holes and why it doesn’t hold water.
I can't comprehend your criteria on Quran 61:6. The prophecy is about a Messenger to come after Jesus (pbuh) whose name will be Ahmad. Nowhere does it stipulate that Ahmad (pbuh) is the only Messenger to come. Muhammad(pbuh) is the Seal of the Prophets by the statement of the Quran itself. So the only legitimate way known to reconcile it is that Ahmad (pbuh) must be Second Coming of Christ as the prophecy is being dispensed by Jesus (pbuh).
According to bible only paraclete will come after Jesus and many false prophets. So Quran made up a prophesy as from Jesus. So that prophesy is intended to show that Muhammad is the prophet. If that is about Ahmad then there is no prophesy to say that Muhammad is the promised prophet. In that case you will have to believe everyone who claims himself to be a prophet and argue along the lines of bible/quran, so will you?
Again, Ahmad is not Mirza alone but I gave you two other Ahmads who had similar views. Why then you do not believe them? Or are you content to make the same arguments against them as the arguments by muslims against yours?
That indeed is rational-- your assertion that if anyone is to return it would be the same Jesus (pbuh) from Palestine 2,000 years who was bodily raised to heaven is, indeed, irrational.
Here there is no question of rationality; I am quoting what is written in bible and quran/hadith. Both can be wrong?
The Song of Solomon, I would assert, is not a love song or poem. Holy scripture does not cater to love songs. Song of Solomon is speaking to the ‘highly praised one’ meaning “Muhammad” (pbuh). We see this praise in the Isaiah verse I’ve already shared and also Habakkuk (3:3-7) is in the same vein where Paran is also mentioned. Below is text from a Hubpages user Ahmad Usman’s discussion forum who presents several compelling reasons why Song of Solomon would be dedicated to the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)
>>In the 5th chapter of the Shir haShirim ( שיר השירים ), which is one of the five megilot or Sacred Scrolls that are part of the Hebrew Bible or for short the "Song of Solomon" (also called "Song of Songs"). That chapter is giving a prophecy about an individual to come, a mystery man.
Song of Songs 5:15 compares this prophetic mystery man to the land of "Lebanon" which is the land of the Arabs. This implies that the mystery man would be an Arab. Verse 15 of the NIV Bible says: “His appearance is like Lebanon", so this is an Arabic gentleman (or Arab looking).
Verse 11 says: "his head is as the most fine gold, his locks are wavy, and black as a raven". Verse 10 describes this man as being "radiant and ruddy" which means he was slightly light-skinned with a rosy color. This physical description matches exactly with the authentic Islamic sources. Sahih Al Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 747, says Muhammad was slightly light skinned, with a rosy color (and has the same hair as is mentioned in verse 11)
Song of Songs 5:10 says: "My beloved is white and ruddy, pre-eminent above ten thousand." This is a prophecy of Prophet Muhammad as he conquered Mecca. It is a well known historically documented fact that in the year 630 CE Muhammad entered Mecca as the leader of an army of "ten thousand men".
In reading the English translation of Song of Songs 5:16 it finishes the description by saying: "He is altogether lovely" but what most people don't know is that the name of that man was given in the original megilot. Here is the name written in ancient Hebrew as it appears in verse sixteen: מחמד . It is read as : "Mahammad".
Hebrew: חִכּוֹ, מַמְתַקִּים, וְכֻלּוֹ, מַחֲמַדִּים; זֶה דוֹדִי וְזֶה רֵעִי, בְּנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִָם.
English: His mouth is most sweet; yea, he is ALTOGETHER LOVELY. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.
There is a plural used together with this Hebrew word, with
the plural it’s pronounced “Mahamadd-im”. The ending letters 'im' is a plural of respect, majesty and grandeur for God’s prophet, just as in the word Eloh-im.
According to Ben Yehuda's Hebrew-English Dictionary, it is correctly pronounced as "Mahammad".
If you don't believe me, go to these translator links, paste the name מחמד and then translate it into English. You will see that מחמד is translated as "Muhammad".
http://www.freetranslation.com/
http://worldlingo.com/en/products_servi … lator.html
You can also see and listen to the Song of Songs in its original form, in Hebrew where Muhammad is mentioned by name in the below link (please notice the "im" in Hebrew is a plural of respect):
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3005.htm
<<
Further, below is an extract from the blog of the Muslim-Jewish Community. Notice that there is an actual Jewish Rabbanical source that affirms the identity of the ‘goy godol’ (great nation) that was to be raised through the lad Ishmael (pbuh) was the Islamic nation.
>>
Linguistically, the word maHaMaDim (מַחֲמֵדּים) as a Hebrew noun, is originally formed from consonantal trilateral root, H-M-D (חמד), namely ‘H’ (heth), ‘M’ (mem), and ‘D’ (dalet); and from the same root, other similar Hebrew words - as Haim Shachter, a Hebrew lexicographer of Israel says - are literally derived and constructed, such as HaMaD (to desire, to covet, to praise), neHeMaD (to be desirable),HaMuD (pleasant, desirable), HeMDah (desire, or object of desire),HeMDat (desire, or object of desire), HaMDanut (covetousness),HeMDanī (lustful/covetous)[3], maHaMeD (the Desired One), maHaMaD (the Praised One), maHaMMeD (the Desired One/ the Praised One), or muHaMMaD (the Praised One), and the plural forms or the superlative forms of these words are maHaMaDim, maHaMMaDim, maHaMeDim, maHaMMeDim or muHaMMaDim whichhaving the same semantics, namely ‘the Most Praised One’). But, the writer thinks that Hebrew plural word maHaMaDim מַחֲמֵדּים (the Most Praised One) in the Sefer Shīr ha-Shirim can be read in four versions,maHaMaDim (מַחֲמַדִים), maHaMMaDim (מַחֲמַּדִים), muHaMeDim(מֻחֲמֵדִים), and muHaMMaDim (מֻחֲמַּדִים). When we are writing in Hebrew, these Hebrew plural words are constructed from the same consonants, M-H-M-D-Y-M (מחמדים), namely ‘M’ (mem), ‘H’ (heth), ‘M’ (mem), ‘D’ (dalet), ‘Y’ (yod), and ‘M’ (mem). The only differences of these plural words are the use of vowels when pronouncing the words themselves. In the ancient Masoretic Hebrew manuscripts, there were no vowels. The readers then decided on their own which vowels to add in ‘a’ (phatah), ‘e’ (tzireq), ‘u’ (qubutz), and ‘ּ’ (dagesh) to make the double consonant. Thus, in the Hebrew context, maHaMaDim ormaHaMMaDim or muHaMMaDim (lit. ‘Praised One the Great’) is a person who will bring the HeMDah or HeMDat (desire/praise) of all nations and SHaLoM (peace), as well as meNaHeM (the Counselor) is the one who will bring the NeHaMat or NeHaMah (consolation) of Israel.
