How is an immaterial spirit different from a delusion?

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   AKA Winstonposted 13 years ago

   Ghosts typically have form - that is, they are objects.  Spirits, though, are defined as immaterial or having no shape, which means they cannot be objects.
   
   How can something that has no shape and is thus not an object be differentiated from the imaginary?  Explain how belief in a demon from hell or a spirit god from above that no one can see and which has no material body (is not made of matter) differs from the schizophrenic's belief that his neighbor's dog has told him to shoot people in their parked cars?

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      Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Ghosts and spirits cannot exist based on the physical laws. Believers attempt to explain that "energies" we can't see are what makes ghosts and spirits possible, but that is just a lack of understanding on their part as to what energy is comprised, how it originates and interacts with our world.

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   fatfistposted 13 years ago

   God & spirit are the conceptions of early man. They were conceived, and have absolutely NO real resolution in reality, so they both remain concepts.
   But since these concepts were used for the purposes of accounting for nature, they are both IMPLICIT HYPOTHESES. They are ASSUMED to exist whenever a proponent refers to them.
   Whenever the theist or theologian claims that “God exists” or “spirits exist”, they hypothesize that God & spirit are entities....that they have shape/form.... i.e. that they are objects! They assume that they are SOMETHING (object) rather than NOTHING (concept). Whether they are invisible or not is irrelevant. There are tons of objects in the universe that are invisible: atoms, light, mediator for gravity & magnetism, etc.
   
   In order to make their hypotheses SEEM valid, the theist & theologian also have their associated THEORIES that are dear to them.....
   
   God Hypothesis: Let us ASSUME that God is an entity that exists.
   Creation THEORY: Using my God hypothesis, now I can rationally explain how space & matter were created by an eternal God entity that existed without space & matter, as follows..............blah blah.
   
   
   Spirit Hypothesis: Let us ASSUME that spirit is an entity that exists.
   THEORY of Consciousness: Using my Spirit hypothesis, I can now rationally explain how a human is conscious and can think, memorize, reason, etc, as follows.............blah blah.
   
   THEORY of Never-ending Life: Using my Spirit hypothesis, I can now rationally explain how a human will live forever in Heaven by believing in Jesus, as follows...........blah blah.
   
   The NAIL IN THE COFFIN IS.......not a single fool is able to explain their THEORIES. That’s what happens when theists attempt to use the Scientific Method with invalid & contradictory hypotheses!

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      AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Assumed to exist - like Dark Matter and Dark Energy?   If they are dark, does that mean they were assumed to exist by Satan?

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      couturepopcafeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      fatfist - on the theory of never-ending life - just posing a theory about energy.  If energy can never be created or destroyed, where does it go, what does it do, does it take further objective form after it leaves the form of human being?  I'm just asking.

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         fatfistposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         
         
         
         Hi couturepopcafe,
         
         Your question is EXTREMELY easy to answer!
         But it takes just a wee bit effort on your part, so please, don't ask me to help you out with your homework, ok?
         
         Now, please explain to the audience what this ENERGY thingy is. Can you draw an image of it or reference one anywhere on the Internet?
         Is it an object, or is it a concept?
         Does energy exist? If it does, my questions are a piece of cake, right?
         
         Once you are able to unambiguously explain this ENERGY critter to us, I can easily answer your original question.
         
         I look forward to your reply.

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   Pearldiverposted 13 years ago

   Woooooooooaaaaaaa  You Guys Are Just Way Tooooo Spooky For Me...
   
   Are you really both Intelligent or just Delusional?
   
   Sorry thought this was a forum for Non Believers

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      AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      How can you possible not believe in the aspect of dear departed Gwendilyn that my Aunt Patsy saw the other night hovering in the air above her bed, the one that was right next to the burning bush that spoke?   The fact that she was running a fever of 106 F at the time had absolutely nothing to do with her "vision" - I can assure you she was convinced that Gwendilyn was real - and there is a veritable army of believers who will swear an oath that the burning bush was real.
      
      Aren't all "visions" equal?

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         Pearldiverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Aren't all "visions" equal?
         
         - Clearly
         My neighbor is a cyclops - her friend wears bifocals - her friend's friend is blind - and this blind friend uses the cyclops as a 'seeing eye' (dog).
         
         - It's the point of view that is questionable.
         - And The Timing of the Blink

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            AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Man, you live in a bad neighborhood - and it must be small.  Blink and you miss it.

