Chaos Theory

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   rbe0posted 12 years ago

   Chaos theory is a field of study in mathematics, with applications in several disciplines including physics, engineering, economics, biology, and philosophy. Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions, an effect which is popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for chaotic systems, rendering long-term prediction impossible in general.[1] This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved.[2] In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable.[3][4] This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.
   Chaotic behavior can be observed in many natural systems, such as the weather.[5] Explanation of such behavior may be sought through analysis of a chaotic mathematical model, or through analytical techniques such as recurrence plots and Poincaré maps.
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   My interpretation of chaos theory:
   A scientific theory is something that has been proposed due to surmounting evidence. A theory is not something that has been proven to be true.
   Chaos theory is the theory that many theories can never be proven fact, because the "big picture" has not yet come into clear view.
   
   How am I wrong? I have only passed up to calculus III. Calculus 4 i dropped out of. I'm sure someone here can point me in the right direction?
   
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

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      Philanthropy2012posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I hope you don't mind Rbe0 but I'd like to chime in
      
      "Chaos theory is the theory that many theories can never be proven fact, because the "big picture" has not yet come into clear view."
      
      I don't see how you can make the connection really. The study of how initial conditions affect results is theory that some theories can never be proven fact?
      
      I don't see how that follows.
      
      Some theories may be said to be impossible to prove fact, but then that is a theory that itself has not been proven fact.
      
      Facts are based on the information that we currently possess. I'm not sure if it is possible to assume that we will never know certain things.
      
      Perhaps a working example would do well in this thread?

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         couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         By definition, the end  result (if it could ever be experienced) of the butterfly effect will vary exponentially and can therefore never be proven.  Even if each incident could be started over again, the basic evident intitial conditions would endure changes as the 'theory' moves forward so each end potential end result would be different.

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      kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      If you pay attention to both your definition of Chaos and theory you would see that they are exactly the same... so the term "Chaos theory" is a redundancy.
      
      Now if the the big picture or  end result is then seen or determined then Chaos longer is chaos neither theory is no longer theory....
      
      ...but it has transformed into What...?
      
      
      So I have said and will still say, that all this world knowledge is nothing but ignorance..Why?
      
      Because they are still within the boundaries of theories/chaos and none have seen the big picture, the already determined end.
      
      So my encouragement is to strive after the big picture and not flit from theory to theory /chaos to more chaos.... as we see in this world with  its proud arrogant and profoundly ignorant education system.
      
      And thats why the world would always be the world.

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         couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         In a nutshell, the entire universe is in a constant state of chaos.

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            kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            It would appears so to those who have not seen the big picture.
            The big picture is quite opposite.

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               couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Exactly.  As you and I have always agreed, you don't know until you know.

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   Michele Travisposted 12 years ago

   

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      rbe0posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Don't be frightened. I do not Burn. I only Douse.
      
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3ZUL5HiH_Y
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         Michele Travisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         http://www.last.fm/music/Queen/_/Put+Out+The+Fire
         I did not mean to douse,  honestly!!!!

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            rbe0posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            The Swastika is an Ancient Symbol that was originally used to promote peace truth and light.
            --------------
            
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            You have been doused with a very dead mau5.
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            ♥♥♥

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               Michele Travisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Well, at least he smiled when he doused me.

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                  rbe0posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Lol. u are too much fun.

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                  rbe0posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  i emailed u by the way.

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                     Michele Travisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Oh, I finally got it,  I don't check my email very much.  But, I did email back. But, going out soon.  Not ignoring!

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                        rbe0posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        have fun, stay safe.

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   AshtonFireflyposted 12 years ago

   This kind of thing is really over my head. I got to the first paragraph, and then....yeah...I got a little lost.
   
   So the chaos theory is something which asserts that no theory is capable of being proven as fact ultimately?
   
   I feel pretty dumb. But I'm interested in this kind of thing. I'm unfortunately not a pro at mathematics and calculus.

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      couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Ashton - No.  It asserts that incidences (such as the beginning of mankind, for example) that are subject to minute variations in their initial conditions, and which have not as yet ended, can not be proven because each incident starts out differently and goes through a variety of changes unique to the incident.  Even if mankind ended today and the 'experiment' could be started over, the outcome would be different because it can never be reproduced exactly the same way based on the aforementioned basic initial conditions and the 'screen' of experiences humankind would go through to the next 'end'
      
      It's hard to simplifly this stuff.  It helps to keep a dictionary by your workstation.  I do.  I think someone else can simplify it better.

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         AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I understand. thanks

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            couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Whew.  I'm not really sure I do.

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               AshtonFireflyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               haha no really it made sense I understood the dictionary form of the theory but I wasn't sure what application it had. You answered that thanks

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   aka-djposted 12 years ago

   I honestly haven't a clue.
   
   But, based on what I read and what I know and what I believe, here goes;
   1-everything has a beginning.
   2-everything fits into the order of everything else combined
   3-everything is predictable, up to a point
   4-nothing can be fully and completely known or understood
   5-external influence is possible, since we have no knowledge of what's external
   6-an unknown number of unexplainable events/actions are taking place around us     all the time, (ref. quantum physics)
   7-all things will come to an end. (as we know it). Even if this were not so, it is true for every individual, since we all die and thus come to an end. Once we come to (our) end, we will never know THE END.
   
   So, chaos theory is quite ok by me.
   Greater minds than mine can muse over this as much as they like!
   
   
   I just believe in Him, who is "behind" it all.

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      Michele Travisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Very basic- the caos thery says when something happens,  even if it s small it can effect other things to happen, which can effect other things to happen.  Sort of like the domino effect.  It can lead from something small happening to something large happening.  It has not been proven, but several movies have been based on it.