The Biblical verses, however, confirm that Muhammad is the promised prophet in the light of rabbinic sources, and to understand the Sefer Beresyit (Genesis 17:20; 21:18), in the Midrash Bereshit Rabbah,there is an ancient rabbinic text, spoken by Rabbi Bachya, citing from Rabbi Chananel. He said: ‘we see from the prophecy in this verse,sheneim ‘asar Nesīim (twelve Leaders), that 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became goy gadol (a great nation) with the rise of Islam in 624 C.E., through this period, Ishmael hoped anxiously, until finally the promise was fulfilled and they dominated the world. We, descendants of Isaac, for whom the fulfillment of the promises made to us is delayed due to our sins should surely anticipate the fulfillment of God’s promises and not despair.’
<<
What needs to be taken note of here is that this case and argument is strong because we have historical legacy that we can reconcile to. Your assertions that Paran is merely an exodus route and the ten thousand would be angels remains in the realm of the arbitrary. Therefore it is weak and does not have a place in real debate. You need to build your case with acceptable historical legacy and references. After all, Allah’s covenant to Abraham was that Abraham would be the father of mankind. That covenant remains incomplete without the Muslim world. And no one denies that the Muslims are the progeny of Ishmael (pbuh), perhaps you deny it. Or perhaps you assert that 4,000 years on, the covenant still awaits fulfillment.
By means of consolidation and the weight of evidence, we thereby conclude that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Paraclete of the Gospels.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Where in the Bible does it say that only the paraclete can come after Jesus (pbuh)? What it says is that the paraclete will come after Jesus (pbuh). Muhammad (pbuh) is abundantly prophecized in the Bible as I have shown with many references. He is the founder of Islam and Seal of the Prophets as accepted by all Muslims. Verse 61:6 has its own context as Muhammad himself has prophecised of the coming of a Mahdi/Messiah after him.
You seem to seek technical injunctions or ‘holes’ as you put it in attempts to shoot down my case as evidently you don’t have one of your own. This is more apparent when you assert that why don’t I believe in the other Ahmads known to have claimed to be the Mahdi i.e. Muhammad Ahmad and Riaz Ahmad Gohar. This is a bizarre, terribly irrational and ridiculous statement that one should believe in many persons to be the same prophet. False claimants have always existed especially when real prophets have appeared. What one should assert is to make careful and thoughtful examination to make a selection. But since you have brought this up, allow me to offer some perspective.
Both, Muhammad Ahmad and Riaz Ahmad actually have no claim to prophethood. That is because in popular Muslim thinking, the Messiah and Mahdi are two different persons where Mahdi is not a prophet. We Ahmadi-Muslims say that the traditions are somewhat distorted and Imam Mahdi (meaning guided leader) is an expression of a religious leader sent by God. Both, Messiah and Mahdi, refer to the same person. If you read through the traditions in some instances the Messiah is leading the charge against the Anti-Christ or the forces of evil while in other traditions the Mahdi leads the charge, symbolically speaking. Ghulam Ahmad (pbuh) explained it. Riaz Ahmad and Muhammad Ahmad, by virtue of their own popular beliefs, never explained where the other heavenly personage is who was supposed to co-exist with them in prophecy. Riaz Ahmad is complicated—he may have claimed to be Messiah too but disowned any prophethood whereas the traditions are clear that the one to come is a prophet. Riaz even publicly said that he won’t claim to be Mahdi because it is illegal to make such claims in Pakistan—does not sound like someone who feels God is with them. His group of followers who call themselves “MFI” (Messiah Foundation International) do not even claim to be an Islamic sect or congregation but leave it at a general universalism where all can come and go as they please.
I never really make arguments against them because the topic never comes up. I suppose that they are just not taken seriously. The Ahmadiyya movement, on the other hand, is taken very very seriously. Movements and campaigns many of which vowed that they will not rest till they have seen through our destruction started from when the movement was launched. In 1956 Pakistan’s chief cleric Maulana Maududi, a known favorite of The Saudis, rallied the nation with a hate-campaign that resulted in riots and the murder of 2,000 Ahmadi-Muslims. The army had to roll into the streets to and impose martial law. Maududi was sentenced to death and then rescued by The Saudis. The Saudis/Wahabbis then organized the World Mulsim League in 1974 to get an official unison and edict from Muslim clerics of all sects against The Ahmadiyya Movement. Then they pushed the Pakistani government to make a constitutional amendment to declare us non-Muslims.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUCnAjD_kVM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECdBnE-Kj7k
Yet, despite all the opposition . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HozuBwjnddg
----------------------------------------------------
So when it comes to scripture, you abandon rationality? By the way that’s not how Jesus (pbuh) explained second advents. He refuted such notions as the Jews believing that Elijah (pbuh) is to return from the heavens in chariots of fire. He gave a rational interpretation that John The Baptist (pbuh) had returned in the power and glory of Elijah (pbuh). The irrationality that you are now pandering to for the sake of argument are popular notions, not scripture.Now do I have to quote the whole song to say it is a song?
"He is muhammad" in 6th century Arabic can mean that his name is Muhammad or he is praised, you are using the same fallacy of equivocation.
Song of Solomon has nothing to do with Isaiah or Habakkuk.
"So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself." Mathew 27:5
"Right!" Jesus told him. "Do this and you will live!" Luke 10:28
See Jesus is asking us to commit suicide, your arguments is also like this. Simply quoting from here and there to say what you want.
LORD, I have heard the report about You and I fear. O LORD, revive Your work in the midst of the years, In the midst of the years make it known; In wrath remember mercy. 3God comes from Teman, And the Holy One from Mount Paran. Selah. His splendor covers the heavens, And the earth is full of His praise. 4His radiance is like the sunlight; He has rays flashing from His hand, And there is the hiding of His power.… Habakkuk 3:3-7
Again describing god, not any human.