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               Pearldiverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Correct it is a small Bad neighborhood... what's worse it's called BumbleTown.
               Even the 3 fingered butcher Mayor's vision supports that blink theory!
               We never did find out who got those missing fingers in their sausage order

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   ddsurfscaposted 13 years ago

   spirits are energy.  energy cannot always be seen, but that does not mean it does not exist.  ghosts are spirits of people.

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      fatfistposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      You don't even understand YOUR OWN theory!
      
      A "spirit" is what the theist ASSUMES to exist, like a child ASSUMES Santa to exist.
      You can't use words and synonyms as a "sleight of hand" to make your assumption come to life. That method only works within the padded walls of the Insane Asylum.
      
      If you can use your Spirit-Object to rationally explain all the WHY's and HOW's of a natural phenomenon, without contradictions, then it is *possible* that a "spirit" may exist. That's how it's done in science.
      
      Until then, your ASSUMPTION, and thus your "claim", belongs in the TRASH,.....just like the claim of the billy-goat which vomited a brand new 60-inch plasma TV. The good Pastor told us that he has proof of this goat when I was in Sunday Service this morning......he said we can all OBSERVE the TV hanging on his wall. I tell ya.....a lot of skeptics turned into BELIEVERS this morning.....it was quite the scene!!!
      
      What is it that you don't understand?

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         AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         The miracle is that the T.V. was tuned automatically to Pastor John Hagee's television show.  What are the odds of vomiting up Pastor John Hagee (I mean, if you HAVEN'T been watching him.)

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      AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Excuse me, but can you tell me what "energy" looks like?  Perhaps you could draw a picture of "energy"?  What are the LWH of energy?  Are delusions made from this same "energy"?
      
      Please tell me where I can find some of this energy stuff - I would like to buy a quart of energy, or does is it come in pounds?
      
      Oh, I see.  It comes in concepts.  That makes sense, as energy is a description and not a thing.
      
      So, how many concepts in a pound?

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         couturepopcafeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I guess you'd have to split an atom to see it.  Remember the big deal when physicists finally split the atom and found pure energy?  I'd like to see it myself.

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            AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Energy is a description of the potential to do work - and because it is a description it is by its nature an idea of man, not an object.  There is no "thing" we point to and say wow, look, somebody left their energy lying around.   
            
            So, scientists did not find "pure energy".  They were only able to alter the form of matter and observe the mediated effects of doing so.

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   skyfireposted 13 years ago

   Yet still many people can't prove this so-called energy exists as spirits or ghosts around them. I mean it's energy right ? then prove it before making further stories. 

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   paarsurreyposted 13 years ago

   How is an immaterial spirit different from a delusion?
   
   Spirit or soul is not made of physical matter; yet it is a reality as it has been created by the commandment of the Creator – God Allah YHWH; as He has created the physical matter by his commandment and the Big Bang ensued. The soul is related to the purpose of life; so it is delusional to think that there is no purpose to the creation of universe or life.
   
   [21:17] And We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between the two in play.
   [21:18] If We had wished to find a pastime, We would surely have found it in what is with Us if at all We were to do such a thing.
   
   http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=17

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      fatfistposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      
      
      "Spirit or soul is not made of physical matter"
      
      Did you even read before you posted?
      'spirit' and 'soul' are either SOMETHING (object) or they are NOTHING (space). You opted for NOTHING. Therefore they don't exist...we're done!!
      
      
      "the creation of universe"
      
      How does a foolish God create space and matter, when space and matter necessarily precede any mediator of an action (i.e. a Creator God performing the VERB "create")?
      How does a foolish God create when First Cause is IMPOSSIBLE?
      How does a foolish God create when Creation is IMPOSSIBLE?
      
      Here....educate yourself before you spew more of your garbage:
      http://hubpages.com/hub/CREATION-is-IMP … re-ETERNAL

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      AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      So, you assert there is a difference between an immaterial god spirit and a delusion because neither one is made of matter but your personal belief makes the immaterial god spirit real?  Doesn't that make YOU god? 
      
      But how can YOU be god when YOU are made of matter?
      
      "that's the way things go when you elevate mediocre people to positions of authority."  Catch-22, Chapter 29, page 335.

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   fatfistposted 13 years ago

   Winston,
   
   The theist will go back & forth in their usage of terms by introducing DUALITIES.
   
   First the theist will claim that God/spirit/soul are entities, they have internal structure, they are SOMETHING rather than NOTHING ie. they are objects!
   
   But when gravity makes their God dance at the will of a cat, as she wags her tail, the theist will want to PROTECT his God from ridicule. So he now changes his tune and claims that God is immaterial, incorpereal, non-physical, non-this, non-that, etc.
   
