Truth no longer matters?

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   sallieannluvslifeposted 11 years ago

   Has anyone else noticed that more people are blatantly lying these days and when confronted with the truth, they get angry with you?

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      couturepopcafeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Maybe people are lying just as much as ever. You're just seeing through it more. No reason to confront unless it affects your life, right?

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         sallieannluvslifeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Lying affects all of us, doesn't it?  From Government down to friends to acquaintances you meet in every day situations.  If everyone has their own truth, than there is no true reality...black is no longer black, words are just words without true meaning, you can no longer trust in anything or anyone....we just have chaos.

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            mischeviousmeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            And then, words are but noises we believe we understand. This would be to say that words are just as meaningless as that they were meant to label and this world we live on will truly never be understood. The only true lie is that we know something. We have a basic understanding, but we truly only know how words affect us and that is all.

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               paarsurreyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               I don't agree with you.
               
               Words are always meaningful; as particles in the physical world.

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         paarsurreyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         A good piece of advice

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      Pearldiverposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      The truth is that you are right!
      
      Just as people are in denial of their need to stop eating junk food, before airlines finally refuse to carry them, or liars refuse to take responsibility for the fact that they have in fact knowingly chosen to lie, because they choose to not be real, or are actually mentally defective... perhaps it is true that fools believe that they are Not Fools and others don't give a damn!
      
      Perhaps it represents the cost of accepting all the things in life that are sugarcoated!    But... ultimately it is a matter of personal choice!

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         paarsurreyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

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      A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      They will lie if it jeopardizes or shatters their belief systems.
      
      But then, that's exactly what facts are all about, shattering belief systems.

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         paarsurreyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Many a time

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      icountthetimesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Politicians always lie and are at the top of society. We're set back examples and it filters through. Plus I guess it's an extend the ability to lie is within all of us. I'm not sure that i'd say people lie more than they used to. Things never change all that much, just our perception that they do,

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      GoldenBirdposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      What is lying? How do you know what is truth or not? Even when you're sure, who cares to get burnt by playing the heck?

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      paarsurreyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      So, Truth matters.

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   MelissaBarrettposted 11 years ago

   If you are framing that in the context of religious philosophy (as per forum subject) then there really can't being any lying.  Just a lot of people who think their opinion is the truth.

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      paarsurreyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      That is why the discussion is made.

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   Muldaniaposted 11 years ago

   It would depend on which truth you confront people with, because there are so many, and they mostly disagree with each other.

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      Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      By definition, if one truth does not agree with another truth, either one or both of them is not the truth.

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         sallieannluvslifeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         "which truth"?   "there are so many"?  What happened to truth being something that is backed up with facts, as the dictionary meaning states -  "the true or actual state of matter" "conformity with actual reality; verity" "a verifiable or indisputable fact, proposition or principle".  There is only one truth in most situations....one that can be verified, indisputably.  That is the truth.  I think it is very sad that more and more people today find it so easy to lie because their end justifies their means - but it does not really when no one can trust anyone anymore and you never know if someone is actually telling you something that is a fact or just a fictional fact in their own mind.

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            mischeviousmeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            The concept of truth will differ from one person to another, so then when one is speaking honestly, it will probably not be a truth to the listener. The definitions in dictionaries are but labels and basic understandings. How can one see it as fact, if it is but a series of labels and basic understandings? Higher understanding then, could still be seen as lies by the ignorant. So it's realy not so much about lying, as it is about individual ignorance.

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               sallieannluvslifeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               So, I guess in your world, black is or can be pink or green or purple, birds can be dogs or cats or elephants, humans can be ladderback chairs or eggs or books...right?  If the dictionary meaning of something is only a "label".   I think it is about lying...and lying is about individual irresponsibility and selfishness.  It is just another way for someone to avoid facts and still allow the person to acheive something that convinces them of their own reality that is truly irreality.  Those people that lie and convince themselves it is ok, do not live in reality and are just fooling themselves in the long run and cause damage to the relationships with those they are lying to.

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                  mischeviousmeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I'm just looking at from a different angel, which is a healthy way of affirming certain realities. Words are but chatter if the meaning cannot be conveyed to everyone. Just as foreign languages are impossible to understand, so then is the chatter of animals. We only think we fully understand things, but in truth, we only understand them in concept.

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                     Muldaniaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     The human mind constructs its own truths all the time.  We simply take it for granted that the way we see the world is the only way it can be seen.  However, in this world, we will encounter others who have their own mental constructs of truth, which are as real to them.  Even objective scientific truth can change.  What was once scientific fact can be overturned.  And there are scientists working in the same field as each other, who conduct the same experiments and reach totally different conclusions.  So, even the scientific method is not immune from personal opinion.

