I am having a hard time finding the right forum thread for evolution. I couldn't find a thread in the education area or the science area.
Anywho, I got to thinking today about the fact that evolution is considered fact now and that there are evidences to prove where we come from. Then I got to thinking about where we are going. I watch alot of animal shows and I remember one of the ones I saw on spiders when I was a teen had said that the entire world would be in trouble if spiders grew to the size of a house cat. there wouldn't be too many things out there that they wouldn't prey on.
Can you imagine a wolf spider the size of your terrior coming at you while try to run to your car! Fumbling with the keys in your hand screaming while this thing runs you down and catches your calves in it's fangs tripping you and then jumping on your back biting you again on your neck?! AAAAHHH ok I just scared myself a bit yeesh
Anyway, are there any projections on what to expect in the coming years from evolution? I'm having a hard time finding speculations on what the world will look like for us in a few hundred years. Certainly were up for another evolutionary jump in one specie or another.
Its hard to tell, because I think the short term future of evolution will depend on how long we stick around, and how badly we damage the planet. If we go extinct, in the next century or so, then endangered animals will recover and domesticated animals will revert back to their wild forms.
Have you ever seen 'The Future is Wild' where it takes you millions of years into the future, you encounter Giant Tortoises bigger than Dinosaurs, Large Killer Wasps, Massive Squid that live on the land and even intelligent Squid that live in the trees, that seem to be going down the same evolutionary road as us.
I also recommend Evolution, by Stephen Baxter, he devotes a couple of chapters to future evolution. Basically, there's a mass extinction event and Humans survive and go on to evolve into a myriad of different creatures.
Also, look up anything by Dougal Dixon and Peter Ward.
Thank you, it's only fair to tell you that I am a Christian. I do not believe in evolution on the grand scale but only look at it as a hobby.
I will be looking into the program and reading up on these two authors
Well, the ability to rhyme and play basketball seems to be getting a lot of genetic play.
When we talk about evolution and the changes observed on that scale, we are talking hundreds of thousands and millions of years, not a few hundred.
Surely time is relative to the generations of the specie. What would take an animal that has a life span a million years to accomplish because they have an average life span of say 60 years vs another that only lives say 4 or 5 suggests that we should see evolutionary jumps in the animal with the shorter life span since they would be adapting much quicker or evolving much quicker than the former example. Would you say that is a far observation?
Life spans are only one part of how a species will evolve, many other considerations and factors must be taken into account as well.
Well that's partly true, the environment must change to force evolution but the other part is the specie must continue to populate so that changes may occur right?
So take the fruit fly for instance, this is a creature in which we should have seen a evolutionary jump in by now. It's life span is roughly 30 days. We have been observing them in captivity for over 100 years. Isn't it about time for this specie to have some sort of jump to adapt to it's man made surroundings?
Are you saying the same generations of fruit flies have been in captivity for over 100 years? I don't think so. Besides, that's only 1200 generations, peanuts.
To be fair though, if it were the very same generations of fruit flies held in captivity for over a hundred years, there probably were some very minor changes. Of course, how much detail did they see in those fruit flies 100 years ago? Certainly, nothing on a genetic level, which is where we would see those changes.
Evolution will only happen if it is required, you can see species with millions of years that did not change that much or almost nothing, if it works don't change it.
If there is a major environment change and a species does not have the capability to adapt to the new conditions it will go extinct.
Where you can see evolution happening all the time is in microscopic organism like bacteria and virus, did you ever stop to think why is there a new flu vaccine every year? And the dangers with the abuse of anti-biotic?
If you experiment with the fruit fly and you don't change the environment, or the food source, you can have a million generations and see no changes.
The Nautilus remains practically unchanged for hundreds of millions of years:
To say, "Evolution will only happen if it is required" implies a "will" to make it happen doesn't it? Besides, regaurdless of the environment, a specie could always use an improvement. Crocodiles are said to have evolved to near perfection yet it's not to hard to keep one of their mouths shut if you can catch it closed. Also they arn't able to run in a zig zag pattarn. There is always room for improvement.
