It's interesting how much emotional and mental energy is spent in these forums trying to convince others of a particular point of view, when so very few of us are ever actually budged from the beliefs we arrived to the forum with. I know for myself this is greatly frustrating; it's much like arguing with my relatives; it seems pointless. It has me asking several questions: is truth relative (two meanings (1st): truth being a human concept is perhaps only an individual experience (2nd); since the vast majority of our ancestors didn't perceive reality as we now perceive reality; are we to suggest somehow that their lives were less meaningful? So if someone twenty thousand years ago could live happily and meaningfully, with a belief system that has been basically proven false, why can't someone today? And who amongst us believes they know the deepest depths of reality; it's very likely our every conception will be replaced with other conceptions as we grow in understanding and complexity; so in a manner we might be just as wrong; and the other question- what makes human interactions meaningful (I don't care what my dog thinks about the world, I still love him, why should I expect people to see the world similar to me?)
I like the way you think. Truth on a spiritual level is, in my opinion, true as far as it takes to reach the inside of your own skull. And whether we consider a belief system to be proven wrong, or not, people have every right to believe.
I am constantly amazed by how adamant people can be here that their belief systems must be accepted as truth by all, instead of simply listening and accepting the fact that others have alternative thoughts on the topic and are no more right, or wrong, than they are.
It is all, in the end, proven to be little more than the true by product of each of our imaginations.
Truth is relative, but only for those who see it that way. Ignorance is bliss, but ignorance is also the catalyst of certainty, which feels like truth, especially if there is a particularly charismatic leader to speed the process along. It's fulfilling to be part of a cause, be part of something greater than yourself, even if it isn't "true." If you don't know it isn't true, then it is. For you. We only have the experience of our lives.
People who don't believe in miracles never see them.
People who don't believe in magic never encounter it.
People who don't believe in God don't find Him (him/her/them/it).
All that is common philosophy, and, of course, all can be inverted and be just as true. None of it makes any of it true or untrue, because you can't disprove a negative.
The problem which give rise to your question is that most are not aware of how Truth interacts/affect with reality...Many assume them to be one and the same, which they are not.
Truth is Truth singular Absolut supreme above all without need of any other thing.
Reality is merely one's perception of Truth.
But since Truth is intertwined with the false, it has the appearance of variability and can no longer be considered Truth
Now this Truth/False mixture is the reality of this age and only those have seen Truth, can differentiate it from the false and this will allow them to see a Reality distinct and different, beyond this age...
They see all things because they have seen Truth....
It seems to me Kess, that what you are saying is something like "truth is that which still is without perception, without us." The problem of course is, truth is a human concept. Does it die when the mind dies?
As for the duality of Truth/Falseness, all dualities I believe to be "singular concepts." The mind views the poles of the concept for perspective. People think truth is different that falseness, but these are the poles of a singular concept. One can describe any degree of truth or falsehood by the terms of the other. If it is half truth then it is half false. If it is all true then it is entirely not false; if three quarters false than it's one quarter true, and so on. In math and science if two equations describe the same thing to the same degree, there is usually an underlining equation that incorporates both.
Just the title of the page, should show others to stay away, unless they wanted to argue more than discuss. The only reason I am posting is to point it out and take the *bait*?
Is Truth relevant(perhaps double meaning)? Truth IS Truth. It is always relevant, can be known when seen(without ego) and impacts whether or not, wanted or desired.
The human subconscious absorbs information obtained through all senses. Even, if YOU didn't recognize it, as it was absorbed.
It is why knowing yourself is extremely important. Each retains all information accumulated from our senses, even if deemed by the individual as unimportant.
Spirituality? Well, Love is about all the spirituality one needs. Any other form, is deception of self.
On you last comment stating that spirituality is a deception, I say...PROVE IT! You can't for a moment understand the world I stand in and how laughable that comment is; yes the word spirituality falters too, but so do all words. However, if you have a theory that explains everything that is, can be, can't be, and all emergent processes, which "proves" there is nothing like spirituality, then by all means share it with the world.
Love is a chemical, so is hate, so are all emotions, how is one better than another?
Hey VoltaireZ, nice try. Mysticism was debunked by in the 70's, to early 80's. Just because you and many others, were influenced into believing something else? Not my fault. Go learn some more.
Mysticism is dishonesty, in it's purest form.
Really? I guess your statement again fails you more than anything else.
Last time I checked, stupidity and gullible people who cannot look past them long enough to see or understand the world around them, is mostly the problem.
A dumb question and what in the world made you ask? My original post about Love? Stands as it was stated. Don't like it, oh well, do try to look past yourself, you can stop actually looking at yourself.
I didn't even read the above comments sorry I will though after while.
is truth IR-Revalent. ??
For us bible thinkers. King Soloman is supposed to have been the wise est! man alive and he said that it is.
..... If it wasn't covered up with so much "Vanity" this would be seen more clearly.
Is Truth relevant(perhaps double meaning)? Truth IS Truth. It is always relevant, can be known when seen(without ego) and impacts whether or not, wanted or desired.
And YET ? The truth concerning the earth and everything it was 3 & 1/2 billion ago is a different "Truth" than it is today.
If evolution happens to everythings, does it not stand to reason that "Truth" also evolves daily? or is truth the only exception?
Jerami, please learn the language you use. Anything regarding the Earth is dealt with by sciences of the many fields. It doesn't search or make up truth. It deals in "theories".
Truth Is Truth. The only thing that changes is people's perception of it. It can be recognized by any individual who is honest with themselves and looks beyond their ego(self).