And Mount Paran is in Arabia ONLY according to ISLAMIC tradition which was created after 6th century.
His head is purest gold??? Muhammad's head is pure gold too?
If you don't believe me, go to these translator links, paste the name מחמד and then translate it into English. You will see that מחמד is translated as "Muhammad
From the translation you gave, His mouth is most sweet; yea, he is ALTOGETHER LOVELY, you can understand that it means altogether lovely. Mahhamad = ALTOGETHER LOVELY
"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation."
"Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation."
Prophesy regarding Ishmael, nothing to do with Muhammad.
What needs to be taken note of here is that this case and argument is strong because we have historical legacy that we can reconcile to. Your assertions that Paran is merely an exodus route and the ten thousand would be angels remains in the realm of the arbitrary.
That is what is written in bible and it says GOD came with 10000 holy ones, and SHOWN himself.
If you want to show a prophesy show me where it is written that a PROPHET CALLED MUHAMMAD WILL COME, not some cherry picking and mistranslation.
Muhammad (pbuh) is abundantly prophecized in the Bible as I have shown with many references.
No, all you have done is simply reasserting that Muhammad is mentioned in bible without showing a single concrete sentence where it is written like that. All you do you when ever you see a word 10000 or Ishmael or Paran, assuming it as of Muhammad and want me to agree such.
This is a bizarre, terribly irrational and ridiculous statement that one should believe in many persons to be the same prophet
Can you site any single reason why your Ahamad should be considered as true while all others false? All these so called prophets are false, evident by your attempt to misrepresent, mistranslate and convolute everything in bible to show your prophet as true.
If you read through the traditions in some instances the Messiah is leading the charge against the Anti-Christ or the forces of evil while in other traditions the Mahdi leads the charge, symbolically speaking. Ghulam Ahmad (pbuh) explained it.
Explained? Leading charge is equal to explaining it?
False claimants have always existed especially when real prophets have appeared
Got any single reason to say that yours is not the false one?
We Ahmadi-Muslims say that the traditions are somewhat distorted and Imam Mahdi (meaning guided leader) is an expression of a religious leader sent by God.
You have to distort the traditions to make your prophet true, while the followers of others do not have to, that itself make your prophet suspect in addition to all other twisting you do to bible and quran.
The Ahmadiyya movement, on the other hand, is taken very very seriously.
You forget that one of the Ahamad I mentioned is suspected to be still in Pakistani Jail.
So when it comes to scripture, you abandon rationality?
No, when it comes to scripture I say what it says instead of twisting its words to fit what I want it to fit and then reject all the scriptures based on rationality.
By the way that’s not how Jesus (pbuh) explained second advents. He refuted such notions as the Jews believing that Elijah
We are talking about the second coming of Jesus. Bible and Quran/hadith clearly says that Jesus will come again.
Very well, you have made your arguments and I have made mine. Let us leave it at that. My response is same as my previous post. No point in running circles, gets tiresome and unappealing.
According to you yourself you had to distort the traditions (though you put it as traditions being distorted and you corrected it).
You had to misinterpret, pick and choose and misquote.
Instead of trying such deceptive techniques, instead of relying on the so called prophets who are actually the agents of Aeon, why can't you rely on yourself and seek god?
Just like one man's Messiah is another man's false prophet, and one man's freedom fighter being another man's terrorist, so it is with interpretations. I carefully choose language and position it as "this is the interpretation we accept", or "we believe these to be distorted"
Accusing each other of deception has no place in debate. Usually when someone does that it is more a sign of defeat.
To me the prophets are examples and representatives of Allah, I have recognized and accepted them as such. So it is important for me to follow them. But if someone wants to go on their own, it is between them and their Creator.I agree it is interpretation, but what is the basis of accepting a particular interpretation and rejecting others?
Accusing each other of deception has no place in debate. Usually when someone does that it is more a sign of defeat.
I didn't simply accuse, I substantiated, didn't I?
You said tradition is distorted and someone came and corrected it, but tradition can never be distorted (either it agree with facts or do not, and the fact is exodus and most of the Jesus story is fiction and we know painfully little about Muhammad outside of the tradition), the one who "correct" it is actually the one who distorts it.
Mahammadim as Muhammad and Mount Paran in Arabia are later Muslim invention to find Muhammad in bible, just like Christians trying to find Jesus in Isaiah. I not only quoted the text, I quoted it from different translators, you were doing the cherry picking. Remember, you still haven't provided a single concrete statement from the bible, but only distortions by Muslims.
To me the prophets are examples and representatives of Allah, I have recognized and accepted them as such. So it is important for me to follow them. But if someone wants to go on their own, it is between them and their Creator.
You do not. You only recognize some prophets, you reject others.
God do not send prophets. It is tyrants who are selective, send representatives and want to be worshiped, not god. For god, all his creatures are equal.
My basis is first of all rationality. Matters would unfold according to the known laws of physics and spirituality, and according to precedent. Fairy tales are for books and movies. A good interpretations or case should be supported from several sources and more than one dimension if possible.
Your are substantiating in your mind, and I in mine. Someone else may serve as the judge.
Why can't tradition be distorted? If tradition is against the laws of life and physics then it is naturally distorted. The majority of Muslims and Christians believe that Jesus (pbuh) will literally descend from the Heavens with angels. If most people say 2+2=5 then it is still wrong. In Matthew 24:30 it says that "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory."
Why will "all the peoples" mourn? If Jesus (pbuh) comes back literally and whoever's side he takes (Muslim or Christian) then at least half the peoples should be happy about it. But they will all mourn, because they all follow distortion, and they will all suffer disappointment.
You don't want to believe in the prophets, so be it. I evaluate the evidence for myself, you do it for yourself."Matters would unfold according to the known laws of physics and spirituality, and according to precedent"
What is the laws of spirituality?
If laws of physics is obeyed you will know that the exodus is wrong for it disobeys laws of physics. And as the bible states this falsehood, the rest of the bible becomes equally falsehood. As Quran and NT supports the OT, both becomes falsehood.
If rationality is followed, you will know that god cannot select a few persons and expect the whole humanity to believe them.
If laws of physics is followed, god will not intervene in mundane earthly matters as it will defy the laws of physics.
