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I ask that from the perspective of it being a prerequisite of the religion. Do you have to love God in order to be a Christian?
Or, is it just all about obedience and worship, and loving God is just an emotion you can personally have if that's what you want to believe?
We can find all kinds of quotes from the Bible about love, but we can also find quotes from the Bible that don't show any love at all, but instead are based entirely on obedience and worship.
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshiped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
It is that kind of quote in which I would have no love at all for God who would command me to commit such an atrocity towards my fellow man, just because he "transgressed the covenant" and had "gone and served other gods, and worshiped them".
How could anyone love a god who commanded you to kill?
Well, he's not commanded *me* to kill. I did not start loving God until I understood and accepted the fact that he loves me, to the point of giving his own Son my the forgiveness of my sins.
How is that giving? He got to be reborn, where is the sacrifice? There was none.
Yep! Now Ya got it! we will be reborn sooo where is our sacrifice????
I don't know where our sacrifice is either, I never think of life as in any way sacrificial.
Yep! I have heard that a lot! I think life is totally amazing. The only bit I don't like is death, but that will be just a sociological problem soon.
The Romans brutally murder a guy while his Dad gleefully watches from the sidelines and you call this love?
Hmmm. I've read the gospels. I didn't catch the gleeful part. Are you making this up as you go?
What did God do to stop it? Nothing. Was he powerless to do something? No. He watched and let it happen. That's glee in my books.
The difference between the OT and NT. The Old testament was law. Today we might ask the same question about a judge or a policeman giving us a ticket for speeding. Do we love the law or the person behind it? The Old testament was not designed to bring about love for God. It was designed to reveal what man does wrong according to God. The OT was a belief of works: rituals, adherence to rules, obedience to law. A different system completely but a system that always pointed to Christ. IF we look closer at this system we find that moses killed a man and fled to egypt. Was moses stoned to death, nope, did God use moses later on, yep. Abraham had adultery with his handmaid at the request of his wife. Did Abraham get stoned? no. So we are witness to Gods GRACE working in the background. David sent a man to the front lines with the motive of killing him so he could marry his wife and yet God said, 'David is a man after my own heart'. These are not contradictions in scripture but show Gods great mercy and forbearance and even love.
Then Jesus said, 'Love thy enemies and your neighbor'. And that God would be a father to all who call upon the name of His Son. When the woman caught in adultery was brought to jesus he said 'neither do i condemn you, go and sin no more', when the law would have judged her, pronounced a sentence upon her and executed that sentence immediately. Just like our law, court systems do today, sentences are always effective when the judge slams the gavel.
Keeping in mind, nobody asked God to sacrifice his Son - this act is mimicked by Abraham and Isaac on mt horeb, Abs only son, etc.. - When nobody asked God to do what He did, He did it anyway, because this is what was needed to end the OT laws and sacrifices. I am sure people are thinking oh what about ending it this way or that way or some other way. God chose to end it the way He did.
It's all Love. Creating mankind in the first place was all about love. Giving them the ability to reject Him was all about love. Taking the Hebrews out of egypt and into a land to call their own was all about love.
Ya can't get away from it... love is all over the bible.
I think you may have side stepped the OP. I never said love wasn't all over the Bible but agreed and added that there are things that don't show love that are also all over the Bible.
I couldn't possibly love an entity that commanded me to kill, especially over something like breaking a covenant.
So, the entire prerequisite of love in the Bible is canceled out because of those kinds of commands. But, the two things that do remain consistent throughout the Bible are obedience and worship.
It's not about love.
i answered the question
love abounds even in things that seem unloving - love is still there.
there is no canceling out, the message of jesus is the message of God - the father; Love God and love one another.
There is no love in commanding others to commit murder or any other immoral act, especially for reasons of worship and obedience.
Fear not! Go forward and be troubled no more, as the brotherly one has a loving reason why his god wrote all 36,000 abusive psychotic passages in the whole book!
I like to sum it up thus......... Goddunnit!
A robber breaks into your house and has a gun and you make tea? So someone kills your son in a car crash and you do not press charges? because you love unconditionally.
Love handles situations differently when it needs to perform loving duties in accordance to the situation.
In the first example you try to stop the robber before he kills a family member (protection mode). In number 2, you want to see the driver get his just deserts (grief mode).
Love wears different hats as it needs to.
Jesus reproving the pharisees... love or hate... love of course.
Hate would just wave as someone walked into the path of a bus, but love would yell, look out.
You fundies really put the fun back in fundie. You present these laughable, statistically improbable, extremely rare life and death scenarios that are less likely to occur than a meteorite landing on my head and use them to support arguments about love.