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                        mischeviousmeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        Absolutely. But them some are so filled with "I" that, to them, there truth cannot be overturned. They are truly lost and for that, I feel a sense of loss and it is a shame indeed.

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         paarsurreyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         You mean anomalies help us find the next reality.

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      paarsurreyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      A lot of effort and prayer to the Creator God is required to discern virtue from evil.

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         mischeviousmeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         How about just being mindfull of every aspect of your own actions. You don't need a God or gods for that. If you see evil or do evil it is a happening, not a creation. You decided to do evil things because you weren't being mindfull of how your desires affect you and the world around you. Instead you let somebody convince you to think like they do.

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   anonimuzzposted 11 years ago

   I think many people are mostly looking for comfort rather than truth, when it comes to religion/spirituality. It's just that, eventually, people might conclude that only the truth can give them that comfort they want, and so, at that point, they truly put on the critical thinking glasses to find it (not as an ultimate purpose, but as a mean for the relief they need). However, I think that whatever truth we come up with in this field will always be relative, never absolute. So, I'd be careful about 'confronting people with the truth', as I think that the real big truth is: we just don't know.

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      mischeviousmeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you. I've been trying to convey that forever. But I don't think everyone will agree with you either.

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         sallieannluvslifeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I was not necessarily referring to the "truth" as in religious truth when I chose this forum topic, this was more for the philosophical part of the topic....religious truth per the gospel of Christ is for another day.  I was referring to black v white, proven factual truths....tangible truth, that so many people today find easy to lie about.

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            mischeviousmeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            How do you know they are lying or just speaking individual subjective truth? To lie to someone, I have to something like "The sky is not up, it is down". But then again, if I don't know that the sky is up and had been told it was down, how do I know I am lying?

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               A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Simple, when you are shown that the sky is up and you continue to argue it is down, then you should know you're lying.
               
               Individual subjective truth?

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                  mischeviousmeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  That's how philosophy works. Questioning the nature of things. You can pick on it all you want, but you're realy only making yourself look ignorant. I like you, but I don't have to like what you say. That is the nature of disagreement.

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                     A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     No, that's how science works. Philosophy asks the question 'why' which is a question of a subjective nature.
                     
                     
                     
                     

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                        mischeviousmeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        You are filled with hate and I'm sorry for you. I cannot change you though and it is something you'll have be alone with. I'm sorry.

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                           A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           <--- me being filled with hate.
                           
                           
                           
                           Really? Is that something you often do to others, try to change them so they are viewing and believing in your esoteric gobbledegook?

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                              mischeviousmeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                              No. That is just how you come across, as a hatefull lonely little man, devoid of anything constructive to say. You make yourself look like nothing more than a troll. Look at yourself for a while and tell me that I'm wrong and I'll consider whether you are full of "gobbledegook" or not.

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                                 A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                 An interesting observation of forums I've encountered is that whenever anyone gets personal and begins to attack, their tirades are often a reflection of themselves projected onto others and their way of coping with it.
                                 
                                 The question is what set of circumstances or events are triggering those emotions, From what I can glean, it appears to be something that triggers honesty and it is within those tirades we find that honest person.

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                                    mischeviousmeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                    That's the ticket. We have to be willing to see ourselve's, in that of others. I was much like you at one point and I think it was because I was choosing to feel that way. I was clinging to what I thought I knew about the world and it resulted in the harsh judgement of others and hindered me from looking in.

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                                       A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                       I didn't choose to feel like anything, reality chooses that for us.

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                                          mischeviousmeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                          I'm a realist and a pragmatist. I choose to look at life from many angles instead of one. For me it is about discussion, not so much about whether I am right or wrong. I honestly agree that I don't know everything, so then it is(for me) not worth arguing about. I see everybody as being valid in some way or another and even though I may not agree with what they are saying, it doesn't realy affect me on any deeper level.

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                  Muldaniaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  It could actually be argued that the sky is down.  We have agreed as a species, to understand things in the same way as each other.  The map of the world for instance is always shown with Europe and North America at the top, and Africa and Australia at the bottom.  But how can we know which way the universe is pointed?  North can only be at the top, if we know that there is a top and bottom of the universe, which we don't.  People used to joke that going to Australia would mean falling of the world, because it was underneath the Earth.  However, gravity makes such understanding meaningless.  When maps were made centuries ago, the world was Euro-centric, so it made sense to place it at the top.  According to our accepted view though, the Australian sky could be said to be "down" because it is below the Earth, even though Australians would need to look up to see it.  Up and down, and north and south are however subjective experiences, even though they are commonly agreed upon.