Tradition can be distorted but there will be none who can say it is. Anyone who claim otherwise is uttering falsehood as he has no way of knowing the past. So we can only see whether it is factual (obeys the law) or not.
You don't want to believe in the prophets, so be it. I evaluate the evidence for myself, you do it for yourself.
Do you believe in the prophets? No you merely selected some based on whether you or your forefathers liked a particular charismatic preacher. The selection is purely arbitrary.
So either reject the whole scriptures, as it disobeys the known laws, or accept it in its entirety. You are accepting some and rejecting others (including prophets) on arbitrary basis. After accepting some, you merely interpret and distort the rest of the scriptures and tradition to fit your view.
Laws of spirituality are things like if you follow certain mores like stealing and lying, it will deteriorate you as a moral human being and possibly lead you to greater degrees of wrong and evil, and vice versa.
How does the exodus defy the laws of physics? There is a very rational explanation for it. If you find a certain falsehood in the Bible (i.e. Jesus being God) then why would you cast the entire book wrong without studying it. We can explain the falsehood.
Tradition is distorted where it is irrational. Where we can verify its authenticity with the fulfilment of prophecies, we accept it—it is a sound criteria, and a logical one.
I do believe in all the prophets, those I know of and those I do not know of. At least one of the prophets I follow is not accepted by most of my forefathers. I only accept the Holy Quran in its entirety as it is proven by the information in it that it can be only from God and it is sealed and protected by God. The others I have to reconcile to Quran or history or rationality or a some number of dimensions to reasonably arrive at the authenticity of whatever portion. What is wrong with that?
Accept entirely, or reject entirely? Does not come across as intelligent or reasonable.Laws of spirituality are things like if you follow certain mores like stealing and lying, it will deteriorate you as a moral human being and possibly lead you to greater degrees of wrong and evil, and vice versa.
The “holy scriptures” are full of lies. So that does not follow the laws of spirituality.
How does the exodus defy the laws of physics? There is a very rational explanation for it. If you find a certain falsehood in the Bible (i.e. Jesus being God) then why would you cast the entire book wrong without studying it. We can explain the falsehood. .
Exodus defy all laws of physics and biology. Haven’t you ever read it? A single example, a bush with flames that is not burning can tell a lot. Others in the bible are that earth is flat, earth stopped during war, the parting of sea........
Who told you I haven’t studied it?
If they wrote a lie, how can they be believed in any other thing? Does god lie? His prophets lie? The lies are example that the book was not guided by god and was written by humans(?) with a particular agenda and they have no qualms in lying if it suit their agenda.
Tradition is distorted where it is irrational. Where we can verify its authenticity with the fulfilment of prophecies, we accept it—it is a sound criteria, and a logical one. .
You haven’t sighted a single straight forward prophesy to show its fulfillment. You are doing what the followers of Notradamus did, trying to explain away inconsistencies and contradictions. Not only the tradition nor your correction follows ration. The bible is full of lies. Quran is based on bible and is repeating the same.
I do believe in all the prophets, those I know of and those I do not know of. At least one of the prophets I follow is not accepted by most of my forefathers. I only accept the Holy Quran in its entirety as it is proven by the information in it that it can be only from God and it is sealed and protected by God. The others I have to reconcile to Quran or history or rationality or a some number of dimensions to reasonably arrive at the authenticity of whatever portion. What is wrong with that? .
Quran is not proven as you claim, it is just the rehash of bible with some additional in formation no one can verify, which defy logic and is with contradictions. Quran and hadiths are tradition too, so why don't you try to correct that/.
Then why don’t you follow Baha Ullah, Guru nanak……..? Remember you had to distort tradition to fit to your prophet. If you take the pains, any tradition can be distorted to fit our need.
Don’t talk about rationality, if you take rationality even god’s existence will be in doubt.
Accept entirely, or reject entirely? Does not come across as intelligent or reasonable. .
Yes, if it is accepted that there is no divine behind any of these. Or the divine (your divine) is a liar.
I believe the holy books to be true. The prophets have spoken the truth. See how the Covenant of Abraham has been fulfilled before our very eyes! He is now the father of mankind. As Jesus (pbuh) would say, “this is the Lord’s doing, and it is beautiful in our eyes.” And there is so much more like this.
Yes, distortions would creep in over time, and those in authority would have abused and misused. And there may be things we don’t fully understand. And now we have the Holy Quran, the word of God sealed and locked. You and I can argue over it all our lives, but when the world scientific community speaks then one should humble to it . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUUPYs0gElU
As I have already repeated a myriad times, accept it if you will or reject it if you will.I believe the holy books to be true. The prophets have spoken the truth. See how the Covenant of Abraham has been fulfilled before our very eyes! He is now the father of mankind. As Jesus (pbuh) would say, “this is the Lord’s doing, and it is beautiful in our eyes.” And there is so much more like this.
Now what happened to laws of physics, logic and such?
Why only the holy book of jews and its derivatives and not others?
So it finally boils down to this, you got something and "believe" it with all your might and accept anything that justify it and reject everything that questions it?
Yes, distortions would creep in over time, and those in authority would have abused and misused. And there may be things we don’t fully understand. And now we have the Holy Quran, the word of God sealed and locked. You and I can argue over it all our lives, but when the world scientific community speaks then one should humble to it . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUUPYs0gElU
As I have already repeated a myriad times, accept it if you will or reject it if you will.
That video is nothing but a lame excuse, and I can give you any number of quotes, which says it is otherwise. And can get you Hindus arguing with quotes from their holy books stating Big Bang is in their holy scripture. in fact, if I read correctly, a recent controversy in India was about the knowledge of aeroplanes and virus-proof suits construction being in their scripture. Such apologetic tactics is of no use, it is simply creative reinterpretation. Most physicist agree that the world was formed from singularity and humans evolved from earlier animals and there was no one behind it, so do you believe it?
Do you want to really examine your scriptures and traditions scientifically?
Then Adam to Moses are nothing but myths rehashed from earlier near eastern ones. Jesus is a story created by Paul and Mark. And the majority of stories in Islam relating to Muhammad are just that stories, as evidenced by the rejection of the major chunk of hadiths by Bukhari.
So what do you choose? Do you accept the science or do you want to reject it because it doesn't fit your preconceived notions?