It is not a "will", it's a mutation that gives that particular specimen an advantage over it's competition, if that mutation is good it will pass to the offspring over and over again until the entire specie shares that particular mutation.
okay so we have a mutation.. from a hit and miss scenario. What kind of mutation are we talking about? I totally agree that any mutation did come about by the will of the animal or its own will to make it so. And this is the problem. Mutations are not dependable and there is really no assurance that it will pass onto another. Yes we understand that genetics does pass along and we see this in same species change. But to say that warmer weather caused a mutation in a gene to give an animal more fur is rather saying that there is a will involved, because to say that 'luckily' fur grew on a freezing animal is quite the claim. Or that an animals foot developed luckily so it could climb that mountain to get to the other side is quite a leap of faith and then to say that the same mutation was only a good mutation and not a bad one, is rather against the grain also. Many mutations we have seen are not pro the species but detrimental and as in the fruit fly, either they die, cannot reproduce or the mutation goes away, if not, then we should be seeing so much random mutation that darwin would have a theory of mutationism.
Living in SE Asia, it is apparent to me that the indigenous populace has not 'evolved' into the same capabilities of those from other regions.
Where I live the locals still exist in the basic form of the three F's, fishing, farming and fornicating, and despite legal 'positive discrimination' there are few instances where the locals will 'advance' from their basic lifestyle and status, and advanced status is normally only achieved by utilising the 'positive discrimination' policies in force, or where the gene pool of that particular family has been changed by intermarriage with other races.
This is no bad thing, the local lifestyle has much to be commended!
Just an observation.
It's like reading a toddlers description of how a car engine works.
bacteria and viruses are always bacteria and viruses never do they change into something else.
With fruit flies when change occurs it still remains a fruit fly.
Evolutionists say the earth have been around for 100 billion years or some ridiculous number and many species are relatively unchanged. To say that evolution we will never see because it takes so long to produce change is really basing a belief in faith.
The flu changes every season, it mutates to form stronger more tenacious strains. Human beings create stronger more efficient ways to heal and kill one another, that's mutation and evolution. All living things eat and strive to survive, we are no different from nature and we must constantly change to fit in.
There are animals in the Ural regions of Russia that carry the plaigue, many will die but there are a few with special mutations. Humans have a similar mutation and it keeps certain individuals immune to AIDS, if that is not evolution and mutation, I don't know what is or what to call it.
Of course words are just as illusory as dreams, they are mere labels of basic understanding.
the flu is still the flu, its not another thing. Why it changes has yet to be revealed, is it environment or are they from a lab, is it just that people don't have the immune efficiency we once had due to lack of proper breast milk and bottle feeding commercial products - is it the junk we eat or the irradiating at the border of our vegetables. We do not know. But everything has stayed in its genre and that's the point when it comes to darwin and his theory of common ancestry.
The phyla of the cambrian era appeared on the scene not as having evolved but in full phyla. Sure they have been modifications over time but not in the way that species were/are crossing genre and becoming new genre. The eohippus is still a horse which led to horses and that's fine. We christians understand that everything is not as it originally was due to the fall and change in the Eden environment.
I don't think we came from chimps, but I do believe that chimps are a common ancester; a sister species. They have found a specimen with forward set eyes and a straighter spine, with the big toe in a slightly different position. The fossil was found in a lava field in esatern Germany about 25 years ago, it sold for alot. It's the oldest simian specimen on record and it shares no resemblence to chimps or Ardi (another older relative to chimps).
But the real issue here is: Why can some Christians not share head space with both creationism and evolution? Could it be reasonable to think that if there is a God, couldn't it/he/she have just set the process in motion?
"Could it be reasonable to think that if there is a God, couldn't it/he/she have just set the process in motion?"
Yes, perfectly reasonable!
Yes, just as reasonable as if a giant lizard sneezed and set the process in motion.
I don't necessarily believe in a God, it was a question meant for the creationists.
Well, maybe in 500 million years some of them will be something different.
The same for the fruit fly.
Actually, geologists say the earth is 4.54 billion years, and astronomers say the universe is 13.7 billion years.
I have give an example of an animal that is unchanged for hundreds of millions of years, but it had to evolve to that state.
And again, we see evolution all the time, i have give some pretty obvious examples, you can also see evolution through artificial selection, not natural selection like it happens in the wild, in domestic animals, like dogs, cats, cows, etc, just look at some photos from the 20's or 30's from some particular breed of dog and compare to how that breed looks nowadays.
And there is no faith involved because there are evidence to support the theory, really solid ones, and even if there weren't any evidence it would not be faith it would be speculation, a prediction, an hypothesis awaiting verification...
waiting for hypothesis while believing in it is faith.
to lay claim to a theory and then wait for some evidence is huge faith, whereas to those who know God, he gives evidence really quickly.
Also i neglected to mention that the flu may not be changing so readily perhaps just our immune systems are changing. Propaganda is not uncommon if there is a threat to some commercial venue, like how we process our foods and the nutrients lacking in it.