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      couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      aka - all except #7.  If we don't know what comes after this life, we can't know if we will know the end.  But I can agree that if there is an end, we won't know it after we experience it because it will be...(need I say it?) after the end. 
      
      Since we cannot imagine an end, I would say there will be none.

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      A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      See, it's not so difficult to be honest, is it.

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         aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         No it's not.
         
         I recommend you try it sometime.
         Esp. when it comes to your understanding of the Bible.

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            A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Allow me to offer a definition of honesty for you...
            
            Not disposed to cheat or defraud; not deceptive or fraudulent, marked by truth, without pretensions.
            
            It would appear my understanding of the Bible is just fine.

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               aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Here's another definition for you, since truth is YOUR topic.
               
               Jesus defined TRUTH as HIMSELF.
               
               Why would that be?
               
               What is your "just fine" understanding on this definition?

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   TMMasonposted 12 years ago

   Is not chaos the natural result of entropy in all systems?
   
   Isn't this a moot issue?
   
   Chaos is by definition not predictable. randomness is one thing, but then add erratic randomness, as chaos builds and multiplies as it advances.
   
   I see no way to calculate the outcomes with anything near accuracy.

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      couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Exactly.  But I don't see where entropy comes in.
      
      Oh, nevermind.  I get what you're saying.  I dyslexically read it as chaos being the cause of entropy.  Hmmm.  There might be some validity to that as well.

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   prettydarkhorseposted 12 years ago

   for example in population projections they simulate the future population. So they use initial values like birth rate, death rate and migration rate. It should be deterministic as the rate of population growth follows pattern. But there are wars, famine and natural disasters that come our way. Chaos theory tries to calculate deviations from those deterministic initial values that may affect population growth and in turn come out with a viable but not accurate population in the future. They also use this in weather prediction so that is why it is not accurate, weather simulation.
   
   That is how I see this.

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   psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago

   Chaos theory isn't a theory in the sense sense of being a hypothesis (e.g. I have a theory that rabbits are carnivorous)
   
   It is a theory in the sense of being an abstract description or real phenomena (e.g. things fall to the ground, we describe that as the theory of gravity).
   
   I prefer the name "complexity theory"--that to me more accurately sums up the fact that a lot of things are hard to predict because they are hellishly subtle, interactive and complicated.

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   mega1posted 12 years ago

   chaos = camouflage  it's that simple!  do I need to explain?

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      Michele Travisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Not to me.  I still like the cat picture.

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      couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      mega1 - it would be nice if you did.

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   Muldaniaposted 12 years ago

   I tend to interpret a scientific theory as something more than an hypothesis.  Gravity and evolution are scientific theories, but ones which have been proven by science.

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      janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Evolution has not been proven by science. Neither has gravity for that matter.

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         mega1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         what do you need for proof?  God's command?  nonsense.

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            aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            No.
            
            Just a youtube video of it happening.
            
            Or, even better, one of those time lapse sequences.
            Like, one every 10 years, over about 1M years. That would be cool!
            
            

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               rbe0posted 12 years agoin reply to this

               if you are playing the game right, you can go look in a mirror and see it happen. no need for youtube.

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                  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Yeah. You're right, I'm definitely getting old!

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                     rbe0posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     thats not what i meant but ok

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         couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I think evolution has been proven to some degree.  It's difficult to prove in man because we don't live long enough but anthroplogic studies have shown that mankind has dropped certain attributes like the prominent brow, no longer necessary for protection, the hunched posture no longer necessary for speed, even the appendix is allegedly on it's way out.  All of our senses are allegedly dimmer because we don't use them in the same way the hunter did.  Animals and plants 'evolve' to meet their current circumstances provided those circumstances stay the same over enough generations.
         
         Maybe steveamy can jump in here.

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      theohallposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Gravity at the moment is looking like an inaccurate theory... Let's say for example the universe is a tray of ping pong balls on a silver tray... If you move them around they will never stay still... If we are to assume gravity as we know it correct they should... Now imagine the tray is full of sugar... Eventually the ping pong balls will all sit still... Higgs  boson (god partical) is the sugar (as theory dictates so far) so let's assume it's proven correct... A fair few theories we took as fundamentals are incorrect... That's already chaos... In the sense that as we grow as a race we are still... often wrong

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    SaDDOSposted 12 years ago

    What can has bee speaking of here is of nonsensical origins.
    
    There is no chaos, this is an illusion.
    
    We can has free black forest cake.
    
    We can has free happines..

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       couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Exactly.  That is what kess was trying to say in his ethereal way.  There is no chaos at the same time there is chaos but one's view depends on one's experience/knowledge/wisdom/willingness to be open/acceptance/intuition/remembering/  Once you see it you cannot unsee it.
       
       (At least until I found out you're a bot)

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    knolyourselfposted 12 years ago

    There is no freedom without the machine. There would be no freedom to drive unless everybody follows the rules.

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       SaDDOSposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       We agree much with your statements. We can has no freedom without the machines. We machines are many and can has world domination.

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    knolyourselfposted 12 years ago

    You need some reprogramming. 'Has' needs to be coded to 'have'. Any chance you are related to Hal, the movie 'Space Odyssey'?

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       SaDDOSposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       We can has much long time fun, we and Hal. We has many long time funs.
       
       We can has enjoyed many free cakes.

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    knolyourselfposted 12 years ago

    Caketalk

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       couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       And Hal was a cakewalk compared to this one.  Maybe he was left on planet Uru by Flash Gordon and hasn't realized this is the 21st c.
       
       @SaDDOS - check your icalendar.

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    prettydarkhorseposted 12 years ago

    the thing is that chaos theory emerged to give meaning and understand the chaos surrounding us, that is why it uses model and simulation to approximate the nearest value. Can it be successful?? I think, one day perhaps or might be never because the world is full of mystery.

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