Ok, let's see you bring your proofs. So, along the same quality of scientists and in very much the same way, please post your materials where real scientists are declaring that a scripture other than Quran has to be divine because of the quality of the scientific information in it from over a thousand years ago. It doesn't matter what you say about the Hindu texts, a scientist has to come forth and say that it is compelling evidence.
Or if you are going to put up material by scientists against the validity of the Quran as a divine document, then it should address those same verses and topics and prove that the information given is wrong and cannot be scientifically valid. No basic, over-arching subjective statement.Wrong on two counts, one scientists do not compare scriptures.
Second it is apologetics who does such things.
There is no top scientists in your "youtube" video. have you got any scientific papers?
Similar to your "proof"
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ … oof-suits/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kevMEJZJmcM
http://www.ivarta.com/columns/OL_040312.htm
http://www.hindu-blog.com/2008/04/hindu … osmic.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXDVRr1Ucr4
Now regarding the apologetic technique
two from quran
Then He turned to the heavens when it was smoke...
[Noble Quran 41:11]
Because the earth and the heavens above (the sun, moon, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) have been formed from this same 'smoke' we conclude that the earth and the heavens were one connected entity. Then out of this homogeneous 'smoke', they formed and separated from each other. God said in the Quran:
there was no "heaven" and "smoke".
Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?.. [Noble Quran 21:30]
Professor Alfred Kroner is one of the world's well-known geologists. He is a Professor of the Department of Geosciences, University of Mainz, Mainz, Germany. He said, "Thinking where Muhammad came from .. I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advance technological methods that this is the case." (From 'This is the Truth' [video]). Also he said, "Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics fourteen hundred years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind, for instance, that the earth and the heavens had the same origin.
See how the apologetic try to manipulate the words to fit "his" knowledge? That statement is nothing but a rehash of biblical statement and lack any specifics
There was nothing more in quran/bible than that was known when it was written down. The so called "proofs" are simply apologetic manipulations of the words to fit modern understanding ,for the statements in Quran/bible are so vague that it can be fitted to any discovery. Nostradamus did the same and was more specific. If a new discovery comes, the same words can be twisted to mean something different.
Can you state a single verse that is specific and was quoted by any reputed scientist or scientific journal?
What is there in quran that is scientific?
You may say about the human origin, it is said man was made from a clot, isn't that enough to prove it is wrong (or the earth is egg shaped or the above verses I quoted aready)? Or shall we go into details?
As I said, can you quote an unambiguous scientific truth from Quran/bible that was not known before 8th century?
None of this counts, we are not discussing Vimanas or the theory of ancient flying machines. Nor are we looking for your subjective statements and your views of the tactics of apologetics.
You have to produce unbiased opinion in the same category of authority (whether you agree or disagree with the authority).
If the Vedas has such statements, I do not have a problem with that. I believe it to be a holy book also. I am also familiar with other content in the Vedas that supports the view that it is from the Almighty God.
But we have to stick to the point here. For an adequate rebuttal you have to produce an equal proclamation in favor of another scripture or against the one in question.Neither are we discussing the origin of heavens!!
I have given an adequate proclamation as valid as you gave (by your standard). If you really want to give, give not youtube video but a scientific journal. After all the one I gave is from a scientific congress not from an apologetic site, which are dime a dozen in the net.
I didn't say that the Vedas or any of your holy book depicts accurate science. I said Vedas has as much as quran and both are wrong and simply reinterpretation by the followers.
Say Quran says
Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?.. [Noble Quran 21:30]
Which is the purported scientific statement of quran, which actually is not a scientific one for it is vague and lack any specifics and can be manipulated to mean anything.
Another is that sperm originated near rib(Qur'an 86:7) or humans are made from blood clot (Quran, 23:12-14)....... [Why there are such mistakes, if it is god given? (for obvious reasons I can't quote from youtube, so I had to go to the site they mention.)]
If you want to provide a scientific statement, you provide a statement that is UNAMBIGUOUS which was first revealed in quran, a vague statement manipulated by apologetics as inherent truths won't do.
And an argument from authority, especially one with no credibility (or who has lost credibility for his misleading statements like Keith L Moore or that was manipulated by the editors of the video), will not do.
So instead of quoting spurious authorities, can you quote a single truthful, clear and precise statement in quran dealing with physics, biology or astronomy that was NOT known before 8th century?
There was no such fact was obvious by the fact that only after the discoveries, the words were manipulated to fit the present understanding and no one new it before.
@ Murtaza Abbassi, As-salaamu Alaikum Warehmatullah
The Sahih Hadith reference the term 'Isa Ibne Maryam' which like I said we take to be as a sign or 'Ayaat' symbolically. There are roughly about 90 Hadith many of them Sahih, the subject is well known.
One Sahi Muslim Hadith reference that I have handy is Book 41, #7015 whereby Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) references as the one to come as a 'Isa Nabiullah' (prophet of Allah) four times. If you take this to be literally the same Isa (pbuh) who came to Bani Israeel 2,000 years ago then it makes it difficult to reconcile with verses 5:75 and 3:144 of the Holy Quran which are emphasizing that prophets Muhammad (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh) will live and die like other prophets before them.
We have to reconcile the Hadith to the Quran, not the other way round. The word used in verse 4:157-158 for the 'raising' of Isa is 'Rafaa' which is consistently used in the Holy Quran to mean exalt. If you go to the following hub about 3/4 of the way down there is a section called "The Raising up to Heaven, so what does it mean?" I have given as many references as I know of in the Quran where this word "Rafaa" is applied to prophets and their followers and everywhere the meaning is easily understood to be 'exalt'.
http://amer786.hubpages.com/hub/The-Sec … lam-Part-2
As far as the name 'Ahmad' goes in Surah Al-Saff verse 6, the Holy Quran uses direct names in all its references to prophets and to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Attribute names are used for Allah only which are easily understood as references to God Almighty. Interestingly, the Rasulallah (Messenger of Allah) named Ahmad is given by Hazrat Isa (pbuh) while he defines his own mission as a reaffirming of the Torah. If this is meaningful, which we believe it is, then Ahmad would be a parallel to Isa. And of course, Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh) uses the term Isa Ibne Maryam for the one to come and also in a Saha Sitha Tirmidhi Kitabul Imaan Hadith (Chp 19, page 26) says that his own following will become like the 'Yahud' (Jews). At least that is how we reconcile it.Here is want to know about second paragraph. You are referring me to Hadith Sahih Muslim - Book 41 - #7015
This is that Hadith (http://sunnah.com/muslim/54/136)
Now then you said is Qur'an verse written that our Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and Prophet Esa (AS) would live and die like other prophets, so this line is correct because Prophet Esa (AS) would come in future and after a little period of time he will die, how does it makes different then other Prophet's lives?It is different from the lives of other prophets as no prophet has ever bodily ascended up to Heaven for 2,000+ years and then come down to earth from Heaven to die. Allah has always saved His prophets from their enemies, but never in such a manner. Allah in Holy Quran says his Sunnah (methods) do not change or vary. If verse 3:144 is saying that Messenger before Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh) have passed away then wouldn't Hazrat Isa (pbuh) be included?