Any dog breed we see today is purposed breeding, this is what dog breeders do. Also we need to factor in quality of life, purpose of the animal, intelligence of the owner to maintain the dog and some other etc.
If you give an example of an animal unchanged for millions of years, did that show up in the cambrian era in full phyla.. so how do you say it evolved to get there?
If evolution were true, then what is the next step in Man's evolution what do we evolve into next?
No one can predict that far into the future, Dave. And, the fact no one can predict that far into the future does not mean evolution is not true.
Your wrote: Anywho, I got to thinking today about the fact that evolution is considered fact now and that there are evidences to prove where we come from.
Evolution is a fact, but only WITHIN SPECIES. Those who believe they evolved from "slime on a rock" may well be right.
Okay, enough empty minded sarcasm. I will not attempt to defend my faith in God's creation. But please consider the FACT that scientific proof demands a hypothesis that can be replicated. If you cannot reproduce your theory, it remains nothing more than a theory.
Interesting questions that evolutionists cannot explain include why some "prehistoric" species such as alligators still remain. There is no question that dinosaurs and humanoids existed thousands, tens of thousands, and hundreds of thousands of years ago on this planet. Life of some type existed millions of years ago. That does not prove that I evolved from one of them. And I do not believe that you did either, even though you may think so.
I think Darwin was a highly intelligent scientist. But even he questioned how life form mechanisms such as sight could have evolved from, in my words, that slime.
If one believes that all intelligence and knowledge is comprehensible by the human brain then he is limited to his own understanding. What an egotistical rationalization. Why would anyone worship a god of his own level of intelligence? That would be idiotic. There can be no worship of anything or anyone with whom we are equivalent. If that is what one believes, then that person cannot possibly accept the reality of God, the creator of all.
If one believes in evolution, he believes in a man-made construct that is intellectually at the same level as other man-made beliefs. The "theory" of evolution is impossible to prove as an explanation for the origin of life. It ranks right up there with the "theory" that the Chicago Cubs have not won the world series for more than 100 year because of the curse of the billy goat.
If you need to connect with evolutionists, then your personal fulfillment will be achieved when you do so. I have good news for you. Your will find comradeship, which is comforting. Furthermore, contrary to the beliefs of many, you will not burn in hell. You will, however, experience an eternal separation from God. Those who loved you on earth, will have no memory of you in heaven. If they did, they would be the ones to suffer.
I'm not going to argue the case for evolution here as I have in other threads. I just want to pick up on your last paragraph. "If you need to connect with evolutionists,..... You will, however, experience an eternal separation from God." ????? Where do you get that little nugget of wisdom from? I wasn't aware that Jesus said that belief in evolution was an unforgivable sin!
Here we go again, another believer trying to tell us all what comprises hypotheses and theories when they haven't a clue.
Dinosaurs existed here millions of years ago. There are species of alligators and crocodiles that have gone extinct.
Yes, you believe a magical sky fairy waved his hand and *poof* men existed in their original form. And, your evidence for this is an ancient mythical book.
And yet, scientists understand how sight evolved. Your point?
And, that's not idiotic, God is perfectly rational. Hilarious.
Of course, but others have an "understanding" of evolution while believers like yourself do not.
Thanks for making my point.
*queue eternal damnation sermon from the mount*
LOL, this is so funny!
"You will, however, experience an eternal separation from God. Those who loved you on earth, will have no memory of you in heaven. If they did, they would be the ones to suffer."
This is the kind of stuff this kind of people make up trying to keep other people in fear, there is a great deal of imagination here, or delusion...
Thanks for judging me Rev. Doctor Dad.........Do I sound like that when I respond in forum threads?
Never once did I say I belive I came from slime on a rock! In fact if you would have dropped down a few posts you would have seen where I said, "I do not believe in evolution, I only regaurd it as a hobby" SMH probably shouldn't have even responded.
My prediction for humans is that we will have a tough time dealing with over population, as if we're not dealing with it now. We will continue to evolve into a lazier being. Our brain will become smaller due to advancements in technology and pretty much computers will be thinking for us. Racial tensions won't be an issue since we will all be pretty much one race. But tensions will rise due to exhausted resourses will be apparent. It is possible that we may become extinct within the next 100,000 years. Animals will continue to evolve to adapt to changes in climate as they have for millions of years. If we do become extinct, the rest of the animal kingdom will once again raise to the top of the totem pole.
I just thought I'd toss in the cheerful reminder that new viruses evolve all the time. Sooner or later one is going to come along that is not only 90% fatal and highly contagious, but doesn't show any symptoms for the first couple years. That means that when the symptoms finally show and we discover it, it will be too late because we are all already infected.