Oh yes, whenever robbers enter my house to kill family members, coincidentally a regular event here in Hells Kitchen, I often sit back and reflect on Gods love right then and there. That's the first thing to which my mind instantly turns.
That deserves a double.
Morality means a master ideal to which everyone is to conform like Jesus or Buddha. You get to love those in
conformance with the paradigm and hate those who are not. No blanket prohibitions
as thou shall not kill. You get to more do what you want.
Firstly it has been my observation that God deals with mankind on mankind's own intellectual level. Killing has been and still is what man understands best so it would be unrealistic to tell a hunter not to hunt! If I am to follow the insertion that mankind is wiser than God then given that particular commandment they simply should not have followed it.
God commanded us to eat the fruit of the trees instead we started eating animals and in order that we do not kill ourselves out of existence from diseases found in certain animals God tells us which animals not to eat-one could interpret this as God wanting us to eat meat.
God wants his people to love him and one demonstrates love through obedience-How is that any different than when we parent our own children?
Is that the love your God has for us all? Rather than trying to stifle killing, he encourages it because its unrealistic? That isn't love.
Love and obedience are two completely different things. Obedience can easily be shown without any love at all, and vice versa.
I can't believe that's what any parent would teach their children.
Your statement sounds so unrealistic with all the killing, wars, torture we do on our own how dare we stand in judgment of God!
Once we prove we can stop killing then maybe God can stop entertaining our desire for killing.
Parents have encouraged the children to fight and in a few cases adults have convinced kids to kill.
If your God continues to encourage or command people to kill, there will never be a desire to stop.
If we can stop on our own, then we don't need God or his encouragement.
If people are as you seem to be implying smarter than God then they don't need God to tell them not to kill.
I'm betting with or without God the people you think so highly of will continue to rape, torture, murder, steal, hate, basically all the things they are accusing God of being responsible for right now!
If I don't command or encourage people to kill others, does that make me smarter than God or just moral?
With God, those acts are being committed, so you can't say they will continue to be committed without God.
It also shows statistically that those acts are committed in societies in a higher religious demographic than secular. Seems that without God in societies, those crimes are not committed nearly as much.
You have blinded your eyes to man's history. The Egyptian Pharaohs and that the Roman empire, Vikings, Spartans and all the tyrannical rulers were not Christians and the world ran with blood. This I'm a good person routine doesn't fly well with me at all.
If you are not a killer or a commander for killing what have you done to stop the killing?
LOL! It's funny that you don't recognize the fact that those other societies followed their own gods. Christians have their own blood-bathed history, too. Have you blinded your eyes to that?
Christain do kill and sometime they think they're doing the right thing and forever reason they didn't understand the message or they weren't taught correctly so that means I as a Christain have to accept that blame, however the blame is on the individuals not the ideaology or the faith for the Christain belief. Man beleives in killing while the Christain God believes in mercy. For the evil mankind has done -still do we should be on our way to hell because we brought this crap upon ourselves and rather then facing that fact we accuse God. You never see God's face in a liquior store shooting and robbing people, it's not God's face you see raping a woman or a child, it's isn't God who thinks only about how much they have and the heck with the poor. These evil acts are done and yes my some Christain But Buddy We All Are Going To Be Judged For What Did AND DID NOT DO.
We were just talking and looking at quotes from the Bible in which God commands people to kill. There is no one else to blame but God and you have no idea if God commanded those people to kill. If the Bible has those quotes, we can assume that God may very have commanded them.
It doesn't matter who is judged, what matters is who is being commanded by God to kill or who believe they are being commanded.
You keep blaming God and pretending you know better then God so it makes nosense why you say people commit acts that they know they shouldn't be committing-It Makes No Sense From What You're Saying.
If I tell you to go out and harm someone are you going to Do It since I'm commanding you?
If I do know better, then it isn't pretending.
It makes no difference if you believe people shouldn't commit those acts if God is ordering them. Are you saying you know better than God?
Are you God?
I see why you used the label A Troubled Man because you do seem to be troubled. IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE IF YOU KNOW BETTER OR NOT. We have been given free will and if we choose to do evil then the fault is with us.
Why do so many folks here love to take cheap personal shots at others. You're understanding of Christs teachings are as bad as your understanding of the Bible.
If God orders or commands someone to do evil, like kill someone, then it is not our fault, nor is it any kind of love from God.
Where's the cheap shot- from what I'm reading from you do sound troubled guy I mean that.