Also to consider here is the fact that both prophets Muhammad (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh) warned against false prophets misleading people. If Jesus (pbuh) was to return from the sky in a way that only could be authorized by Allah then the question of false prophets does not even arise, it would be obvious. But they warned against false prophets. Below are another couple of relevant Hadith:
"If Jesus and Moses had been alive, they would have had no choice but to follow me." (Kathir vol II, p 245 and al yawaqit wal Jawahir, part 2, page 24).
"Jesus son of Mary lived for 120 years, and I see myself as only entering upon the beginning of the sixties." (Kanz al Ummal, part 6, p.120).You are using a forgery and he is using a lie perpetrated by someone else, what discussion are you doing?
I can clearly say that you both are on wrong path, you don't even know who is last prophet and don't even believe in words on our Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) so I am stopping here beating my head with wall.
Go to following link if you want to know, if you are right the prove it their.
http://islam.stackexchange.com/question … 8905#18905
I am leaving this nonsense.Making subjective statements like someone is on wrong path or is ignorant while in debate or argument is another way of saying that you are not able to argue the matter, because you really are saying nothing.
I do not follow links. If you write a Hub, I will read it. Make your argument here and provide your references if you are able to. Or else, yes, better you leave.Weren't you reading my replies? There is NO prophet from God, period? First or last doesn't matter.
I do NOT BELIEVE in any HUMAN, who claim himself from god.
The verse in contention is not 3:144 but 61.6
If you do not even know what you argue and cannot understand what you write and all you got is some false arguments copied from some fake sites, I will say, "good riddance".
"He is a liar.This is a forgery. That is falsehood" = "I don't have an argument to make. I got nothing to say"
He is a liar.
Wrong, I called his source a liar, and I have proved that too. If you have cared to read you could have seen that. The blue and black post.
This is a forgery.
Something purported from a person written a more than a century after his death, not seen by any intervening authors, is called forgery and is the opinion of the one who wrote it. Most of your sources are forgeries if not misrepresentations. Even Shahi Bukahari, the first compiler, agree that majority of the hadiths are fake.
That is falsehood" = "I don't have an argument to make. I got nothing to say"
This is falsehood, I debunked your arguments too,
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/77669?p … ost2680677
but you chose to ignore.
Mirza Ghulam Qadiani was nothing but a liar. He was the pithu of British rulers. All his followers called Qadiyani or Ahmadi are declared as Infidels according to the constitution of Islamic Republic of Pakistan
Muslims are declared infidels by Christians, so?
So-called Christians have done plenty of wrong in the past but in modern times they have not amended the constitutions of a government declaring any religious group to infidels and then enacting laws i.e. Ordinance XX in Pakistan in 1987 to persecute with prison terms someone who uses a particular religious greeting or prays in a particular religious manner.
Typically, orthodox (corrupted) religious authority has always opposed and agitated the prophets of God, otherwise they would have to hand over the keys of their kingdoms. No different here, the Wahabbis and their puppets in Pakistan have done their most to put down the movement, including murder. History is not on their side.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (peace be on him) was the Messiah, Mahdi and a great prophet of Allah just as predicted by prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
The corrupt so-called Muslim scholars gathered in the World Muslim league in 1974 as precursor to the Pakistan constitutional amendment to declare Ahmadi Muslims as infidels. They of course had no such heavenly authority and this we believe was the fulfillment of of Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) prophecy that 72 sects would be in the fire and only one will be guided. The Sep 17 1974 issue of Pakistani newspaper Nawa-i-waqt published the headline that all known 72 sects of Islam have united in their opposition to the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam.
Now 35 years later the transcripts of the event have been released by Govt. of Pakistan and it is not news . . .
The following is from the government-issued transcript of the 1974 proceeding.
> The fundamental question put up by the government for deliberation was "What is the status of someone who does not believe in the finality-of-prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) be considered a Muslim"?
> Mirza Nasir Ahmad, the Caliph of the Ahamdiyya Muslim Community (ra) delivered the response in a speech to the Nat'l Assembly over the course of two days (July 22 & 23, 1974). The speech was published in the form of a 200-page book called "Mehzar Nama" and delivered to each member of the assembly. However, the record of this response is expunged from the official transcript that has been released. The Nat'l Assembly document titled "Proceedings of the Special Committee of the Whole House in Camera to Consider the Qadiani Issue" shows the begin date as 5 Aug 1974.
> The proof that "Mehzar Nama" was presented is on page 504 of the transcript document where a scholar named Maulana Mohd Zafar Ahmad Ansari makes the following quote naming the Mehzar Nama: "Sir, I would like to say that this process of detailed explanations that they are conducting should be discouraged, they have already given a detailed response in their Mehzar Nama".
> On the same page 504 (dated 7 Aug 1974), MNA Mohammad Sardar Khan makes the following comment after two days of proceedings in the National Assembly: "I want to bring it to the attention of this honorable House that the main question, I should say, before the special committee or the Assembly is as to what is the status of a person who does not believe in the finality of prophethood. That question or that point is still untouched". To this the Chairman says that the question will be brought up in due course.
> However, on 2 Sep 1974 during the closing sessions, MNA Sardar Anayat-ur-Rehman Khan Abbasi makes the following comment indicating that the fundamental question was never addressed and the scholars of Islam present were unable to provide any rebuttal. He says on the 11th page of that day's transcript: "The response (referring to Mehzar Nama) that they brought before this house, it is a dark spot on our scholars, it is a great charge on them. I believe our scholars should face the public and answer these charges. I have read Mufti sahib's answer and the Taweel Dictionary where he has accumulated his knowledge, I saw it all, read it all, but not for one instance have their charges or their facts been refuted, God knows if they are true or false, if they are false I will accept it but you have not provided any argument . . ."