   But what this clown doesn't realize, is that he is a NOTTER (subscribes to the religion of NOTTERISM), because he claims that "God is NOT X" makes God 'something', when in fact it makes God 'nothing'.
   
   Only NOTHING can be negatively predicated!
   So the theist unwittingly concedes his God/spirit/soul is NOTHING. ie. does not exist!
   Too funny

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      hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      to take the supernatural out of Christianity is to make it like all other religions, Christianity is the story of miracles big and small. Miracles that do not break or suspend natural laws but rather flow into her harmoniously.
      Here....educate yourself before you spew more of your garbage:
      http://hubpages.com/hub/natural-laws-and-miracles
      
      Since the cosmos is created it makes sense that something from outside the cosmos created it. I am indeed happy that via the burning bush, (that consumed itself not - a miracle) God did reveal Him(it)self to us and that today through his son (object) He changes and creates new lives. (object)
      
      I have never claimed that spirit is an object neither do i say it is nothing. If thoughts are made of atoms in a brain that is made of atoms can i not then believe my thoughts are nothing? but they are objects because they have function and not because they have substance, therefore God is an object that gravity cannot make dance. Jesus clearly did very little dancing lol.
      perhaps you are just clowning around?

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         AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         It is obvious the Nuns who taught your third-grade class forgot to cover some things with you: contradictions, logic, and language.  I guess they were too busy teaching you righteous indignation - talk about spewing some garbage!
         
         But I am here to help and make up for that obviously sub-par education you received.
         
         Let's look at contradictions first - contradictions are opposing statements.  Here's a good expample:
         
         (Miracles that do not break or suspend natural laws ) and ( I am indeed happy that via the burning bush, (that consumed itself not - a miracle) God did reveal Him(it)self )
         
         Oh, gee, I aways forget the natural law that allows bushes to burn without being consumed.  Wait....don't tell me.  I GOT IT!  It's the First Law of Bullshit!.  Right?
         
         Maybe contradiction isn't your best subject.  Maybe some logic is your cup of tea.
         
         (educate yourself before you spew more of your garbagehttp://hubpages.com/hub/natural-laws-and-miracles)
         (Since the cosmos is created)
         
         Oh, well, tea is bad for you, anyway - too much caffeine.  I will only say look up the logical fallacy of "Appeal to Authority" and also look up "assertion".  Your ideas will have much better reception if they aren't simply mindless, illogical, assertions of claptrap backed by mindless appeals to imaginary authorities.
         
         Hey, how about language skills.  Language is easy:
         
         (but they are objects because they have function and not because they have substance,)
         (therefore God is an object that gravity cannot make dance)
         
         As I said, for some, language is easy - others find it challenging.
         
         To use words meaningfully, they must have unambiguous definitions.  That is why scientific language is so precise.  If you want to explain how thoughts are objects, you need to define object.  But it has been done for you: Object - that which has shape.  Now, if you want to show that an object is a physical reality, that, too has been defined by physics: exist - that which has shape and location.
         
         Now, using these clear and unambiguous definitions, explain again what shape a "thought" possesses to make it an object and where this thought is located for it to exist?  If you cannot explain this, you are simply rambling on about nothing but surrealism and making up stories of imaginary beings called "invisible thought fairies".
         
         How about God?  I agree that God is an object - he has shape (about 6 inches tall, made of plastic, and he looks like a hippie in a grass skirt), and he has a location, (he is right now sitting on the dashboard of my copper, 1969 Chevrolet Camaro, and he is doing the hula).  But I am afraid gravity has kept him pinned down inside my car for many, many years.
         
         Perhaps you might want to consider some adult remedial courses since the Nuns seemed to have failed you so?

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            hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Its nice that you can be so insulting, but i guess wisdom showed you that.
            If you ever get passed your limitations of thought your mind will be capable of comprehending God, until then you are useless in this place and need to be doing something that you might be able to contribute to in a positive manner.

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               AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               I don't consider it useless to point out flawed reasoning and contradictions.  Maybe you pastor thinks it improper in church, but I have no qualms about holding my nose and calling out BS for what it is.

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         fatfistposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         
         
         
         Hanging: “to take the supernatural out of Christianity is to make it like all other religions”
         
         Nobody wants to take the “supernatural” out of Christianity, except YOU! You are trying to make it real, but you can't. It’s like trying to take the clowns out of a circus show......it’s impossible! Nobody can ever present Christianity as anything real. It will always remain in the conceptual realm of the Asylum Escapees who follow it. It will always remain a CIRCUS SHOW!
         