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                     anonimuzzposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Ohhh, good point! I never stopped to analyze the way maps are made. Indeed, Europe is pretty much the center and the top. Makes sense historically, but it would be fun to see some maps turned upside down, with Europe at a lame corner, etc. I'll stop writing nonsense now; there's an interesting discussion going on.

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            paarsurreyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Does that happen, really? Please elaborate for us all.

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      paarsurreyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I think your last sentence in very truthful; science only discusses possibilities as they say; absolutes could be understood from the Word of the Creator God; if correctly looked into.

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         mischeviousmeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         When you can come up with some concrete proof that none can deny, you'll have all the believers you could ever hope for. Until then you'll have just as much credibility as everyone else in these matters (none). I cannot tell you what is true for you, only you can. The concept of God is just as much a guess as anything else. Your brain makes it real for you therefor, it is an illusion. The fact that you honstly think something like this is absolutely real is a product of your brain and how it's been conditioned by what ever crowd you are following. So if it is true, it's probably only true for you and your version of a  creator God is is your's, not evryone else's of said crowd. Think for yourself, without your brain and ignore what anybody says is absolutely true about God.

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   sallieannluvslifeposted 11 years ago

   There really is no such thing as "individual subjective truth"....basic knowledge is that a rock is hard, a pillow is soft, the sky is up not down here on earth, ice is cold, fire is hot....c'mon...you don't really believe what you are saying....you may as well live on the moon - but the moon...oh shoot....the moon ....do we really believe the moon is the moon or is it just a subjective truth?  Maybe it really isn't the moon at all because the moon is a word that labels something...it could be the noom now or the couch or the sea....I'm beginning to like my world even better!!  My husband can now be my boyfriend or just an acquaintance on the street...I can say my dog meows and my hair will never turn gray because gray is just a subjective truth and label.....

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   recommend1posted 11 years ago

   Lie and truth are not necessarily directly connected.   
   
   It is only a lie when you are deliberately stating what you believe to be untrue.

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   sallieannluvslifeposted 11 years ago

   *see previous postings for responses

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   Reality Bytesposted 11 years ago

   The games are played with your life on the line
   Some lose, you win if you keep on trying
   I don't mind doing the time, I'm happier being alive
   Now I know the only truth is your own, most sacred lesson I've ever learned
   I know we are free
   
   I've been robbed, I've been fooled
   I intent now to make my own rules
   Dagger's edge cut the line, I've been down that road
   Too many times
   What's to fear. fear no more,
   Show my conscience what fear's for
   Now I know this is so real
   What's done is done so do as you will!
   
   Testament - The Ballad

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   sallieannluvslifeposted 11 years ago

   I would like to thank everyone for their insightful input into my forum question.  It has really helped me to understand the world we live in today - that there are those of us who live in reality and those of us who live in their own personal subject truth "reality" which allows for no personal responsibility and no consequences for personal choices, where words are just labels and labels are well, whatever you would like them to be, along with everything else.  This forum has helped me to understand why there are so many confused people in the world, why the world is so chaotic and why psychiatrists are so rich.

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      mischeviousmeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I like the psychiatry jab. I am a pragmatist, a realist and I have many roots in religion. I just see myself in everyone and I see everyone in myself. I see all of the qualities that make up my psyche in that of others and I attemt to relate to them on a personal level.

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         sallieannluvslifeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         It was not a jab at all, just a statement made by view of the obvious....and frankly, made in sadness for those that are so confused, not an attempt to jab.

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            mischeviousmeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            The words ye spake created laughter in my heart. This world we live on is just one large sanitarium, in which we are all the patients.

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               sallieannluvslifeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Agreed!

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               paarsurreyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               
               
               The hell would be hospital for the wrong doers to improve oneself; this world is test from the Creator God.

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    SanXuaryposted 11 years ago

    There is no way not to notice. When one considers that are entire society has been robbed and we do nothing but accept it we have an enormous problem. We are witnessing the great age of denial and the anger simmering underneath is one of great confusion. One has to truly fear doing the right thing in a society that has legalized robbing your home, 401K, the tax payers and this list could go on forever. Still there was money and all of it is still in some ones hands. Worst of all they can legally do it all over again when ever they please. Now you get to be the con man or the victim. Most of us are still working for these masters for even less today as they lie and take you for the next ride. When we are no longer in denial and realize the truth then all hell will break loose. I am guessing we will continue to blame the wrong people and eventually be robbed until we have nothing and no choices left. Perhaps things will level out and the blind will walk into the night and a few decades from now we can get robbed again.

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