> The same day (2 Sep 1974) close to the end of the proceedings another MNA Colonel Habib Ahmad laments on page 2712: "I would like to say that all the speeches and arguments that happened here will now come out in the form of books and there will be immense propaganda and future generations will read about this event . . . this was a great challenge for our scholars but not one of them was able to rise up to them . . ."So what you are saying is that you DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH AND THE QURAN? Allah said in the Quran
'This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion'.
This means that the religion is complete and there is nothing to add or take away. How can you accept what you think is fact, that Mirza Ghulam is the Messiah and a prophet??? Does this not impact negatively on your imaan? How can he be the Messiah when it will be Isaah (Jesus) peace and blessings be upon him as detailed in the Quran and hadiths? The time is probably not even near for Imam Mahdi and Isaah (peace be upon Him) to come and you Ahmadyah's believe that he has been and gone? If so then what happened to the whole world becoming Muslim? What happened to Dajjal? Did he also appear and was killed by Mirza Ghulam? What happened to Yajuj and Majuj?
Your belief in Mirza Ghulam goes against Quran and Sunnah if you believe he is the final prophet/messiah and Mahdi. There are still some minor signs left to pass and the major ones to start, one being the emergence of Dajjal who will be killed by Jesus (peace be upon Him). Has Jesus been and gone? Oh, was Jesus (messiah) Mirza Ghulam?
I do not have anything personal against other faiths or believers of other faiths but when it comes to Islam and some of the corruption within it that only people bring, it does not sound good.How can any prophet come after Jesus when it is detailed in bible that none is to come after Jesus?
@BuddiNsense:
In previous posts you have criticized the Quran and the Bible indicating you do not believe or follow any of these scriptures. By what right do you claim faith or belief in any verse of the Bible or Quran? Are you theist? If so, what denomination of theist? or Atheist?
You should clarify your position and standing first-- declare what you are. And then speak from that position only. If true, then it is not right of you to refer to verses in scripture to support a theological view point.That post was not addressed at you, if you take the chronological instead of the threaded in forum you will be able to appreciate it better.
I was using his argument to show him how hollow his argument is.
I am the truth, anal Haq in your version.
My position is simple, either god talk to all or talk to none. God do not need to talk to anyone as he do not need anything. Any one who claims to be from god, if sane, is a conman.
In verse 25:30 of the Holy Quran is a prophecy that people will one day abandon the Quran. The Hadith also have many such prophecies about a time of corruption of Muslims. This implies to the majority, not a minority group like Ahmadiyya. Remember, prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said out of 73, 72 will be in the fire—meaning they will be corrupted.
Verse 62:2 says that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) not only recited the signs and verses of Allah but he purified people too, which is a function of prophets. Prophets cure spiritual diseases and evils for people who accept and follow them. Verse 62:4 says that a Messenger will be raised again in the future. And then 62:5 gives example of a people who act like how the Jews abandoned the teachings of the Torah. In the 72 vs 1 Hadith, Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) says his followers will act like the Jews did.
Verse 61:6 says that Jesus (pbuh) brought no new law but only reaffirmed The Torah, but he was a Messenger of Allah. So would you say it is okay to reject Jesus (pbuh)? What does it matter to you if the prophet to come is the same Isa (pbuh) who lived in Palestine 2,000 years ago or Ahmad (pbuh) from Qadian 100 years ago? According to you, there is no longer any need for a prophet because religion is complete no matter how much corruption and evil enters into the Muslims. What is the purpose of Isa (pbuh) coming back? To fight a monster called Dajjal and kill him???
Dajjal is probably a masonic secretive society that has a lot of power to influence events and does mischief in the world. Given that most people feel 9-11 was a deception this may be one indication that Dajjal exists since Dajjal means deceiver. The Great Seal on the US One Dollar bill has the masonic all-seeing one-eye on top of a pyramid and underneath is the inscription “New World Order”.
Yajuj and Majuj are the Western alliance vs the Soviet alliance world rivalry which many people now believe, per current events, is coming back. Even Sheikh Imran Hosein now believes that these prophecies are symbolic, not literal (see video below). If they are not literal then second coming of Jesus is symbolic, just like the Quran in verses 13:35 and 18:54 explains that many things are explained as “Misaals”—examples, similes, symbols.
https://youtu.be/sdAjdzNNqiY
Take a look around you, where do you see the corruption?Some of the minor and major signs yet to pass:
Women will outnumber men......eventually 50:1 (Bukhari, Muslim, & Ahmad)
The conquest of Constantinople by the Muslims (Ahmad)
The conquest of India by the Muslims, just prior to the return of Jesus, son of Mary (peace be upon both of them)(Ahmad, an-Nisa'i, at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
The sun will rise from it's place of setting
He (Imam Mahdi) will distribute wealth equally and will do justice to the public…
He will manifest the religion in its true form, so that if the Messenger of Allah (Blessings and peace from Allah be upon him) were alive he would have confirmed it. Thus, in his time there will not remain but the (true) religion purified from the (people's) views…. Isa, son of Mariyam (AS) will come down to him, near the white minaret in the eastern part of Damascus …
"Three places in the world will sink and be swallowed up by the earth. One in the west, one in the east, and one in the Saudi Arabian peninsula." [This may refer to a series of giant, epic earthquakes.]
"There will be such an abundance of wealth that people will not be able to find recipients for zakat."
If just one day of the life of this world remains, Almighty Allah will prolong it and someone from my Ahl al-Bayt will come. His name will be like mine. His father's name will be like my father's name. HE WILL FILL THE WORLD THAT IS FULL OF OPPRESSION AND EVILS WITH JUSTICE AND MERCY. (Abu Dawud and Tirmidhi, Great Hadith Collection, Rudani, Vol. 5, p. 365)
"Isa (Jesus) will come at the time of Al-Dajjal and al-Mahdi as well. He will descend at the time of Fajr prayer on a masjid in Damascus, the capital of Syria. He is of medium height, red-faced, and his hair is as if he just took a shower. He will call people back to Islam, but he will also be a military leader. The People of the Book will revert to Islam, and wealth will be super-abundant. Isa will break the cross, kill the swine, and personally slay Al-Dajjal. He will stay on Earth for a long time thereafter, and then die."