If people could demonstrate they could love and be kind to each other we couldn't be having this talk but it is clear mankind has nor does it looks like we ever will rise above THE EVIL WE CREATE HERE-NOT GOD MANKIND CREATED THESE EVILS and you are going to ignore it even while it's staring you in the face.
well, I have to be honest about something..before I answer you. I don't really read my Bible the way I should or am told to do. I get what you are saying here. But..here is the thing. When God sent his son Jesus. He took that law of the time away. He bore every sin..including murder. I know I should not have any doubt about the BIble. However, it was written and re written by man. The Catholic church has disgarded and disregard some of the texts and writings because it did not fit in their "religion". When I open my bible, because I have free will. I can choose what to use and what not to use. I love the "B attitudes", the book of Acts, Psalms and JOB. I am more of a New testament kind of creature. I don't know what words to use to express this feeling I feel when I think about the ONE that walks with me each day.
I respect your feelings and I understand where you come from. I really hope that one day this supernatural, unseen entity will reveal himself or herself to you. Now, I have a question of my own. Did you know that you have one rib missing in your body? It was placed inside a woman and helped to create woman from the rib of a man.
How can this be explained?
You should stop referring to what I say as a cheap shot if indeed we are talking about the same thing.
Commandment – 1. An authoritative direction or instruction to do something 2. A doctrine that is taught
Law - A rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority.
Faith - 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. Often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
In reference to the verses from the Old Testament - Deuteronomy 17 - the very first commandment of the Ten Commandments is to not worship any other gods. Therefore, bowing down and worshipping other gods, meant one was breaking the most important commandment. God’s law regarding breaking this commandment was to stone the offender(s) to death. This is not the only law given; there were laws regarding everyday living, acceptable sacrifices for sin, etc. In the New Testament, Jesus expounds on the law, became the final sacrifice for man’s sins (crucifixion was a particularly brutal way to die, by the way) and freed man from the law. The curtain (separation) between God and man was split.
Thinking of your question – “Do you have to love God in order to be a Christian? Or, is it just all about obedience and worship, and loving God is just an emotion you can personally have if that's what you want to believe? “
Love is the foundation of Christianity. Personally speaking, I can’t see how anyone can be a Christian and not love God. The two go hand-in-hand. We have God’s love right off the bat. It is up to us to accept Him. My love for God comes from my acceptance of Him and my desire for a relationship with Him. My worship and obedience are offshoots of that love, not vice versa. This involves faith. I have faith in Him. If one does not have faith, then it is very hard to grasp this concept.
You were actually doing fairly well with your explanation until you said that.
Thanks....I guess :-) We can have mutual respect even if we have differing views. Thanks for respectfully broaching this topic.
In your post, you went well beyond just having a differing view. You actually claimed one couldn't comprehend the concept without faith in God. That would immediately eliminate my view altogether and place your view in an absolute position of understanding.
That indeed is not true by a long shot.
OK. But what I actually wrote was it would be difficult to grasp the concept. It was not meant as a measure of intelligence. I was referring to faith itself being defined as a secure belief in God and trusting acceptance of His will.
I would submit that faith is tantamount in having a poor understanding of any concept, especially when using it to as a secure belief in a god.
Believing or having faith in something does not necessarily lead to a better understanding of that something.
Maybe not, but having faith in God does make it easy for me to love Him as I do have trusting acceptance of His will - whether it is life or death.
That's interesting, and it is probably the heart of my thread.
"having faith in God does make it easy for me to love Him"
As simple an idea that is to fathom conceptually, it has vast widths, depths and range of motion interpretively, so much so that it causes as vast an array of confusion and subjectivity in explanation.
Does the same faith bring the equivalent ease with obedience and worship?
I have to ask that because both are easier to explain than love.
"whether it is life or death"
Yes, that's the scary part of religion, the whole death thingy, which is also at the heart of my thread.
For me, worship and obedience spring from the love and faith I have. Of course, it's not an easy path to follow. But not due to an inability to accept God's will.
That's what doesn't make any sense. How can anyone love an entity that commands others to kill? I could worship and obey if I was forced or feared that entity, but I could never love it.
It's very easy to fear an entity that orders others to kill.
The actual Ten Commandments are found in Exodus 34. Just thought you would like to know. * Check out verse 28 in that chapter*
Thanks, DoubleScorpion. I know the Ten Commandments are listed in Exodus 20:1-17. I was just referring to the Commandments in relation to the example A Troubled Man provided.
Exodus 20:1-17 is not the ten commandments (according to the bible). Exodus 34:10-28 is listed as the Ten Commandments as per verse 28. They have some commandments in common though.
Exodus 34:1 "The Lord said to Moses, 'Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.'" The Ten Commandments are listed in Exodus 20:1-17 as well as reflected in Exodus 34.
Ahh...so you didn't read verses 10-28 then. Got it.
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