         
         Hanging: “Since the cosmos is created”
         
         My hub offers cash to anyone who can explain if the creation of space & matter is even the extremist of extremely remote possibilities. If you can’t even provide such a basic explanation of possibility, then you’ve said absolutely nothing!!
         
         
         Hanging: “from outside the cosmos”
         
         What is outside of a concept....another concept, like spirit? What is outside of “wind”.....rain? Do you even understand the linguistic fallacies you are committing??
         
         
         Hanging: “God did reveal Him(it)self”
         
         Yes! Now your use of the God Hypothesis matches that of the theologians. God is ASSUMED to be an “it”, something, entity, object, physical, particle, stuff, substance, material, item, structure, etc. Only a totally foolish theist will claim God to be immaterial/incorporeal, ie. NOTHING!
         
         
         Hanging: “never claimed that spirit is an object neither do i say it is nothing”
         
         You are a NOTTER!!
         Either a spirit/soul is SOMETHING or NOTHING....it’s either on or off, white or black, yes or no. There is NO other option. If you cannot post another option that is “positively predicated” by your next post, you will have proven that you haven’t a clue of the garbage you spew.
         
         Only notters will claim that “Y is NOT X”, is saying that Y is something.
         You said “spirit/soul is NOT an object”, therefore spirit/soul is absolutely nothing; does not exist!
         You said “spirit/soul is NOT nothing”, therefore spirit/soul is STILL absolutely nothing; does not exist!
         When Y doesn’t have a single positive predicate, then claiming “Y is NOT X”, means that Y is nothing, no matter what X is. Kindergarten-level communication skills elude you. Perhaps when Buddha reincarnates you as a SNAIL, you’ll have greater brain capacity!
         
         
         Hanging: “If thoughts are made of atoms”
         
         Thoughts are concepts. More specifically, ‘thought’ is a “dynamic concept”, not a static one. Thought is what “something DOES”, and not what something IS. Atoms are objects. You really need to learn the basics before making a fool out of yourself in public.
         
         
         Hanging: “my thoughts are nothing?”
         
         From the drivel you posted, YES, they obviously are nothing! No need to restate the obvious....the audience has already figured you out! Don’t quit your day job. Keep mopping the floors of your asylum.
         
         
         Hanging: “they are objects because they have function and not because they have substance”
         
         Learn the basics: ‘substance’ is a synonym for ‘object’; that which has shape/form. Your statements are breathtaking!
         
         
         Hanging: “therefore God is an object that gravity cannot make dance”
         
         You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! A Creator God cannot experience gravitational effects because it is COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE for a Creator God to exist, or to have ever existed!
         Any other God, like Peter Popoff, Benny Hinn, Ted Haggard, Pat Robertson, Billy Graham, etc., can and absolutely DO exist.....for now.
         
         
         Hanging, please amuse us some more. You're quite a funny guy. I am willing to pay $200/hr for your foolish act. I guess that clown course at the circus finally paid off!

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            hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            you understand nothing of what i said, you take everything out of my context and you put it into your context.
            You are useless here as you cannot understand anything spiritual.
            You did not understand my first sentence nor my last. You did not even grasp the definition of supernatural as i purported it.
            and then you yell at me.
            I have reported your post and thereby i hope to slow down your anger and mold a person who can debate instead of just yell and be rude as is common in all your posts. You are like an unsocialized dog, not meaning to be rude but unsocialized dogs bark at everything and occasionally bite, attack because they do not know how to relate to other people.
            I believe i have grasped this concept of you quite accurately.

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               AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               (I have reported your post)
               Aw, Lawdy, Lawdy, Puh-lease don't report Mr. Fatfist to no Authorities!  Think about his younguns....his job....
               
               (i hope to slow down your anger and mold a person who can debate)
               Aw, Lawdy, Lawdy, Puh-lease don't moldy up Mr. Fatfist.  He gets mad when you try to feed him green stuff.
               
               (You are like an unsocialized dog)
               Aw, Lawdy, Lawdy, Puh-lease don't send Mr. Fatfist to no obedience school.  He don't mean to growl - he just thinks he's a kitten and he is purring.
               
               (unsocialized dogs bark at everything and occasionally bite)
               Aw, Lawdy, Lawdy, Mr. Reporter Sir.  Puh-lease think about turning the other cheek - Mr. Fatfist has done chewed that left cheek of yours into hamburger!

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