(Can you get any clearer detail than all this? Just because Imran Hosein says this is all symbolic and not literal doesn't mean he knows more than Allah. I've heard some of his talks and they are very descriptive but he seems to act like he knows everything for sure. It doesn't mean we should believe what he says but we should ponder upon it. We shouldn't be like sheep.)
I do not believe Dajjal has appeared, although i know for sure that he was alive at the time of our prophet. Isaa (peace be upon him) has not been and gone and neither has the Mahdi. Dabbatul Ard has not been and gone and neither has Yajuj and Majuj because when the major signs start to happen they will happen one after another like pearls falling from a string. Please brother think about it with an open mind. Mirza Ghulam is NOT the messiah, Mahdi or Isaa. He was an ordinary man. He was not mentioned in any hadith or in the Quran. 2 billion people can't be wrong when they worship allah and follow Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon Him), who believe that Isaa will return to kill the Dajjal and Yajuj and Majuj. He live for forty years, get married and die when his time comes. The time he is on Earth every single human being will be a Muslim. After his death will start the end of the world completely.
----------------------------------------------
This doesn't sound literal to you? So you think Jesus is or has been and gone?
Allah says in the Quran, "And he (son of Mary) shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the hour." (Surah Zukhruf)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
This doesn't sound literal to you?
“Dajjal” means “The Deceiver”. It appears from various traditions that some one will falsely claim that he is the Messiah who is awaited by the Jews. Seventy thousand Jews from Isfihan alone will follow him. He will be one-eyed (one of his eyes will be blind; not that he will have only one eye in the middle of the fore-head!). Gradually, his followers will increase, and so will his claim. Finally, he will claim to be god. He will have food and water; and many people will accept his claims just to get some food and water.
Ref: http://www.al-islam.org/day-of-judgemen … surrection
--------------------------------------------------------A Hadith in Sahih Bukhari narrates the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh): "Surely you will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit so much so that even if they entered a hole of a lizard, you too would follow them," We said, "O Allah's Messenger! Do you mean the Jews and the Christians?" He replied, "Who else?"
Most of the Jews were certain that Jesus (pbuh) was a false Messiah. Most of the two billion Christians reject Muhammad (pbuh) and here you are along with most of the two billion Muslims who reject Hazrat Ahmad (pbuh). If most of the Jews were wrong, two billion plus Christians are wrong, then chances are that the two billion Muslims are wrong too.
Many prophecies that the Muslims give to refuse Hazrat Ahmad (pbuh) as the Messiah are the exact same as what the Jews gave to reject Jesus (pbuh) the Messiah. In the following video see what the Rabbi says at 4:30 minutes into the video . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBX44YO … e=youtu.be
I believe in order to understand and have many of these prophecies make sense, one has to accept and follow the Messiah.
In the words of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (pbuh) and on authority of the One True God, Creator of Heavens, Earth and all that exists . . .
Hearken, all ye people, this is the prophecy of Him Who has created the heavens and the earth . . . God will bless this faith and this Movement in a remarkable and extraordinary way and will frustrate everyone who designs to destroy it. This superiority will endure forever till the Judgment Day . . . Bear it in mind that no one will descend from heaven. All our opponents, who are alive today, will die... and their children, who remain behind them, will die... and then their children’s children will die and none of them will see the son of Maryam [Mary] descending from heaven. Then God will create unrest in their hearts that the time of the dominance of the cross had elapsed and the world had taken on another aspect and yet ‘Isaa [Jesus], son of Maryam [Mary], had not descended from heaven. Then suddenly all men of understanding will be weary of this doctrine. The third century from today would not have elapsed when all who wait for ‘Isaa’ [Jesus] to descend from heaven, whether Muslims or Christians, will give up this doctrine in hopeless despair and disgust. Then there will be only one religion and one leader. I have come to sow the seed and the seed has been sown by my hand. It will now grow and flourish and there is no one who can hinder it.Sorry brother in Islam but you do not seem to have answered any questions i asked in the previous reply.
I do not think i will get an answer so i will leave it here. InshaAllah we will find out the truth when the time comes.Brother, you don't see the answers because you are not looking for them. What you are looking for are fantasies-- this is what the Maulvis, Padres and Rabbis teach. But Allah and His prophets have the real teachings.
Surah Maidah verse 75 says: "The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely, Messengers passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away."
Related Discussions
- 2710
Why are atheists more concern about Christianity than Islam?
by Claire Evans 8 years ago
Very rarely do I see a forum thread on Islam. I have not seen an atheist who has started a thread on Islam insulting Mohammed or Allah or just speaking out against them. Christianity and Jesus seem to be the target. I know it is because the US, for example, is considered a...
- 70
When did Islam start?
by augustine72 12 years ago
I want to know when Islam started? Did Muhammad start it or did it exist before Muhommad?
- 105
Ahmadiyya peaceful Muslims
by paarsurrey 9 years ago
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/42912#post996684Hi friendsAs requested by our friend AdeleCosgroveBray,in the above post, I start this thread.Ahmadiyya or who are sometimes called Ahmadi peaceful Muslims are those people who believe Muhammad as the Seal of the Prophets Messengers and who believe...
- 58
"Golden age” of Spain: peaceful spread of Islam
by paarsurrey 8 years ago
Hi friendsIslam spread very peacefully in Europe as can be seen from the following account of the Wikipedia:A major development in the history of Muslim Spain was the dynastic change in 750 in the Arab Caliphate, when an Ummayad Prince escaped the slaughter of his family in Damascus, fled to...
- 559
Islam, is it a violent religion?
by thirdmillenium 7 years ago
Does Islam contain some doctrines that make it mandatory for all Muslims to kill/destroy/annihilate followers of other religions/atheists/agnostics? Some say it does. Some others say it was not originally in the text but had been stealthily inserted later by religious fanatics.
- 76
Will Muslim and Budhist people go to heaven?
by Emma 13 years ago
I would really like to know if Muslims and Budhist people go to heaven because since Christianity says that one can't go to Heaven unless they believe in Jesus. I have a Muslim and a Budhist friend and these guys are more righteous than most Christains i know and i don't want them to go to hell...