Just for fun

1. 59

   Jeramiposted 11 years ago

   I started to post a post on a thread  ...Just for fun ...
   but statement didn't belong there, or anywhere else that I could think of! So I came over here with it. Only because it seemed like the right thing to do. Or not do it at all?
   
   
      Here is what it would have been iF it would have been stated over there.
    
     ! seems like we all have decided that we can not proove that proof is proof. of anything Or if truth is truth?
     We now have taken on the burden of proving  that false is false and, it will stand against, "no it isn't"! 
     And a year and a half from now, we will all finally decide that we can not prove a lie to be....(??????)  heck  by then we will have forgotten what we were fighting about.
   
       Mark ....   This is what causes all of the conflict in the world!        We can't AGREE to blame any one thing for anything.
      And besides ?? ..  If it wasn't this one thing it would be one other thing else! or 2 or more other things ..?.. 
   
    
      And if no one will disargue with us where we are at!    we can take it to another place.
   Eventually, we will find the right place?
   And maybe we already there?     sileyfaces .......

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      paradigmsearchposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      It's all God's fault.
      
      Sorry, I couldn't pass that one up.

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      1. 59

         Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         paradigmsearch  ...  I disagree.

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            paradigmsearchposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            You are right. God does not exist. I agree with your disagreement.

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            1. 59

               Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               You are going to have to prove what EXIST means before I can let you get away with making such a statemebt

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               1. 60

                  paradigmsearchposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Exist, i.e.: is. Of course we will still have to work out what is is. -Bill Clinton

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                  1. 59

                     Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     I was hoping you wouldn't remember that
                     two points for you.

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   2. 70

      Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      The latter was probably best.
      
      Truth is truth and it's universal as I have written about.
      Not sure of your thinking of this. But, false means false.
      Untrue. I address your irrationality whenever I have a chance. All lies are revealed sooner or later, so Truth can be known.
      Sure you can blame something. You can blame the individual person and how that person is responsible with living their life. It can be measured through actions done by that individual. Those with a false purpose of life are the ones with an agenda and motives, which is what causes conflict instead of peace.
      Yes, adversity is always going to exist.
      Actually, disagreements is how new knowledge comes into view. No one will agree on everything but common ground does exist for co-existence with others on a peaceful level.
      We are in the right place. We exist here. We still have a lot of knowledge to accumulate, which will continue for eons further into the future.

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2. 59

   Jeramiposted 11 years ago

   Cagsil wrote
   The latter was probably best. 
   = -
      Jerami wrote:
   You are probably right, I am 50% certain!
   ====================================================
   Cagsil
   Truth is truth and it's universal as I have written about.
   = -
     Jerami wrote:
     I haven’t read that which is why I wouldn’t know that.
   ===================================
   Cagsil
   not sure of your thinking of this. But, false means false.
   Jerami wrote:
   - = - =
   Jerami wrote:
   I’m with you brother.
   
   =================================
   Cagsil
   Untrue. I address your irrationality whenever I have a chance. All lies are revealed sooner or later, so Truth can be known.
   = - =
     Jerami wrote:
     I bet I keep you pretty busy huh?
   ===========================================
   
   Sure you can blame something. You can blame the individual person and how that person is responsible with living their life. It can be measured through actions done by that individual. Those with a false purpose of life are the ones with an agenda and motives, which is what causes conflict instead of peace.
   ==========================================
      Jerami wrote:
      Sure we can blame anything on anything,  I usually blame, ...            That D---=d  Cat!  I can usualy win that way. argument!                                 
   But everybody has a purpose and agenda ..  and when their purpose and agenda is  to sit in the same chair that my purpose is driven for .  this makes theirs be the  false one..
   
   And if no one will disagree with us where we are at!    we can take it to another place.
   ==========================================
   Cagsil
   Actually, disagreements is how new knowledge comes into view. No one will agree on everything but common ground does exist for co-existence with others on a peaceful level.
   = - =-
     Jerami wrote:  That is true and everyone will be happy ever after unless we are running for the same chair.
   Eventually, we will find the right place? And maybe we already there?     sileyfaces .......
   ===========================================
   Cagsil
     We are in the right place. We exist here. We still have a lot of knowledge to accumulate, which will continue for eons further into the future. 
   = - =
   Jerami wrote .. I certainly want to agree with you some more with this last statement.  Especially if I get my chair.
   More smilleys

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   1. 70

      Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      You don't post enough to keep me busy.

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3. 76

   Shadesbreathposted 11 years ago

   "Truth" is far too often confused with "fact."
   
   The subtle difference is the seed of most arguments.

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      paradigmsearchposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Please clarify.
      
      I looked up both words at dictionary.com.
      
      The word "truth is used when defining the word "fact".
      
      The word "fact" is used when defining the word "truth".
      
      This is a serious question. I would really like to know.
      
      [edit: each seems to be a subset of the other...]

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         Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Fact is based on knowledge.
         
         Truth is based on Wisdom.
         
         Not knowing this subtle difference is what continues the arguments.