Evolution may well begin in the brain. The next evolution for man will be an advance of the being beyond man.
I know, I'm one of them.
That is a very pessimist prediction, besides us, the worst menace for human kind is from above, asteroids cross earth's orbit all the time, it is just a matter of time to one hit us and we might find out only when it hits the ground, that is scary.
Lotta things can happen....lotta things already have. I qoute from one of my favorite movies. Steve McQueen in Papillon "I'm still here!". I believe that we physically transform at death. This idea can open up the area of the psyche which has been closed to us, and the concepts are age-old....nothing new. I don't agree that mine is a pessimistic veiw, in point of fact, the possibilities, once the full implications are understood, are endless. One gene....one gene is common to man. One change made all of this possible, and evolution can be performed in a single generation.
Actually i was commenting on paradigmsearch reply.
The worst virus ever had a mortality rate around 35% and that was not enough to put human kind as a species in the path to extinction, not even close, and now we have better diagnose, treatment and quarantine tools, so i don't bet on virus to eradicate human species.
It did create a lot of mutants, though.
Good point, in fact I have suspected for a long time that the eugenics team will create that virus, and give the precursor as a 'vaccine' (probably against another virus they have created (say) the flu) and then all they need to do is get us hapless fools to ask to be vaccinated, then when the precursor is widely spread, release the second virus strain that will activate it.
All Forums > Education and Science > Life Sciences > Biology
Don't worry, the era of the giant arthropods, like insects and arachnids is long time gone, it was before the dinosaurs, and it was only possible for insects to grow so much because the higher percentage of oxygen in the atmosphere 35% compared to 21% today.
Eventually we will evolve with genetic engineering, we will be disease free and live much longer then we are able to live nowadays, we will have humans designed for long living in space to be able to travel in space, for example. But this will take many years and many ethical issues must be discussed and overcome, meanwhile, apparently, we are becoming more and more intelligent, 3 IQ points per decade, so in a few hundred years children will be learning quantum physics in first grade, i guess we will eventually lost the vermiform appendix as we have no use for it anymore, loss of body hair seems to be a continuous thing in our evolution...
These are some pretty basic predictions, maybe someone else has something more advanced...
Take the slow way...see if I care.
We already have the capacity to heal all mental illness, virtually overnight, but, modern medicine, concepts and understanding are actually making things worse.
Robin Williams would refute your body hair theory....
Atoms constantly move, as does the rest of nature.
Evolution is also about adapting to ones environment. Traditionally Northern Europeans were short and stocky - to contain heat better in the colder climate while in Africa and the Tropics, a taller, slimmer body is ideal for warmer regions. The earth and oceans are cooling down (naturally - nothing to do with global warming) and will continue to do so. Continents are shifting and who knows what effects it has on animals. Polar bears are mating with other bears to create hybrids that deal better with the warning climate up north. Humans are the only animal that is able to control the temperature in their homes, so there's no need to evolve to adapt to outside climate change anymore. We'll just eventually die out. Might a scene from the Terminator movies where computers and machines take over.
Climate change is only one of the many reasons to evolve; competition is another.
Nothing on earth can truly compete with man as a species. Except man himself - our competition will be from our fellow humans and that competition will drive evolution.
We may see the developed world evolving along very different lines than the third world does as the competition is from a different quarter. Third world people may evolve to have a far more efficient digestive system, for instance, because of lack of food. I have seen speculation that Japanese are evolving to a smaller body size because of crowding.
North Americans may evolve to a larger size at the same time; "tall, dark and handsome" for everyone that is successful. Or we may become far more adept at detecting lies and fraud; instinctively understand body language to the nth degree or go under, maybe.
The starving evolve to adapt to the low food source and contaminated water........that's interesting.
I think we confuse evolving with interbreeding. Interbreeding creates change not evolution.
This may help YOUR confusion...
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/e … cept.shtml
my response was to pauls post and in the context of pauls post was my post relevant.
some animals interbred and down the line we call it evolution. Thats not evolution.
hope this helped YOUR confusion
Actually, I'm still of the we-are-all-lab-rats theory. And the cage is getting cleaned out 12.21.12.
Snooki is a mutant of the aforementioned virus. Her brain will go into the museum of natural science for study of how one can actually grow rich in the 21st c with only one functioning brain cell.
Have you seen idiocracy?
The entropy of a perfect crystal at absolute zero is exactly equal to zero.
I have no idea what I just typed..... Time to study aye?
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