And, as I have said in the past, it's universal for all.
And yet you desire to argue Ssooo much that you ignore everything that I said in order to say that I was wrong.
DUH , when the earth was no more than an active volcanio ALL Over the world .... IT was a dirrerent truth than it was when the Saber tooth tiger roamed the earth ....
And it is a dierent truth today with 75% of the population of the earth living in the virtual world o internet.
Are you telling me that truth has never changed.
Surely NOT! so come on and change the subject again so you can be right.
I didn't dismiss anything you said. And, I have no desire to argue. I read what you said. Then I posted my comment.
I addressed your statements. And, you were talking to me?
It is NOT truth. What part are you missing? It could be "fact". But, Facts are NOT Truth either. Truth is the sum of all facts, which are required to be recognized.
It remains a Fact. Yes. But, not truth.
Not with regards to self and life.
I didn't change the subject to begin with. And, I didn't change the subject in any of my posts. So, you must be reading something else into my post. I do try to use small words and plenty of them to explain myself.
It's usually YOU who isn't listening? You love to "interpret" words into the context of a sentence, instead of reading the actual sentence. Sounds like a comprehension problem?
You are the best evidense I have to submitt as evidense that "Truth" and reality are constantly evolving, whether you realize it or not.
"I didn't change the subject to begin with. And, I didn't change the subject in any of my posts. So, you must be reading something else into my post. I do try to use small words and plenty of them to explain myself." I'm afraid when you speak out of ego and use demeaning language, you convince me, you're not a very objective person. Ego is perhaps the first blinder to truth;falseness
Truth is relative if your talking about factual truth. That which can be proven now with certain techniques may be proven untrue later. Truth in the more esoteric, abstract sense, needs to be felt. We are all individuals with our own sense of this kind of truth. That is a wonderful thing because otherwise this would be a universe of robots.
Jonathan Janco, the problem I have with your statement (I wish it were true), is that by your definition of truth, it is relative, and therefor doesn't need to apply to someone else. It's as if one person says, "for me, truth is relative." Then another person says, "truth is objective." And you are saying, both statements are true. Now, all three of these statements must be true, for truth to be relative, but they two of them can't be true to the guy that said, "truth is objective." If truth is strictly a private thing you can't describe what it is to another person; in any manner, including saying it is "relative," because that would have to be a non-relative fact about truth.
Joseph's reply to Pharaoh, Daniel's to Nebby-Nebby, or the lady who just lost her husband on the beach here, will always be relevant.
Joseph and Daniel: It is not "I",O King or Pharaoh, but there is a God who interprets or answers. The Lady: "Look it up" (in the Book), read solid commentary. The answers don't start with us.
Of course truth is relative, and normal is just what is commonly accepted. Most people get so angry because what is most important as society is that we conform to broadly the same set of beliefs - if you think differently then you are outside of society. I find it lonely but invigorating out here
It sounds as though you said that "EVERY BODY" has been indoctrinated by personal enviroment and events .... and that is their truth.
But if I am wrong ?????
That is what I am saying, we are all indoctrinated by our surroundings to a greater or lesser extent. eg religion has a place between those who support it and those who oppose it, if you have another view then you are outside the main stream and broadly irrelevant. The same goes for politics and even down to personal small things, if you live and think in a way that is different to your family then you are outside of the family.
Out side the family YES , out side of whatever group you finding yourself near Yes,
But everybody has been indoctrinated in their own individual way.
BUT? What the most verbal people want everyone else to think in normal or generally agreed upon ..? usually isn't.
"What the most verbal people want everyone else to think in normal or generally agreed upon ..? usually isn't." This seems prescient, but also seems more of a political media argument; that what is being projected to people as the commonality of thought ad opinion is really an attempt a social control by the powerful. 80% of American's want tax increase for the wealthy, but the Republicans talk as if their whole party is united against them.
I think we are all lonely. We complex beings, each a whole world, and we wan others to see that world, but hell we have a hard enough time just seeing ourselves.
I started this then abruptly went off line for several days, and now, I'm too busy. I apologize to all. Hopefully in a few days, I reply to everyone, and you'll still be interested.
There is truth which one perceives to be true in one's imagination.
There is Absolute Truth which exists everywhere whehter one perceives it correctly or incorrectly.
Which truth is being discussed here; I could not understand; sorry.
At least two truths were discussed here. The nature of truth itself is being discussed here, but also whether understanding that nature is important; is understanding truth important? When I watch a movie, it is important that I don't understand too much that the truth of the images I'm seeing; it would spoil the movie. A "mythic life" can be like a movie that last a lifetime. Does it matter, if I embrace a fiction, a beautiful fiction, as our ancestors have?
Religious truth can only ever be subjective, even when the religion a person belongs to is shared by billions of people. No one can be sure that they understand their religion in quite the same way as another person. If however the religious belief makes a person happy, and as long as part of that belief does not require the believer to discriminate against people of different beliefs, then I can see nothing wrong with it.
There are also absolute truths, such as the speed of light, the orbit of the planets, the evolution of species etc. The problems arise, when these absolute truths come into conflict with religious truths, i.e. if a religious belief claims as part of its doctrine that the Sun orbits the Earth. This obviously cannot be a subjective experience, because it really is a fact that the Earth orbits the Sun. For centuries, it was religious truth for Roman Catholics that the Sun went around the Earth. Just as for many religious believers today, their religious truth tells them that the universe was created in six days, 6,000 years ago. This again cannot be a subjective truth, because it is established fact that the universe is billions of years old.
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