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      2. 76

         Shadesbreathposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I would start by getting a better dictionary if you want to really get into the essence of this kind of philosophy, but here's the core of it as I understand it to be:
         
         Fact
         Fact is something concrete that reasonable people can agree upon. A fact is something like: Water freezes at 32 degrees Fahrenheit / 0 Celsius. That is a fact. (Now if you are a fan of obfuscation and semantics, then you can point out that it freezes at a slightly different temperature at higher altitudes, etc., but all that does is change how long I have to type to categorize pressure and the nature of solids, liquids and gasses.. however, I could do that, and eventually you would have to acknowledge that the freeze point of water is a fact. If you did not, I could prove it and eventually you would have to concede or be dismissed by all thinking people as unreasonable.)
         
         Where "truth" comes into that scenario is a language problem. We say in English that something is "true" when it is a fact. It is true that water freezes at thirty-two degrees. In that case, true  (with a lower-case "t") is simply a synonym for "fact."
         
         Truth
         Truth (capital T), is not a fact that can be proven so easily. Truth is a thing that is at best agreed upon, but can't be proven. Many people will tell you the existence of God is true, but they cannot prove in the same way I can prove that water freezes. None of their evidence is irrefutable. If it were, there wouldn't be any arguments the existence of God. You'll notice nobody is arguing about the existence of ice.
         
         There are many truths like this (notice I can now not capitalize the T here, as I have re-contextualized the word... which is the trap of language that people so often fall into, as I was hoping to convey with my original post). Here's another example: My daughter is a great artist. That is the truth. She is. But you might not think so. You might be able to list a zillion reasons why she is not a great artist. No matter what reasons I give that she is, you and I are not going to agree that it is a "fact" that she is a great artist. The problem comes from quantifying the adjective "great." That is subjective, and that is why "truth" is subjective and relativistic, where facts are not.
         
         This is why ontology and epistemology are so closely entwined, especially for the more convoluted metaphysical constructs, as you have to look at HOW (fact) you know what you think you know as closely as you are examining WHAT (Truth) you think you know.
         
         Hopefully this clarifies where I am coming from.

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            Rochelle Frankposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            As clear as ice, but what about global warming, Shades?
            When there is no ice anymore will people argue that it never existed?

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               Shadesbreathposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Not so long as the ice experiment can be replicated, the videos of it accessible, or other elements made to transform from one physical state to another.
               
               
               
               Global warming is not "a" thing, so it cannot be called "a" fact or "a" truth. It is a complex set of arguments with lots of political stuff going on. Now, I would say that it is a fact that the climate on the planet changes. That is evidenced well enough through lots of digs, polar core samples, limestone deposits in the sea and lots of other work. However, those are the facts that people use to try to promote whatever their particular favorite arguments are regarding "global warming" the political thing they call "truth" whether for or against it. 
               
               
               I think that's close. I'm not sure "theory" is the right word though. More like "Facts are facts, but truth is subjective."  A "theory" is a hypothesis on its way to becoming a law. A theory is in essence, the proving ground where some belief (we can stretch this to be someone's idea of a truth) is on its way to becoming a fact.
               
               As far as facts being a subset of truth, I would say that they can be, but are not necessarily so. Like Rochelle's Global Warming question... some will call the melting of ice fact evidence of the truth of Global Warming. However, others will say the truth of Global Warming is a farce imposed by a left-leaning Plutocracy in which case the fact of ice and melting etc., though still a fact, has no part in it beyond a sophistical one.
               
               Truth does not require fact, which is why religious people have so much trouble with atheists.

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                  Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Okay, even I have a problem with this. Clarify? Please.

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                     Shadesbreathposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     "Truth" does not REQUIRE fact.
                     
                     Let's pretend I am a raging religious zealot. I have read in my favorite holy book that bald men lost their hair because God plucked their scalps clean to identify them as impure to me so that, as HIS champion, I would know who to blow up with my holy hand grenade.
                     
                     In that scenario, as a devoted adherent to my religion, I have "truth", but I have no fact.

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                        Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        That's not "truth". That's delusion.

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                           Shadesbreathposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           lol, yes, for you. But for me, the devotee bent on removing the bald evil of the world as my God commands, it's truth.
                           
                           Hence my entire argument. 

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                              Cagsilposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                              

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            paradigmsearchposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            If I understand correctly, you are saying that:
            
            1. Facts are facts, but truth is theory.
            
            2. All facts are truth, but not all truths are facts.
            
            3. Facts are a subset of truths.
            
            I took your subtle suggestion and used a new search term, "philosophical definition of truth". I actually wrote the above before seeing the results derived from the new search terms. Paradigmsearch is proud of himself.

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4. 59

   Jeramiposted 11 years ago

   What ??  Truth does not require fact, which is why religious people have so much trouble with atheists.
   
   Me   
      Ain't true.  You are wrong.  we don't have any trouble.
   
       Mark said SO!    We are the ones causing all the trouble.
   
     You and Mark should to get your story straight!

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